What I see is the Dems problem. (This is a bit of a rant)

[ncteechur]

This Democratic problem is not really a problem with the democrats--well some of it is, but moreover, it is a problem with the electorate.

Unfortunately, the US has a lazy electorate. First, a sad percentage of citizens are registered to vote and of that number only a portion actually votes. Yes, it is true that we have to energize folks for there are far too many that say neither side is better than the other so why bother voting.

But that is simply laziness on the part of Joe Non-voter. No party should have to "energize" someone to do their civic duty.

In addition, we have too many people who never ask questions. They simply settle for the 2-word sound byte. They want you to tell them who to vote for. We know this is the truth because when Kerry began his campaign, the worry was that he couldn't encapsulate his message into this 2-word sound byte.

Unfortunate isn't it that this country cannot have a real political discourse. We can't discuss intelligently about issues because the ranks of the uninformed can't keep up. Is this academic snobbery? Is this East Coast liberal elitism? No. It is simply the truth. It is not elitism to ask hard questions of our predident and his staff. It is not elitism to require accountability from our elected leaders. Those that cannot keep up intellectually are the first to cry out that our questions are unpatriotic. Those that are the most lazy of our electorate are the first to claim that the left is elitist even when they don't know elitism is.

Politicians in Washington know better. They may spout their 2-word sound bytes on Sunday morning talk shows (interesting isn't it that all the Sunday morning talk shows are during the time when these religious right folks are supposed to be at church) but they know the truth. They know that this administration has sadly betrayed the trust of the American people. They know that the have endorsed torture and an overturning of American civil liberties. But these same folks dumb down the political process to preach fear. Don't vote for democrats or liberals because you will personally lose something to someone else--a woman, a minority, your neighbor. The part that gets folks is not that they lose but that someone else might gain at what they were told was at their own expense. They don't see the hand of the republicans slipping into their pockets.

Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave. Tyranny begins when uninformed people blindly follow tyrannical leaders. Looks like he was right.

[Deep13]

1. pretty much

[AllegroRondo]

2. Jon Stewart said it best

(paraphrased) The Republicans figured it out years ago, that if you get the idiot vote, you win.

[navvet]

3. You state that parts of you comments are not elitist

Yes they are and it is in part why we lose elections.

How dare us think we are that superior to some one who wants to live his life in peace, pay his bills and love his family.

There is more to life than government, politics and issues (like baseball for instance, just kidding) as important as they are.

We as democrats have earned the characterture of east coast liberal snobs and it costs us.


I know I saw it on display last fall, it really hurts when we combine it with a disdain for anything and all things faith based.

I know some people that take their faith very serious and felt disinclined to support Democrats last fall because of a perceived feeling that they were not wanted to support democrats.

I talked long and hard to convince them otherwise.

We would do better to talk to people not at them.

:hi: :dem: :thumbsup:

[ncteechur]

5. Yeah, but most issues cannot be summed up in 2 words.

It is not black and white. And the more we try to make it this or that, the more we lower the bar for discourse. I think the whole process sells people short because it doesn't demand their attention--it doesn't demand that they become engaged. What we have done wrong is allowed the right to frame everything as this or that.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with paying your bills, working hard everyday, raising a family. But for people to not try to understand how issues and policies actually affect their work, their families, their pocketbook other than just a simple this or that--that is the laziness that we need to move away from.

Most things are not a sound byte and a 2-word answer.

To say that they hate us for our freedoms is bullshit. Eleanor Clift said that best, (Paraphrased) It isn't our freedoms that they hate, it is our policies.

To say we need to fight them there so we don't fight them here. It is much more complicated than that.

How do explain to the parent or a spouse in a 2-word soundbyte why their son or daughter or husband or wife died in Iraq? Is a soundbyte enough.

Jon Stewart was right about the idiot vote--but that is even too simplified. These people are not idiots--just ignorant.

The question remains--How do we get people--ordinary people who are not engaged--to become informed, to ask the hard questions, and to hold our politicians of all parties accountable?

[navvet]

7. I can not and will not argue with these comments

I find them reasoned well and cogent.

As to how we can get the public more engaged. A smarter person than me will have figure that out, because I can not.


But I do know that we should not be condescending to them.

Some think if you spend enough time talking with them.

Heck one of my GOP friends is almost to the Democratic side because he thinks that GOP economics are asinine. Now all I have to do is convince him that the Democrats can defend the nation and I have a vote for Doyle and perhaps a Dem president vote in 08.

One voter at a time.
:dem:

[McCamy Taylor]

6. In Mexico, people work hard AND they follow politics. Not an elite issue.

The real culprit in the US is also our biggest virtue, our rugged individualism. It makes us willing to take a stand and speak out for what we believe, but it disinclines us to act as a group towards a common goal. It means that the Neo-cons will never achieve a fascist state, because Americans dont goose step, but it means that we will never achieve a socialist state either--at least not in my lifetime.

Americans are motivated to vote when they have a tangible goal.E.g they are union members, pro-choice, right-to-life. We are disinclined to vote out of a sense of obligation towards the preservation of our democracy, because we distrust our government and see it as something oppressive and other than ourselves.

It doesnt help that our public schools do such a poor job of teaching kids about social studies. Hell, coaches teach the classes. How can anyone learn government or American history when you have someone who isnt even trained in the subject teaching it out of a book?

[navvet]

8. Another excellent comment

which I agree with.:dem:

[TroglodyteScholar]

11. You have got to admit, tho...

...that Republicans have done an astounding job of making the public distrust people who actually know what they're talking about. People who spend their entire careers becoming experts are easily written off as academic elitists who want to tell you how to live.

When so much of the public is willing to view knowledgible people with nothing but contempt, how can you possibly appeal to them in an honest manner?

The problem is this: Dems tend to have some kind of respect for rules and truth. Repubs, on the other hand, will say or do whatever they want, regardless of validity, to achieve their goals. The only way we could beat them at this game is to become even more dishonest than they are. I'd rather the Dems stay honest and keep losing than turn their back on truth in exchange for power.

[navvet]

14. No argument that the GOP plays fast a loose.

But we still need to find a way to approach people in a positive and reasonable (not condesending) way.

That was my major point.:dem:

[election_2004]

4. The worst part....

...is when those of us who ARE active in politics are told to just sit back and allow the party masters to define the agenda (and the path to get there).

Why else would they be trying to matter-of-factly convince us:
"Hillary is going to be the nominee in '08, just accept it."
TWO-AND-A-HALF freakin' years before a single vote has even been cast in the primaries!!!!

[Eloriel]

9. I spend many hours each day (well, most days) keeping informed

that's way too much to expect of average people, and perhaps esp. for people who don't have internet access or can't spend many hours a day on the internet, as I do.

Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave. Tyranny begins when uninformed people blindly follow tyrannical leaders. Looks like he was right.


I think he'd be most upset not with the PEOPLE, but with the press.

No party should have to "energize" someone to do their civic duty.

I disagree with that too, or rather the underlying premise that no one could or should get so turned off to the process of politics that they refuse to participate as an act of self-protection. YOU may find politics important and worthy of your time and effort, but a lot of people find it simply too corrosive and/or too not-relevant or out of their control to warrant spending their precious time and life force energy on.

I can identify... and IMO you should try to as well, because IMO the Dean campaign showed hands down what it takes to "energize" people -- it takes a candidate they can believe and believe IN, someone who speaks their language and understands their concerns because he listens BACK. At every campaign appearance where Dean asked, over 50% of those who were in attendance (and remember how EARLY this was in the process!) were either completely new to politics or hadn't done ANYthing political for 10 years or longer. HE BROUGHT PEOPLE INTO THE POLITICAL PROCESS purely because of the type of politician he is -- real, honest, trustworthy, blunt and outspoken about not just our problems but their potential solutions.

[ArkDem]

10. But Dean lost in spectacular fashion....

[KoKo]

12. Dean is a Phoenix..........he has risen from ashes..

In a spectacular fashion.

[ArkDem]

13. The jury is still out on that one. The proof will be in the pudding.

A soon a we win some national elections I'll be convinced.