Americans are getting the government they chose and they deserve

[Skidmore]

it. This is something my husband has told me repeatedly over the past 4+ years, and it always makes me mad when he says it. It taps into my emotionality over election fraud and the blatant deceptions in policymaking and the war. I've always protested when he says this with rationalizations over how the nation has been deceived and that we are not like this as a people. Today, my frustration overwhelmed me, and as I was thinking about this again, I understand finally what he means. He is absolutely right. If Americans wanted something different, they would have moved heaven and earth to learn about our erstwhile "leaders" and they would have taken the time to turn out at the polls to make certain their votes were cast. If our nation wants something different, then we need to be turning these people out. Some of us want to do this--some just want to watch the latest show trial or sharkbite story.

[smoogatz]

1. You and hubby should read Mark Crispin Miller's piece

about 2004 election fraud in this month's Harper's, and then come back and tell me if you still think the American people got the government they deserve.

[getmeouttahere]

4. That's all good, but

she's right, people still have to be willing to "move heaven and earth" to make things right again. An election was stolen...what are we going to do about it? The current govt/admin isn't going to do anything about it, because they stole it and it's in their best interests to keep the status quo.

[smoogatz]

6. What do you propose? What are YOU doing about it?

Just curious.

[getmeouttahere]

8. SlipperySlope, in this thread, brought it up...

as I did, in another post within this thread...

in the absence of a dem party with a backbone, and given the control of all branches of govt by the neocon/theocrats, shifting the balance of economic power through boycotts/buycotts is the only power we have left, IMO. SlipperySlope also mentioned sit-down strikes and mass refusal to pay taxes.

On a smaller scale, back in the 30's organizations for women and blacks were highly successful at boycotting businesses where they couldn't work or shop or afford to shop. Another inspiring example is the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Again, today we would need boycotts on a massive scale to be effective, and this would require tremendous sacrifice for many. But we can sacrifice now, or be forced to sacrifice later when the inevitable economic collapse comes. And it's not like we are being asked to sacrifice during war time, like the nation was asked to do during WWII, for example.

[smoogatz]

11. Boycotts? Against who?

And how are you going to motivate millions of Americans to participate in a vote-fraud boycott when you can't get them interested in vote fraud in the first place?

[getmeouttahere]

13. Well, I imagine the same way...

the folks did back in the day...communication...we do have a very powerful tool that they didn't have in the 30's - the internet.

seems to me we're back to the place where you asked me what I suggest we do...what other options are there? When you make your purchases, you are essentially voting for that product or service. It can't be just about vote fraud, and short of violent overthrow, I don't see what options we have.

[smoogatz]

15. That's some weak-ass shit, my friend.

You want to boycott somebody, but you don't know who and you don't know how to motivate people to join you or how the boycott's going to change whatever it is you don't like. Frankly, you'd get a lot more attention for your cause if you sat outside the White House with a sign that said "Bush Steals Elections," and set yourself on fire. How about this: write to your favorite lefty columnist--Krugman, Ivins, Cole, whoever--and send them some quotes from the Miller piece in Harper's. Tell them you're very concerned about election fraud and ask them to do a column on the subject. Because the ONLY way to raise public awareness of the election fraud issue is through the media.

[dogday]

2. As long as the two parties are divided, they

cannot come together and get the job done. This is Rove's handy work. He has conditioned the Republicans to hate the Democrats and vice-versa. We can either continue to complain or we can actually start trying to make amends with each other(They are all not fundies).

[Search Party]

7. "As long as the two parties are divided, they"

You are exactly right, this is Rove's handywork.

No matter how obvious the truth glares, they refuse to accept it.

It's all part of the "elite Hollywood left" saying "I told you so"
and they can't stand it. Being stupid isn't easy, but it always comes back to haunt you.

Rove and his ilk have scarred the Republicans big time, the * legacy will be laughable at best.

[bmcatt]

9. Not sure that "we" hate "them"

But, by the same token, it does seem like any of the moderate Repubs have either been Stepfordized, stamped-on, or just plain co-opted.

In an odd (and unfortunate) twist, I think that may be part of the reason that there *isn't* a massive Dem uprising - we don't, as a class, hate "them". We hate what some of them are doing / have done to the country. We hate how every issue becomes polarized and partisan-ized. But, for the most part, we don't hate them the way they seem to loathe us.

This, from some perspectives, may be exactly why we wind up losing on some issues that we should (collectively) feel strongly about. We're not united in our hate - we actually think about the issues.

Sigh...

[getmeouttahere]

3. Absolutely right....far too many sheeple...

to affect change.

Shift the balance of power through boycotts/buycotts!!! It would take all of us making sacrifices, but I believe its the only power we have left.

[SlipperySlope]

5. He is right...

He is right, at least to a degree.

I've long believed that all nations have the governments they deserve, over the long term. In the short term, mistakes happen. But if the people accept those mistakes and let them continue, then the people deserve what they get.

Where are the nationwide sit-down strikes?
Where is the mass refusal to pay taxes?

[tubbacheez]

10. Big difference between individual and collective "deserving".

Some things scale up fairly well. A 1% gain on a $1000 investment will be larger than a 1% gain on a $100 investment... by a very reasonable factor of 10x.

Some things don't scale up well. I think the idea of "deserving" is one of them. It's really hard to pin down what masses of people really deserve. Sure, we can come to some rough average for the whole group. But it's tricky getting down to specifics.

Even if we all somehow agreed that "Americans got what they deserve", does this mean each of us individually is receiving (in just proportion) exactly what we each have earned individually?

I'm living in California. Did I somehow earn the full-bodied experience of utter irritation from Rep. Tancredo in Colorado? Did my friend Ted in Hawaii do something (of fail to do something) which causes him to deserve (from a standpoint of justice) his feeling of powerlessness compared to the Carlyle Group or PNAC?

I think most people would say no.

Individually, we each do not always deserve our condition. Some do, but I suspect this is more the exception than the rule. Many people are better off than they deserve, depending on how one values various contributions and elements of our situation. Many more are worse off than they deserve, again depending how one values things. In the microscopic analysis, I would disagree with your husband.

However, from the standpoint that the aggregate collection of causes determines the aggregate collection of effects, our current situation is indeed our collective responsibility. This is the abstract and macroscopic level where I would agree with your husband.









Too many people have blindly followed Shrub. In some cases, it's really their fault. They ignored data, or applied faulty logic, or chose not to think.

In other cases, fault is less clear. Some may have had little to no opportunity for a decent education. Some may have erroneously placed their trust in the wrong people, listened to the wrong TV commentators, or were unduly influenced by modern advertising.




But in both views, microscopic and macroscopic, the solution to objectionable circumstance is the same. We need to find better ways of getting what we want.

Persistance of principle and general effort is key, though this should not be interpreted so rigidly that impractical strategies or tactics be used... even if they were good at some point before.

Principles, values, and other elements of doctrine do scale up well. At any scale, these guide our priorities and govern what we are willing to do to attain them.

As creative humans, we can solve our problems and improve our condition. I have no doubt. We do need patience and both persistance of effort as well as persistence of values.

[McCamy Taylor]

12. WRONG. Election fraud gave us this government.

The American people are absolutely fed up with * and the GOP Bullshit machine. Problem is that there is no political system in place that has not been compromised by the GOP machine, since our vote has been stolen and the FBI has infiltrated our organizations and the news media has been co-opted.

Listen to the polls. A whole lot of Americans are crying out in fear, rage and anguish.

[Skidmore]

14. Crying out is passive. If they wanted to effect change,

they'd join in an active effort to end this debacle by getting rid of corrupt pols, businessmen, and shun the media.

[McCamy Taylor]

16. Concrete suggestions that the average American w/o internet can do?

While holding down two jobs and raising kids as a single parent without health insurance?

[ncteechur]

17. If it was just them that had to suffer--so be it. But I didn't vote for

the rat bastard either time. Nor for his daddy. Nor for Reagan.

I don't deserve this shitty shit.

[McCamy Taylor]

18. News flash. A lot of them didnt vote for * either.