Hillary sucks

[socal_dan]

"There is no way to legislate against reality. Outsourcing will continue." - Hillary Clinton

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC01Df03.html

She means to tell me that in a country that's changed laws allowing women to vote, where segregation was once ended, that we can not provide protection measures for computer programmers?

Oh come on, I know the history and laws of the country better than that. Laws and rules are changable and protectionist measures have existed and continue to exist. What campaign contributions inspired THIS comment from her?

While some of this nations best and brightest technology workers are left without employment or working jobs they hate or are otherwise low paying, and while Hillary collects $200k a year as senator and goes on fancy trips funded by who knows what corporations or governments - she's going to bypass some us nerdy folk as the government has provided protection for the mundane jobs of steel production, wine production, automobile production, and countless other things time and time again.

I know she's a lawyer, but there's no need to lie to me and tell me it's impossible! It is a disgrace to see the Democratic Party provide protection for Union and Corporate special interests and neglect this strong domestic field of bright people and waste their talents and energies on meaningless jobs.

For this and other reasons (including Bill's recent "stay the course in Iraq" in the face of better plans I've heard from knowledgable sources), I will no longer be a member of the Democratic Party if Hillary is our candidate in 2008. It has nothing to do with her being a woman, and it has nothing to do with the Right Wing lies that have recirculated about her. It has to do with how she time and time again carries out her politics in what appear to be a stupid, exagerrated, and over-zealous fashion which are not well thought-out.

[evlbstrd]

1. She and Bill are DLC.

The Repub-lite wing of the party.
A Hillary prez candidacy came up at one or our recent meetups. The consensus was: don't.

[Check12]

2. As Michael Moore has said

"Why would I want a fake republican when I could have the real thing"

[Garbo 2004]

3. they won't legislate because corporations will continue to bribe congress?

That's the real reality.

[punpirate]

4. Well, she should know that the US government...

... subsidizes outsourcing with tax credits, and has just passed a huge tax giveaway laughingly called a "jobs bill" that allowed corporations to avoid a high percentage of taxes on repatriated profits held overseas.

Yes, outsourcing may continue. That, emphatically, does not mean that the government should subsidize that activity with the taxpayer dollars of people losing their jobs to that outsourcing.

[TheFarseer]

78. Yes, exactly what I say

If corporations want to go overseas, we can't legally stop them as of right now. It is the GOVERNMENT'S job to try and make them not want to go overseas with tax incentive and whatever other incentive they think might be effective. If they are not trying to stop outsourcing, out government is not doing it's job - PERIOD

[dolstein]

5. Point to a single bill in Congress that would put an end to outsourcing

I'm not talking about half measures, like tax incentives, or restrictions on government contracters. I'm talking about a ban on outsourcing that's airtight. Surely one of your left-wing heroes has proposed one.

[socal_dan]

7. What would that prove?

The lack or existence thereof proves nothing.

If that's what you're looking for, look for it yourself.

Besides, reading congressional records are really not my job at all, more for one of a Senator looking to promote conditions in her or his own country rather than placate the corporate overlords who are looking for more profits for themselves at the expense of the peasants.

[papau]

19. smile - outsourcing does not always mean overseas - and Hillary is correct

that "outsourcing" will not end because of a "law" - since such a law could not be written under our Constitution.

[radwriter0555]

6. Perhaps your grasp on reality isn't as global and is perhaps more self

serving than is realistic.

This IS a global world. We can now reach anyone 15,000 miles away in a single instant.

To imagine that a singular job would always be of privilege and rank is perhaps a bit myopic. We live in a computer world that has absolutely enabled the global communications that allow us to reach across the globe in a nano-second.

What you fail to realize is that in order to predict the work force needs of the future, look to your local trade schools. What are they pushing in the education factories? Medical field work and computer technology. Trades that once paid highly now pay an average income.

I use the trade schools as a means to determine what to invest in for the long term. For example, Nano technologies. I'm going to make a massive long term profit keeping pace with and investing in promising cos that are developing nano-technologies.

So to imagine one crappy senator wants to save your job when in fact it can be done in India or china is, as I said, no offense, a bit self-serving. YOU need to look to the future to determine your role in it; don't rely on those who indeed see accurately the directions our global world is advancing on and criticize them for encouraging it.

I see NAFTA as a potentially great thing if it isn't abused by the republicans. Take your own role in NAFTA and find a niche, it's there somewhere...

[socal_dan]

8. Oh puh-leeeeze

1) I was pointing out that Hillary's statement was factually innacurate.

2) How do you promote not treating programmers with protection when many industries have done so and continue to do so? It's okay for computer programmer's to be treated like shit while protecting, well, a bunch of goddamned "Wine Manufacturers"? For pete's sake.

3) What the hell does this have to do with NAFTA?

4) There is a reason, above and beyond protectionism, that Free Trade can at times be a bad idea (This has nothing to do with the original post, but since you seemed keen on the topic, I'm _informing_ you):

a) Slave Labor or (not so extreme) poor working conditions. If you allow massive amounts of products from countries which have lousy working conditions (and that is why they are able to sell their products cheaper), you are encouring them to continue their way of mistreating workers. If you think that's a good thing, I wonder what you think existence is for!
b) Environmental Conditions. If the products are cheaper because environmental regulations are less strict or nonexistent in the country from which products are imported, then you are promoting and encouraging the continuance of the destruction of the environment by those producers.

5) Your post was belittling and quite divergant from the topics of which I spoke (which were mainly outsourcing and Hillary). I know that some people scream, yell, and insult in a debate until the other side gets up and walks away rather than being around such things, but you really provided no factual basis to refute my points. (Not to mention bringing up complicated non-sequitors that make you sound intelligent because they are "intellectual topics" - such as NAFTA, nano-technology, _YOUR_ investments, and "think global dude, it's cool man, we are the world, homey.. I'm gunna buy my environmentally harmful and slave labor products and then sip my African coffee with with Italian names cuz it's GLOBAL man" - regardless of the fact they did nothing to refute my topic, indeed, just your musings to try and attempt to sound smart)


The points I were making, which you really did nothing to refute, were (since you've probably forgotten by now):

a) Why is outsourcing fine while other fields of less expertise protected?
b) I dislike Hillary as a presidential candidate.

[radwriter0555]

22. Senator Clinton's statement isn't inaccurate at all. It's reality.

My post was precisely about what you spoke. You just don't like what I have to say about it.

This is economics, business and trade. It doesn't matter what is being outsourced, no one is genuinely protected here in the US; you have to make your own way and find your own niche in the changing times that are rushing towards us. Whether as a vintner or a shoe maker or a computer programmer, your goods and services are no less important than anyone elses, but they have to be better... A winemaker can't produce the same goods in taiwan as he can in Napa Valley, for one example, but a computer code can be written from anywhere in the world... and shoes can be made anywhere in the world.

You have to be one step ahead of the game in order to survive and compete. You can however, insist on applying ethics to the changes while effecting them. There are sadly too few companies who apply ethics in global trade, but enforcing working conditions and environmental regulations is something we can indeed demand from the companies we patronize.

Politeness aside, this valid concern over outsourcing is the result of Americans being too fucking stupid to create their own work and jobs and being instead so lazy as to rely on big daddy corporations for their work and benefits. It's the factory mentality that is crippling this nation, and the lack of entreprenuerial spirit that is further ruining the nation by whoring off to Walmart and closing down the mom n pop businesses that were the life-blood of the towns and communities. Think of it as the corner drug store being outsourced to Walmart. The industrialization of the USA over a century ago set the standard for factory mentality and set into action a way of life that is hard for Americans to give up, especially given no other options. People there don't know how to make do for themselves...

That aside, my point is that you can't stop globalization which is a component of outsourcing and why SHOULD we? Instead of worrying about not having a computer programming job protected like it's something special, find your own niche so you don't have to rely on politicians for your welfare. Or better yet, change horses and find a new way to make a living from your skills. The concept of one job for your whole life isn't very adventurous.

NAFTA is about outsourcing. Surely in all your grand wisdom you realize that NAFTA is an economic agreement inclusive of those programming jobs that you're all teary eyed over?

Again, this issue comes down to some people's inability to have an imagination and to look to what good the future can become, instead of what harm it can do... It IS about NAFTA, it IS about a global world. It is about one lousy politician being realistic enough to know these things and to not lie about it. I don't care for her either, but it doesn't change the fact that she's right.

[CWebster]

23. radwriter, eh?

Sounds like sink or swim, survival of the fittest warmed over Ayn Randian boilerplate. Ever notice the free market campaign to "get big gubbermint offa our backs" served to deregulate the excesses of the corporate class at the expense of the common good and small business interests?

An old libertarian yarn about teaching a man to fish is truly out of touch with reality when there are no fish in polluted waters.

[mitchum]

44. What do you expect from an investment class jackal?

Other than self-serving excuses from a precious shareholder?

[radwriter0555]

52. I worked my butt off from age 16 until 39, when I made a huge score in the

tech boom thanks to insider friends and family information. Churned it, taught myself day trading. Cashed out all my stocks when bush stole office and invested it in the LA real estate market and made a killing there in the last 5 years. I just moved to the south of france and am opening up a couple of different businesses here.

I'm a socialist, feminist, liberal, democrat single parent high school drop out who never made more than $20 an hour working as a roadie, in various jobs in the entertainment industry and then for a small local government in southern california.

Investment class? Dude, top ramen was my best friend until about 3 years ago. I still keep it in my cupboard to remind me of what can happen tomorrow.

I didn't get here by wishing. I got here by paying attention. Just because I am a socialist doesn't mean the rest of the world is, or ever will be. Not with the fuckers in the GOP in charge for the next 15 years or so. It all could possibly change sooner if you guys get your act together and overthrow the US government, but we know that's not going to happen. Oh wait, better yet, wait for NATO to march the streets of DC... that'll be worth waiting for, right? I suppose it depends on how long you want to wait.

I've been there and done that. I don't sit around waiting for shit to happen, I make it happen. I don't have a lot. I have enough. That's all I've ever wanted.

[mitchum]

55. Why you're a bona fide Horatio Alger!

Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps...or something

[radwriter0555]

68. the boot strap thing is highly overrated. I gamble; I took a long shot and

won for once and had the sense to let it ride.

I don't play poker or black jack anywhere near as good. But apparently I know how to score on real estate prospects.

[CWebster]

65. Interesting account but interesting still -

that you would choose the South of France--that commie stronghold, where even the gap between rich and poor shrinks rather than expands. So, the culmination of the American dream is socialist France?

That puts a new spin on it.

Hey, I am happy for your success, but don't expect your feet to be kissed. Other people work just as hard and try their best, and maybe through no fault of their own, the doors don't open and opportunity doesn't knock...and doors slam instead ..."thanks to insider friends and family information" gave you a head start on that playing field, where someone else is swinging with a broken bat and the umpire calls him out.

Over the weekend, I saw a gallery of paintings--including one exceptional painting by a breathtakingly gifted inner city kid. I will never forget that kid's talent and I give him credit for pursuing it despite all the roadblocks he has just to pay rent.

[radwriter0555]

67. my husband's family home is here, and his family history is rooted here

from the time of their service to William the Conqueror.

It seems like a safer place to raise my kid than the USA these days.

[Booster]

73. I think you're one smart cookie who was paying attention all along

and I say good for you for figuring it all out. I have also made a lot of money in L.A. in real estate (also a feminist, high-school dropout) and for the last 5 yrs have been making a little in the stock market and in some cases a lot. We'll straighten out our government and maybe you will consider coming back. We need you. As for outsourcing, I believe a bill needs to be introduced that will cause corporations to pay more taxes as apposed to none and when it's not in their best interests to have their corp headquarters in the Cayman Islands, they will return to the good old USA. Halliburton is an example. If a bill was introduced that would not allow any American corporation that does not pay taxes to get gov contracts, they would be back here in a heartbeat. It's backwards right now.

[idlisambar]

84. day trading and real estate investment...

...can work for an individual but it is hardly a formula for broad-based prosperity. It's great that you made it for yourself, but politicians have the additional responsibility of looking out for the interests of their constituents.

[radwriter0555]

53. Then go where the water is still pure and clean. Or... you can sit around

crying about it while nothing ever changes.

[rucky]

41. Maybe outsourcing can't be stopped...

but we don't have to help it along. How about a little fight to save your consitiuents' jobs before we race right to the bottom?

[Imagevision]

56. Hillary actually believe's she's a shoe-in for 2008 - Hillary a wee-bit

too little to late. We need some new talent - new blood, I'd go with Obama over Hillary in a heartbeat! Boxer makes Hillary looked parked when it comes to actions VS. words.

[TheFarseer]

81. I'd laugh my ass off if we

start turning back imports from China for bullshit reasons like they do with us. Might make some U.S. companies think twice about manufacturing in China if they can't get half their stuff into the U.S.

They fight dirty and we have to too.

[sendero]

18. You should consider..

... the FACT that the country does not need 200 million nanotechnogists, or 200 million ANY AGGREGATE OF CUTTING EDGE JOBS you can name.

It sounds good on paper, but it won't stand the light of day. When rank and file Americans cannot make a living good luck selling your nanotechnology.

[Armstead]

30. That's the same line of BS that was originally used to sell us out

Radwriter,
You're repeating the same nonsense that has been use to justiofy every attack on workers for the last 25 years. Unfortunately DLC Democratds are even better than republicans at selling you a cup of urine and saying it's ice tea.

The public was conned into going along with stuff like NAFTA with promises that the manufacturing jobs that were being lost were not "good" jobs, and that things like high-tech, phone banks etc. were the "new economy" that would replace them with something better.

Now those same "new economy" jobs are being shipped out. And all of trhe people who followed the advice to "get new skills and adapt to the new oppotunities" are the ones being sold down the river.

It's a load of bull that is natural for Republicans to push. But it's revolting when centrist Democrats go along with it and push it too.

[sadiesworld]

35. A nation of entrepreneurs, that's us.

:eyes: And let's not forget the monopolization, un-affordable health-care, and loss of "fresh start" protections under the bankruptcy bill that will make it tougher even for the few.

Hell, I'm wondering how much longer it will even be permissible to start a business under the WTO.

Purge the DLC.

[Armstead]

37. Neo-liberals are helping to squash true entrepreneurship

By giving a blank check to the corporate elite, they are also selling out smaller businesses who can't possibly compete with the resources of Big Corporate Deep Pockets.

[HughBeaumont]

70. That's another thing glossed over in the "ownershit society" claptrap . ..

You'd be hard-pressed to find a start-up nowadays that can't be performed by a conglomerate for dirt-cheaper, even for obscure professions. Definitely not like it was in the 70s-90s. VCs FORCE start-ups to offshore now.

Sometimes I wonder whether the DINOs and neo-lib get-along apologists listen to their own foot-shooting advocacy. How can they say "get skills for the 21st century jobs" (the phrase itself a neocon talking point) when we don't even know what those jobs ARE? How can they tell America to educate ourselves in technology when they keep laying off workers or offshoring tech jobs?

[Douglas Carpenter]

9. once upon a time I believed in that free trade stuff too

I have lived (part of the year) in the Philippines for the past several years. At first, I thought that "free trade" (an Orwellian term for those who understand what its really all about)was a good thing that would boost the standard of living for the Philippines and the whole developing world. Reality is very, very different.

A few years back my partner announced to me that his family had started a garment business which subcontracted to an exporter who made baby clothes for Woolworth's and other low-cost retailers in the U.S. When I expressed my reservations about the whole thing he assured me that we would be providing much needed jobs for the people in our barrio. Well, okay, let's give it a chance.

After several months I realized that we no longer had neighborhood people working in our garments business. The money and the long hours could not support even a subsistence lifestyle in metro Manila.
My partner informed me that he had no choice but to hire only desperately poor people from deep in the provinces. I knew that both him and his family were working 120+ hours a week. What I realized then that shocked me was that we were barely breaking even--With about 20 full time employees plus my partners' family working 120+ hours per week--at most a profit of about $100.00 per month --at most.

I wondered if this was the problem with the company we were subcontracting to. Were they to blame? When we inquired with several other companies--I realized that "our company" was actually better than most.

I looked around for a subcontractor (I should mention that about 90% of work outsourced to the developing world is domestically outsourced again) who was making an acceptable profit.

The only subcontractors I found who were getting by were ones operating on bonded labor who hired very poor workers on binding contracts--who worked in Dickinonian conditions at slave-labor salaries.

This is the reality of "free trade". If the Thomas Friedman's of the world would take a walk around the block from the five-star hotels they stay in--they would know that.

This is my own personal experience with "free trade"---Douglas Carpenter

_____________________________


_______________________________________________________


A True Voice of Opposition
--A Voice for Working People
--Not the Elite--
http://www.bernie.org/issues.asp

Who is Congressman Bernie Sanders?

Read this article and watch the short video clips:

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[socal_dan]

10. That's interesting.

I didn't know outsourcing was "outsourced" again to turn it into the hands of the "real" slave laborers.

I'd kill myself if i had to work 120 hours per week!

I spend $100 per month on beer alone.

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. yes--that is how it actually works

Typically a central factory which may or may not actually pay minimum wage in the country they are in-in the Philippines that is 180 pesos per day-about $3.27 per 10-12 hour shift- yes things are cheaper there--but not even remotely comparable to that much cheaper; will "outsource" to local cottage industry--the workers are paid by piece rate--but an average 12 hour shift might yield about $2.00. The owners of these small cottage industry are responsible for buying and maintaining all the equipment--frequently they also have to house and feed the workers--Like I said they only subcontractors I am aware that were getting a ahead at all were the ones willing to impose bonded labor and slave like conditions.

In the Western world this is all a bit shocking. For the vast overwhelming majority of humanity--it is ordinary life.

[Disturbed]

12. The Clintons are pigs at the Corporate trough...

just like the Rethugs and most Dems.

[AmericanDream]

13. Unfortunately, that is true & has been tragic for the party & the country

[Douglas Carpenter]

14. well, I won't go quite that far

Ultimately, I do believe that the neocons who dominate the Republican Party are definitely more reactionary than even our own DLC types.

I recall a cartoon I saw once with a picture of John Kerry in a heroic pose with red, white and blue rainbows in back of him--And the words "John Kerry--The lesser evil--we will go backwards less fast".

Still even the corporate Democrats are going to be slightly progressive or at least less reactionary at least 25% to 50% of the time; as opposed to never. Take for instance, Clinton's horrid "welfare reform". As awful as it was--if it had been up to Newt and his band of crazies--the entire welfare state would have been destroyed and children on welfare sent off to re-education camps. It is a terrible state of affairs that we have to settle for the lesser draconian--but until we can create a true progressive-social-democratic majority--I'm afraid we have to work with what we have.

However, at some point the Democratic Party must decide who's side are they on.

_________________________


_______________________________________________________


A True Voice of Opposition
--A Voice for Working People
--Not the Elite--
http://www.bernie.org/issues.asp

Who is Congressman Bernie Sanders?

Read this article and watch the short video clips:

http://www.davidsirota.com/2005/04/who-is-bernie-sanders.html






http://www.iwtnews.com/

ABOUT IWTNEWS
Independent World Television is building the world’s first global independent news network. Online and on TV, IWTnews will deliver independent news and real debate from professional and citizen journalists -– without funding from governments, corporations or commercial advertising. Using the web to organize and raise funds across borders, IWTnews is building an international movement for democracy.


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[sam sarrha]

79. NAFTA has lost 11,000,000 jobs and many factories that wont come back,

[Mary 123]

15. Outsourcing

I don't claim to be an expert on the global economy or outsourcing; but it seems to me something that can't be stopped(I don't see why the companies who are outsourcing are getting tax breaks to do so though). I do wonder how tax breaks to the top 1% will stimulate the American economy in this world of globalization. Wouldn't tax breaks to the middle class be a better economic stimulator as these are the people who are more likely to start small businesses within our our own country? I really don't know much about it; but if it's as simple as the old trickle down point of view, jobs in India don't trickle down to Americans. Oh sure we can buy cheaper products; but with what money? We can't even afford health care. We can't be the consumer country without jobs.
I do know one thing though without a doubt. This administration is much less than patriotic and I don't trust them to do something about the struggling middle class or get rid of employees who undermine this country's national security.

[Disturbed]

16. Sen. Clintion;s claim of Health Care was a fraud.

It was all slanted in favor of the Insurance Corps., HMOs and Health Corps. She is a fraud. A Repub. pretending to be a Dem. Bill was and is a charismatic hukster and fooled a lot of people into thinking that he was a Dem with the Middle Class, Working Poor and the Poor as his "feel your pain" Dem. Bullshit!

[papau]

20. Hillary wanted single payer - Bill wanted easy passage and was

promised such by the insurance companies if he would only include Ins Co and their profits in final bill.

We - the insurance folks - lied to Bill.

But then we did the same to Nixon when Nixon wanted Universal Health!

But you are correct as to the 93 plan - it saved no money BUT it did bring near Universal Health at the same cost we were paying.

[earth mom]

29. Exactly-Hillary is a FRAUD-Time to wake up and smell the coffee!

Her dear hubby Bill is the one to blame for NAFTA-of course she supports it and so do all rethugs just like them. I'm certainly no economics expert but I don't have to be to see that jobs are paying less and less, that well trained, well educated people are out of work, and that the assholes in charge in Washington are NOT protecting the people of this country who they were elected by and work for! We are their bosses-but instead they serve the corporate bastards!

People need to wake the f*ck up and see that first it's some strangers job, then it's a neighbor, then it's a friend or relative and before you know it's YOUR JOB on the chopping block. This country is going backward, not forward. You need look no further than the escalation in the number of workers who work for low pay and zero benefits. AKA Walmartization.

How soon before we are known as a third world country?!

[Frederik]

38. Working-class buying power

has been sinking in the US since the early 70s, which is an absolute taboo subject to even mention in the establishment media. Just as the increasing concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a small elite comprising about 1% of the population, and the decreasing chances of socal mobility, is not going to be mentioned on the evening news. Look there's Michael Jackson, doesn't he look weird!

The destruction of America's manufacturing base commenced with Paul Volcker's austerity measures around 1979-80, and it was without doubt intentional. This is the man who said that "the living standard of America's middle class must be reduced". The Corporatocracy doesn't want to pay American wages for someting they can produce with slave labor in Thailand. "One world" means that wages and living standards can be pushed down all over the world, while the corporatocrats consolidate their wealth and power.

[sadiesworld]

40. "evening news...Look there's Michael Jackson, doesn't he look weird!"

Thanks for the chuckle, Frederik--it was definitely needed this a.m.

I can't imagine why there isn't more of a learning curve on this board about the reality of corporate globalization. :eyes:

[Frederik]

47. Too many people have been reading Thomas Friedman

and swallowed it without the requisite huge pinch of salt.

[HughBeaumont]

71. That guy nauseates me.

Needs to be drop kicked in his Shoe-Brush moustache. "AMERICAN JOB OFFSHORING IS AMAZING!! IT WILL CHANGE THE WORLD!!" All the while ignoring the US tech workers who now can't pay their mortgage or feed themselves . . .

[CWebster]

17. true.

[CWebster]

21. sounds hauntingly familiar:

'But no one is going to confuse Hillary Clinton, who has cozied up to the conservative, corporation-funded Democratic Leadership Council, with a progressive reformer. She remains the conventional inside-the-Beltway pol who angrily shouted, "Russ, live in the real world," after U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis., tried to explain why Democrats should embrace campaign finance reforms he had proposed.'



http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0605-07.htm

What Clinton regards as "reality" is questionable from the Democratic perspective--and therein lies the problem--So many advocates of centrist-style posturing lack core principles to promote in the public interest for the common good.

[Frederik]

39. "reality", "the real world"

Damn, that woman is annoying. Hillary wouldn't know the real world if it bit her in the ass.

[SaveElmer]

24. She is just stating the obvious...

I'd rather have someone tell me the truth than blow sunshine up my skirt about it, and make promises that cannot be kept. She has obviously thought about it and has some realistic ideas to help mitigate the short-term damage it will cause.

There is no way to prevent outsourcing except through an out and out ban, which would likely do more harm than good. It's an interdependent world, and outsourcing programming services is no different than any other industry. Americans will simply have to adapt.

As a matter of fact, I believe we will see a natural decline in outsourcing for a couple of very simple reasons. Some companies are finding it to be too inefficient. For certain organiziations the need for speed is mitigating against it. It is often too hard to adequately convey requirements, and shoddy code is often the return. The time difference makes consultation difficult between the programmer and requirements manager.

Secondly, as more companies do outsource, you are already seeing a demand among Indian workers for a higher wage, and alot of turnover in Indian companies. The alleged benefit, lower costs, are being eaten up by this trend.

So, exactly how would you Hillary haters prevent this scourge?!

[CWebster]

25. I'd rather have someone tell me the truth...

Yeah, she and Bush seem to agree more often than not, about the "truth".

[SaveElmer]

26. Hardly...

A simple reading of her voting record will show that to be a false statement.

I grant you she is no flaming liberal, and I certainly haven't agreed with all of her stands, but she is well within the mainstream of the Democratic Party, and I would have no problems trusting her as President...just as I trusted her husband.

[FDR33]

82. Nice to see

someone else living in reality. I thought it was just me for a few minutes.

[Skinner]

27. This is a discussion forum for Democrats.

Isn't it possible to come up with a slightly more informative and thoughtful title for threads like this? C'mon.

[mitchum]

45. But it's true!

[CWebster]

58. Well, then she should present herself as one

rather than just call herself one- as if labels were little more than an available opening for political office.

Yeah, yeah, the big tent and all that--but what is the point of a Democratic party as an opposition party, if there is so little opposition?

I RESENT that BushClintonBushCLINTON is foisted upon us....in case no one else notices.

[Frederik]

64. Hillary is the establishment's choice for 08

She won't rock the boat.

[SaveElmer]

75. Exactly right...

Unfortunately the "Hillary haters" don't believe she deserves to be called a Democrat.

[Sparkly]

28. The rightwing has cast her as a radical liberal, yet she's villified on DU

Same thing was done to John Kerry by many.

I think in some regards, we need to think globally. We can only go so far in protectionist policy, and I think Kerry was right to propose ending outright incentives for overseas manufacturing.

It seems to me a better focus for our country would be in innovation toward new industry, especially regarding renewable sources of energy. As we did with computer technology, this could be a boon both for our own country and others. In other words, I think we should invest in NEW work for the "nerdy folk" rather than lock the gates and keep the rest of the world down.

Just my two cents.

[Catherine Vincent]

31. Bush sucks.....

much more.

[Frederik]

49. Sure

There are degrees of sucking. Of course I would prefer Hillary to Bush, but I would still prefer any other Democrat to Hillary, Biden, Lieberman and the rest of the DLCers.

[Frederik]

32. "legislate against reality" ???

God, I can't stand that woman. I have absolutely zero respect for her. I'm sure she learned that line from her new friend, Newt Gingrich. That condescending tone of hers makes me want to puke.

[Sparkly]

33. I think she's right.

Unlike older industries, technology is easily exported. We can't (nor should we) prevent countries like India from developing and competing, and we can't be the only workers in the world with jobs.

Ideally, we help other countries grow, and in turn they help us as well. We compete, and we trade. That's not to say that sweatshops or slave wages should happen, of course; but as other nations gain economic power their workers, too, are lifted up.

I honestly don't hear a condescending tone from her. I don't think she's our best candidate for president in 2008, but I think she gets a bad rap on DU.

[sadiesworld]

34. How were "we" preventing India from competing?

There's no "us" involved here. Perhaps corporate America doesn't like competition from Indian companies, but you may want to explain to me how Microsoft offshoring promotes competing tech industies in India. :crazy:

The only competition is for JOBS. And Hillary's JOB is to promote the welfare of the American people not corporations. If she can't figure out how to do that, maybe she needs to be OFFSHORED.

[Sparkly]

48. Did I say we were?

I didn't mean to.

So how far should we go? Should we make it illegal for India to learn and develop our technology? Should it be illegal for companies to outsource, or should we tax it heavily, or establish an international minimum wage?

Do Americans deserve jobs more than people in other countries? Is there a balance between a company's consideration of its consumers and shareholders vs. its employees, and if so where is that balance?

I don't have the answers, I'm just saying I think it's a complicated issue and that laws won't prevent the proliferation of technology in other countries.

[sadiesworld]

60. "Do Americans deserve jobs more than people in other countries?"

We deserve politicians who think so.

[Frederik]

62. It's not a plus-sum game or even a zero-sum game

The unregulated global market place is a negative sum game for everyone but a tiny elite. The Burmese refugees who live their lives in concentration camps in northern Thailand making sweaters for Tommy Hilfiger while crapping their pants because they would get fired if they went to the toilet, are not going to be lifted into comfortable middle-class lives by trickle-down mechanisms.

We're trying to prevent the proliferation of technology to other countries with the TRIPS agreement under the WTO. We don't want third world countries to be allowed to do what South Korea and Taiwan did, copy American and Japanese technology and sell it cheap on their own markets, paying modest but decent wages which empowered the Koreans and Taiwainese to buy the very same products they were producing, while protecting their own industry against foreign competition with significant import tariffs and quotas. This way to development - the one that works - is now closed, by the WTO. Not surprisingly, the policies promoted by the world Bank, the IMF, and the WTO and NAFTA, have never helped lift a country out of poverty - au contraire, they have helped impoverish countries like Mexico and contribute to the current wave of desperate Mexican refugees coming to the US. But hey, Chrysler gets to pay much lower wages to their Mexican workers than they did in Detroit, so what's not to like?

The Euro-American oligarchy wants third world countries to provide the cheapest possible labor in order to create the largest possible profit margins. It's fairly simple and uncomplicated. Auschwitz was established by a consortium between IG Farben of Germany and Standard Oil of New Jersey, to produce artificial rubber and gasoline using slave labor. Presumably the Rockefellers didn't know about the Holocaust, but no one should suspect them of caring about the welfare of the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and dissidents who helped their profits skyrocket.

The sweat-cities of Indonesia are not as bad as Auschwitz, the workers even get paid (though usually not enough to rent a room, so they are often homeless and sleep on the streets the few hours they aren't working). Maybe that's progress, sort of. Some crazy maniacs would still say that it's wrong, that Western corporations shouldn't be allowed to use human beings like livestock in this way (well, actually it would be considered abuse to treat animals in the same way), but those silly folks don't realize that you can't legislate against reality.

[HughBeaumont]

36. Bringing up one middle class while destroying the other is WRONG!

And make NO mistake about it, that's EXACTLY the point behind offshoring. PLEASE don't buy into the DLC/Libertarian/Repuke spin. Read Outsourcing America and you'll see why the rhetoric behind the practice touting it as a "win-win" doesn't even begin to hold up.

People NEED to recognize that this is a problem and a zero-sum game which favors the wealthy and drops liquid manure on the American worker. I get so sick and tired of hearing the "rising tide lifts all boats" theory, EVEN from Democrats like Hillary. It's a faith based, unproven CRAPSHOOT which the house will win every time. There's absolutely NO concrete evidence that this practice works. All it's doing is making people stay the hell away from engineering/science/computer careers, drying up your talent pool and creating "the next big thing" offshore. And trust me, that's not at ALL good for this country or it's workers.

[Sparkly]

50. What would you suggest?

What laws would you propose to stop outsourcing?

[HughBeaumont]

69. First of all -

The indignity of training your replacement as a requirement for severance should be made illegal. This isn't "knowledge transfer", it's corporate nose-rubbing, demoralizing and pointless frat-boy-esque hazing horseshit.

Secondly, it isn't as black and white as simply passing a law to stop it. Several measures need to take place not only in government, but in education and the business world as well.

First, American companies have to concede that outsourcing indeed represents a problem for the worker. Simply brushing aside the argument as "you're either free-trade or protectionist. It's THAT SIMPLE" is foolish: offshoring has clear winners and losers that need to be defined not based on hypothetics and theory (which is how everyone is doing it now), but reality.

Next, the US government needs to begin to measure the magnitude of the problem. Currently, no one really knows how many jobs have actually been offshored because corporations either refuse to report it, period, or announce proposed offshoring at a later date after the cuts happen, which means either more or less jobs will be leaving.

US visa policies should also be reviewed with an eye toward protecting America’s labor market. Too many corporations exercise loopholes to get around the current Visa restrictions, particularly regarding L-1s. Visa abuse is rampant within many corporations in the race for cheaper labor here and abroad.

Meanwhile, the US should put more effort into helping and retraining workers displaced by offshoring. Our country has an atrocious record when it comes to redeployment of US workers at a comparable salary and skill set. We don't give near enough help that is needed for the cruelly downsized. The worker has to completely fend for his or herself once fired, and this usually means developing a skill set for which they aren't fit or able to afford training for. Unemployment insurance is painfully inadequate. We spend billions on pork, corporate welfare and oil wars yet we shit on the very people and resources that makes the nation work.

Asking the worker to figure out for themselves what the "next big thing" will be and get training for it is so patently absurd, as is the "re-training" canard. Let's look at you're own argument - we cannot stop Indians and Chinese from getting an education or forming their own companies. But the fact remains that their cost of living will never, EVER match ours. Therefore, their workers wages will be, at the VERY most, 1/3rd our own wages, which is still too cheap to ignore.

What I'm saying is that there should be far less emphasis by business leaders to adopt the destructive and short-term way of thought. Just because it's "good business" doesn't make it "right".

From Outsourcing America's authors:

"As for the offshoring of government work, while falling short of calling for a prohibition, the writers point out that public agencies need to be more judicious in striving to keep taxpayer-supported jobs in the states. "We should recognize the enormous value of keeping certain types of government procurement onshore, especially in a time when we are far from full employment. In terms of high technology, creating strong preferences for American workers not only is in the national interest but is in the interests of national security."

In the long term, the writers feel that tomorrow’s workers need to be trained to have lifelong marketable skills. "If, indeed, our young people are facing a future in which they will have five careers rather than five jobs within one career, then adaptability is the desirable attribute for students." That means developing transferable skills that can be applicable to a new career, whatever it might be. "

One Free-Trade apologist lamented "People, we HAVE BRAINS." Doesn't mean a hill of beans if you ain't got the capital or resources in which to use them. Joe Sixpack isn't going to invent his way out of this mess as he did in the 70s and 80s.

[Dr Fate]

42. And she refused to adress the DSM as well.

"safe" politics will not get my vote or support.

[Triana]

43. Hillary is NOT a Liberal...

...I know the GOP/Freeps/MSM want to paint her as such but her and Bill are Moderates, at best.

This type of comment is the epitome of that fact. I've had no disillusions about them so I'm not surprised.

I do NOT want her to run for Pres. 1. She won't win; 2. She's not Progressive. If she was, she would not be saying crap like this. She'd instead be trying to protect American jobs and workers.

I am not a member of the Democratic Party. I went Indy in 2001 or so. Still vote Dem mostly, but I will NOT vote for a woman if I don't like her stand on policy and I don't like Hillary's. Like SoCal_Dan said, it's not because she's a woman or because of the shit the Repubes have smeared her with. I really, really don't like her stand on several policy areas, this being one of them. I have a great deal of respect for her, but will not vote for her. Period.

We need a PROGRESSIVE President. Hillary ain't it.

[Larkspur]

46. Let's outsource Hillary's job!!

What would be her answer if we vote to outsource Hillary's job?

Here's some web sites about stopping the outsourcing of jobs:

http://www.nojobsforindia.com/

A few simple ideas to stop outsourcing, loss of jobs
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/virgin/134913_virgin14.html

[Sparkly]

57. The Seattle article raises some good points

that don't involve legislation, fwiw.

[ComerPerro]

51. Boy, this is a productive thread

[Larkspur]

54. Remember Hillary wants to increase the size of the Army so outsourcing

high paying jobs and leaving Americans, who had those jobs, with a choice between being a Walmart greeter or a tech in the Army is her plan to increase the staff of the Army so that her corporate sponsors will have an army to use to protect their global interests.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

59. I'm on the verge of agreeing with you.

I can't get out the vote for a candidate I don't support.

I won't do that for another Kerry run, and I would be hardpressed to do that for a Hillary run. I suppose we ought to give her a chance, since she is a dem, but I don't much like what I see.

[liberalfriend]

61. she'll never get my vote

nope not ever, never never never.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

63. What saddens me is that it doesn't seem to matter what we, the core, want

They know how to pull the right media strings and get the big money from the right sources in order to get elected or at least give the Pubs a run for their money. This is the type of thing that leads to lower voter turnout. It's like, why bother - it doesn't matter what I think and nobody ever works for me anyway.

[liberalfriend]

66. I respectfully disagree

This is the beauty of the primary system. What we the core need to do is really pool resources and strengthen ourselves as a voting block in primary states. If you ever take a look at the amount of people who actually vote in those things it is astounding how small it is. We the base need only to work now to get the type of candidate we want to win the primaries which in turn will get us the leader we need.

[ladeuxiemevoiture]

74. That's a good point.

But I'll take it shaken, not stirred. :D (Just kidding)

[SaveElmer]

76. Well I'm sure Ralph Nader will be available...

Feel free to vote for him...

btw: Who did you vote for in the last election?

[gulliver]

72. Agreed. She was on the front page of USA Today today.

The question was "Is she ready to be Commander-in-Chief?"

If she doesn't make it absolutely clear that she never intends to run for president, I will lose all respect for her. The best she can hope for is a vanity candidacy, and all that would do is hurt the party. She needs to end this ridiculous speculation.

[Capn Sunshine]

77. all moot.

No one wins anything until we fix the e-voting system.
Although, there is a certain core group that would argue Hillary is part of the controllers.

So let's re-phrase that; no one will know for sure if their own votes were counted correctly until we fix the voting system in this country.

[union_maid]

80. I sent an e-mail

I'm in NY so at least one of her staff has to read it. I fully expect a form letter back.

What's incredibly frustrating is that if a politician addressed this issue seriously, with fervor, creativity and committment, they'd have the swing vote in a minute.

[Disturbed]

83. "This is a discussion forum for Democrats."

No, it is not!

This is the Democratic Underground. There are quite a few Independents, Greens, Socialists, even Libertarians on this board.

The top tier of the Dem Party do not represent the Middle Class, The Working Poor or The Poor of Amerika. There is scant opposition to the Corporate Coup that has taken place in Amerika.

The only hope to save Amerika from becoming a Serfdom is to work on the state level and elect Governors that at the very least won't outsource state jobs and Mfg. Multi-Corps are no longer Amerika based. Corporate Amerika has decided that Amerikan workers are expendible.

The Clintons and their ilk are part of the problem, not the solution.