Fears about Kerry, and remembering the tactics of the past.

[Meldread]

EDITED: This is not a bash against Kerry and Clark should probably be included with this as well.

We all know what a slime ball Rove is. He'll do anything to win. He'll manipulate any fact, he'll lie, he'll cheat, he'll steal... hell if he had too the man would probably kill.

So many believe that Kerry, including Kerry himself, can stand up to Bush on issues of National Security and Foreign Policy. Kerry's slogan "bring it on"... he may get more than he bargains for.

Many believe that Kerry's war record in Vietnam creates some sort of cushion or bullet proof vest against Rovian attacks. However, to those people I have two words for you: Max Cleland.

Who remembers what happened to Cleland? If not let me refresh your memories:

---snip---
In 1968, he lost his right arm and both legs in Vietnam. Last fall, he lost his Senate seat in a campaign that became a symbol of nasty politics.

Cleland, 60, is still livid over a now-infamous TV commercial that Republican challenger Saxby Chambliss ran against him. It opened with pictures of Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein, then attacked Cleland for voting against President Bush's Homeland Security bill. It didn't mention that Cleland supported a Democratic bill that wasn't radically different.

"That was the biggest lie in America -- to put me up there with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and say I voted against homeland security!" he says, his voice rising in anger.

"I volunteered 35 years ago to go to Vietnam and the guy I was running against got out of going to Vietnam with a trick knee! I was an author of the homeland security bill, for goodness' sake! But I wasn't a rubber stamp for the White House. That right there is the epitome of what's wrong with American politics today!"
---end snip---

Read the rest here: http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Max_Cleland_070303.htm

Now we all know Kerry came back from Vietnam and protested the war. We're already starting to hear a small rumbling about that. However, here is a man who actually *LOST* an arm and two legs!

We know the General Election is going to get ugly. Really, really, ugly no matter who wins. What will happen if Kerry is attacked like this?

Rove is unforgiving. I'm worried, and I think this should be a reminder that the guys we are up against play by a whole different set of rules. They have no morals and no boundaries. I do not think Kerry should be given the mythical status of "untouchable" because he is a Veteran -- nor should Clark.

No matter who wins the nomination they are fair game for Rove, and he will proceed to rip them apart. My fear is how Kerry will respond to that and how it will effect him. He has built so much on his being a veteran.

[OneBlueSky]

1. no one will ever convince me that Cleland lost that election . . .

fair and square . . . I believe that the electronic voting machines were manipulated to insure the loss of his seat . . . and it really worries me that it could -- and likely will -- happen again . . . if Bush needs a close state to win the election, and if there are still no auditable paper trails to check the electronic voting, I have no doubt that the same tactics will be used to get him re-selected . . . if the voting machines are all owned and operated by Republican donors, and if there's absolutely no way to get caught, why wouldn't they cheat? . . . because they're fine, upstanding, and honest individuals who play by the rules? . . . I don't think so . . .

[Dover]

10. Yes, that is always the elephant in the room, when reflecting on

strategies that have worked or failed for Dems. How many important elections were manipulated?

And has the E-voting issue been fixed by Dems or Reps since 2000? Don't look now, but I think that ELEPHANT is still in the room.

[Southsideirish]

17. Republicans waged vile campaign against him - as they did McCain

one of their own who was trying to take down their annointed Prince.

[LBJBestEver]

2. Please stop bashing Kerry <nm>

[Meldread]

5. I'm not bashing Kerry.

I'm simply pointing out the type of Rovian attacks that could (and probably will) be used against him. In fact, it isn't even limited to Kerry -- it goes for all of our Candidates. The only reason I singled out Kerry (and I probably should have included Clark as well) was because so many people think that because they are Veterans that makes them untouchable. I just wanted to point out how low the Republicans can (and most likely will) go.

On top of that Kerry is leading against Bush in the polls. We are already starting to hear rumblings about his protesting the war after he came back. (Which is being spun as: "Kerry hates Veterans, Kerry hates the Military." Etc.)

I am worried. You should be too.

[LBJBestEver]

7. Please stop bashing Kerry <nm>

[Meldread]

8. ...

Well I suppose all I can say to that is, if you think that is bashing, you are going to weep with sorrow and writhe in agony when Rove gets a hold of him.

[blm]

3. Big difference. Sniper story covered up the Cleland campaign story.

Most of the country hasn't even heard what happened to Cleland.

Cleland is hitting every vet group around the country and telling them what happened while campaigning for Kerry. You watch how many vets switch from Repub to Dem by November.

It's BIG. What you saw in Iowa was greatly due to those meetings with vets.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

4. Being a war hero probably translates better than skiing in Aspen

Just slightly.

[Meldread]

6. Actually.

Well first off let me say that wasn't a bash against Kerry.

Second I don't think Dean's getting out of Vietnam will be as big of an issue. Mainly because it's already out in the open and he's discussing it. Second of all he isn't seen as a "war hero". Third I'm pretty sure if Rove tried to pull that card Dean would be all over him like a dog with a bone.

I'm just worried how Kerry would respond. IMO I would want him to get fired up and shoot back in anger. I would want him to enrage the American public. However, I just don't see him doing that. I'm also concerned that people may be voting for Kerry or Clark simply BECAUSE of their Military backgrounds, and they believe that will make them stronger against Bush. So therefore I simply wanted to point out that Rove has no morals, no boundaries, and is a cold hearted slime ball that will do anything to win.

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

9. Don't worry - Kerry would respond as an adult

He is not one to drop nuts and start screaming.

He has the temperament to deal with Rove.

[Meldread]

14. ...

You know, you are walking on thin ice. It isn't like I mentioned the fact that Kerry voted for us to go to war in Iraq, then flip flopped after it wasn't popular. Or how he supported the Patriot Act, but then after it wasn't popular he flip flopped. Or how he wants to repeal part of the Bush Tax Cut even though he voted for it. Or even the less talked about Anti-Abortion Vote. I'm not even mentioning how he's had to practically steal Dean's stances -- as if he couldn't run on his own -- to gain the momentum he needed. Nor am I voicing my concern over the fact if he wins the nomination he'll flip flop back to Bush-lite, losing the balls Howard Dean helped give him.

But then again... I guess I just did.

[blm]

16. He didn't vote for Bush's taxcut. He is the only candidate to declare

he would ONLY appoint prochoice judges.

He was attacking Bush LONG before Dean, and if you read the Conason article I posted for you from 2002 you would KNOW that.

[zoeyfong]

18. dole lost to clinton

so apparently the war hero thing didn't translate better than tokin' in oxford, or whatever clinton was doing during vietnam. The war hero thing is not going to get a single republican vote. it *may* get some independents, but kerry's pro-war vote will lose liberals.

[mb7588a]

11. I bet we have guys on our

side who can go toe-to-toe with the Rovebots in any shit flinging contest. I have no fear. It's not about their attacks on our guy, it's about HOW FUCKING WORTHLESS THEIR GUY IS. It seems we often forget that in this forum.

Anything that gets thrown at one of our guys by the Rovebots can be matched by throwing 18 things wrong with the Bush admin. right back at them. Don't buy into this culture of fear that the Rovebots put over everything in politics today.

[sandnsea]

12. Got guts?

Maybe that should be our bumper sticker. They won't win if we don't let them. Kerry has taken this on his whole life and I just saw him take on Novak on Friday. He did fine. If we have guts, we can shut this Rove machine down once and for all. This is our chance to stand up for every slanderous thing they've thrown at the Democratic party since Vietnam. We either do it now or die a quiet death. That's the way I see it.

[buckeye1]

13. I agree.

The Sharpton/Dean ticket can avoid all that. Great idea,pass it on.

[Meldread]

15. Actually...

I was talking to my parents the other day. I was thinking Clark would make a nice VP for Dean, but they said they wanted Clark to be the Secretary of State. The more I thought of it the more I liked that idea -- we've gotta get rid of Powell after all he's done.

I've always wondered where Sharpton would fit in the White House, and I've decided Press Secretary would be best. I like listening to Sharpton talk. I like his whit and sense of humor. I was thinking maybe Bob Graham should be Dean's VP. He can bring us FL with no problem, and can help in the south. Plus he helps balance the scale of Dean's supposed "uber liberalness", when he has clearly stated that he works from the center like Clinton. On top of that Graham brings Foreign Policy experience, and can weigh in heavily against Bush.