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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:35 AM
Original message
THIS is supposed to make it OK???????????


Been getting this message on email and posted on various websites. Figure it comes from Rove and Co???


Things that make you think a little........
1. There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January.
In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American City, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

2. When some claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war, state the following ... FDR...led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
Truman....finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,334 per year.
John F. Kennedy. .. started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.
Johnson....turned Vietnam into a quagmire.
From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton...went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

"3. In the two years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but...It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51-day operation. We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records. It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Ted Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick killing a woman.

I THINK MAYBE WHOEVER IS SENDING THIS TO EVERYONE NEEDS TO UPDATE THIS PART:

In the two years since terrorists attacked us President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people.






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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. Reeks of desperation.
They really do love those faulty comparisons, don't they. Chappaquiddick? Please.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. Is this the same taliban that just shot down
one of our airplanes and is holding a soldier captive?
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quaoar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. What BS
FDR...led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did.

Germany, Italy and Japan were allies. After we declared war on Japan after Pearl Harbor, Germany and Italy declared war on us on Dec. 11. FDR then submitted a request to Congress to declare war on Italy and Germany.

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/germwar.html
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Exactly, I was outraged when I read that!
I saw this tripe a month or so ago, so it is not new.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yes, its s'posed to make it OK
They are trying to say Iraq is safe. Last year they were comparing deaths of US soldiers with vehicle accident rates.
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WearyOne Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. comparing one death with another makes it OK ?
and that's the way they think.
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kedrys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. Talk about revisionist history...!
:puke: Just following the slime trail of Dear Leader... :puke:
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quaoar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
8. Let's see
Edited on Sun Jul-10-05 09:49 AM by quaoar
Nixon attacked Cambodia even though Cambodia never attacked us. It was illegal and formed the basis for one of the articles of impeachment against him.

Reagan attacked Grenada even though Grenada never attempted to invade the United States. Supposedly, we were rescuing a group of medical students although Cuban influence there was the real reason.

Clinton attacked Serbia even though Serbia never attacked the United States. This was an intervention to prevent genocide.

But the difference between all of the previous interventions (except for Vietnam/Cambodia) and Iraq is that the other interventions/wars worked. Iraq is totally fucked.

If Bush had somehow managed to invade Iraq and successfully turn it into a Western-leaning democracy, the polls would show 90 percent aproval for his actions. The public loves success and is ruthless about punishing failure.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. There were 39 MILITARY deaths in January, Civilian deaths are not
counted by the US government. I would rather be a civilian in Detroit than a civilian in Iraq. This is the most dishonest fucking line of bullshit ever and it's bee addressed time and time again.

The same old bullshit. FDR didn't "lead us into war" he went to congress and got a legitimate declaration of war as required by the Constitution (btw, he was the last president to follow the Constitution and obtain a declaration of war before using military force). After obtaining a declaration of war against Japan, Germany declared war on the US pursuant to their treaty with Japan.

If the Taliban is "crushed" how did they kill a Navy SEAL team and shoot down a helicopter last week?. Bush did not put inspectors in Libya, Iran or North Korea, in fact, inspectors were kicked out of North Korea under Bush's watch. Inspectors were put in Iran by the UN, not by Bush. Libya made agreements with many nations, not the US.

Whoever's sending this or posting it needs to smacked upside the head with a reality stick.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. A few flaws
Germany never attacked us. Japan attacked us. Japan and Germany were allied. Thus, Germany attacked us. Germany was also attacking our allies. Thus, Germany attacked us.

Wasn't Bosnia a U.N. operation? Clinton sending troops over there without U.N. approval explains why the rest of the world hates him so much :sarcasm:

Bush liberated two countries? Well, if you consider throwing them into a state of anarchy the same as "liberation," sure...

Crippled al-Qaida? Since when? Crushed the Taliban? Not quite.

:shrug:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
11. So the 39 "extra" deaths are insignificant...??
These are above and beyond the 35 deaths in Detroit. So, are they saying, "If 35 deaths in Detroit are acceptable, then we shouldn't worry about 74 deaths total?
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joemurphy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
12. There Are So Many Lies and Unnuanced Statements in This
that it really isn't worth the candle to correct them.

I would just point out, for one thing, that Iraq didn't attack us either.

I also find it interesting that this fellow seems to espouse the fact that Germany "didn't attack us". Actually, they declared war on us around three days after Pearl Harbor. It was one of Hitler's biggest mistakes.

Likening Detroit to Iraq is a bit far-fetched. How many innocent Iraqis died last month? They are the main target of the insurgency right now, not U.S. forces. US deaths pale by comparison. Our generals feel that we've made no headway against the insurgency since a year ago. General Abazaid says that there are more foreign terrorists in Iraq than a year ago.

Given the Madrid and London bombings, al-Qaeda appears far from "crippled" and its leader, Osama Bin Laden is still at large.

The Taliban was ousted from power in much of Afghanistan. But it's on the resurgence. Its leader, Mullah Omar, is still at large. The British have been asked to pull out 3,000 troops from relatively placid southern Iraq for reinsertment in Afghanistan because the military situation is deteriorating there.

We may have "taken" Iraq in less than 51 days, but its hardly pacified. We were told it would be a cakewalk and that Iraqis would welcome us with flowers. We were told that Shinseki was crazy when he said we'd need 200,000 to 250,000 troops to occupy Iraq. That now looks like an underestimation. We were told the war would be paid for with Iraqi oil. That hasn't panned out either. Now Rumsfeld says we might be there another 10 or 12 years.

Its interesting that Republicans like to dredge up supposed Democratic scandals while ignoring their own: Enron, Halliburton, Duke Cunningham; Jack Abramoff; Tom Delay; Karl Rove

People that write the above crap should just eat shit and die. They contribute nothing to reasoned debate. They are all mouth and no brains.

We didn't "put nuclear inspectors in Libya". Ghadaffi decided to drop his weapons program because he felt Libya's status as a maverick country was no longer in its best interests. Also, Bush had nothing to do with it. It was the product of long diplomatic negotiations with the European nations. As to Iran and North Korea, there are no weapons inspectors there at all.

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TyeDye75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
13. WTF
That's just one American City, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq.

Unless of course you count the dead Iraqis.... or do they not count
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
14.  Bush was a drunkard till 40? Kennedy was like in his 20's but they won't

let poor Kennedy live down that accident? What about the accident of Iraq?
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Or you can look at this...
Detroit's population is just under 1,000,000 which doesn't count the people who work IN Detroit but technically live outside the city limits.

The U.S. Military's population in Iraq is just under 150,000.

Simple math shows Detroit murder rate is 1/28571

U.S. Military in Iraq is 1/3846

You are 7 times more likely to die in Iraq than Detroit...
But wait!
The folks in Detroit have no body armor, most are unarmed, and few are expecting trouble.
The Military men are armed, armored, expecting trouble... and thier death rate is STILL 7 times what Detroit's is.

Or, you can use these figures, which I think are better, since he obviously spent more time on them...

http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/articles/afghanistan.html
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Great site! I'm bookmarking it to use to rebut that every time I see it !
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
16. The Detroit comparison
"There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January. In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American City, about as deadly as the entire war torn country of Iraq."

Notice they are comparing US troop deaths to Detroit civilian deaths. A more accurate comparison would be either: US troop deaths to Detroit Police deaths, or Iraqi civilian deaths to Detroit civilian deaths.

Violent killings recorded at the Baghdad city morgue in Jan 2005 - and this is one city, not "the entire war torn country" was between 355 and 402.

To say Detroit was as deadly as all of Iraq during January is a gross and offensive misrepresentation of reality.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. By that same logic, Vietnam wasn't really that bad...
Because more people lost their lives in one day when the tsunami hit... Carrying this logic even further, the Holocaust wasn't really that bad - more people died from disease in one year than died at the hands of the Nazis. It's ridiculous!
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
18. While those may be true, here are nasty facts they readily forget:
the fact * ignored warnings, OBL, then EVEN SAID (on 02/13/2002, precisely 6 months to the day * said he'd stop at nothing...) that OBL no longer concerned him!!!!!

These filthy freepers can go enlist themselves.

Hell, Rumsfeld, Reagan, and poppy all supported Huseein and Iran in the 1980s as well. What right to the freepers have at all? Our 'leaders' were aiding and abetting known terrorist entities.

So if the freepers want to crucify Clinton, that's fine by me. They'd better do the same for the leaders they like, for they are exactly the same. (and worse in some cases.)
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
19.  1-2005 US-107 UK-10 Other-10 Total-127 dead
And that's just coalition deaths

Iraqi Police/Guardsmen deaths:
Jan-05 109



US Wounded:
23-Dec-04 thru 04-Jan-05 176 (RTD) 95
05-Jan-05 thru 11-Jan-05 67 (RTD) 53
12-Jan-05 thru 18-Jan-05 36 (RTD) 94
19-Jan-05 thru 25-Jan-05 106 (RTD) 14
26-Jan-05 thru 01-Feb-05 86 (RTD) 62



US Contractors
19-Jan-2005 Whyte, Andrew British Convoy attack Bayji (south of) Security contractor Janusian Security Risk Mgmt.
16-Jan-2005 Unknown Convoy attack Baghdad (30 mi. north) Security contractor Steele Foundation
16-Jan-2005 Ismail, Ibrahim Mohammed Egyptian body found dumped in a street Ramadi Truckdriver Unknown
03-Jan-2005 NAME NOT RELEASED YET British Suicide car bomb Baghdad (nr. Green Zone) Security contractor Kroll Associates
03-Jan-2005 NAME NOT RELEASED YET British Suicide car bomb Baghdad (nr. Green Zone) Security contractor Kroll Associates
03-Jan-2005 Hushin, Tracy American Suicide car bomb Baghdad (nr. Green Zone) Financial manager BearingPoint, Inc.
03-Jan-2005 NAME NOT RELEASED YET British Suicide car bomb Baghdad (nr. Green Zone) Not known yet BearingPoint, Inc.
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manic expression Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
20. That's just pitiful
1.) That's just a lie. That's how many SOLDIERS died in Iraq in January (of combat related deaths, not to mention those mutilated and those killed by accidents...their lives don't count?). What about Iraqis killed in Iraq in January? I find it funny/depressing that their lives don't mean anything. 100,000 and counting (not to mention the lives ruined through houses destroyed, relatives murdered, schools ransacked, unjustified imprisonment...), good job, mission accomplished.

2.) The US was attacked by Japan, and so we went to war with Japan, in turn, Germany DECLARED WAR ON THE US. North Korea attacked our ally, and so the UN intervened, with virtual all US participation.

The Vietnam war was unjustified and wrong. However, one needs to note that the conservative hawks started, pushed and perpetuated that war, while the liberals fought if from day one, and if people listened to them, 58,000 Americans, not to mention about 2 MILLION Vietnamese *people*, would not have been killed FOR NO REASON. Why are we not learning from the past?

Ethnic cleansing was happening in Bosnia, and we tried to put a stop to that. There was justification there, although we did so some bad things (houses were targeted).

3.) Liberated? Get a clue. We murdered countless innocents in Afghanistan, while the Tabliban is still very much a power (a power that we've supported), and warlords are in control of everything else. Karzai is correctly called the "Mayor of Kabul". The worldwide Opium trade has also gotten a pretty good boost since our "liberation".

Iran is pursuing nuclear ambitions, giving Washington the proverbial "come get me", since we've been rattling the saber in the region. North Korea already has nuclear weapons, and is paranoid since Bush started calling them an "axis of evil". NK is also maintaining a pretty aggressive stance to the US because of our actions around the world.

What "terrorist" did we capture? Saddam Hussein? Are you serious? He did not slaughter 300,000 of his own people, and the biggest bloodbath he did was AFTER Bush I asked the Shia to rise up against him, and promptly abandoned them to Saddam, who of course crushed the rebellion. We also supported this "terrorist" and gave him the chemical weapons he used on Iran, as well as the intelligence he needed to use them effectively. We also provided Iran with weapons (thank Reagan for that). The ethnic conflicts that have ensued (Kurds, Turkmen, Assyrians all fighting; not to mention the Shia and Sunni) spell horrible results for Iraq. We have destroyed Iraq's infrastructure, schools, houses, mueseums; there are no jobs, very little food, very little water; conditions for women have deteriorated immensely, no one is safe; human rights does not exist and we routinely incarcerate and kill people for no reason, our actions are as bad as Saddam's when it comes to civil liberties and freedoms.

(I just had to get that out). :rant:
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. One of the great problems with this sort of thing...
... is that it gets recycled ad infinitum. This is not new--it has been circulating for at least fifteen months and maybe longer.

Most people would not know, for example, to what January the email refers (likely January, 2004).

It's a wonderful example of how to play with numbers. Detroit's murder rate went up dramatically in 2004, largely due to multiple murders involving drug deals. "Combat-related" deaths of troops only includes the number the military cites as directly related to combat. Vehicle deaths, suicides, disease, etc., aren't counted--but they all occurred because the soldiers were in that environment. It also ignores the wounded, and, it ignores Iraqi civilian deaths due to violence which would not have occurred had the US not invaded the country.

And that's just the first statement in this.

There's so much misinformation in this, it's hard to know where to start. But, take the last statement. It's meant to be a kind of summing-up of how well things are going under Bush.

Liberated two countries: Bush attacked two countries. Neither can be described as "liberated," even four years later. Both are still occupied by US troops. Warlords control most of Afghanistan, and the puppet government of Afghanistan is restricted to Kabul and is under constant heavy security guard. Iraq is much worse.

Crushed the Taliban: Recent events suggest otherwise. What Bush actually did was disperse the Taliban, particularly into hiding places in western Pakistan.

Crippled al-Qaeda: Given recent events, including attacks on civilians in two major cities in roughly the last year, and the dramatic rise in terrorist attacks world-wide, I'd say they've been dispersed, not crippled, as well, to largely negative effect.

Put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran and North Korea: That's a really interesting take on what's actually been happening. Libya had no real nuclear weapons program. Inspectors said the lab equipment used for weapons research was "second-hand" junk, and all else found was what might be found in any reasonably well-equipped standard laboratory. And, Bush had little to do with that. Qaddafi voluntarily opened the program to IAEA (not US) inspection in the hope of getting US sanctions lifted, so that American and European firms could come in and repair his aging oilfield equipment.

Iran had inspectors in to view their nuclear program well before Bush was elected. As well, Bush did not put the inspectors there--the UN did. Bush, in the meantime, was trying to ruin the reputation of the IAEA and its director (with the assistance of one John Bolton) because they were disagreeing with Bush on the status of Iraq's nuclear weapons program.

North Korea agreed to allow in inspectors early in the first Clinton administration. North Korea threw out the inspectors when Bush reneged on the terms of the agreement Clinton had made with the North Koreans.

Captured a terrorist who killed 300,000 of his own people: No one knows for sure how many of his people Hussein is personally responsible for killing, but the number is likely much lower, and that from reasonably authoritative sources, such as Amnesty International. Second, calling Hussein a terrorist implies that he was actively engaged in terrorism, for which there has been no evidence. Whatever Hussein's other sins and stupidities and arrogations, these two charges are very much in dispute. Let's not forget, either, that for many years, Hussein was our brute. The US enabled some of what he did, and even encouraged him in other acts.


It's unfortunate that people read this, form a quick opinion and it then becomes part of the popular mythology. And, thanks to the internet and email, it is resurrected repeatedly, as if it were new and newsworthy, when, in truth, it's not even close to factual and is not at all current. Caveat lector.
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
22. Germany declares war on us, but we shouldn't have responded?
Edited on Sun Jul-10-05 11:03 AM by JHBowden
:dunce:

The other stuff about quagmires doesn't make their case. Clinton in 1999 stopped ethnic cleansing without a SINGLE American casuality. Bush has been bogged down in Iraq to find weapons of mass destruction that aren't there. It is obvious who the fuck up is.

With the Clinton and Osama lie, one should google the Joe Conason article about it.

The other stuff is deliberately misleading; the rate of death is the important statistic. Suppose we have two cities, A and B, and A has a population higher than B. Let B have a higher crime rate, and A have a higher number of deaths. Which is safer? Duh.
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Maine-ah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-10-05 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
23. Suicide bombers kill at least 33 in Iraq
Edited on Sun Jul-10-05 11:48 AM by Maine-ah
BAGHDAD, Iraq - A man strapped with explosives blew himself up at an Iraqi military recruiting center in Baghdad as suicide bombers attacked three times in Iraq on Sunday, killing at least 33 people and breaking a relative lull in violence in recent days.

The attacks pushed the death count to over 1,500 people killed in violence since April 28, when Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari announced his Shiite- and Kurd-dominated government in a country under attack from an insurgency led by Iraq’s Sunni Arab minority

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8512374/


and that was just Sunday.

on edit:

that's 1.25 people every hour if you average it out in a 24 hour period.
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