Howard Dean joins the "Cheap Labor Lobby"

[unlawflcombatnt]

In a speech this week given to La Raza, Howard Dean became the latest sellout to Corporate America and the "Cheap Labor Lobby." Today he criticized California's efforts to reduce illegal immigration, as well as bills designed to reduce illegal immigration. He criticized California's minuteman project, as well as the anti-illegal immigration efforts of Colorado's Tom Tancredo, who is very popular with Californians.

His speech was the most disappointing speech I've ever heard from a Democrat. He has simply abandoned working Americans in favor of Big Business and open-border advocates. I had previously been a supporter of Dean. Today he completely lost my support and created a new enemy. I will never utter another positive word about Dean, or defend him again. As far as I'm concerned, this speech makes Dean a complete scumbag. Dean needs to be removed from his position as Democratic Party chairman. He now represents the interests of the few, at the expense of the many. The many being working Americans.

When will Democratic Party elites start representing their constituents, instead of corporate interests? When will the Democratic Party start representing American workers instead of Corporate America? This has got to change. Dean must go! And he needs to take his Corporate Fascist friends with him.

[Fiona]

1. Tom Tancredo is popular in California?

Do you have a link showing that?

Bashing immigrants is a right-wing thing. I'm glad Dean didn't fall for the easy bashing opportunity.

And Tancredo is a nutjob.

[democracyindanger]

55. News to me, and I'm a Californian.

Must be the right wing nutjob Californians that love Tancredo. The OP must talk to a lot of right wing nutjob Californians on a fairly regular basis.

[unlawflcombatnt]

74. Opposition to Illegal Immigration

This is not about Tom Tancredo. This is about the venomous name-calling attack by Howard Dean on anyone opposing illegal immigration. Dean implied anyone advocating enforcement of our immigration laws is "xenophobic" and that they are using illegal immigrants as "scapegoats." Attacking Tancredo is a side issue. Attacking the rest of us, who think our laws should be enforced, is a major issue. Criticizing those who believe we should enforce laws against illegal immigration is not appropriate. Calling us names is completely inapprorpriate. Dean's rant was directed at anyone opposing unrestricted immigration, not just Tancredo and the Minutemen.

[Maestro]

78. The way that most repukes are advocating for "reform"

in immigration is xenophobic. They are following the Buchannan "Put up walls around the U.S." attitude! Pretty soon we'll be banning certain nationalities just like we did in the late 1800s to the Chinese.

[democracyindanger]

92. You're the one that brought up Tancredo

Don't assert things you aren't willing to back up.

[unlawflcombatnt]

73. Tancredo

He was somewhat popular in southern California with those opposing illegal immigration. This was before his recent brain fart about bombing Mecca. That essentially ended any popularity he had previously.

[MaineDem]

82. That's not what you said

You said "...who is very popular with Californians."

Now you're saying his popularity has ended. Two very different statements.

Edited to add your bold text.

[CAcyclist]

111. Wouldn't That Be Bizarre?

Bashing immigrants at a La Raza event?

Tancredo is NOT popular in California except maybe in Chula Vista.

[tx_dem41]

2. One of the things you're upset at H. Dean about is that he criticized...

Tom Tancredo!?! :wow:

Never thought I would ever hear someone say that over here.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

7. Tom Tancredo says we should threaten to nuke Mecca to thwart

terrorist attacks.

I can't imagine why Dean would say anything negative about him.:sarcasm:

Washington - Turkey's foreign minister Tuesday condemned Rep. Tom Tancredo as a "fanatic" as the Colorado Republican's comments about bombing Muslim holy sites in retaliation for a terrorist nuclear strike echoed around the world.

"This was nothing but a fanatic speaking completely personally, irresponsibly and without thought of how far his statements would reach or what kind of problems they would create," Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said, according to Turkey's Anatolia news agency.

and the State Dept. just isn't giving him the love

In Washington, State Department spokesman Adam Ereli stressed in the department's daily briefing that Tancredo's comments were not representative of the U.S. government.

"We periodically see, you know, remarks or comments that are insulting to Islam," Ereli said in response to a question about the comments. "Speaking on behalf of the United States government, let me say that we respect Islam as a religion, we respect its holy sites."

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_2872009

Poor Tommy and now Dean picks on him, too. MKJ

[unlawflcombatnt]

56. Dean

tx_dem41,

My criticism is that Dean clearly implied anyone opposing illegal immigration was "xenophobic," and that such opposition was racially motivated. I'm not overly concerned about his criticism of Tancredo. But I'm very angry about him calling those of us who advocate enforcing our immigration laws "xenophobes" and that our opposition to unrestricted immigration is racially motivated. I'm very angry when Dean starts calling ME names. He is very wrong, and he is a complete scumbag for the statements he made. I don't like being called names for advocating enforcement of existing immigration laws, and I'm not going to be quiet about it. Dean's malicious tirade against enforcement of immigration laws was complete bullshit, and I'm not going to let it slide.

If people here want to play games, and pretend the issue is criticism of Tom Tancredo, go ahead. But I think everyone knows better. I'm not a racist or a "xenophobe" because I support enforcement of our immigration laws. And I don't expect to be called one by the chairman of the Democratic Party.

I don't care who likes my views here. Dean was completely wrong in his tirade, and I'm going to share my opinion of him just as vocally as he shared his about those of us who advocate enforcing immigration laws.

[CAcyclist]

117. Yes, you do sound like a racist and a xenophobe nt

[Mass]

3. Why are you disappointed?

The minutemen are an abomination. The law enforcement people want them out because they complicate their goal rather than helping.

The other thing is that the bill CA passed are useless. As long as you do not go to the source of illegal immigration and strike the people who hire these illegals, you are doing nothing, except making the conditions for these people even worse and contrary to all human rights.

You may think that civil rights apply only to US citizens, in which case we totally disagree. If not, fight so that people who hire illegals are struck very severely, this is the only way.

Thank god, Dean did not fall in the trap. Tancredo is a scumbag.

[IndianaDemocrat]

9. Never Run A Business, Have You??

<<<As long as you do not go to the source of illegal immigration and strike the people who hire these illegals, you are doing nothing, except making the conditions for these people even worse and contrary to all human rights.>>>

Pass SPECIFIC legislation making it LEGAL for a potential employer to question the legitimacy of the Documents presented by a suspected illegal, without fear of a racial discrimination lawsuit, and you END that problem...

In today's world, managers are TAUGHT not to question the authenticity of ANY documentation provided by a potential employee, or you face a LAWSUIT....

You can't have it both ways....

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

16. As a manager, I can say that unless we verify all the documentation

The person will not be hired.

I'm not sure what business you're in, but we are expected to 100% verify citizenship and have never faced a lawsuit when we've uncovered fraudulent documents. MKJ

(I've had it happen twice in 18 months.)

On edit...I mistakenly mixed up whose blog was whose. Never mind my previous edit comment.MKJ

[Mass]

17. well I do

and we need to stop closing our eyes on people who KNOWINGLY hire illegal help because they do not need to declare them and pay payroll taxes. In certain professions, it is how this works and the government knows it.

[Eloriel]

45. And agribusiness is a huge one

But there are others as well.

And yes, the govt is not only very well aware, but complicit. These people are being exploited. And yes, our food will cost more if that stops. But if we're not willing to do that, then we're complicit as well.

We're all living well off of others' exploitation. We get very unhappy with plutocrats over this as it affects us, we need to be equally willing to look at our own usage of slave labor, child labor, illegal immigrants working in sweat shops, etc., etc. When you can buy clothes or shoes and other things for less than you could buy the equivalent fabrics or leather, that's probably your first clue.

[unlawflcombatnt]

62. Yes indeed

Mass,

I agree with you again. Many employers knowingly hire someone with false documentation, knowing that they will have covered themselves against prosecution. The employers are the biggest part of this than the illegal aliens. Employers create the "demand" for illegal immigrants. If employers didn't hire illegal immigrants, there would be no problem with illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants don't come here to collect welfare or use government services, they come here for employment.

Republican-supported measures to cut government services to illegals are of little benefit. Such measures don't reduce the magnet that brings them here -- the promise of jobs from employers who don't mind bending the rules a little. Or a lot.

[Mass]

63. That is a strange turn

Your OP makes the undocumented worker the criminal while they are in fact the victims of scams that make them think they will be able to live a good life in this country.

In addition, I support giving a legal situation to these people who are already here. Throwing them out of the country is inhuman, particularly for those people who have lived there for several years.

[unlawflcombatnt]

67. That's a Completely Dishonest Interpretation

Mass,

My opening statement does not in any way make illegal immigrants the only criminals, and you know it. That's not an honest misinterpretation on your part, that's a deliberate distortion. There is NOTHING in there that implies that. In fact, it was very clear I blamed "Corporate America." That's very obvious from my statement, and not even subject to an "honest" misinterpretation such as yours.

If you want to pick a fight, that's fine. But don't distort what I said to start one.

[Eloriel]

43. Nah, I ain't buyin' that

You two a tag team, or what?

If there are managers being "TAUGHT not to question the authenticity of ANY documentation," you've got a problem, IMO. There's no INHERENT racism in validating documents, but I can see where the implementation might need to be honed a bit (e.g., you don't JUST go after Latinos for your document validating, or question theirs automatically).

Any time someone tells you they are being prohibited from engaging in standard business or personnel practices because of fear of racism suits, you can feel 100% comfortable in questioning THEM and THEIR commitment to racial equality, because that's just bogus.

[unlawflcombatnt]

64. Challenging Documents

Eloriel,

I have to agree with you. The threat of prosecution for challenging authenticity of documents sounds like a cop-out to me. The employers don't want to find out that the documents are false. That would prevent them from hiring the low-wage exploitable immigrants they want to hire. If they actually knew the documents were not legitimate, they'd be responsible for illegal hiring.

[unlawflcombatnt]

57. Good Point

Making it legal for an employer to question legitimacy of documents might help some. But many employers knowingly hire illegal aliens and use their false documents as evidence of the employee's legitimacy. Employers aren't hiring because they're afraid of being accused of discrmination. They're hiring illegals because they cost less.

[unlawflcombatnt]

54. Prosecuting Employers

Mass,

Do you really advocate prosecuting employers, or are you just using that for a comeback? If you are advocation employer prosecutions, I completely agree with you. Employers should be the prime target. That's always been my position. Tancredo said the same thing in the past. (Unfortunately Tancredo appears to have recently gone off the deep end.)

Dean's tirade and name-calling rant against those of us advocating enforcement of our immigration laws is VERY wrong. I'm one of the people he's calling a "xenophobe," and one who he's implying is a racist. I don't appreciate his name-calling, and I'm not going to be quiet about it. He's a scumbag for making those statements, and has made at least 2 new enemies with his rant.

Howard Dean was clearly advocating non-enforcement of immigration laws, including those against employers. He's not only for protecting illegal immigrants, he's for protecting the employers who hire and exploit them. He mentioned NOTHING about prosecuting employers. That's because he is completely against enforcing any kind of immigration law. And anyone who does is "xenophobic."

[LittleClarkie]

104. Indeed, didn't they trip alarms and generally muck the border patrol up

Like we need a bunch of civilian vigilante yahoos out there.

[PsycheCC]

107. That's EXACTLY what we need.

[LittleClarkie]

109. Why stop there then

Take to the streets and do the cops job for them as well. Since crime still abounds, apparently they aren't doing their job.

[derby378]

4. I think you're overreacting here

Besides, I think Tancredo is the Congressman who suggested we should "nuke Mecca" if America is hit with another terrorist attack. Just the sort of man we want Democrats to emulate.

The Minuteman Project is a real joke, too.

[unlawflcombatnt]

65. Dean & "Xenophobia"

It might sound like an overreaction if you didn't actually hear what Dean said. But honestly, it seems like an underreaction to me, because I did hear what he said. I was completely flabbergasted when I heard his venomous rant. I was particularly taken back since I was one of his biggest fans. He lost any respect I ever had for him with his attacks. The Democratic Party chairman has no business calling those that oppose illegal immigration "xenophobic," or claim they are using immigrants as scapegoats. He has no business even suggesting that it is primarily a racial issue. That isn't just wrong, it's very wrong. Advocation the enforcement of existing immigration law should not make you the target of a maniacal rant by the Democratic Party chairman. His criticism wasn't just directed at Tom Tancredo, it was directed at all of us who want to curtail illegal immigration. It was directed at me and my wife, and many other Democrats as well. It was completely inappropriate and inexcusable. Dean has become a complete scumbag in my book. He made a new enemy with the hateful dialogue I heard today.

[idlisambar]

68. Dean's position is simplistic

but Dean is certainly not trying to cater to business interests, he is obviously trying to appeal to hispanics. Dean's position leaves a lot to be desired, and I don't support it either, but I wouldn't take it personally.

[unlawflcombatnt]

70. You may have a point

Idlisambar,

I hope you're right about Dean not catering to business interests. It certainly seems to go against what I'd previously thought of him. But I certainly don't appreciate him playing the race card, like so many others have done, when it comes to illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is a job issue, not a race issue. I definitely don't appreciate him playing up to a special interest group, by criticizing those who want to enforce our immigration laws. If I'd heard him mention anything about employer prosecution, I would have been a little more understanding. But that wasn't on his agenda either.

[Maestro]

5. What?

He criticizes Tom Tancredo, one of the worst racist repukes around and the nutty Minute Men, and you say this is bad. He criticized the bills because they target the wrong people. The people to target are the cheap labor conservatives to whom you have now wrongly attached Dean. I fail to understand your reasoning.

http://www.morrismn.org/mhrc/articles/imgMyths.shtml

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=173

http://www.seattlecentral.org/faculty/dloos/ESLAwareness/FiveMythsAboutImmigration.htm

Please read above.

[unlawflcombatnt]

69. Dean Attacked Everyone Opposing Illegal Immigration

Dean attacked everyone opposing illegal immigration. I heard Dean's speech, and it was the most venomous, inappropriate attack I've ever heard on those opposing illegal immigration. He called those of us opposing illegal immigrations "xenophobes" with the undercurrent that it was racist to oppose unrestricted illegal immigration. Dean stated those opposing illegal immigration are simply using immigrants as "scapegoats." It was complete nonsense. His name-calling wasn't just directed at Tom Tancredo or the Minutemen, it was directed at all who advocate enforcing laws against illegal immigration. It was the most vile, hateful speech I've ever heard a Democrat make. I fail to understand what your reasoning is on this issue.

[Maestro]

77. Cool, I fail to see your reasoning

since you insist on ignoring the fact the true cheap labor conservatives are the ones that want illegal immigration to continue. The only reason they come is not to steal jobs from red-blooded Americans, but because they know they will find work here from unscrupulous big and small business owners willing to continue funding a permanent underclass of people that are stuck in generational poverty.

So let me make this clear to you. Dean IS correct to call the poor immigrants scapegoats and most of the time the fervent attackers ARE xenophoic. Just take a look at the FAIR organization. Complete racist wing-nut freaks. Stop attacking those that are not at fault! They are coming to improve themselves. My mother's family has roots in Mexico. Plus I work with legal and illegal immigrants on a daily basis. The reason they come is to escape an utterly corrupt governmental system in Mexico. There is nothing for the poor and destitute in Mexico; nothing! They come and are willing to work for nothing because it is more than they had in Mexico. If you want to reform illegal immigration, attack the businesses that employ them not the immigrants themselves. That is Dean's message and I share his frustration at ignorant fools that continue to attack the immigrant! Understand now?

Probably not....

[unlawflcombatnt]

98. Another Deliberate Distortion

Maestro,

You "fail" to see my reasoning because you have misstated my position. I am attacking businesses that employ illegal immigrants, and you know it.

Did you miss the part about "Corporate America" in my original post, or are you deliberately leaving that out to make an argument? Employers are the problem, and had you made even a feeble attempt to interpret what I said, instead implying "racism," that's the conclusion you would have come to.

Everyone that opposes illegal immigration is not a "xenophobe" or a racist. Nowhere in my "OP" did I ever directly attack illegal immigrants themselves. In contrast, I did attack Corporate America. Illegal immigrants are pawns of big business and Corporate America. And that's exactly the interpretation any reasonable person would have come to. Of course, you have an underlying agenda. And that's why you've dishonestly distorted the meaning of my statement.

The Minutemen are taking the only action left to citizens or states. Since citizens cannot prosecute employers, the only action left is trying to stop the illlegal influx across the border. It's not a particularly effective method, but it's the only action citizens can pursue.

If you think employers should be prosecuted, why don't you speak out on it and write letters as I have done? Of course, that's a rhetorical question. You don't really think ANY action should be taken against illegal immigration. You don't want to prosecute employers, you just want to make that claim. You just think we shouldn't even have borders, and that anyone who wants to cross the borders should be allowed to, regardless of the law. That's your real position.

And that's EXACTLY the same position taken by the Right-Wing Corporatists that you're really championing. They want unrestricted access to the cheapest labor globally. Heaven forbid the law might reduce access to easily exploitable, low-wage illegal immigrants.

Your response is nothng but a dishonest attempt to argue a phoney position that I never took. You've done this to disguise your real motivation -- removing ALL restrictions on immigration, and giving blanket amnesty to anyone who has broken our immigration laws.

[Maestro]

101. Now look who is distorting facts

Apparently you know me better than I know myself. I am for opening the borders wide open? Wow! I didn't realize that. I also want to give blanket amnesty to anyone who has broken our immigration laws? Wow! I didn't know that either. I even now support Right-Wing Corporatists. Amazing since I detest every radical right winger I know. You seem to think I just sit here and debate without taking action. Wrong. I write incessantly to newspapers, my representatives and my friends about everything that is wrong with this f'd up nation. Just in the past two days I have written to my representatives and local newspapers about Rove, Roberts and a plea to my house representative to support the withdrawal from Iraq resolution being drafted by some members of the House. For the last ten years, I have fought the ignorance that abounds around the issue of immigration so don't antagonize me insinuating that I don't write or speak out as you have done . Here is but one example. It is not about immigration. However, it is about fighting for the language rights of immigrants when they are being truly educated; not just thrown into a room to sink or swim. There is a link to another article at the bottom of this article. It's old. The biographical info is way out of date.

One example of my writing

My problem with your thinking is the way you framed your opinion. You blasted Dean as some sort of sell-out. What? How? According to your logic, since he didn't say, "Close the borders," then he must be a cheap labor conservative. That is a huge leap of faith.

You say you are against the corporate exploitation of these people and that I previously knew that. Uh, okay, whatever. If you are against their exploitation why do you attack Dean for supporting the rights of these people? Have you ever heard of the 14th Amendment? It protects all persons within the borders of the US, legal or illegal. They may have broken laws to get here, but they come to work; not to live on the high hog. Many live peacefully here and cause no problems whatsoever. Since you seem to be an economist, then look at the links that I provided earlier. They show how illegal immigrants are not a drain on the economy and do not take jobs from Americans. They serve a purpose here. This might surprise you, but I am all for genuine reform of the immigration laws. I would love to see a type of Brazero program come back in existence. This would recognize that the US needs the back breaking labor that these immigrants provide. I hear that there are some rumblings of this but I doubt it will get anywhere in *'s administration.

Additionally, I don't like the way you attacked Dean and insinuated that Dean is leaving good ole boy Americans behind. That is really a leap of logic as well. Dean is the only Democrat around that is willing to cut through the bullshit and tell it like it is. The only one that comes close is Wes Clark and he is much more diplomatic. I like Dean's hard-nosed nature. I read the speech. There was nothing there that would make one infer that he is selling-out as you put it. What he is saying is that for the most part the repukes attack immigrants, legal or illegal, for being exactly that, immigrants. That is racist. They (the repukes) know that these immigrants aren't killing the economy and in fact, as you know and have pointed out, they need the immigrant workforce for cheap labor so Dean was calling them out as racists! Simple as that. If they weren't racist, they would say that they need the cheap workforce to make them richer, but that won't play in Peoria so they play on the xenophobic nature of many social conservatives along with the utter racism of the radical right.

That is why I say what I say about immigration. You don't like it. Fine. Nevertheless, never challenge my sincerity when I say that I am fighting for their rights. And never again insinuate that I am promoting some asinine right-wing corporate policy. Never!

[NYCGirl]

79. Here's the speech:

http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/07/excerpts_from_d_1.php

http://www.nclr.org/content/viewpoints/detail/32747/

[Maestro]

95. Quite an excellent speech!

I see nothing wrong with it and how the hell the op construes that has being derogatory to anyone is beyond me, except of course if you drink the kool-aid of the repukes! I am sure more than ever that the original op is sorely misinformed.

[unlawflcombatnt]

105. Speech?

Maestro,

If you find links to his entire speech, let me know. If you think what you've read from the above "excerpts" is his entire speech, you are mistaken. Much has been omitted. And the omitted parts are what I'm referring to.

It's still a mystery to me how people can read the word "excerpt," and see multiple "...."s, and think that's his entire speech. That's why those terms are used -- to indicate this is not the entire speech.

And in this case, those omitted parts are very significant.

[unlawflcombatnt]

102. Another Dishonest Distortion

NYCGirl,

Another nice distortion. Those are selected excerpts of Dean's speech. His disgusting, name-calling ranting was deleted from these "excerpts." Did you happen to notice how many "...." were in those excerpts? Did you forget what the term "excerpt" means?

Again, you have not posted links to his "speech." You have posted links to carefully selected pieces of Dean's tirade. It is completely dishonest to post something like that, and claim that this is his "speech." It most certainly is not. I heard his speech. And he is a scumbag for some of what he said in his speech, which has been conveniently omitted from these excerpts.

Is your real message that we should just have completely open borders, and that we should just throw out all of our immigration laws? Maybe we should just put people in jail who enforce immigrations laws, since they're all racists anyway. That's what you'd really like, isn't it.

unlawflcombatnt

[Gman]

6. How much asbestos can you get together real quick

before the flames start in earnest? Nevermind the fibers.

[bemildred]

8. Have another beer. Have two. You'll feel better. nt

[HereSince1628]

10. I'm not agreeing with anything except that workers are increasingly

frightened of outsourcing.

Personally I think if this continues, neither the DLC or the Republicans will be able to campaign on their records.

It seems to me that Democratic workers, and that means any democrat who isn't self-employed or at least a partner in a business, are becoming increasingly protectionist. At the same time working class republicans are turning their fear toward increasing nationalism.

Consequently, it seems like the globalization is going to be a dirty word by 2008

[madfloridian]

11. LOL Tancredo? The one who wants to bomb Mecca?

Ok.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. You aren't going to find much support here

for what you are saying.

[cosmik debris]

13. I hope you put on your fireproof underwear

before you started this thread.

[dolstein]

14. Why do so many Dems sympathize with illegal immigrants?

Is it because they're afraid of pissing off the Hispanic community? Funny, but I would think that Hispanics who are in this country legally would have just as much to lose from illegal immigration as anyone else.

Personally, I think anyone who enters the country ought to be deported, and that we ought to impose a tarriff on products coming in from Mexico in order to offset the cost of enforcing our immigration laws. Mexico ought to be policing its own border -- they shouldn't be able to shift the cost onto the American taxpayer.

[bemildred]

15. Because they are human beings too? Hard working ones, at that. nt

[acmejack]

25. They are human beings

and they require real services, which they are given on the taxpayers dime. The people footing the bill have a legitimate gripe, IMO. That is why protectionism resonates at this time.

I have nothing against the people who brave the trials and tribulations of illegal immigration to improve their families lot in life through hard work. But you don't think any taxes are paid on the salaries of illegal workers do you?

There are two sides to this argument, as there are to most others.

[bemildred]

27. They pay far more in than they get out in services.

And they are allowed in because your government allows them in, the dickheads we elect to Congress, because it undercuts the working class here, and if you want to address that, you need to take it to your Congressperson, not mistreat the poor fuckers that are working their ass off mowing lawns and building houses.

Talk about raising the minimum wage and ENFORCING it and providing LEGAL guest worker programs that are FORBIDDEN to undercut domestic labor and dealing with outsourcing, and I'm with you. But bashing these poor people is just helping the bigshots cut your own throat.

[Mass]

28. No, but they certainly pay sales taxes and indirect taxes

As for the IRS, most of them would not qualify anyway.

[dolstein]

40. Yes, there are two sides -- right and wrong

You say you have nothing against people who break our nations laws by entering the country illegally and taking jobs without lawful documentation. What exactly does someone have to do to get on your bad side?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. Hire them?

[Zhade]

94. Zing!

Nice.

Yes, the problem is with those who exploit desperate illegal labor, NOT those desperate enough to risk death to cross over into America to look for jobs.

[bemildred]

85. Who are you to tell us how many sides there are?

What gives you the right to simplify the issue into a caricature?
What gives you the right to deny these peoples humanity in pursuit of your flat earth view of the World?

[unlawflcombatnt]

100. 2 Sides: Legal & Illegal

Dolstein,

You're absolutely right. Why is it so many people here think it's OK to break our immigration laws? What justifies calling advocates of enforcement of these laws "racists"? Should we all start selectively breaking laws we don't like? Should we only obey laws we want to obey? Is everyone who thinks we should have any laws restricting immigration a racist? Does enforcement of those laws make you a racist?

That's exactly what's being implied here by many.

unlawflcombatnt

[JNelson6563]

76. Did you know

that by the time most immigrants arrive they have been immunized and educated on another country's dime? They often arrive in the prime, most productive time of their lives.

Read The Best Democracy Money Can Buy by Greg Palast. You will learn much.

Julie

[bemildred]

86. Yeah, I know.

They are a labor colony for the US.

[JNelson6563]

88. It's a fact the rascist isolationists conveniently

omit from their rants.

Julie

[PsycheCC]

108. Southern California is CLOSING HOSPITALS left and right because

we can't afford to pay the health care costs of those prime of their lives, immunized illegals. Try living here a while and then tell us what books we should read and that all of us who want the borders closed are just closet racists.

[Fiona]

19. Because

they're hard-working human-beings who come here to improve their lives and give greater opportunities to their children.

They take great risks to get here so they can work a sucky job that you or I won't do. They pay more in taxes than they take out, just so they can have a shot at a better life.

The bastards.

[johannes1984]

20. yeeeaaah them evil immigrants

i assure you all the immigrants who work their ass of to keep our shitty economy going ,haven't done one tenth of the damage the neocon white ass dicks to your taxpayer money .

I'm a calm and nice being , but GODDAMN GREED makes me quite sick ....

and that is why I personally as a democrat grant equal rights to everyone residing in the good ole us OF a
peace

[Maestro]

22. Illegals are being unfairly targeted and maligned

It is the, many times repuke owned, big businesses that continue to employ them at dirt cheap rates that should be attacked. As many have said, these people are human beings, hard-working ones at that, who deserve protection. BTW, the 14th Amendment equal protection clause is for all persons, not citizens and legal immigrants. And please see my earlier post for some articles on illegals and taxes. They are not the drain that people think they are!

[dolstein]

39. "unfairly targeted and maligned" -- what is it about law-breaking

that you don't understand?

Nobody is forcing these people to enter this country illegally. Many people seem to be willing to tough it out in Mexico. Otherwise seek to enter this country illegally.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who violate this country's immigration laws, and neither should the Democratic Party. The people who should sympathize with are all the legal immigrants and U.S. citizens whose wages have been depressed as a result of illegal immigration.

[Eloriel]

48. Yeah, we can see you have no sympathy

Another thing we can see is that you willingly buy into the myths. Now tht your "they don't pay taxes and consume so much of our taxpayer dollar" myth was debunked, you switch to this one:

U.S. citizens whose wages have been depressed as a result of illegal immigration.

No, wages are being depressed NOT because of illegal immigrants but because of globalization -- that sucking sound you may remember Ross Perot warning us about.

Wages are being depressed by Repugs in Washington and their weak-willed Dem counterparts who don't make enough of a fuss about the minimum wage of, better yet, a LIVABLE minimum wage.

Wages are being depressed by greedy corporatists for whom the word "enough" (as in "enough profit") just doesn't compute for some reason.

I sure don't see that many illegal immigrants lining up for tech support jobs, or computer programming, etc. You'll find themin the bowels of dangerous (and probably OSHA-breaking) meat processing plants, in the fields bent over for 10 hours a day picking strawberries or lettuce, in sweat shops running sewing machines, sweating day in and day out landscaping mansions. If you're worried about them bringing down the wages for these jobs, then I'd suggest (as others have), you look to your Congresspeople to make things right and go after those who hire them. But FIRST you'll have to get your Congresspeople to think there's a problem. As I said: they're all perfectly aware, and they're all pretty much complicit.

[Maestro]

49. Thanks Eloriel

I'll let your statements stand without any further discussion because you said exactly what I would have.

[1932]

61. I like that post.

Thanks for writing it.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

87. Meatpacking used to be a union job w/ good pay and bennies.

Then the bossman figured out that there was no need to pay $20 an hour and benefits when there were millions of people who would do the job for $7 and no benefits.

You might want to come up with a different example--one that doesn't undermine the argument you're attempting to make.

[PsycheCC]

110. Way to Go Dolstein!

It's time Democrats stopped being afraid to admit that we don't like illegal immigration. It's wrong, and it causes huge problems. Sure, go after the employers and dry up the source of the desire to come here, but DO SOMETHING to stop the flow.

[unlawflcombatnt]

72. Big Businesses That Employ Illegal Aliens

I certainly am attacking the big businesses that employ them. They are the major culprits. If we could only take one action to reduce illegal immigration, prosecuting employers for illegal hiring would be the most effective. The employers are the only ones who have enough to lose to be deterred by the threat of prosecution.

Unfortunately, this prosecution must be initiated by the Federal Government. The only tools available to citizens or States are to close the borders and deny social services. These are not very effective, but they're all that states and communities have at their disposal.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

23. I would say that Dean is looking at this from a human rights angle

And using the illegal immigrants from Mexico as a whipping post is something you'll never see from Dean, thankfully.

The Repubs love to divide and conquer by turning the poor and working class against each other, to distract from the high level economic thievery occurring every day in our country.

I'm way more afraid of the thugs in the WH destroying my economic stability (what little I have of it) than the desperate immigrants coming from an even more corrupt country than ours. MKJ

[1932]

60. I think the world should aspire to borders like those in the EU.

[unlawflcombatnt]

99. Agreed

Dolstein,

Though a slim majority of Hispanics usually oppose laws restricting illegal immigration, a surprisingly large minority favor such laws. More would favor restricting illegal immigration if they had not been misled by open-border advocates that this is a racial or ethnic issue.

Would the problems created by illegal immigration be any better if all of the illegals came from Britain? Absolutely not. The problem would be just as big. Illegal immigrants swell the labor force and decrease wages and jobs. This is true regardless of where they're from.

Hiding behind racism and xenophobia claims is just a smokescreen by the open-border advocates and the "Cheap Labor Lobby." They're not concerned in the slightest about the "rights" of illegal immigrants. They are concerned about the "rights" of employers to shop globally for the cheapest labor. It's an added bonus when that cheap labor immigrates into this country. It allows smaller, less affluent employers to take advantage of the same cheap, exploitable labor that Corporate America taps into when it outsources jobs.

Open-border advocates always make idiotic claims of racism and xenophobia. Some may actually believe this. But most know better. These unjustified claims provide cover for big business and it's quest for cheap labor. Democrats making such claims are playing right into the hands of big business and Corporate America. Of course, some Democrats are part of Corporate America. And their open-border advocacy reflects this.

unlawflcombatnt

[johannes1984]

18. yeah

critizising someone who has intent to nuke mecca ,and not whipping on poor mexicans are real signs of capitalism for me ."t is not because he doesn't sharpen the american boot for all those who don't have a one million liquidity ,that he's in love with corporate interest .......could just be he has empathy .


immigration in the US is a vital element for economic health ......be it for the ceo or yours truly

[1932]

21. Give me a break. Illegal immigration isn't a cause of cheap labor. It's a

consequence of NAFTA where all the profit from exploiting cheap labor abroad concentrates in the US.

Just like with imperialism during colonialism, obvioulsy people who watch their wealth shipped off to a foreign country will try to follow that wealth where it goes and try to be the butlers and gardeners for the people who are getting rich off of their native soil, resources and laborers.

The more wealth that gets shipped back to the US due to the exploitation of people abroad, the more impossibel it is to close borders to those people. The disparities between wealth here and poverty abroad are too great an incentive and people will overcome whatever hurdle you try to put in their way.

[sandnsea]

34. bzzzzzzt, wrong answer

Illegal immigration has been going on in California loooong before NAFTA. You outline the problems correctly, but laying all on the doorstep of NAFTA just doesn't begin to get to the root of it.

[1932]

42. The US has ripped off foreign countries before NAFTA.

Smedley Butler called himself a bagman for Wall St when he described what he was doing in Nicaragua and the Phillipines.

My bad for saying "NAFTA". What I mean is that it's the product of disparities of wealth. I was using "NAFTA" as shorthand.

Perhaps in the past, you could say that it wasn't the US's fault that we were rich and Mexico or any other country is poor. But a lot of Americans have gotten rich off of Mexican oil becaus eMexicans have not, and globalization and free trade agreements have only entrenched the mechanisms which ensure wealth flows only in one direction, and this is what America wants.

So I stand by my previous assertion. If we aren't letting other countries create wealthy working classes, then we can't complain when their citizens come to the US for a piece of the pie they helped bake by getting ripped off by globalization and free trade back home.

[NYCGirl]

24. Tancredo is popular (I guess) with nutjob, racist California Republicans.

That group's presence at Dean's speech was probably minimal at best. I think we can write off the racist nutjob GOP vote.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. This has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on DU

Dean-a cheap labor conservative? Gimme a fucking break! :eyes:

[Tahkcalb]

29. You voted twice for Reagan and Dean is a Scumbag???

WTF?

For 20+ years, I was a Republican. Back then, I didn't like the "share-the-wealth" thinking the Democrats seemed to embrace. I voted for Ronald Reagan twice.
Then I saw an interesting graph regarding the National Debt. It showed how well Bill Clinton had done, and how poorly the Republican presidents on both sides of him had done. Bush had done MUCH worse. Considering I voted AGAINST Bill Clinton, this gave me pause. I began researching economic statistics, and economic principles.
Then a light suddenly came on.

I think you need to ignore the light and do some more research.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

30. Welcome to DU Tahkcalb, and thanks for your further research on the OP's

blog.

MKJ

:toast:

[johannes1984]

31. welcome and NIIIIIICE

[sandnsea]

35. Much brainwashing to undo

Worst thing about Reaganism, a whole generation that grew up believing that particular brand of empoverishment economy.

[unlawflcombatnt]

71. Nice Distortion

Tahkcalb,

Thanks for taking the opening part of my letter, quoting only part of it, and deliberately distorting it. It's nice to know that you're not above distorting someone's words. Anything goes, as long as it helps support your views, doesn't it. I'll post the entire letter, so readers can actually see what I wrote.


For 20+ years, I was a Republican. Back then, I didn't like the "share-the-wealth" thinking the Democrats seemed to embrace. I voted for Ronald Reagan twice.

Then I saw an interesting graph regarding the National Debt. It showed how well Bill Clinton had done, and how poorly the Republican presidents on both sides of him had done. Bush had done MUCH worse. Considering I voted AGAINST Bill Clinton, this gave me pause. I began researching economic statistics, and economic principles.

Then a light suddenly came on. My previous views of the benefits of increasing investment capital by reducing taxes on corporations came into question. When I began reviewing economic principles and statistics, I realized financial commentators were omitting something. In fact, they ignored the most important aspect of economics. They ignored consumer DEMAND. It was as if that concept didn't even exist. And yet, many commentators were also stating that consumer spending is 2/3 of all economic activity. Since consumer spending creates DEMAND, this seemed like a serious ommission. It made me question everything I was hearing.

In fact, the importance of DEMAND should have overshadowed all other commentary, such as "investment creates jobs," the "onerous regulatory burden," etc. No attention whatsoever was paid to consumer buying power. I thought that was strange, considering profits are made by SELLING goods, not producing them.

I began to realize that my previous "right-leaning" economic beliefs were wrong. VERY WRONG. Worse still, I realized they didn't even make sense. When I started doing some serious thinking, I independly re-discovered 2 Keynesian concepts. The 1st was that of AGGREGATE DEMAND. The 2nd was that of "Marginal Propensity to Consume." It wasn't until later I realized Keynes had already described these concepts. To me these were just common sense concepts. And yet, many of the financial talking heads act is if they had never heard of these principles.

This is when I crossed over to the so-called "left" side of the road. From that point on, my view on economics was changed forever. Though Democratic and Liberal economic policy is sometimes described as "share-the-wealth" policy, they are also "increase-the-wealth" policies. Increasing investment is of no benefit unless demand also increases. Increasing production without increasing consumers' ability to buy production makes no sense. It's even worse when the increase in capital (to increase production) is at the expense of consumer buying power. That's what's happening today. That's why I'm now an "ex-Conservative." Current Neocon economic policy is illogical. It defies even common sense.

[Tahkcalb]

93. Gander Sauce

Tho, If you like I'll add a bit to the discussion.

You bring up Keynesian economics, so I will point to two factors he failed to address:

1) Many forms of energy are functionally infinite. New "product" is auto-created every day. Solar energy and wind power are but two of those. One can argue that the receiver of the "goods" (land to accumulate said) increases in value from other areas. None the less, Keynes fails to account for this.

2) Intellectual Property is yet another form of input to the system that is not easily accounted for in a Keynesian model. Moreover, the window of opportunity for exploitation and cost of production, is very difficult to forecast or even to apply a fixed-ratio-of-value apon it.

In both cases the Labour component (or even the products themselves) may not have a true marketable value. Cheap, dear, expensive are relative to factors that are much more complex than Keynes's boxed view.

I might also point out that the criticism in my first reply was aimed at your usage of an odd term for Dean. Not your views on economic systems. The title of this reply should give you an idea as to why and what I was saying by selectively quoting you.

[Cleita]

32. I'm kind of wondering whom you are representing.

This whole bash illegal immigrants movement, especially with the Minutemen being backed by many racist elements, tells me that this isn't what Howard was talking about. Since I didn't hear the speech nor read about it until now, maybe some links to transcripts or other sources would help me to know exactly what Howard did say.

I am very disappointed that many otherwise sane DUers seem to think it's all right to scapegoat a demographic of people who pose no threat to them other than the fact that they aren't white.

BTW Tom Tancredo is not popular with any Californians I know and I live in California.

[dionysus]

33. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.... (yes i am laughing at you)

[Adelante]

36. Dean must go?

Tancredo must go :eyes:

[genius]

59. I just sent Dean a thank you note.

[lojasmo]

37. Once an immigrant is in America, s/he is consitutionally protected.

Most anti immigration legislation relies on disenfranchising immigrants of their constitutional rights.

Howard Dean is right to criticise anti-immigrant legislation.

[lojasmo]

38. Notice the O.P. is now gone........***********

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"

Verbal Kint

[Maestro]

51. Exactly!

It is like I said in another thread, the 14th Amendment of the Constitution has an equal protection clause and it is for all persons, not citizens, of the U.S.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

41. Minutemen were not welcome in Arizona

They tend to be racist. They get in the way of the real border patrol.

They hold illegals without cause, and illegals are still people, it should go without saying.

This is a very complex issue, illegal immigration.

[ChiciB1]

84. The Term Minutemen Is Misleading...

Personally I feel they are more like the Timothy McVeigh personalities! While posing themselves as TRUE American heroes, they are basically taking the law into their own hands, and pumping up their egos as stalwart citizens!!

Anyone who thinks that most businesses aren't using illegal aliens is fooling themselves! Didn't we just hear about Walmart and the fact that they too have allowed illegals to work for them??

[No Michael Savage]

44. Oh goody

Howard Dean is selling out the American worker for slave labor from Mexico.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WLKjr]

50. have you ever noticed the 'ticks'???

like :

"I used to be a supporter"


"This is the worst thing I have ever heard a Democrat say....."



lurkers, and IMHO, shady people who don't explain thier stances all that well.

[brentspeak]

91. self-del

[Guaranteed]

52. LOL please. nt

[fujiyama]

53. What a bunch of absolute nonsense

Dean must go because he criticized a racist RW congressman that favors deporting all brown people and a bunch of fat ass nutcases "patroling" the border and harassing anyone that isn't white?

God, Dean has the single most thankless job I've ever seen.

[genius]

58. Excuse me? The Minutemen are low-life racists and violent ones at that.

They run people over with their cars and try to make racism the call of the day. They make the KKK look like the friendship club.

Next time you eat am American-grown fruit or vegetable, you may thank a "cheap" migrant worker.

[PsycheCC]

114. Given to hyperbole, I see. I challenge you to LINK to any PROOF of

these outrageous claims against the Minutemen.

[CTLawGuy]

75. THEY TOOK OUR JERRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Anybody see that South Park episode? :shrug:

[NYCGirl]

80. HERE'S THE SPEECH:

http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/07/excerpts_from_d_1.php

http://www.nclr.org/content/viewpoints/detail/32747/

(Also posted this above)

[Mass]

89. Great speech.

[Maestro]

96. Certainly was.

I saw nothing wrong with it. More comments up the thread.

[NYCGirl]

81. HERE'S DEAN'S STATEMENT ON TANCREDO:

Washington, DC - Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean issued the following statement regarding U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo's (R-CO) refusal to apologize for comments suggesting that the United States should bomb Muslim holy sites, including Mecca.

"Tancredo's statements go against the very message America is trying to send to the world, that the war against terrorism is not a war on Islam. Remarks threatening the destruction of holy sites akin to the Vatican or Jerusalem do nothing to win the hearts and minds of Muslims in the United States and abroad.

Congressman Tancredo certainly owes Muslims around the globe an immediate apology for his offensive remarks. At the same time, he also owes Americans an apology for projecting a message that goes against our values. With these remarks, Tancredo has been utterly careless with his responsibility for shaping our foreign policy. Tancredo's continued refusal to apologize poses a very real danger to our troops. President Bush should strongly condemn Tancredo's statement."

http://democrats.org/a/2005/07/dnc_chairman_st_2.php

[Maestro]

97. Sounds like a completely rational response

to an utterly irrational, unstable person. I can't stand Tancredo! He represents so much that is so wrong with the U.S.

[geek tragedy]

83. I'll take Howard Dean over racists like the Minutemen and Tancredo any day

Jeebus.

[zulchzulu]

90. This misrepresentation of Howard Dean's message brought to you by...

...all the college students that want to support their MBA funding by picking grapes in Napa Valley or doing corn harvesting in Iowa in the hot sun.

C'mon.

Tancredo is practically a KKK member. Xenophobia is not for the Democrats. Sorry...but hey, thanks for playing.

[LittleClarkie]

103. One issue people make my teeth itch

I would never turn on someone based on one issue alone. I'd even support someone I don't like, such as Clinton or Biden, if they were on the right side of an issue.

And I don't see how disagreeing with someone on this issue make Dean a sellout.

[PsycheCC]

106. 1)The OP is CORRECT 2)Links to Dean's Speech are SANITIZED Versions

Pulling on my asbestos underwear, let me say that I saw this speech on C-SPAN. It was given with Dean's usual passion. For the first time, I found myself on the wrong side of his passion. That speech contained a vicious attack on the Minute Men in a clear effort to court the Hispanic vote. Apparently Dean is unaware that many Hispanics, especially in southern California where I live, oppose illegal immigration because they see it eroding their way of life too.

NO ONE likes to see people suffer. Of course, illegals are victims looking for a better life, but it isn't up to U.S. taxpayers to give it to them. Mexico should take care of Mexico. I'm sure many think that's just a very cold way of thinking, but until I saw this situation up close, I had no idea. I moved to California from Washington State a few years ago. What an eye opener. When people are willing to live 20 to a household, and I'm not exaggerating, the world changes. Crowding is incredible here. It takes forever to get anywhere on the freeway. Housing, renting or buying, costs a fortune. Taxes are very high. I'm sure there are many factors behind these problems. For reasons I don't understand, California is a popular place to live. But honest people will admit that you can feel the tension here. I challenge all of you who think you have the moral high ground to come and live here a while.

Average people want the borders closed. They're tired of seeing wages depressed by having to compete with illegals. And it's an absolute myth that illegals only take jobs that citizens don't want. Listen to any call-in radio show down here, and you'll hear those poor employers complain about how they have to hire illegals to compete. The next caller is invariably a guy who lost his job to one of those illegals because he wasn't willing to do it for $7 instead of $14 an hour.

A lot of the posts so far on this thread have claimed that Unlawflcombatnt is making the illegals out to be the criminals. I've re-read that post, and I don't see it. It sounds to me like he is angry with Dean for appearing to side with Corporate America in their quest for more cheap labor. Yes, he goofed on Tancredo, but he admitted later that Tancredo's remarks about Mecca were inappropriate. I'm sure many of you who are screaming at him noticed this, but one thing about DU, you guys love to berate each other, warranted or not.

Lastly, I'm sort of sure that NYC Girl was doing her public service putting up the links to Dean's speech, but if you look at them, you'll see that they are only excerpts, and bad ones at that. After reading this thread, I spent some time on the net trying to find a full text of the speech. CAN'T FIND IT. And the little voice in my head says that's no accident. I would LOVE to hear from someone who did hear the whole speech, because most of the really bad stuff seems to be missing from the redacted versions. He had plenty negative to say about the Minute Men, who are heroes, to many of us. Again, I'm sure those of you not living with the ills of illegal immigration can afford to be above the concept of average people taking back their country. Take another look at that "excellent speech." How do you know it's excellent when it's riddled with ellipsis dots?

Since I'm going down in flames anyway, I'll end by speaking the truth. Illegal immigration is bad for America, It's expensive, and it creates racial tension. People are tired of seeing their way of life destroyed so Corporate America can have cheap labor. I'm sick of listening to President Fox go on about what's bad about the U.S. All he, and many who won't say so out loud, want are open borders. Well, that's no answer. Mexico should fix Mexico. The U.S. makes enough of it's own problems without taking on Mexico's. Okay, I've got my asbestos underwear securely in place. Here we go.

[LSK]

112. on the flip side, the OP offers no source of the speech

It would be great is someone could get the ENTIRE SPEECH.

[PsycheCC]

115. The OP says it was a speech to La Raza this week. From my search

of the net, I only see comments about one speech.

[wyldwolf]

113. I haven't heard or read Dean's speech but I must say...

...I think you are spot on with your assessment of the illegals situation.

[CAcyclist]

116. Please Don't Peddle This Here

Don't come here and cite a right-wing website and try to divide us on the matter of Dean.

Our constituents include Hispanics, many of whom were migrants or whose family were migrants. Migrants are only looking for work.

That is a completely separate issue from what corporate america does.

[AlienGirl]

118. Locking

This has become a flamefest.