Anyone else have a problem with that clenched fist in the right column?

[RC]

Or am I just un-american for thinking violence is not the answer to most everything?

[Lars39]

1. No, for me the raised fist means Solidarity.

[Totally Committed]

9. That's what I thought when I saw it, too...

Solidarity.

TC

[GreenPartyVoter]

40. Ditto

[hyphenate]

2. Actually the clenched fist is a sign of resolve

and that's what the activist corps is about.

It was used to great effect in the Solidarity effort in Poland, and in other places for that same reason. It's a signal that no one is gonna break us.

[longship]

3. No problem for me.

.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. I never thought of it as suggestive of violence.

It's often used as a symbol of resolution and solidarity. I don't think there was any intent to suggest violence.

[Mark E. Smith]

5. Yeah

Fairly or not, it comes with a lot of baggage.

I'd have hoped for something original.

[patricia92243]

6. YES, YES, YES!! And I'm so glad you mentioned it. I'm too wimpy on my own

to say anything.


I know we can't run this board for visitors, but the fist misrepresents the attitude and mission of DU.

[leesa]

16. Exactly what is the attitude and mission in your mind?

We're pissed and we're resolved to get these criminals out of office. Do you mean to be going to the DNC website? They probably have flowers and teddy bears over there.

[patricia92243]

31. I think our mission is activism not militant rebellion. IMHO.

[kentuck]

7. What do you think would be better ?

I think it might have been improved if it were holding a pitchfork...

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

10. I would go for a...

Middle Finger. ;-)

[punpirate]

14. And...

... torches in the background.... :P

The raised fist doesn't symbolize violence--as others have mentioned, it's a symbol of solidarity. Think, for example, of the black-gloved raised fists at the 1968 Olympics, which was done by members of the Olympic Project for Human Rights (OPHR).

They had three main points to make:

Ali's title had been stripped earlier that year for his refusal to be drafted. This was their way of showing opposition for the Vietnam war.

Removing Avery Brundage from the US Olympic Committee--Brundage was reputed to be a white supremacist, who was responsible for arranging with Hitler to have the 1936 Olympics in Berlin.

The third was to disinvite the apartheid states of South Africa and Rhodesia. That demand actually came about.

All amateur athletes, and no mention of or instances of violence associated with OPHR.

Cheers.

[Midlodemocrat]

8. I never thought of the raised fist as invoking violence.

Solidarity, togetherness, yes, but not violence.

[Bill McBlueState]

11. to me it's a sign of strength

Not so much "You're going to be hit in the face with this fist" but more "We're not putting up with any crap anymore."

We could put a pencil in the fist to make it less threatening, like my union's logo: :D

[patricia92243]

12. I wish they would at least put it somewhere else or make it like a thread-

meaning we could "hide" it.

[housewolf]

13. I don't like it either

Solidarity or not, I see it as a symbol of arrogant defiance and am uncomfortable with it.


Thanks for bringing this up.


:hi:

[sandnsea]

15. I don't like it

I prefer something like the joined hands they use at Democracy Cell Project. The clenched fist indicates a longterm oppression to overcome. We're in a different kind of fight, a fight to return to a humanity based government. A clenched fist doesn't seem to express where we're at exactly.

[cally]

18. I would prefer linked hands together, also

The clenched fist connotates violence to me. It also appears male to me. I think a better message is that if we join together in solidarity then we can win. It's not a battle of one's resolve but of a group's resolve.

[TriMetFan]

25. How about having the fist tilted forward just a bit

with the word Unity at the bottom?

[noamnety]

17. Some history on the symbolism

"A 'clenched fist' 'closed fist', or 'raised fist', as a symbol, has been used to represent many similar ideas. The symbol is associated with anarchism, defiance of authority, and personal empowerment (black power, youth power, women's liberation, American Indian Movement, 'power to the people, etc...). The fist also represents union, as "many weak fingers can come together to create a strong fist". The symbol is also used to symoblise solidarity, generally with oppressed peoples."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clenched_fist

Also, I'll add that when we have peace vigils locally, supporters will honk as they drive by, and raise their clenched fist out their car windows, in solidarity. And at the recent Iraqi labor speaker tour, they used the clenched fist in place of applause at several points in the talk, and the audience responded in kind.

Maybe you need to hang out in more union halls. ;-)

[sandnsea]

22. That's the point

We aren't involved in a union fight. We aren't, yet, back to the days of fighting complete oppression such as existed before the 60's. We're trying to keep the hope and humanity that grew out of those days, trying to move forward and apply solutions. At the current moment, solution oriented activism is what is required. The unity of ONE.org and LIVE8, not the detructive anti-WTO masked protesters. It's a new day, the fist doesn't fit right now.

It may in the future, but not right now. Too much anarchism right now.

[patricia92243]

26. The hand of the statue of liberty holding the tourch looks good to me.

[noamnety]

37. For me it fits

We are still fighting a union fight.
We are still fighting a women's rights fight.
We are still fighting for voting rights.

All of those fights included hope and humanity, moving forward, applying solutions, working together, solidarity.

I doubt when it was used in a union hall two weeks ago, with John Conyers present, that anyone there viewed it as expressing anything but solidarity. I think it might, however, be a regional/cultural issue. I'm in the Detroit area, and here it's pretty common as a symbol of support and unity - there's nothing threatening about it to me.

[TriMetFan]

28. A Amen to that.

[Bluerthanblue]

35. it is also

the 'sign language' symbol for the letter e

which i would like to see mean "EVERYONE"

but i have to say, my son has a really big green foam hand that he got at a yard sale, it's a HULK hand, and it was supposed to be used to 'fake box'- we joke that it would make quite the 'hood ornament' on my car, if i could see around it-

[ebayfool]

44. I like it. It is to express solidarity in our fight. Those that think we

should use something that shows a 'softer side' to express harmony & love have the horse before the cart. If anyone thinks this is not a fight, I think they've badly misjudged where we are headed - a fight that involves people's lives. The solidarity symbol, imo, shows exactly what we are coming together for here. Strength in numbers, whether it be for email campaigns, phonebanking, walking w/signs, putting brains together to wrestle truths from bits & pieces, etc. I like the strength of the fist - strength is what we need now.

And to counter those that say it looks masculine - it also looks like a working woman's hand. My hand - well used & able to gather up children or tools, as needed. My 50 year old grandmother hand. (just thought that one should be pointed out - a strong hand isn't automatically masculine ... it's just a strong hand!)

Right now I love the symbol & what it represents. If I'm alone in thinking we aren't shoulder to shoulder in the fight of our life, then I'm in the wrong board. But I don't think so - on either score!

[Mad_Dem_X]

47. Well said!

It means STRENGTH, not violence.

[KarenS]

19. No problem with it here!!

whatever it stands for.

[geek tragedy]

20. John Carlos says it's perfectly fine.

[TriMetFan]

30. You are right and he was very right.

Power to The People. And raise your fist and say We Are United! The Republican Party will not ever Divided Us.

[zippy890]

33. Right On!

I like the clenched fist

[sandnsea]

32. It's disrespectful to that fight as well

We're facing something very different, nothing like what African Americans were facing in the sixties. It's disrespectful to their fight to suggest that we are. We are in a time where we need to be bringing people together to create an environment of harmony and cooperation. The fist just doesn't do it, not right now anyway.

[ClayZ]

21. I like this one!

[dajoki]

23. symbolic of strength in unity

[wryter2000]

24. I like it.

For me, it's more like a gesture at a peaceful rally that we're not going to take it anymore. I don't think that a symbol of peace is appropriate here. We're not making peace with the rw. We tried reason, and they laughed and bulldozed us.

[Berserker]

29. I Think It's Great

To me it's a symbol solidarity and defiance. This is what we need. We do not need a kitty pic representing this. If you use Firefox you can right click on any image and delete it from your computer and you will never have to look at it again.

[Rebellious Republican]

27. Well, actually Black Power and Communist came to my mind

when I saw it.

Personally, I think something better could have been used! but what do I know?

Here is what wikipedia has on gestures and symbols has to say.

Clenched fist
A raised, clenched fist is used as a gesture of defiance by a number of groups. It is usually considered to be hostile, yet without any sexual, scatological, or notionally offensive connotations. It is especially associated with Communists and with other nationalist or ethnic revolutionary or would-be revolutionary movements, and with the Black Power movements of the 1960s in the United States. It is the custom to make this gesture while singing The Internationale, the Marxist anthem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesture#Clenched_fist

:shrug:

[zippy890]

34. Nah, what do they know

it means Power to the people

it means Solidarity

it means Up Yours

it means 'We are here demanding our rights and you have to deal with us, all of us, because We are united and strong'

I don't remember anyone singing the Internationale (I was at UMASS during antiwar days - very radical) during the many protests.

Womens movement used it as well.

[Rebellious Republican]

58. Yep, it sure does mean all those things, and your point is?

Just stating what first popped in my mind when I saw it for the first time.

Did I say anything about "singing the Internationale at UMASS" while you attended there?

I can see that you are defiantly very "radical" and a feisty old gal to boot.

I think the "up yours" looks more like this though as opposed to the more traditional clenched fist.

[proud patriot]

36. I always thought it meant "power to oppressed people"

:hi:

[omega minimo]

38. Even if we agreed that a raised fist symbolizes solidarity

that particular graphic image is extremely aggressive. It appears sculpted and turbocharged with hostile energy to deliver blows, not to express defiance.

That graphic hostility fits with the attitude that we "need balls" and "no pink tutus" and all that macho stuff that (THANKFULLY) has subsided on DU.

And on this thread, several responded to the question with snark about "kitty pix" and " flowers and teddy bears" as the only alternative.

I agree with sandnsea and patricia that this may not be the message we want to send (of at least the right graphic for a message of solidarity, rather than violence).

IMHO-- in our Through-the-Looking-Glass nation, where the Doublethink is delivered by catapult, the answer is not "bigger balls." We have professional broadcast hatemongers accusing us of being the haters; a hijacked administration using terror to war on terrorists; and a national dialogue reduced to screamfests on TV and in public. Oh yeah-- and an electronically nullified election system with no substantial corrections in sight.

Might makes right is not working. If an image of a fist represents solidarity and defiance, let it be one that looks proud, not homocidal.

[patricia92243]

41. I wonder if we could get a better graphic and show it to Skinner and he

would use it instead of the one we have now.

[omega minimo]

42. Possibly-- or the question of macho male dominance duking it out

with macho male dominance may be a lost cause......................

Today I opened a thread in Articles & Editorials about Bush knowing about the Plame leak, and there were several DUers "joking" about "blondes being raped."

It's all of a piece. It's discouraging. It's why people leave DU.

Which means DU and the Democrats lose the multiplicity of voices and the variety of viewpoints. Crude macho bullshit repulses the participants who might offer more considered and creative solutions than "FUCK YEAH."

:hi:

[freeplessinseattle]

43. Yes, thank you, I was thinking how to respond and you did it

better than I could. my first reaction when I saw the fist was dismay, even though I'm well aware of the history.

[omega minimo]

51. Your sig line says it all

B-)

[Lecky]

39. Huh?

I don't see any problem with clenched fist graphic...at all.

What do you guys propose would be a good replacement?

[jonnyblitz]

45. a hand holding a teacup with a pinky extended might work

better and be more appropriate for you prissy folks. :eyes:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

52. How about bunnies and daisies?

[omega minimo]

60. Bunnies with cigars chainsawing daisies!

:bounce: :bounce:

[omega minimo]

59. How bout a teacup with a middle finger extended?

A compromise.

:smoke:

[rasputin1952]

46. No problem w/it at all...It is the universal symbol of solidarity...

and one realizes that a fight not necessarily be physical to be taken on. We are in a war of ideology, a war that will be won by the thinking citizens of this nation. The fist is a call to rally around the cause, not beat someone death.

Just like Uncle Sam rolling up his sleeves, this is a sign to show we have work to do...:)

[CWebster]

48. Strength is not violence.

By accepting the Right's framework, it is inappropriate for the Left to represent any image other than a limp wrist?

[libhill]

49. Yawn -

here we go again - "aww, gee, let's not do, or say, or picture anything that might offend the repukes and neo-cons." But if those pricks advocate open violence agaist gays or pro-choicers, it's o.k. We have to get shed of this wimpy ass Mr. Nice Guy attitude, or we'll never win another fucking election.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

50. Right on.

If we are too timid to even adopt a symbol that might make us look tough, then we're screwed.

[Coexist]

53. "there is a feeling like the clenching of a fist"

that graphic always reminds me of this JT song:

Let us turn our thoughts today
To Martin Luther King
And recognize that there are ties between us
All men and women
Living on the earth
Ties of hope and love
Sister and brotherhood
That we are bound together
In our desire to see the world become
A place in which our children
Can grow free and strong
We are bound together
By the task that stands before us
And the road that lies ahead
We are bound and we are bound

There is a feeling like the clenching of a fist
There is a hunger in the center of the chest
There is a passage through the darkness and the mist
And though the body sleeps the heart will never rest

[pilgrimsoul]

54. I do feel that the current graphic looks somewhat hostile

But I don't necessarily have a problem with a clenched fist. I feel that a cluster of 6-8 arms raised together with clenched fists would look much better. A cluster of arms of all races would represent diversity and the raising of them all together would better represent solidarity. I just think it would get the idea across better, without turning people off. That huge in-your-face fist kind of gives off an "uber-militant looking" impression. We want to be the party of inclusion, not the party of anger. Just my 2 cents.

[bunny planet]

55. You must not have been around in the 60's. The raised clenched fist means

solidarity. I believe the Black Panthers used it as their salute first.

[wli]

56. look at who used it

Those who have used it include many you wouldn't want to be associated with.

All indications are that something worse than McCarthyism is coming. Be careful not to taint yourself.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[enigmatic]

61. No

It's perfect.

[greyl]

62. Imagine the fist is gripping *'s raisin sized testes. nt

[rasputin1952]

63. You are being generous... I would go w/BB sized testes...

and he gets testosterone supplements from Babs...:evilgrin:

[Gold Metal Flake]

64. Uh oh. Geuss I'm marked.

Punch through the lies. I think I'll keep it.