so....isnt the penalty for treason death?

[Lerkfish]

just checking.

[Vickers]

1. Technically, it wasn't treason....maybe espionage

:shrug:

Espionage can carry the death penalty, too.

[genius]

20. Technically it was treason, not espionage.

Check the definition. It fits for treason but it doesn't come close for espionage.

[Vickers]

21. Yeah, I did before I posted. Thanks for the suggestion, though!

I used the Constitution's definition of treason ("shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort").

Espionage seemed like a more likely fit (from Wikipedia, "the practice of obtaining secrets (spying) from rivals or enemies for military, political, or economic advantage.)

Hope this helps.

[Politicub]

2. I think it is

Not that I support the death penalty. But if there ever was a valid reason to use it, treason in a time of war is it.

:popcorn:

[Drifter]

3. I think if you read carefully ...

only Democrats can be convicted of crimes.

Silly.

Cheers
Drifter

[Deep13]

4. Treason:

Waging war on the U.S.A. or any state OR giving aid and comfort to the enemy. Must be in the presence of two witnesses.

Yes, it's death.

[napi21]

5. I doubt Fitz will ever be able to prove treason or espionage.

IF you read the law, the leaker has to "KNOW" the agent is covert. There is no way I can think of to prove what someone has in their brain. If Karl admist that he knew Valerie worked for the CIA, but he thought she was an anylist, how would you ever PROVE he knew more than that?

Now I think Fitz can easily prove purgury IF KArl made conflicting statements to the grand jury when he testified 3 times in the past. Perhaps even obstruction. But don't get your hopes up about treason.

[Lerkfish]

6. I wasn't limiting it to Karl.

If Fitzgerald has MORE than we know about, and can prove a conspiracy to blow a cover for punitive reasons, thereby jeopardizing espionage efforts, the white house becomes guilty of treason, IMHO.

The point I'm thinking about is, IF Karl is found even remotely close to guilty on this, and drags others in, I'm thinking no neocon is going to willingly die. I foresee a massive internal bloodbath, either literally or figuratively OR a mass pardoning action.

The thing is, Can a president, who may be implicated in the actual crime of treason, pardon other agents of that treason?

[napi21]

7. As far as I know, as long as he's Pres. he can pardon anyone but himself.

The only way he would loose that ability is if he were impeached and removed from office first.

[Lerkfish]

8. If so, that's totally WHACK.

Essentially, that makes it possible for any sitting president to commit ANY heinous crime or work with conspirators to even overthrow our own govt. or ransack the treasury and simply hand his cronies a "get out of jail free" card if they get caught. Since the cronies are pardoned, there is no leverage to get them to testify against the evil president, so he skates as well.

surely, the founding fathers considered this possibility....right? .....anyone? ....buehler?

[murielm99]

11. Think Iran-Contra.

Bush the elder did exactly that. He pardoned all the people indicted and convicted in Iran-Contra just before he left office.

He was guilty of plenty in that scandal. Maybe some of those pardoned would have talked if Bush one had not taken this action.

[Fiona]

16. There's no obvious obstacle to pardoning himself, either

it's never been done, but there's nothing that seems to prevent it.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

19. Yes, but since junior has never pardoned anyone in his life

maybe his automatic response will be to holler, "FRY HIM...heh, heh...heh, heh, heh."
We can only hope.

[beboplives]

9. Exactly

I tried to make this point last week, but some so called legal expert called it a open/shut case. I don't think so on this specific issue either. What we know, and what we can prove are different things. I am glad to finally see them spinning in the wind though. I hope this group admin. trip to Africa drops some more necks in the noose. It would serve them right for practicing the politics of revenge.

[pgh_dem]

12. You don't have to get inside Rove's brain. All you need to do is prove

that he was aware of Plame's status before he talked to Cooper (and/or other reporters).

Since it *should* be proven (eventually) who let Rove know about Plame's status, it will likewise be proven when it occurred.

Beyond that I see it as a simple matter of proving that he deliberately did not seek input from CIA on Plame's status (no record of requests), and that his reckless disregard for whether or not Plame was undercover could render the *knowingly* clause moot, if there is (as I suspect) a protocol of obtaining clearances from affected government entities before releasing *any* information that might affect their mission. That avoidance (illegal in itself) would be seen as intent, as far as intentionally attempting to avoid a predictable answer.

[Catherine Vincent]

10. If Karl Rove is found guilty of Treason, he shouldn't be put to death.

I don't believe in the death penalty.

[rasputin1952]

13. Neither do I, and I find it ironic that if someone in this administration

could be sentenced to death, how they would squeal of his innocence and portray the DP as barbaric; after using it at weill against the wishes of the majority.

Besides...if it were possible to see Rove get the max alternative, life in prison w/o parole, it would be nice to know he would be there to relive 'the glory days', day after day for some 10-20 years...:evilgrin:

[LibDemAlways]

14. Two high school classmates of mine

were convicted of espionage back in the late 70's - selling classified information to Russia. Their story was the basis of the movie "The Falcon and the Snowman." One, Daulton Lee, was sentenced to life. The other, Chris Boyce, to forty years. Boyce later escaped from prison and supported himself by robbing banks. When he was caught and returned to prison, he received an additional twenty-five years - sixty-five in all.

Today both are free men. I guess espionage isn't what it used to be.

Given Rove's connections, I harbor no illusions about harsh punishment. I just hope the bastard is forced to resign in disgrace.

[XemaSab]

15. The last time I suggested this

the post got yanked.

[Lerkfish]

17. not suggesting it, just getting clarification.

I'm against capital punishment, myself.

I just was interested in the resulting dynamic, if that were true.

[XemaSab]

18. Yeah, I wasn't, uh, suggesting it either... yeah

I'm also against capital punishment, but fantasy violence keeps me sane.