The 2008 race will be Gen. Clark verses Jeb Bush: Agree or Disagree?

[norml]

The 2008 race will be Gen. Clark verses Jeb Bush, so that's where they're going to put most of their behavioral conditioning.

That is when they're not pushing their "Hillary is Running" nonsense.

Of course they will just say again as they did before that Clark is just a stocking horse for Hillary.

[xultar]

1. Jeb will not get the nod. Clark will!

[Totally Committed]

3. I agree! Wes -YES, but, Jeb?

I think he will be the VP on the RNC ticket.

TC

[norml]

8. Jeb's a PNAC member with solid support from the fundie base.

They believe they can win with just the solid support of their base, and cover from their dirty tricks propaganda machine.

Jeb's got the Bush brand name for the Bush faithful, and he would keep their criminal conspiracy intact.

[JohnnyBoots]

13. If

all the PNAC theories are corect, then Jeb is the only logical choice unless they find another spokesmodel like W. A lot can happen until then too.

[HootieMcBoob]

2. Don't know whether I agree or disagree...however....

I sure as hell hope is Wes Clark.

Jeb Bush is a good guess because I don't think the wing-nuts who control the GOP will go for McCain, even though he would be their best bet to win. Frist may have screwed the pooch...so yeah Jeb is a good bet.

I hope we have enough good sense to nominate Clark.

[Casandra]

6. Clark Vs. Iraq

..and what is Clark's position on the Iraq issue? Does he want to bring our troops home NOW? I am with other posters who are putting this Iraq agression on the front burner.(to end this debacle)..no matter WHO it is.

[stray cat]

16. Clark wants us to protect Iraqs borders

and come up with a real plan. He was against the Iraq war in the first place.

[barbaraann]

4. Sadly, I think it will be Clinton vs. Bush. (Hillary vs. Jeb)

And maybe Richardson and Powell in the Veep spots.

[norml]

10. Nonsense! She won't even be in the Primaries.

Bets?

[barbaraann]

14. I'll bet a $25 contribution to DU.

Is that kosher?

[norml]

17. You got it. I'll be due for a contribution by then, if I'm wrong...

which I'm not.

[barbaraann]

29. It's a deal.

:-)

[norml]

35. OK, in a little over a year and a half from now we should know the answer.

Thanks barbaraann!

[barbaraann]

39. teehee

I'm gonna win. ;-)

[lancdem]

18. I'm not sure she's running, either

She won't decide until after 2006. I also don't believe Jeb is running. Clark I can see.

[Sparkly]

5. I don't see them positioning Jeb for a run, but I could be wrong.

I think we'll see their nominee installed as VP before this term is over.

And if Clark runs again, I'll do everything I can to help him get nominated!!

[Totally Committed]

98. Just remember.... these people don't "position"...

they "install". This is a dynasty we're talking about. A REPUBLICAN dynasty. Jeb comes from a long line of Republican "saints". He needs only to decide he wants on the ticket, and he will be... and every pressure will be brought to bear to see that he wins.

TC

[cyclezealot]

7. at first I thought you meant for governor of Florida.

Jeb is termed out. The nutcakes run the GOP. I think Frist has not screwed up with these wackos. I say Frist. The Bush name is getting old. The question. Free Elections.
We know Florida/Ohio most likely has rigged elections. Maybe the whole US...If so, Clark might not be able to win.
Four more years of Empire. I am with my man Kucinich.

[Hippo_Tron]

47. If Ohio and Florida were completely riggable Bush would have spent...

Very little money in those states. Instead he campaigned very hard in both of them, PROBABLY, so that he could make them within the margin of fraud. BTW Arkansas has passed paper trail laws, and Clark is from there, so add another 6 EVs into our column.

[cyclezealot]

74. No paper trail who knows.

you think what Bush's spends on campaigns is anything more than pocket change to his donors. Just for appearances, plus landslides might best not be rigged against the will of an overwhealming vote.

[Hippo_Tron]

107. My point is that there is a margin of fraud

I'm not naive enough to believe that there wasn't something fishy in Ohio and possibly in Florida. Had Kerry been up 10 points with little to no undecideds, people (and I mean people other than Jon Conyers, although I mean that with no disrespect to him) would've started asking questions.

Diebold couldn't have made Goldwater beat Johnson, McGovern beat Nixon, Mondale beat Reagan, or even Dukakis beat Bush.

HOWEVER, the sooner we get paper trails, the better AND the sooner we get these assholes out of power the better. The longer they are in power, the more time they have to continue further corrupting the system.

[ellenfl]

9. i still think mccain caved to shrub because they

promised him a run in 2008. jeb might be up for vp, with a run after mccain to keep the dynasty going. heaven forbid! it's a good thing there are a lot of skeletons (provable) in the younger bush clan's closets. let's make sure that evidence doesn't disappear.

i don't think the establishment (dnc) will put up clark. they will want an existing employee. i think the rw is pushing hillary because they know that putting a woman up in this climate would spell defeat for us. i think that's just the way it is. i hope dems don't start believing that hillary should be the one just because the msm (aka corporate media) says so. remember who is pushing for hillary.

ellen fl

[wakeme2008]

19. that's what I think McClain is OLD

I think they promised him FOUR years and then run Jebbie as VP and in then 2012 they expect to run Jebbie for President.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

50. Their promises are worth...

Very little it seems.

It is difficult to imagine them following through if there is such a deal for McCain.

[BlueStateGirl]

11. I think it is gong to be Hillary Clinton V Condoleeza Rice. AS much as I

would like for it to Wes Clark, I think it will be Hillary.

I think President Bush, will elevate Condoleeza to VP after Cheny steps down. Thus setting her up nicely for 2008.

[norml]

12. I have only one word to say to that...

Bets?

[BlueStateGirl]

24. Sure. Let's make it interesting :)

[norml]

30. Well to start with I'll be looking forward to reposting this

and all the other threads I've posted saying Hillary isn't going to run President, and that Jeb is going to be the Presidential Nominee of the GOP/RNC in 2008.

This is the first time I've said Clark is going to be the Democratic Party Nominee in 2008, though I've thought it for about a Month now.

However if you really want to bet that it's going to be Rice verses Clinton, go ahead.

I think that the floating of their names is just so much right wing propaganda nonsense.

[BlueStateGirl]

33. Okay. If I'm wrong, I'll have no problem acknowledging that. I've been

wrong before, and I am sure I'll be wrong again.

I really think Hillary will run. I don't think Jeb will. I think people will be so tired of the Bush family by 2008 that he won't stand a chance.

And I really think Cheney is going to step down because of illness. Rice seems like the most likely person to replace him. If she does, then I think she is a lock to run. I think the Republican party would throw their support to her over Jeb, because she is 100% guaranteed to support their neocon agenda.

Like I said, I would like for it to be Clark, I wanted it to be Clark this time around, but if Hillary runs, I think she will get the nomination.

[patricia92243]

42. The South will not vote for a black person. The Republicans know this.

They will never, ever, never take that huge of a chance on losing.

I had my hair cut today, and the guy said a SLIGHTLY prejudice remark.

Bigotry is alive and well.

[SaveElmer]

15. If we are smart it will be Hillary vs. (doesn't matter)

McCain would be tough actually, but I don't think the Repugs are smart enough to nominate him...Hillary will win the nomination and the election!!!

[FW_]

22. Jeb

I hate Jeb....just had to share. My wife and I flick off the Governors Mansion everytime we drive by.

[norml]

23. She will be needing our support against Rudy in the 2006 Senate race.

They plan on making that Senate race the Heart of their national 2006 election cycle propaganda effort.

[SaveElmer]

36. I don't think Rudy is gonna run....

Too big a chance he will lose given Hillary's popularity...he'll either hold out for Prez, or maybe take a stab at Governor, though Spitzer is gonna be a tough opponent too!!!

[norml]

49. It doesn't really doesn't matter to them if Rudy loses to Hillary in 2006

It's still got it's propaganda and fund raising value for them.

[aaronnyc]

81. But it matters to Rudy

While I have no doubt that the Republicans would be thrilled if Rudy runs against Hillary (after all, he is the only person who has any chance of beating her), I don't think that Rudy wants to take the risk of losing. And in the end, it is his call alone. He'd be wise to sit this one out and wait for a better opportunity to arise.

[norml]

99. Well then they'll just have to give Giuliani lots of money and promise him

some kind of high level job. I'm sure they already have. Rudy knows there's no way he could win the nomination of this GOP/RNC party, and any talk of it is just hype.

[Yupster]

31. My guess from the beginning was

Hillary versus McCain.

So far, I'm sticking with that.

[Capn Sunshine]

83. That's my call also

It's pretty obvious coming down the highway right at us.

I look forward to a Hillary candidacy only because the prospect makes the freepers go completely mental. They think they can trot out he smear machine again, but Hillary is not John kerry.

[Clark2008]

116. She might win the primaries thanks to the right-wing press, but

she will NOT win the general election - Diebold or no.

Note: If the press thinks it's a good idea for the Democrats, it's not.

Got it?

[SaveElmer]

119. I got you are wrong

Hillary is the best chance we have in the general. The Clinton's are master politicians, and are not intimidated by RW tactics.

I don't give a flying f*ck what the press or Republicans say...is that what we are gonna do now, go groveling to the Right wing press and see which candidates will be acceptable to them?

[Leilani]

20. The (R's) will choose George Allen

Take that to the bank.

Frist has been outfoxed by McCain & the moderate coalition. He is now damaged goods.

Jeb knows the people need a break from the Bush name, & his wife doesn't want him to run. Look for him in 4-8 years.

As far as the Dems, who knows?

[whalerider55]

25. Allen?

his national reputation, such as it is, is that he is really stupid. really, no act, dumb as a log. warner hates him. allen won't fly in the north, he's couldn't find the west on a map with a compass.

he has no meaningful legislative record...'

and folks, anyone recall the last time we elected a sitting senator?
Kennedy.

how many times in the last 50 years has a sitting senator even gotten the nomination? hmmm. Stevenson. Goldwater. Kerry. Dole. McGovern. five senators, 25 possible nominations. 20% odds. WHo am i missing?

allen is the conventional wisdom choice. i think conventional wisdom is overrated.


whalerider

[Yupster]

32. JFK

That's one you missed.

[Totally Committed]

53. JFK was assassinated...

If you mean Kerry, I disagree.

TC

[Yupster]

82. The question I was answering was

how many times in the last 50 years has a sitting senator gotten the nomination.

Wasn't Kennedy a sitting senator when he got the nomination?

I thought he was.

[Totally Committed]

91. Sorry....

I see people use the "JFK" initials for Kerry and it drives me over the edge.

Sorry to come in and sh*t on your post that way. I try not to read most posts about Kerry to keep my head from exploding. I apologize.

TC

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

55. LBJ

Lyndon B. Johnson was a Senator when nominated for V.President with John F. Kennedy. Later took over for JFK, and won one election vs Goldwater, didn't run for the next term.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

56. Others who served in the Senate

and weren't "sitting senators" at the time of nomination:

Franklin D. Roosevelt
Harry S. Truman
Hubert H. Humphrey
Al Gore

[whalerider55]

69. Roosevelt?

Sec'y of the Navy, Governor of New York... don't believe he ever served in the senate.


right on LBJ; but Kennedy Johnson were an abberation to the pattern, i think.

maybe i missed warren harding, too.

wilson- gov of NJ.

coolidge- gov

hoover- don't believe he'd ever held elective office, just cabinet positions...


whalerider

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

72. Nope

He was a New York State Senator at one time, my mistake.

Not in the US Senate.

[Totally Committed]

92. Look... Senators have won the Presidency before...

I don't deny that. But, it was a different time and place, and a different opposition Party at the time.

Those, like me, who are older than dirt can remember a time when the Republican Party was made up of good, decent, ethical people who just had a different view of the fiscal side of things will tell you that. They honestly felt government was too big, and all the things that a true Conservative believes. There wasn't this all-consuming hatred and taste for innihilation of The Democrats in the mix. There wasn't this Religious Extremism. There wasn't this well-oiled filthy smear-machine. They were the true "Loyal Opposition" (or we were, depending on which Party was in power at the time.) People could run on their records, because that's what mattered at the time. Politics was about ideas then, not ideology.

When Reagan came to power, he brought with him a cancer. That cancer began to eat away at his Party and our country until nothing was left but a place that accomodated only power-hungry bottom-feeders bent on the complete and utter take-over of the government. They began to organize, and get their candidates elected to local school boards. Once they had the local and state governments in their pockets, Gingrich brought in the first wave of Neo-Cons (new conservatives) to Washington, and the take-over began. The fruits of that bloodless coup are evident today in the RW-er thirst for our complete and utter destruction. They do not want a Democratic Party still standing when the dust settles.

I liken this whole thing to The Borg (I know... it's a Star Trek reference, but I'm writing this before my morning coffee, so bear with me) and the DLC and all the centrist "new Democrats" are the ones from our Party that have been "assimilated". They have been infected, and are now being released in the direction of this Party to take it down from within. I know this is true because of what I have witnessed as I have paid close attention. These appeasers, colluders, DINO's... whatever word you want to use for them, are going to kill this Party. They are going to finish the jon the Neo-Cons started. If we allow them, they will kill this Party deader than a doornail. We (the TRUE Leftist Liberal Democrats) will never see another of our kind elected to run this country again if we keep moving to the center and get assimilated. This Party will die, and the Neo-Cons will have their victory -- a One-Party Theo-Autocracy.

So, go ahead ... keep running these Centrist Senators against them. That's what they want: candidates with records as long as their arms so they can be attacked and smeared and rendered impotent (and not lift a finger to fight back) in the eyes of a half-asleep electorate. We will lose until we start electing candidates from "outside the box", and nowhere near the Senate.

TC

[kodi]

112. you bet he will. he is the natural succesor to bush

.

[whalerider55]

21. not jebbie

by the time '08 arrives, the bushes will likely be finished as a poltical force in their own names; not to say that they won't be the men behind the curtains.


mccain in '08; the fundies can put up or shut up, but they won't have anywhere else to go (look for mccain to try to satisfy them with a VP choice).

if the dems want the white house back, they'll need to break with Kerry, Hillary, and go with clark.., although the dark horse in my mind is Gore.

we'll see.

whalerider

[FW_]

26. Jeb

I'm really surprised Jeb isn't running for Senate against Nelson in 2006. I really thought if he wasn't going to run for President he'd run for Senate and unfortunately I think he'd have a good shot at defeating Nelson.

[whalerider55]

28. he might, FW

but you have no idea the complete contempt he is held in by the rest of us outside florida (and i'm sure a lot in florida) his schiavo escapades guarantee he will never get a moderate vote outside of FL.

no mods, no pres.

bush=lie

whaalerider

[FW_]

63. Jeb

Oh, I think I know how much he is despised.

[Patchuli]

68. I agree, Shiavo was his downfall

and I agree with the OP who said that the Bushes will be finished by then. I think they will still be trying to live down what Little Boots has done to U.S.!

Hillary is too polarizing...I also agree, I still like Gore a lot.

[norml]

93. His Schiavo efforts were less than what the fundie base wanted.

But they were enough to hold on to their support.

[Patchuli]

111. Thank God the fundies are NOT the majority

which totally disagreed with Jeb's meddling in private family affairs! I am in CA and still I called Jeb's office and requested that he stop harassing Michael Schiavo. Grandstanding on a corpse is pretty sick.

[Zenlitened]

27. I have no way to predict, but I'd be HAPPY to vote for Wes Clark!

:hi:

[election_2004]

34. It will be....

Blanche Lincoln and Mark Warner vs.
Bill Frist and George Voinovich

http://www.lincoln2008.com

Lincoln/Warner win all of the blue Kerry states, plus WV, AR, MO, FL, VA, NM, NV, AZ, MT

Frist/Voinovich win most of the red Bush states, very possibly including OH

[prvet]

43. How did she vote on the IWR?

n/t

[election_2004]

44. Like everyone else....

Blanche Lincoln voted for IWR along with Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, John Kerry, Joe Biden, and any other Democratic U.S. Senator (aside from Feingold) who might jump into the 2008 race.

Not the way I would have voted, but I don't believe in applying unreasonable litmus tests that will wipe out most of the field of potential viable presidential candidates.

In 2004 during the Arkansas senatorial debates, Senator Lincoln said that she believed Bush did not exhaust all of the appropriate diplomatic resources before invading Iraq. She added that future U.S. intervention in Iraq should be limited to U.S. Special Services troops, and that the U.S. needs to let the Iraqi people run their own government.

[Totally Committed]

64. Blanche Lincoln and Mark Warner vs....

Bill Frist and George Voinovich would be like running four Republicans of varying degrees.

There are some of us who would still llike to see the Democratic Party actually run a ticket slightly left of center, and I don't mind telling you -- I am one.

I am serious. If the DNC neglects people like me again, I will stay home. No more voting "the lesser of two evils", or ABB or anymore nonsense. Give me a ticket I can vote for instead of against the RNC ticket, or I stay home, and I know many feel EXACTLY as I do.

The last election was the last straw. NEVER AGAIN.

TC

[Hippo_Tron]

108. Mark Warner actually isn't all that conservative

He's pro choice, got a tax increase through the Virgnia legislature, and has been a pretty talented fiscally responsible Governor overall. The truth is that since he hasn't been a congressman, he gets to shape a lot of his stances on issues when he runs.

Although I'm supporting Russ Feingold over all others, I would take Warner over Biden, Bayh, Lincoln, Kerry, Hillary, and maybe Edwards.

[election_2004]

114. Do you have any favorites?

Who would be "left-of-center" enough to be acceptable to you?

[BornaDem]

37. Will not be either one. Will be Hillary vs ?

[norml]

85. It's always been a bunch of right wing nonsense that she's running

for President.

She's never ran. She's never said she was running.

They do it to paint her as power mad, and to take away from her accomplishments.

She is the right wing media machine's bogey to which they've dedicated much of their behavioral conditioning.

We've got to be on making the case for her in the 2006 Senate race against Rudy.

The GOP/RNC are planning on building their national 06 strategy around the Hillary verses Rudy race for the Senate.

[prvet]

38. Wes will win!!!!

Clark is the only Dem I see winning against any potential GOP candidate.

[Totally Committed]

65. I agree 1000%! n/t

TC

[KeepItReal]

40. CHUCK HAGEL wins it all in a "Close Election"

Mark my words, y'all.

[zulchzulu]

45. Bingo!

Chuck will get the prize for all his hard work getting non-verifiable electronic voting off to a good start in the '90s when he was in the thick of it.

The Repugs own "democracy" right now...a little tour through the Ohio 2004 election gives you a general idea of how perfectly their strategy is played out.

I'm guessing it might be Hagel/Frist so that the Religious Reich has their hand in the pie too.

[KeepItReal]

48. Damn, Hagel/Frist....

That is a damn good hypothetical.

[Jack Rabbit]

41. Jeb will be toast by 2008

His and his brother's wing of the GOP will not be terribly influential. The neoconservatives (who are war criminals) and the Christian right (who are just obnoxious) will be discredited by then.

Besides, if Bush's position falls apart, Clark will have to wrest the nomination from President Pelosi is president by 2008. And if Bush's position falls apart faster than that, Jeb will have to contend with President Hastert.

Either way, if Bush's position falls apart like that, no one is going to want his brother around to remind them of him.

[1932]

46. The dem nominee will be Vlasik, Richardson, Warner or Edwards.

If I had to add one more to that list, it would be Clinton.

And if you added Boxer and the governor of Arizona, I think you'd almost definitely have a list that included the two people who will be on the ticket.

[Totally Committed]

66. I had no idea...

you were so fond of the DLC(ish). Boxer is the only person who mentioned who isn't centrist of right of center..

I had you pegged all wrong.

TC

[1932]

71. I'm not listing the candidates I want. I'm predicting the nominee.

I agree that a couple of those candidates are too centrist and too boring for me, but they all are populists, and there will DEFINITELY be a populist on the ticket.

[whalerider55]

70. interesting list

don't know much about vlasic; i'll always remember that richardson actively shut down the new mexico recount, so i can't abide by him...

Warner, edwards... could be.

i think a ticket with clark at the top and a woman or minority candidate as sweeps the country. Clark brings in the moderates and conservative dems and scores a lot of point with progressives because he's smart and experienced. putting obama (or my heroes, rangel/conyers) on the ticket i think would put pin the pugs down to spending more time and $$$ in the south, really electrify states like michigan, ohio and others.

hard to believe that it is over 20 years since the only woman on major party ticket...\

time to catch up to reality.

whalerider

[Inspired]

79. Do you mean Vilsack?

It will be Edwards.

[1932]

86. Yeah, I caught that after the editing period closed.

It's interesting how long it took for someone to correct that. Perhaps he won't be one of the four finalists.

And if I had to bet money, I'd put it on Edwards.

[LandOLincoln]

84. No way. I refuse to vote for a pickle, and I know

plenty of people who feel the same way.

[Totally Committed]

94. I agree LandOLincoln...

If they run another DLC/DLC-ish "Centrist" "Populist", they can count me out. No more Business as usual for me. This is either the Democratic Party, or it's not. No more middle-of-the-road bullshit or bullshitters!

I want to see guts. I want to see fire. I want to see genuine DEMOCRATIC PARTY ideals. If we are, indeed, the "Party of the People", to whom social justice, equality, and peaceful co-existence with our neighbors are non-negotiable, and the candidates REFLECT ALL OF THIS, then... and only then... will I vote for the ticket.

In 2004, only three candidates met those criteria for me: Wes Clark, Howard Dean, and Dennis Kusinich.

The DNC needs to stop moving to the center to appease the other side, or to cynically attract "Red Staters" or "Values Voters". They just need to nominate a candidate that will get through to them this one thing: The Democratic Party will keep you genuinely safe and secure, WHILE allowing you and your family the dignity and respect of living in an economy where you can support your family, send your kids to college, and live the American dream.

None of these people vote for the Republicans because they represent everlasting war, richer rich people, destruction of our natural resources, or any of their horrendous policies. These people vote for the Republicans because they are under the mistaken idea that the Republicans are the Party that will keep them and their children safe here at home. We need to dissuade them of that idea, and we will win.

Keeping that in mind, do you really think some middle-of-the-road soft-talking, polite, appeaser is going to cut the mustard? NO WAY! Should we try to "take the high road" or not rile the Republicans? HELL NO! Kerry did that and they ate his face for lunch! We need a ticket of scrappers, fighters, get-in-their-facers and truth-tellers to take it to them in no uncertain terms and fight every smear, counter every allegation, and go after them like a pair of junk-yard dogs!

When this Party gives me a ticket I can vote FOR, they will have my vote. Period.

TC

[LandOLincoln]

97. Actually, I was just goofing on his misspelling of Vilsack

as Vlasik--as in Vlasik Pickles (although on second thought I believe the pickle people spell it "Vlasic.")

But yours is a great post anyway, and I agree totally.

[Totally Committed]

101. Shhhhhhhhhhhhh........ I know...

but I saw an opening for a rant, and thought you wouldn't mind....

:pals:

TC

[NMDemDist2]

109. I doubt Napalitano will run in '08. I see the Senate in her future first

[1932]

110. I read that she started a committee for 2008 prez race

I heard she has given a speech or two in states outside of AZ.

But it wouldn't be the first time someone aimed high and backed off to a Senate race, with that being the plan right from the start.

But it also wouldn't be the first time that someone aimed for prez and ended up being the VP with that being the plan right from the start.

[Auntie Bush]

51. Disagree....Clark,, yes...Jeb, no.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

52. Frist is already a joke...

Between the Schaivo battle and diagnosis by videotape, and his handling of Bolton etc.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

54. My crystal ball is at the shop, but

I'd like to see Wes Clark as the nominee.

Or playing a significant role as he already is, and doing so in a future Democratic administration, if someone else gets the nomination.

I know he won't be burning any bridges behind him, which will help to keep his potential positive influence on foreign policy in tact.

As for Jeb, I think his last gasp effort to nail Schaivo was really, really tacky, makes him look pretty sad, bad, mad.

[norml]

57. Actually making some last gasp effort for Schaivo was just the dues he has

to pay to the "culture of life" fundie base.

[bgb217]

59. Jeb is a joke, he won't get the nom...

I can't understand how after the Schiavo mess, the recent personal attack on Michael (the investigation into the 9-11 call times), especially.

[norml]

89. If you misspell Schiavo as "Shiavo" you get a bunch of web sites that

think Jeb didn't go far enough.

This is their base.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22jeb+bush%22+shiavo&btnG=Google+Search

[Stinky The Clown]

58. Battle of the War Heroes .... Clark vs Hagel

The Bush name will have lost damn near all its luster by 08. It will have support only from the religious fanatics. The neocon agenda will have been tarnished and they'll be back underground. McCain is too old and won't run. Rudy's a nutcase, will be seen as such, and will not get the repub nod no matter what. Frist screwed the pooch with the Schindler daughter **and** Bolton, so he's toast. George Allen is an emptier suit than idiot son. Kindasleazy is a) female, oddly asexual/sexually ambiguous and b) black; no way, no how. The only repub in sight who has any widespread creds is Hagel.

For the Dems, there are no really strong governors. There are, who? Rendell, Vilsack, Richardson, Warner, maybe a few others. None, except maybe Rendell, have the charisma to lead a ticket, even though none of them would be all that bad as a leader. It won't be a DLC-type (I did **not** say DLC member) since I think the DLC, like the neocons, will be underground by the time of the 08 season. That leaves out Clinton, Biden, Joementum, that whole bunch. Edwards (who I like) has no serious creds, a shaky record, and no gravitas. Kerry won't go for it because he'll be said to have 'loser smell' (rightly or wrongly). I don't think Gore will run, but can't say why .... just a feeling. Looking to the rest of the 04 field, we can eliminate from the start Mosely-Braun and Sharpton. Kucinich may again try, but he will have so little support it won't fly. So that leaves Clark as the last one standing. He's got the gravitas. He's got the creds. He's perhaps the smartest one based on pure intellect. He lacks some in the charisma department, to be sure, but as a total package, I think he's got the best shot. The hardest part for him will be the dem primaries.

After the primaries, Clark and Hagel will have one hell of a thrilling horse race. When the shit starts to go through the fan, however, Clark will come out on top, because the Hagel/ES&S nexus will rear its ugly head. They'll hit Clark with some bullshit 'started WWIII' shit, but that will quickly, and with finality, be undercut by simple truth. The SOA crap may come up, but only from the far left.

In the end, the ES&S shit will be enough to tip a close race to Clark.

.... or maybe not ...... s'lookin' pretty cloudy in there right now ......

[norml]

60. That would require them to go in an entirely different direction

from the PNAC agenda, their fundie base, and the behavioral conditioning done by their right wing media machine to hate Hagel.

[Clarkie1]

61. Possible, but probably not probable. n/t

[u2spirit]

62. Disagree

It will be Biden of course. He is a fighter, a man of the people and listens to the needs of his constituents. He will have the Repukes running scared.






























PS- Extreme :sarcasm:

[Califooyah Operative]

67. yes.

if jeb wants it no one cant stop him, and it looks like he's wanted it.

[zara]

73. Dems could do worse.

Clark has guts. Speaks like a Dem from years ago--Harry Truman or FDR or LBJ.
Now here's a man who wouldn't cry if smeared for telling the truth. (Nor would Hillary I suppose.)
(Damn I'm still bitter about Durbin, generally a fine Senator).

[mconvente]

77. I'd definitely support Clark

He'd carry Arkansas as well as get the moderate and progressive vote. He gets my vote over Hilary anyday.

[Poppyseedman]

75. Clark verses Jeb Bush: Agree or Disagree?"

Put down that bong before you hurt yourself

Not in a million years

[snowbear]

76. Norml.. another Jeb post?

What's up with that anyway? :yoiks: :yoiks: :yoiks:

[norml]

80. Yep, another Jeb post, and it won't be my last.

They whisper about Jeb.

He's the one they want.

People must be warned.

[peace frog]

78. By 2008 the country will be heartily sick of the Bush name...

Jebbie can't pull it off in 2008. John McCain stands a much better chance of winning the presidency since he is considered to be a moderate (untrue, but nevertheless has the rep) who is popular with crossover Democrats as well as Repubs.

It's been reported that McCain has accepted the Bush team to manage his campaign, and that plus his embrace of Junior's 2004 reelection makes it likely McCain has gone over to the Dark Side. I'll wager he's been given the unenviable option of having to accept Jebbie as his running mate in exchange for the Bushies' wholehearted support of his presidential run... but take it he will, for McCain very badly wants to be president.

Thus having been Vice President for 4 or more years, Jebbie will then be perfectly poised to slither into the White House as Prez in 2012 or 2016.

[FourStarDemocrat]

95. I agree w/ this- tho they may attach Jeb to someone else other than McCain

Jeb *is* who they really want even if they aen't saying it just yet..he is already a trusted member of the Bu$h crime family. He has experience governing in Florida. He embraces the "win at any cost, tampering with elections" philosophy. The Republican leadership does not really want a Senator to run in '08 if they can help it. Jeb can be trusted to work in the interests of the oil and gas, and defense industry and at the same time keep the Fundies under his thumb.

[erpowers]

87. Feingold Supporter

I really would prefer in Feingold was the Democratic Nominee.

[nevergiveup]

88. McCain is too old

...Clinton will surprise everyone and not run
...Hagel is from Nebraska and has been too critical of the War
...Jeb is lacking something.....not sure what
...Rudy can have it if he wants and if he can avoid being committed
...Edwards is likable but considered by too many as a "lightweight"
...Frist got Schiavoed
...Clark is quietly building ground-root support and collecting IOU's and unlike most Democrats is not frightened of telling the truth.....at this point he would be a good bet
...Chimpy, is packing the scotus, and will probably get Constitution changed so he can run for a third term
...My prediction Chimpy vs Clark

[norml]

100. John Mccain — Date of Birth: 29 August 1936

Yep, too old, and no way this freeperized GOP/NRC would give him the nomination.

[StevieM]

90. I think it will be Hillary for the Dems, Frist or Allen for the GOP (eom)

x

[aspberger]

96. Hillary

The force is strong in her. She is finishing her political training off in the senate and learning the powers of New York street smarts. Who else has such an impressive resume of success? And don't forget the New York cash behind her.

[nickshepDEM]

102. Neither will run.

[Singular73]

103. It'll be Frist vs some no-name hard-lefty

[Larkspur]

104. The Dem nominees being touted by the DLC are Vilsack & Hillary in '08

That's the combo they'll try to shove down our throats.

I'm no Clark supporter, but even I know that the Dem Establishment won't let a civilian political neophyte, like Clark lead the ticket in '08. Clark will be a stooge for the Dem Establishment again.

[Totally Committed]

105. "Clark will be a stooge for the Dem Establishment again."

a stooge... really? And for the "Democratic Establishment", yet.

He's a good, decent man with genuine Liberal views on almost all issues. He's a genuinely compassionate man who believes in equality and charity. He's a really intelligent man, with several advanced degrees -- from Economics to Philosophy. He's an author of books, Op-Eds, and articles. He helped negotiate the Dayton Accords, and was a signatory on that very document. He's the highest decorated General since Dwight Eisenhower. He was Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. Etc., etc., etc.

I don't see "stooge" there. As a matter of fact, I don't see anything vaguely resembling "stooge" there. And as someone who definitely is a Wesley Clark supporter, I can tell you he has never been a stooge for the Democratic Establishment or anybody. And, the way he's going now, by 2008, he will not be considered a "neophyte", should he choose to run, either.

You can bet on any ticket you like... and yes, considering this is the Democratic Party, we indeed may have the ticket you mention rammed down our throats. I don't rule out that possibility. But that doesn't give you the right to make any nasty-ass statement you damned-well please about a candidate you don't happen to support.

If Wes decides to run, it will be my honor to support him to the hilt.

TC

[Adelante]

115. It's a reflex

Wes Clark -----> insult

Of course, Howard Dean is the Dem Establishment, but why quibble when somebody's having fun indulging a simpleminded insult reflex?

Day after day, thread after thread :crazy:

[Totally Committed]

117. You got that right!

:crazy: and then some....

Actually... Howard literally is the Democratic Party Establishment now -- you're right!

TC

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Totally Committed]

121. Larkspur... Dean runs the Party now, fercryinoutloud!

How much more "establishment" could he get?

Don't get me wrong... I think the Party is WAY much better for it. He's doing a super job, and I love how he speaks his mind! But, it's pretty hard to argue you are not part of something when you run the damned thing.

No Clark Kool-Aid -- I love Howard, too!

TC

[Larkspur]

122. No, Dean runs the DNC. The Hill Dems don't take orders from Dean

The Hill Dems are the ones who told Dean that he could not form policy because that was their job. The DLC, which is the fascist wing of the Dem Party, certainly does not follow Dean's wishes or orders. The Dem Establishment is made up of the Hill Dems, DLC, and large donors.

Dean runs the DNC, which is responsible for setting up the Dem Party infrastructure in all 50 states and US territories to support all Dems. The DNC is composed of 440 voting members.

[Totally Committed]

123. The "Hill Dems" are stupid..

and so are any others in the Party not listening to what Dean is saying now... They need to be taking their cues from him. He is being strong and forceful, and saying a lot of what needs to be said.

And your point about the distinction is well taken.

TC

[norml]

118. Do you have links to any touting of Hillary by the DLC?

It's the right wing media that's been doing that touting.

As for Vilsack, they'd love having his name to make fun of.

Clark's OK.

I curse out myself when I feel I've failed to nail the repubs on every point in a debate.

There are very few who say everything the way I'd like it to be said.

There are very few who'd do everything I'd like to have done.

I think Clark has inevitability.

I could support Clark in the Primaries, though it's a bit early for that.

I'd like to see how things go.

However It's the perfect time for making predictions, if you want to get your predictions in early, and so I've made mine here.

Once our Presidential Candidate is chosen I hope we can all get real pragmatic about supporting them, as long as it's not Joe Biden.

LOL!

[Mark E. Smith]

106. I sure hope so

Watching Fat Jeb get his pink patrician ass kicked by General Clark will be an enormous pleasure.

Those who say Fat Jeb won't get the GOP nod might be speaking a little prematurely. As the fracture between the Taliban and Centrist (so-called) wings of the Pugs becomes apparent in the Frist vs McCain primary battles, watch Oleaginous Jeb slide his way in as a "unity" candidate.

[iconoclastic cat]

113. At the risk of being banned at dKos, I'd like to say that it won't matter

who runs if the entire thing is rigged.