Interesting article yesterday regarding origin of insurgents

[joeprogressive]

It was based on a joint study by Israel and Saudi Arabia and it showed that a vast majoriy of the insurgents entering Iraq have never been involved in terrorism in the past but their hatred has been fueled by the occupation. Something most dems knew already but nice to see it published as a research study. This pretty much destroys the conservative talking point that the Iraq invasion is decreasing terrorism. Bush has been their best recruiting tool ever.

Anyway, sorry I don't have the link but if somebody could post it I would appreciate it. It ran in the Houston Chronicle (buried in the back), but I don't know the original source.

[pelsar]

1. er joe.....

the link would be interesting mainly because Saudi Arabia has absolutly no ties to israel whatsoever....nor israelis or jews are even allowed on sacred saudi soil....

beyond that, its very clear that the newer suicide bombers etc have never been involved before in terror, whats missing is why they are so full of hatred...enough to go and kill hundreds of innocent iraqi children and other non combatents....and for that answer you'll find in mosques of saudi arabia, pakistan, France, syria, iran......hate is taught.....and there is no excuse for teaching hate..none whatsoever

[CWebster]

2. Oh, yeah, invading and occupying a country

destroying infrastructure and culture, slaughtering thousands upon thousands---yeah, that's really spreading the love.

[pelsar]

3. and thats why

the suicide bombers kill iraqis....am i missing something here?...why do they hate iraqis so much...since its seems that most are coming from outside of iraq..and they are traveling so far and long, they must really really hate those iraqi children to want to kill them so badly.

who taught them to hate so much.....

[CWebster]

4. Generally target Iraqi police for obvious reasons

I guess they care as much as we do about collateral damage.

[pelsar]

5. no its not collateral damage....

when you blow up a gas station, a market, friday afternoon after prayers........besides that...the iraqi police are IRAQIs...in case you didnt notice......those suicide bombers are killling IRAQIs.....they seem to hate iraqis in every from shape and color..and they are coming from all over the globe just to do that

[CWebster]

6. Iraqis seen as working in league with the Occupiers

It is war. People die in war. It is what war is all about. Death and destruction.

I guess you were expecting the Iraqis to roll out the red carpet and strew the attacking soldiers with flowers and sweets after we finished shock and awing them?

[pelsar]

7. never said that.....

the fact is that today the suicide bombers are simply killing iraqis....be they policeman, kids, people coming back from prayer etc.

it doesnt make a difference what the political view of the minister, grocery boy, small time merchant, police officer...a suicide bomber whos kills them has been taught enough hate to travel across the globe to kill these people. He is crossing countries entering a country illegially just to KILL IRAQIs

if hes got a problem with the infidels....there are more than enough americans, brits etc whom they can attack...the point is they have chose to kill the citizens of iraq instead...and that can only come of being taught to hate

[CWebster]

9. Broken record

People are in the way while they target Iraqi proxies who are more accessible than US soldiers themselves.

You really have to see this whole thing in context of the US Invasion--not as some isolated occurrences.

[pelsar]

10. oh i get it...

they cant kill americans so they kill iraqis. Iraqis who just are proxis...yes those proxies at gas stations, those proxis at markets..etc.

i see the whole picture and what i see are people who who hate so much that they dont care who they kill...i see people who teach hate to impressionable people so that they will go out and kill whom ever gets in their way.

i see the larger picture, the global one...I m afraid its you who are looking for excuses for people who come from all over the globe to kill children at market places....and no they arent "collateral damage"....from the numbers those civilians are the targets.

people who teach hate, people who hate enough to go out and kill kids on purpose have no excuses...and those to excuse them are just being foolish cheerleaders....only they're cheering violent death.....

[CWebster]

15. Yes, I see what you are saying

only Iraqis are filled with hate, hate, hate. And our presence in Iraq is justified because they are filled with hate.

But you are right, we came a long way with our billion dollar guns and killed so many that we don't even keep count, and swept them up and tortured them, and break down their doors in the middle of the night and reduce entire cities to rubble and destroy their infrastructure, their culture, their history, their humanity, not to mention looting their oil and poisoning their environment--and look how unappreciative they are at our godly expressions of love! How dare they strike back those hate-filled less than human animals.

Gotcha loud and clear.

[Name removed]

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[seaglass]

12. Read the article. They've found that most of the foreign

fighters are Sunnis targeting Shiites.

[Name removed]

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[CWebster]

35. Got any links?

The ones in London were British citizens and why does it have to be anything organized? Why couldn't it just as easily be an isolated group acting independently of some terrorist network?

But in your estimation of "some sick folks"--don't forget Timothy McVeigh. Good white boy of the Right.

[dajoki]

45. i got a link

read this. i won't say anything one way or another. form your own opinion http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/14/AR2005051401270.html

[Kraklen]

13. So when the U.S. bombs weddings...

collateral damage or no?

By far the most civilian casualities in Iraq are killed by Americans.

[pelsar]

14. thats not the situation today.....

whatever america did is now in the past.....the situation today is that most of the killing of civilians is now being done by people coming from all over the world just to kill iraqis....you dont see something wrong with that?

more so according to the article:
"going to Iraq because they considered defending Iraq a must for every Muslim to go and fight," said Rita Katz, director of the Search for International Terrorist Entities Institute in Washington and an Iraq native."

they seem to be confused...they are going to iraq to defend islam...by killing muslims....somebody has been taught to kill.....and to justify the killing

[Kraklen]

16. Sounds like you don't really care about Iraqis being killed.

Since you're apologizing for the American massacres.

No sir, most of the people being killed in Iraq are being killed by the U.S. forces.

Moreover, those civilians being caught in the crossfire between U.S. forces and Iraqi insurgents (the vast majority of whom are Iraqis btw) is entirely the responsibility of the United States. Those children who were killed while U.S. forces used them as human shields, for example.

[pelsar]

17. the subject is not the americans....

the subject is the targets of the suicide bombers.... and who they are

[Kraklen]

18. The subject is Iraqis being killed.

Given that most of them are being killed by American homicide bombers, I'd say that the Americans are very relevant.

[pelsar]

19. now you've confused me..

whats an american homicide bomber?
but anyway....read the first subject article...thats the subject

[Kraklen]

20. Here's one.

[Name removed]

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[Kraklen]

23. By their own confession...

the U.S. troops are handing out candy to children to use them as human shields.

This was covered in an article linked by several DUers in a thread on friday. I didn't bookmark the thread, and cannot access the archives.

But I'm sure there are DUers with the link that will be happy to help you.

[pelsar]

25. Handing out CANDY!

wow, somebody here doesnt know much about what happens on the ground in those places....soldiers hand out candy etc simply because it puts a smile on some of the local kids faces.

but then i guess it one of those things where you either have to have an open mind to what soldiers do or have been in those situations....

[Kraklen]

26. Not according to the troops...

who admit it was to keep bombers from attacking them.

A particularly cowardly jester.

[pelsar]

27. you gotta link?

cause its pretty hard to believe since neither kids nor old folk ever stopped a suicide bomber....and that seems to be pretty much common knowledge....

[Kraklen]

29. Looks like the Iraqis disagree with you.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1002-01.htm

I'll look for the link where the US troop admits it. I suspect another DUer will beat me.

Kids and old people never stopped Americans from firing into crowds, or bombing buildings. Why would you expect them not to use kids as human shields?

[Name removed]

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[Kraklen]

30. If a troop is handing out candy in a middle of a war zone...

and those kids are killed in the crossfire, the troop was responsible for that kids death.

[pelsar]

33. the environment....

a crossfire happens during a battle.....when walking on patrol, civilians are all around, its quite natural AND HUMAN, to give some candy to the kids in the area.....

since a particular patrol is not alway surrounded by kids, a suicide bomber could easily wait until the patrol moves on before blowing himself up.....those that dont obviously are interested in killing iraqis as much as anybody else....to the point of targeting the iraqi muslim children

[Kraklen]

36. Again...

the people who were actually there, the Iraqi civilians who you claim to care about, disagree with you completely.

[pelsar]

37. what do they disagree about?

the kids were there, the soldiers were there...and the suicide bomber who saw the kids..blew them up too....intentionally

[Kraklen]

39. And the Iraqis are blaming the U.S. troops

for using the children as human shields. And the U.S. troops are admitting they're using children as human shields.

So why are you pretending otherwise?

[Name removed]

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[Kraklen]

44. And if I post them?

Will you believe them?

The confession was discussed at DU, last week, the day the most recent candy bombings occurred. You're perfectly welcome to look that up yourself. That's as good a reference as any link.

Given you ignored the other link I suspect it doesn't really matter.

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

49. now that was funny....

No doubt there was someone with a gun there saying, "reach up for the candy, or we will shoot you".

well i guess to some it "sounds about right"......boy i guess the soldier probably has some candy in one hand and a hand grenade in the other....

[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

40. minor point...

human shields that "dont work"...arent really human shields now are they.....they only can be described as such if the attackers "respect the lives of those "human shields"...which is obviously not the case. (especially since those human shields are actually the targets)

so they cannot be human shields

mycatmelvin..i doubt you'll get your "link"....its doesnt exist

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[pelsar]

24. mycatmelvin...

i suspect what we'll get is some vague reference to kids being killed by a sucide bomber with americans in the vicinity....and that then will be defined as "the americans using the kids as human shields".

the point being i think its hard for some who were against the invasion to understand that the situation has now changed and that it is now iraqis that are being targeted by others..

[Name removed]

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[dajoki]

48. i'm not taking sides...

but i recommend this book for atrue understanding of the situation. you can page through it online but worth entire read. http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0884198847/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-7666049-6554439

[seaglass]

8. Link to article here...

I think it was separate studies that came to the same conclusions, not a joint study.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/07/17/study_cites_seeds_of_terror_in_iraq/

[joeprogressive]

32. Hopelives, thanks for the link and the correction

I was working off memory, which is never a good idea. To pelsar, just b/c two countries don't have political ties does not mean it would be impossible for them to work together on a research project. Anyway, two independent conclusions that state the same thing is strong evidence that this administration is creating more terrorists than they are eliminating.

[pelsar]

43. joe....

honest mistake....but my knowledge of saudi arabia with its attitude toward israel is far more than mere "no political ties"...but anyway the article was both interesting and informative.

[Name removed]

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[CWebster]

50. The only question is

who exactly jacked it?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0602-02.htm

[pelsar]

51. and the article states..

"In Hillah, south of Baghdad, where two suicide bombers killed dozens at a demonstration Monday, the second bomber followed the fleeing crowd"

"followed the fleeing crowd"...now that sure sounds like "proactive kill as many iraqis as possible "