The War On Terror is Unwinnable

[Disturbed]

In the first place it is a silly notion. Re-framing it as a War On Islamic Extremists is accurate. That war is unwinnable. The estimate is that there are around 40K hard core members scattered around the globe, called AQ but they are not a centrally controlled group. There are various cells. Then there are prolly around 100K supporters that aid and assist.

Amerika and it's allies will not be able to stop terrorist attacks. A Military solution is definetly not the answer. A criminal investigation and hunt although a better method won't stop attacks either.

Political, social and economic methods may have a better chance at lowering the attacks. I am not an expert in this field. Even experts disagree on methods and those methods would take a book full of ideas. I am merely expressing my frustration at the way the situation is being dealt with now.

[Wetzelbill]

1. Bin Laden in particular has stated goals

He's got Bush-like discipline in repeating them too. The gist of it is they would like us to be objective in the Arabic-Israeli conflicts, to not support and finance the Israeli occupation of Palestine, to not support apostate, oil-rich regimes that repress their own people. That's sort of the quick version of it, but basically they would like us to leave them alone. It's key to understand that bin Laden believes he is fighting a defensive jihad, not an offensive one. He feels that there is a genuine attack on Islam, and, if you look at it from a Muslim POV, he does have some viable points. None of which excuse heinous acts such as 9-11 or what happened in London yesterday.

[Raoul Duke II]

2. More than that...

Osama's goals include the total eradication of Israel.

And he'd like to see all regimes in the Middle East Talibanized/radicalized.

Then you'd just get more and worse repression, no?

[Wetzelbill]

5. He wouldn't mind having a Taliban-like Caliphate

He doesn't really come out and say it though. So I can't say for sure if it is a stated goal. To some extremists it definitely is, however, I think Osama is much more pragmatic and rationale than that. What he does want is a viable Islamic state, which would be in his estimation, Afghanistan, which Islamists have a special affection for.

Hamas has called for the total eradication of Israel. I don't believe bin Laden has. I'm racking my brain for that, but I'd have to read Michael Scheuer's book again, and revisit Osama's speeches, to validate that and I don't have time to do so right now. What is clear, is that bin Laden does want to end the Israeli occupation of Palestine. Whether he means by total eradication, I don't know, but it would be out of character for OBL to have a goal that is absolutely unreachable like that. So I don't know, you may be right, but I'd be inclined to think that bin Laden wouldn't have such a foolish goal. Hamas has though. But, they're a different organization altogether. Not that they don't have ties though. The Middle East is a small place.

[Raoul Duke II]

19. Well...

What he does want is a viable Islamic state, which would be in his estimation, Afghanistan, which Islamists have a special affection for.


But he had Afghanistan before 9/11! Why attack us then?

[HawkerHurricane]

21. Because we were/are proping up the House of Saud

in addition to Isreal.

In fact, every repressive not Muslim enough regime except Libya and Syria can be said to be propped up by America. (Iran doesn't count, they're the *wrong* type of Muslims).

He didn't attack us because we are freedom loving... he attacked us because our foriegn policy supported his enemies.

[geek tragedy]

37. His enemies include liberals, homosexuals, modernists, reformists, Jews

Christians, atheists, apostates, and various assorted other infidels.

[Wetzelbill]

22. read my first post again

It's a whole set of reasons. Not just because he would like to have a Caliphate or an Islamic state. He's fighting a defensive jihad against us, not what would be considered an offensive one. He's clear on that. Quit supporting apostate, repressive oil-rich regimes. Be objective in the Arabic-Israeli conflict. He's not fighting a fight to take over the world or anything like that. It's not imperial. It's defensive, from his point of view. Basically, he'd like us to stay out of their business. It goes back to the overthrow of Mohammed Mossdeq in Iran and the installation Shah Reza Pahlavi in 1953. We get involved in that region for our own economic reasons and selfishly repress Arabic and Muslim people. That's his POV. He sees things like Muslims in Bosnia not being allowed to have their own state, but Christians in Croatia can. He see that the U.S. will invade an oil-rich client regime, such as Kuwait, but yet allows Russia to indiscriminately bomb and attack Chechnya. It pisses Muslims off. He's not all right, of course, but he does have clear reasons for committing terrorist acts. Which in essence and from an anthropological view, is a term that really has no valid meaning. Not in the context it is used. Look at terror as political or politically-inspired violence. Bin Laden don't just blow up shit just to blow it up. It's not random. It's a has political motives. Sure, it's heinous and inexcusable, but he has a method to his madness. It isn't some crazy far-fetched goal, but genuine valid ones. That's what makes him so formidable. Does this help clear things up?

[HysteryDiagnosis]

8. You forgot the part about "our freedom". Amazing statement, eh?

[Clark2008]

15. The Bushes and the bin Ladens...

The new and more evil Hatfields and McCoys or Capulets and Montagues.

[yowzayowzayowza]

3. Of course it is.

A war on a tactic is idiotic and misguided. As long as there are desperate people there will be terrorism. Short of genocide, there is no military solution to terrorism.

[Wetzelbill]

4. yeah and it's a rhetorical war too. Like The War On Poverty or

The War On Drugs. You can't fight something rhetorical, it needs to be concrete, with a viable goal and solution. It has to have a beginning, middle and end. Whereas a rhetorical war only has a beginning.

[Disturbed]

6. At one time the Shrub said that..

the War On Terror cannot be won. Then a day later he reversed his statement. His bosses must've got on his case, so he quickly changed the truth to tell another lie.

[Wetzelbill]

7. yeah, he went off the reservation, he isn't supposed to actually

say stuff they didn't tell him to say. He's usually tightly monitored. That's why when they let him wing it a bit, he comes up with "Bring 'em on" and shit like that. It's also why hardly has any press conferences. Did you see when he couldn't come up with any mistakes that he made? The wheels were turning but they just couldn't catch on anything. He's completely made over. A total empty suit.

[MN ChimpH8R]

31. Exactly

Zbigniew Brzezinski, of all people, said that the WW II equivalent of declaring "war" on terrorism would have been to declare war on the tactic of blitzkrieg rather than on Nazi Germany.

There is no way to prevent terrorism. Read that again. If ten disaffected nuts meet up and secretly decide to plant bombs in the transit system of a major city there is no way to prevent or detect that. And if someone is willing to be a suicide bomber, there is no way to prevent that, either.

And any group of Islamic fundamentalist crazies can decide to call themselves Al Qaeda, but that doesn't make them operatives of bin Laden. Al Qaeda is now a brand name. Sun Tzu said that an opponent must be understood before he can be defeated. But figuring all of this out requires calm and logic. These are, of course, two things no neo-con, Fweeper or Bushitlerite has ever possessed, nor will they ever.

:eyes: :banghead:

[Wetzelbill]

41. al-qaeda isn't necessarily a brand name

It is in the sense that Bush and Co. use it. However, Al-Qaeda is a complex organization, and now it has expanded to over 70 countries and become highly decentralized. Bin Laden still wields lots of power and influence. He and Ayman Zawahiri have set up an elaborate system of communication and funding, so he still does his thing.

[lapfog_1]

9. Let me take a stab at the problem...

This isn't the first group of hardcore terrorists to operate against
the "Empire of the West", there have been many others... this
one is likely the most committed, undoubtedly the best funded, and
the largest.

First off, it's not a military problem, it's a law enforcement issue.
There will always be this generation of terrorists, and the best way
to see that they do no harm is to infiltrate, gather evidence,
arrest, prosecute, and hopefully jail the culprits. In any given
cell, there is probably only a few leaders, get them and the rest
are either ineffective or they dissipate.

The next thing to get the Fundamentalist Islamic countries,
specifically Saudi Arabia, to stop funding Wahahbi madrases where
they teach nothing but the Koran and Islamic law. More important
than not teaching hatred of the US or Israel is that the schools
actually SHOULD teach life skills for doing work (having a career
or a goal) in our technological world. Then, start reforms in
the ME to encourage the formation of a professional and a middle
class ( you know, what the Bushies are trying to destroy here too).

Do this, or encourage the Islamic nations to do this (in no
uncertain terms), and you remove the recruiting grounds for the
terrorists. Idle hands being the devils playground and all that.

Next, we need to remove our troops from both Iraq and, more
importantly, Saudi Arabia. This is one of the "pillars" that
the terrorists point to in order to recruit new members. The other
pillar is Israel... that's possibly the hardest thing to solve.
But if we are seen to be attempting a solution it would go a long
ways to removing it as a motivation.

And then there is a role for the military. If a nation can be
proved to be a state sponsor of terrorist organizations that have
actually conducted operations in the US (like Afghanistan has been),
I don't have a problem with using overwhelming force to effect
a regime change, even to a puppet government until there is
political reform and elections and stuff.

Oh, and last but not least....

QUIT BUYING THEIR GODDAM OIL!

No matter how expensive this is or how hard it might be, we just
gotta do it...

[Wetzelbill]

10. I'd like to associate myself with your remarks and add that...

it requires a group of policy changes too. Law enforcement, modernization, moving our troops out, using our military for state-terrorism and policy. Policy means a variety of different things. Ending our support of oil-rich apostate regimes, being an objective arbiter in the Palestinian-Israeli peace process, etc.

The quit buying their goddamn oil, although not a technical term, would fall under my interpretation of policy. That would of course include an alternative energy resource plan.

[Disturbed]

11. Off topic a bit yet...

I don't feel that AQ is trying to destroy Amerika,any western country or even Saudi Arabia, although they would love to topple the Saudi Royals. If AQ was really trying to do that they would destroy Saudi oil fields.

[Wetzelbill]

25. no he isn't and he never said he was....

not the Western countries anyway. British journalist Robert Fisk has met him, stayed up in the mountains with him for an interview and has done several pieces on him and he says that bin Laden has a very limited view of the world. He doesn't know anything about the U.S. Constitution, nothing about globalization or so on. He doesn't really care. He has no desire to destroy us, because he knows he couldn't. What he does know is that if you fight long enough, then maybe you can start making headway on your goals. And that's what he's trying to do. Accomplish certain viable goals. Such as getting the U.S. to be objective in the Israeli-Arabic conflict and to quit supported oil-rich clients who repress their own people.

[geek tragedy]

36. Osama bin Laden does not share your values or goals.

He does not want US objectivity regarding Israel. He wants to wipe Israel and every single Jew living there off the face of the earth.

He wants to purge the entire Muslim world of modernity and Western influence. The first step to that is to eliminate as much interaction between the US and the Muslim world. No more American films, clothes, sexual attitudes, etc etc. After that, his plan is to Talibanize the Muslim world by purging the secular Muslims, those who believe in things like gay rights and women's rights, etc.

The man is a theocratic visionary, not some policy wonk who merely wants the US to do the right thing.

[Wetzelbill]

39. in a way you're right

He isn't a policy wonk, no. But, he does have specific goals. He doesn't want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. Not necessarily. He does want them to quit occupying Gaza and the West Bank. He does want them to quit suppressing the Palestinian people. He doesn't want the U.S. to arm Israel and support this occupation. And, he does too, want the U.S. to be objective. Don't believe me, just read his words. He says it all the time. I'm not giving an opinion on my values or goals. I'm stating OBL's stated goals. You can speculate on whether he wants a monolithic Caliphate all you want, but he's never really advocated that, other than he would like a theocratic state. That's why Afghanistan is important to him, that was their theocratic state. Osama isn't really imperial. It's not like he's trying to conquer the whole world. He's basically fighting a defensive jihad against the U.S. so we'll leave Islam alone. That means quit supporting Israel's occupation of Palestine and quit supporting apostate, oil-rich regimes that repress their own people. I wouldn't call him a theocratic visionary in the sense that he is envisions a monolithic theocracy, however, he is very religious and believes passionately in fighing a defensive jihad against, what he percieves are, Islam's attackers.

[geek tragedy]

43. Have you read a single one of his statements? Here's one for you:

You're obviously much more sympathetic to AQ and bin Laden than I am. Perhaps his own words will change your mind:




In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory"

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan." Quran 4 6]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you?

The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years.

The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel.

The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily. (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history.

The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon. (c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question: Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all. It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object. Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws. What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise."

The Nation of honour and respect: "But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers."

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers"

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life: "Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers."

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised: "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." >

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty."

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance. If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace.

If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy. This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

[Wetzelbill]

44. I read them all the time, I have read this before

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel,
5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands
(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.


That's what I've been saying. Where in this does he contradict me? I'm not following you now. I tell you that, yes, in a way you are right, however it isn't necessarily imperial. He does say a few imperial sounding things, and yes he wouldn't mind having a Caliphate, but that isn't necessarily what he wants. He isn't looking for an all or nothing approach here. He's rallying the troops with anti-semitic and anti-american rhetoric, then after he does that he lists his demands. Is this the only bin Laden statement that you've read? Because if so, you need to read more and you'll get where I'm coming from. But, you showing me this just proves what I was saying.

I'm not sympathetic to bin Laden at all. Not in any way. I just know alot about this stuff from years of hard work studying it. And, his has a perfectly rationale agenda here. It isn't random and picked out of the blue. He wants to accomplish something. That's what makes him so good and so dangerous. I get where your coming from, I basically agree with you. Sympathy has nothing to do with it. I'm just interested in terrorism -well, obsessed with it - and all of the causes, actions and strategies of it. I wish we'd get the fucker, if you want to know the truth. I don't know, read "Imperial Hubris" by Anonymous aka Michael Scheuer. Maybe he can explain it to you better than I can, because we're missing something here.

[geek tragedy]

51. He wants us to stop supporting Israel, so that he and his ilk

can accomplish their stated goal of pushing the Jews into the sea. That's right in that letter.

He also says explicitly that his struggle against the secular, apostate governments in the Muslim world is intertwined with his struggle against us. There is no doubt that having driven Western culture and influence out of the Arab world (which isn't his call to make) he'd then purge the moderates. Liberals and women rights' activists would be the new targets of his goons.

[Wright Patman]

13. "The next thing

to get the Fundamentalist Islamic countries,
specifically Saudi Arabia, to stop funding Wahahbi madrases where they teach nothing but the Koran and Islamic law."

In fairness, I think it would be necessary to get rid of all the "Christian" schools which teach that Islam is a demonic force which must be eradicated before you go over there and dismantle their schools

[Raoul Duke II]

16. Well...

How many Christians are blowing up themselves and others after being
brainwashed/inspired by these schools?

[yowzayowzayowza]

17. Who is ...

Eric Robert Rudolph?

ChristoTerrorists for $666, Alex.

[Wetzelbill]

20. none, but they do use terror tactics

Eric Rudolph for example, is a christian fundamentalist who bombed the Olympics in Atlanta and abortion clinics. In Florida, they executed a fundamentalist abortion clinic bomber. McVeigh, as a radical right-winger, could be put into this category too.

The thing is, most suicide bombers don't blow themselves up because of their religion. Recent studies have suggested that they do it out of anger, mainly due to repression or a harsh occupation.

Our fundie schools in the states teach a xenophobic type of intolerance, that could lead to violence, but here in the U.S. we aren't repressed like people in poor Muslim countries are. So instead of becoming suicide bomber, our fundies turn into James Dobsons. Just as dangerous but in a different way. Plus, our fundies openly advocate aggressive Zionism and the occupation of Palestine. If you get a chance look at the "Left Behind" book series. It's about the end of the world. It's the Christian Fundie whackfest of their lifetime. They love that stuff. It's violent gory and hateful. A very, "you're either with us or against us" type of thing. Interestingly enough, U.S. Christian fundamentalists -some not all - openly praise Yigal Amir's assassination of Yitzhak Rabin in 1995. They think it was justified because he was going against God's will by engaging in the peace process with the Palestinians and signing the Oslo Accord. We got some pretty bonkers people in our country and they have more influence then most people think. The own the whore in the WH.

[Wright Patman]

26. Investigate the U.S. Air Force Academy

located in that "Mecca" of Christian extremism, Colorado Springs, Colorado, and its evolution into a Christian version of a madrassa.

The "Christians" piloting the USAF fighters and bombers have killed way more civilians than the Islamics.

The only difference is that our "Christians" are committing state-sanctioned murders and not just doing it at the direction of some cleric.

So I guess that makes it all right. :sarcasm:

[CWebster]

29. doctors who perform abortions

have been in their sights, though.

[cleveramerican]

12. terror is a tactic

terrorism is a tactic like ambush, you would never declare war on ambush.
the more we react to it, the more it disrupts our daily routines, the more it works.The more it works the greater the likelihood the next group with an ax to grind will pick it up AND USE IT BECAUSE IT WORKS SO WELL.


THERE IS NO MAGIC LEVER TO PUSH TO MAKE IT ALL GO AWAY.
YOU'VE GOT TO PUSH ON THEM ALL A LITTLE.

[teryang]

14. This is state terror not terrorism

International terrorism is sponsored by sovereign states. In the past states such as Iran and Syria sponsored their own proxy terror groups inside Lebanon and what is now Israel. Sometimes they strike in other countries.

The trend in modern terrorism is modeled from the creation of an international network of agents into a quasi institution which is sponsored by various states to accomplish unethical and unacceptable political and economic goals. The model for this is BCCI which was a bank which was promoted by various states in a quasi consortium to accomplish unlawful ends including supporting terrorism.

What is called al qaeda is a similar international operation which is manipulated by Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and the United States. International terrorists cannot operate without the backing of the intelligence and security agencies of sponsoring states.

[HawkerHurricane]

24. Says who?

That's the PNAC point of view, that a non-state sponsered group couldn't be terrorists by themselves, they have to have a sponser, thus the invasion of Iraq... (now who was the crazy lady who kept on claiming, in spite of the total lack of evidence, that not only was the first WTC attack sponsered by Iraq, but also the Oklahoma City bombing? She's a patron saint to the PNACers.)

[Wetzelbill]

27. Laurie Mylroie of the American Enterprise Institute

[teryang]

38. Don't think that PNAC view agrees with mine

That the international terrorism alleged to be al qaeda is actually the product of the cooperation of the intelligence agencies of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United States.

Also the view that terrorism receives sponsorship from the intelligence agencies of sponsoring states was taken as a truism in intelligence communities for decades, long before anyone even heard of PNAC. I first learned of the structural relationships between Iraq, Iran and Syria and their proxy groups in the middle east in official US government publications in the seventies. Their power projection capabilities were extremely limited and restricted to the local region. The Iran, Iraq, Syria proxy groups never acquired the reach or impact of BCCI or the current purported al qaeda operation. These levels of power projection capability, with the organizational support required can only be supported by state agency cooperation and sponsorship.

[HawkerHurricane]

42. Actually...

The NeoCon/PNAC view was that the intell services of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Libya were working together to support anti Isreali terrorism (and later Al Queda). Not because they had evidence or anything, but because they really wanted to overthrow those dictators (and put more pro American dictators in).

Did you read Richard Clarke's book? The nation's top anti terrorism guy talks on how AlQueda was NOT state sponsered... and the idea that all terrorists must have a state sponser was silly.

[teryang]

45. No but I was an intelligence officer myself

...and Richard Clarke has a lot of ass covering to do considering the poor job he has done.

[HawkerHurricane]

53. Are we talking about the same Richard Clarke?

You know, the man who QUIT because the BushCo White House wouldn't let him do his job? The one who publicly revealed how the day after 9/11 PNAC was looking for a way to link AlQueda with some intelligence agency (but especially Iraq) as a excuse to go to war?

Who do you believe, Richard Clarke or Richard Perle?

[Wetzelbill]

46. no credible terrorism expert believes state sponsorship exists in a major

way now. But you do have links. So you guys are both right to a degree. Intelligence agencies are filled with infiltrators. Pakistan's ISID is closely linked with the Taliban, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Pakistan is a state-sponsor of terror. Some state agencies do have complicity in terror actions, but as a whole, state-sponsorship is not really existent anymore. It's an archaic way of fighting, because everything has become decentralized now.

[teryang]

48. Right and intelligence agencies don't traffic in arms or dope

...either because its "archaic." I hear prostitution is going out of business as well.

[Wetzelbill]

49. WTF, does that mean?

I just agreed with you that intelligence from certain countries are involved in terrorism. There really aren't any state-terror sponsors anymore. Name one. The closest that you have may be Iran, but they aren't a pure terrorist sponsor. The Saudis aren't. They have elements in the government that do, sure, but the Royal family doesn't. They are a target if anything. They have been known to pay terrorists off to save their own necks, sure. State terror is an archaic notion, especially the way it was put together as an argument going into Iraq. It's a simple and wrong answer to a complex problem. Is there a state terrorist sponsor for Al-qaeda? They have spread to over 70 countries, so does that make them all a state sponsor? Al-qaeda exists in Great Britain, so are you going to tell me that Tony Blair and MI6 are state sponsors of terror? Don't get snide about it. You didn't add anything to the discussion just now, you just got smart with me. What you said doesn't even have any correlation to what I mentioned, or what you mentioned either. The bottom line is no expert in terrorism would say state terror is a major problem now, you'd never hear Steve Simon, Cofer Black, Michael Scheurer or anybody credible say that. About the only people that will mention that concept are from the American Enterprise Institute, people like Richard Perle, Laurie Mylroie or Michael Ledeen. So yeah, you go ahead and believe state-terrorism isn't archaic. I agree with you and you make a point to be a dick to me. Thanks a lot.

[Wetzelbill]

50. you know, Teryang, I was pissed off when I wrote this

you kind of jerked my chain a little with your comments. We haven't gotten uncivil yet, maybe a little heated, I hope we can continue this without it escalating. I actually don't think we are disagreeing all that much. I think we just have a different definition of what state terror is. But anyway, go ahead and do your thing, I look forward to reading it.

[teryang]

55. No problem

I think that the perceptual problem here is that no one can conceive that it is we who are the problem. We supported so called "al qaeda" We promoted their operations not only in Afghanistan but in the transcausas, and the Balkans. Our policy is balkanization and the creation of failed states in order to facilitate the projection of American military power and neo-colonization policies.

Tell me now that the United States intelligence agencies are not now the sponsors of MEK terrorist acts in Iran. Does anyone seriously doubt that Pakistan is one of the principal terrorism sponsors and nuclear weapons proliferators in the world. We reward them with huge military aid packages and ignore their activities for strategic reasons. The CIA and the ISI are very close.

Even Lorreta Napoleoni, a real terrorism expert, (and not a politician like Clarke who has to dissociate himself from gross security failures and coverups by the administration he served), acknowledges that the Saudi Royal family does support terrorism abroad, including bin Ladin and that we cover their tracks. This is why no serious effort is made to catch him. She also notes that our banking, defense and oil sectors profit immensely from terrorism and are not particular about which state sponsors, such as Pakistan, Sudan, and Saudi Arabia they do business with. These interests are our current administration. Money from drug and arms trafficking in failed states is laundered in American banks. Massive arms sales and foreign aid go to the sponsors. The energy sector seeks to profit by entering markets previously under effective sovereign control.

It's ironic that anyone who disagrees with the media version revisionist or otherwise concerning "terrorism" is labeled as belonging to the ideological school of neo-cons. In my case nothing could be further from the truth. Clark is the media version.

Why is it that the anthrax "terrorists" were never found? Why is it that the 911 investigation is little more than a flimsy coverup? Why is it that leads before 911 were ignored? What is it that the individuals who obstructed those leads were promoted instead of castigated? Why is it we don't know who profited from unusual put options invested in companies severely damaged by 911?

Is is difficult to understand the opaque world of terrorism when you are seeking to uncover your enemies abroad. The cloak of secrecy is even greater when one seeks to find the connections to our own country's secret operations and those of our allies. You have to put it together yourself, no one is going to place themselves on report by saying, "here I am, I am dirty dealer, murderer and traitor for political gain."

[leftofthedial]

18. and also un lose-able

The "terrorist" is the energizer bunny of boogeymen--just goes on and on and on ...

endless "war" to justify all sorts of abuse and corruption

[Wetzelbill]

28. perpetual war for perpetual peace

You fight theater war and use the military for constabulary duties. All the while promoting American interests and ideals. Think Afghanistan. Think Iraq. Think the bully of Syria and Iran. Who's next in the theater? We're still looking. But Iraq is so fucked up that we'll never get to another one. Well, I take that back, Dick Cheney is a highly irrational person. Look for us to get our proxy, Israel, to do some dirty work for us. Probably in Iran, but they did bomb some camps in Syria nearly two years ago. A good document for you to read would be "Securing The Realm" by Richard Perle and David Wurmser. Neo-Cons to the bone. It openly advocates then Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu to start a war with Syria. These ideas are what led to the "Syrian Accountability Act" which our Congress passed about a year and a half ago. It basically tells Syria to quit supporting terror or else. It's dubious because state-sponsored terror is pretty much archaic now. I would recommned you reading that act as well. All of you, since we're all obviously interested in this topic.

[leftofthedial]

32. thanks for the references

[Wetzelbill]

47. no problem

[CWebster]

23. Yes, but since ALL our politicians pay homage to AIPAC

and have brutalized the Islamic world with Imperialistic aggression, since they repeatedly lie and kill and lie and kill with seeming indifference, don't expect a change in the weather.

[opihimoimoi]

30. Yes, we have. WE should start by puting ourselves in their places....

Our arrogance/greed/ignorance are the breeding grounds of hardship and misery.

[1932]

33. Yes. An imperial, military war on terrorism is doomed to failure. However,

as you say, addressing poverty and using the weight of international criminal investigatory and prosecutorial powers is the best thing we can do.

[Zhade]

34. Kick

Kick

[Disturbed]

35. "Against All Evil"

by Richard Pearle and some othe wacko advocates overthrowing the Saudi Royals. The Bush Crime Family was not too pleased about that notion, I bet.

As long as we have the Bush Regime in power there will be little change in method. Extremist Isalmic Terrorists are actually an aid to the PNAC goals. Each attack provides more power to the Bush Regime to forward their Imperialism, spurred along by the Multi-Natls, esp, Oil Corps.

[Clarkie1]

40. You are right. If we treat it merely as a military war, it is unwinnable.

This video explains what we need to be doing more of to stop terrorism (and it doesn't involve the military). Please watch it.

http://www.yellowdogdem.com/070805.WMV

[Gregorian]

52. WAR IS UNWINNABLE

My theory is that no war has ever been won. Call me stupid.

[Clarkie1]

54. I can't agree with that, but see my post above.

I am currently reading 1776.

We certainly won that one :-).

[Gregorian]

56. That is within the context of killing and might.

First I like to say AAAARRRRGGGHHH! I have inadvertantly watched Faux. You could have put a warning on that link. :)

I voted for Clark in the primaries. Let me just say that. I had great reservations voting for someone who wears a uniform. But he redeems himself through his intelligence, and clarity of being.

I will continue to say that war is unwinnable. Any war one thinks we won, would have turned out better had it a)Never happened (ie. been avoided.), b) Been solved through means other than force.

It essentially comes down to religion. One either believes that WE run this world, or God does. One either believes that what is happening on earth is the ultimate reality, or just part of a bigger scheme. Thou shalt not kill, means just that to me. In Vietnam, my best friend and I were CO's.

I believe this world is currupt and full of evil. Fighting is doing exactly as evil would want you to do. To win a war is to not fight a war. Evil loses when we don't fight. Yes, I mean that hippy, pansy, loser thing called pacifism. Kill me, and see who ultimately wins. That's what I mean.