Shocking Dean quotes, weird how he switched

[ShaneGR]

Great article on the changing face of Dr. Howard Dean. There are a lot more surprising quotes from Dean in the article, but didn't want to break the copyright rules.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/politics/campaign/25TAPE.html

{snip}
The time was 1998, when Republicans were on the verge of impeaching President Bill Clinton. Howard Dean, then governor of Vermont, was unhappy with Mr. Clinton and disgusted with the Republican leadership in Washington. But he did find a Republican to admire.

"George W. Bush did very well," Dr. Dean said of the Texas governor, who had just been elected to a second term. "Why? Because he is talking about his issues in a civil, thoughtful way in getting his point across."

{snip}
He also appointed judges whom he considered conservative, even though their stiff sentences resulted in overcrowded jails. "I've put much more conservative people on the bench because I've wanted longer sentences, and I'm getting those longer sentences," he said in 1997.

{snip}
When a reporter noted to Dr. Dean that other countries had nuclear weapons but the United States did not attack them, Dr. Dean replied, "Other countries do not have leaders like Saddam — and possess nuclear weapons and have leaders like Saddam Hussein, who clearly is a great dangerous, unpredictable person."

[mdmc]

1. shocking

middle voters, here come the doctor!

[molly]

2. Interesting - so, what's in his sealed records?

[oasis]

24. Dr. Dean, "YOU HAVE THE POWER" to release those records.

[w13rd0]

3. It is fairly remarkable how "radicalized"...

...we've all been by Bush's extremism in the White House. I know I've suffered this fate, comes as no surprise to me that Dean has as well. Oh, and so has Clark. I don't know about some of the other candidates, they might still want to "work with" (read: get steamrolled) by Bush. Some learn their lessons, some don't.

[AP]

20. At least Clark's excuse makes sense: trying to be a good soldier.

Dean's doesn't. His praise for Bush is more wrapped up in the notion that as governor he seemed pretty enthusiastic about the same sort of wealth and power transfer to the wealthy programs that Bush was enthusiastic about in TX and DC.

[MarkTwain]

4. Not Surprising...

... his campaign has been nothing but smoke and mirrors. And, the mirrors are starting to crack. Big Time.

As if anymore were needed, this is just further substantiation of why he is the last candidate this party should want.

While talking about his statements, let us not forget this morning's headline of ""Dean Says Iraqis Lived Better Under Saddam" (which, irrespective of the nuanced content of his remarks which follow, is so politically and strategically naive as to be beyond belief) that is being well discussed in LBN :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=331212

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Praising Simian Boy......

Pass me the flight bag.....

[patricia92243]

5. Any other old, outdated, and out-of-context quotes from pubs?

[Uzybone]

7. Professional flip flopper

but thats not why Bush will steam roll him in the GE. He just doesnt know how to carry himself and many of his positions are impossible to defend to the average joe.

[ulysses]

8. A politician changing his mind. Someone call the Enquirer.

:eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. For The Love Of God

He praised George Bush....

At least Wes Clark had an excuse....


If he told his fellow officers he was a lefty he would have been drummed out of the Army....

[ulysses]

14. yes, and

Al Gore voted against reproductive rights when he was in the Congress. Hey, did you hear the one about how Dennis Kucinich was responsible for the Cuyahoga River fire? You should ask sgr2 about that one.

If he told his fellow officers he was a lefty he would have been drummed out of the Army....

I doubt that. At best, what does that say about the courage of his convictions?

[sangh0]

25. uly, do you know the difference between 3 years and 10?

That's how far you have to go back in Dean and Gore's career to find those flip-flops.

Gore flipped more than 10 years ago.

Three years ago, Dean was complimenting Bush*

[TLM]

27. When did Bush get elected to his second term as Gov in TX?

That was more than 3 years ago.

And that was before he was in the White House f-ing things up.

Don't you find it a little dishonest to act as if Dean saying something nice about another gov, had anything to do with Bush's actions as president?

[sangh0]

28. Boy, uly

don't you know that Bush*'s actions as Governor were enough to criticize Bush*?

Don't you find it a little dishonest to act as if Bush*'s term as governor was unoffensive to Democrats?

And you didn't address my point on the differences in how far back you had to go to find a Gore flip-flop compared to Dean.

[ulysses]

31. LOL!

That was TLM, not me. Pavlov applauds you, though. :D

ed. for spelling.

[ulysses]

29. to tell, sangha, what's your (completely objective) cutoff point

for when past stances become irrelevant? Is there some kind of sliding scale? Were Gore's past positions more relevant four years ago, or do your standards change with the candidate in question?

Three years ago, Dean was complimenting Bush*

And more recently than that, Kerry was voting in favor of his war.

[ulysses]

32. hello?

so quick on the trigger when it wasn't me, but wherefore art thou now?

Should I come back in an hour or so? ;-)

...fumblefingers today, I am...

[ulysses]

36. I'll have to catch up to you later, got some errands to run.

:hi:

[sangh0]

39. I like lunch

There is no cutoff, but there is a qualitative difference between one flip-flop over more than ten years, and the amazing "evolution" Dean's policies have undergone over the last three years.

IOW, there's no comparison.

[ulysses]

40. thanks for the answer.

[sangh0]

44. Still no response from you

on why Dean would compliment Bush*'s deplorable record as Gov of TX.

[ulysses]

48. you didn't ask, ace.

Honestly, I don't know. I also don't think it's proof that Dean is EEEEvilll!, but I know some folks do. C'est la vie.

[progressivebydesign]

42. I forgot, hating Bush is a job requirement for future Presidents n/t

[sangh0]

45. How could you?

You must be one of the few Democrats who has forgotten

[adadem]

9. I'm glad I found a

thread where I could let out some steam...seems every other thread is glorifying him. Spoke with our Spanish friends on Saturday, they live north of Madrid. When shrubby was sElected they couldn't understand what we Americans saw in him....how so many could vote for such a fool. Now it's happening again...thanks to one unnamed candidates performance. He's an embarassment.

And I don't blame the media...he did it to himself.

[hey2370]

15. Just curious

Ever watch an entire speech and Q & A session with any of these candidates?

Dean is impressive in that setting, and would be impressive representing America as President. He has a reasonable stance on many issues that Dems care about, and he is able to express those stances intelligently. He is definitely not a rah! rah! guy like Edwards (talking up a lot of fairy dust prescriptions for our myriad problems), or a look-at-what-I-did-40-years-ago-but-not-what-I-did-last-year guy like Kerry.

Comparing him with the idiocy of George is really specious. It shows that you don't do your homework. Maybe it's not just the media who are lazy?

[Mobius]

10. agreed

*rolls up sleeve and screams*

[LiberalBushFan]

12. I'll take someone who praised Bush a long time ago

and who now hates him over the candidates who used to fight but nowadays pander to him and vote for his wars.

[drfemoe]

13. Fairly balanced Article

... As early as 1997, speculation began that he might run for president in 2000. His reasons were close to home. "Because I really think this country has not paid enough attention to kids and families, and we have done a really good job in this state, relative to other states," he said. But, he added, "I have no idea if I have higher aspirations or not."

At the same time, the tapes show several flashes of the Dr. Dean who has emerged on the campaign trail. His message seemed unvarnished from the start. In his opening State of the State address in 1992, he said his budget cuts meant that "the pain for Vermonters will be real."

During Mr. Clinton's impeachment in 1998, Dr. Dean took a now-familiar jab at Washington and at Mr. Clinton's Republican accusers, saying, "Who would want to listen to those windbags pontificate about morality when they are so incapable of illustrating it themselves?" ...

[onecitizen]

16. So what??

I heard Dean say in an interview that when they were Govs. together that bush was OK. But when he became President the man changed. He could not support the man he saw in the WH (as opposed to the man he saw as Governor). No big whoop. He had a change of heart based on the change of the man from Gov. to Pres. And further more, why is it such a sin to have a change of position on some issues? I dare say we all have changed our minds on some things based on life experiences and changes in the world. Someone who CANNOT change their minds, even when the facts are glaring them right in the face, frankly, scare me.

[AP]

19. Because even I could tell that TX was a stepping stone to DC for W,

and praising him as a governor was facilitating the leap to the White House.

Also note, Dean manipulated that "captives" law to make it attractive for an Enron subsidiary to move to VT and make millions of dollars.

Dean also had the ear of energy deregulators and privatizers and tried to pass the "CA style" deregulation in VT.


Hello people. Can we wake the fuck up now?

[TLM]

34. Yet Edwards VOTED WITH BUSH for most of the last 3 years...

So the worst shot you can take at Dean is he once said something nice about W while he was gov of Texas... yet Edwards voted for no child left behind and the war.

So who has done more to help Bush f-up this country?


"Also note, Dean manipulated that "captives" law to make it attractive for an Enron subsidiary to move to VT and make millions of dollars."

In fact most of those laws were put into place before Dean became gov. and this was all taking place before anybody knew about the crap Enron was pulling behind closed doors.




"Dean also had the ear of energy deregulates and privatizers and tried to pass the "CA style" deregulation in VT."

Yeah, in order to allow small alternative power providers to get on the grid... and when Dean saw the potential for abuse, he backed off it because the risk was too great.

[progressivebydesign]

43. Totally reasonable rebuttal.. thanks!

Has anyone else out there worked with a person, and they're okay. Then.. that person gets promoted to a higher position and turns into a complete ass??? It happens all the time. This is no different. I didn't realize that once we form an opinion of someone we must keep that opinion for the rest of our lives, lest we be called flip/flops.

[John_H]

17. Stop! Dean was a flaming liberal as Governor! Wasn't he? uh...

please, he was wasn't he? I mean.....please please please he was wasn't he? Pleeeaaaaaseee.....?

[Rich Hunt]

21. article from last week

Last week, someone on DU posted an article from the Chicago Tribune about Dean. The headline was misleading. If you read further down in the article, it quoted a liberal in Vermont saying that Dean may be a centrist there, but he would qualify as a liberal elsewhere.

[Logansquare]

22. He's too liberal! He's too conservative!

I see him getting spun both ways, which I think is more of a problem for the press, since they become confused and disoriented when not dealing with stereotypes.

[AP]

18. More recently, at Howard University...

...when a student asked him how he felt about high incarceration rates for African Americans, he replied that we shouldn't get too weepy and liberal about this issue and that his plan was to have more drug treatment programs.

Huh?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. Gee no wonder his minority support is lukewarm.

[TLM]

35. And surprise, you provide no quote and no link!

Why, because you are clearly distorting what he said.

Which was that getting all weepy and liberal over the problem won't fix it... we need to take action to change the factors causing the problem.

Care to provide a quote and a link? I bet not.

[AP]

47. Here's the link and the quote. Enjoy!

http://www.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Oct/980.html


"Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean brought his campaign to Howard University yesterday for a town hall-style meeting with students and faculty -- and a chance to prove that he can win over some of his party's most loyal constituents.
...

Dean comes from a state with a predominantly white population and has relied on the Internet -- which is used disproportionately by white and relatively well-off individuals -- to attract support, leading some of his rivals to question whether he can connect with minority voters. His speech came just hours after eight of his Democratic rivals penned a letter, criticizing Dean for supporting a plan to hold Michigan's presidential primary on-line. That, they said, would effectively disenfranchise many minorities there. The letter was signed by every candidate except retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark.

Dean told the crowd, as he has often said, that minorities do not need white politicians lecturing them on race -- and for much of his speech, he did not. ... Only near the end of his talk did Dean focus on minority issues. ... Later, after the applause had subsided, one student asked if Dean would be willing to choose a black running mate. The governor demurred, saying it is too early for him to name possible vice presidential candidates.

{He didn't demure when he was pretending that he asked Clark to be his VP}

Another student wondered what Dean might do to lessen the number of African Americans in prison. Dean warned that 'we can't get all weepy and liberal about this,' but promised to treat substance abuse as a medical issue, rather than a 'criminal problem,' and to fight racism in sentencing.

It's way more complicated than that, Howard. Lisa Duggan, in the Twilight of Equality, talks about how the debate around putting black men in prison is a fascinating lesson in how the right wing was able to stamp out what was, until the early 70s, was becoming an effective left movement for liberal redistribution of political, economic and cultural power that stood to benefit more than just black Americans, but the working class, women, and everyone. The government has been able to cast people fighting or responding to economic injustice as criminals. That's why members of the most economically oppressed demographic groups are in jail disproportionate to other demographic groups. Drug use is a symptom not a cause. Even sentencing rates are symptom not a cause.

Real Democrats look at this issue and see that it's one of spreading the benefits of society more broadly and giving people real economic opportunity. Republicans think of it as an intended circumstance that breaks up coalitions which might push for downward redistributions of power.

[killbotfactory]

23. Acknowledging that Bush did well in an election is a sin

Burn the witch!

"Still, in that same news conference, he seemed inclined to support a pre-emptive attack on Iraq, though only if Mr. Bush provided evidence that Saddam Hussein had unconventional weapons and only if Mr. Bush acknowledged that the war might take as long as 10 years."

Duh.

Saddam with nukes = Bad. War would be justified. Saddam didn't have nukes.

[Snivi Yllom]

26. lol

Sometimes the desperation in the piecing together of these hit quotes is funny.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Your namesake made her opinion known.

And she should know.

[w4rma]

37. I don't see the switch. These quotes still represent his views on THOSE

topics as far as I know.

[MuseRider]

38. Weird how he switched?

I would say that it is entirely compatible with the way he runs his operation. I can appreciate evolution but this is not evolution. His tendency to switch frequently was my first indication that I needed to look elsewhere.

[progressivebydesign]

41. Oh Goody! Another bash Dean (or insert candidate name here) thread!

I want to hear what is GOOD about the candidates everyone else supports. THat way, if my choice isn't nominated, or leaves the primary race, I have a good idea of who I want to support. All we're doing, by posting attack threads on fellow Democrats, is dividing us further... and creating more resolve in those that do support the candidate being attacked. It backfires mostly.

[progressivebydesign]

46. So.. The U.S. used to like OBL, and we financed him...

Are we still required to like him? Because, as with Saddam, he was working with us on the CIA payroll... Are we still required to like them both? Or can we change our mind now? I wouldn't want to be considered a liar or a flip/flopper.