This is DEMOCRATIC Underground.

[Writer]

Not Liberal Underground or Leftist Underground.

We are here to discuss the Democratic Party and its politics. Democrats come in all shapes and sizes and we ALL should be welcome on this site.

Thank you.

[Bluebear]

1. Fine. Now cough up a few bucks while you're at it :)

:hi:

[IChing]

31. Yeah that would be nice to see a star post next to a staring post.

I do agree, dialogue is needed since the DLC is listening
and they are
as they should

I know I work at a local level, and semi state level
unfortunately I'm not a member of the DLC
.
THE GREATEST THING THIS SITE HAS DONE IS THE
DU Activist Headquarters

[pocket]

67. what is a staring post?

I plead ignorance.

[LittleClarkie]

71. I think he means that if you're gonna say that a poster needs to make

a donation, there should be a star next to that person's name as well, signifying that he himself has donated to DU.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

55. Let's play count the DLCers without stars

do I see a pattern here? :eyes:

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Huh?

There are plenty of democrats who are basically corporate fascists too.

Yay.

[bemildred]

3. Please read rule #1 carefully:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[Writer]

8. I understand that its not affiliated, but does that mean then

that moderates and centrists are not welcome? So when I come on here to discuss Dem politics I must do so only from a particular angle?

[MisterLiberal]

21. Yep

Generally acceptant of PROGRESSIVE (read Liberal) views.

There are enough forums out there with the wishy washy Democrats.

[Pirate Smile]

35. Bullshit!

[MisterLiberal]

38. You know how to read, don't you?

It's pretty simple you know.

"Generally SUPPORTIVE of progressive ideas" isn't that hard of a concept to understand.

[Pirate Smile]

41. That sounded like a Yep to the question "that moderates and centrists are

not welcome?"

That insulting attitude is the problem right now - (and I wouldn't even probably qualify as a moderate or a centrist) but the lefty purity requirement (known as lefty freepers) that seems to have taken hold has a chilling effect on discussions. I think that is a negative, not a positive for DU.

[MisterLiberal]

65. LOL

You're saying the BASE of the party is the PROBLEM?

That we're "too far to the LEFT???"

LOL!

No wonder the DLC is able to screw the party so badly with people thinking that way.

[Pirate Smile]

87. LOL. No, the base isn't the problem.

edit to delete most of the message.

This is stupid. I'm done with this DLC BS distraction..

Think what you want. You can even have the last word.

[SaveElmer]

64. You could help us there...

If you could post a list of issues and the required progressive positions...we can take a look at them...then we will know if we belong or not!!

Is 100% compliance required...or is it like the test for your drivers license...70%

We will need to know this too!!!


Thanks!

[bemildred]

22. No, it does not mean you are not welcome.

But we have a big tent and debate is vigorous. Many points of view are tolerated as long as it's kept (somewhat) civil.

Accept my personal welcome.
:hi:

[Writer]

27. Oh, hey, wicked cool. Thanks!

:hi:

[Pirate Smile]

32. No, don't get scared off. A lot of the people here aren't even Democrats

so take the Dem bashing with a grain of salt.

I would like the entire spectrum of Democratic political thought to be represented here and discussed.

:hi:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AwakeAtLast]

57. Welcome to DU!!!

:hi:

[AntiCoup2K4]

66. Middle of WHAT?

Who decides where the mythical "center" is?

Do you realize that Dennis Kucinich, who was considered too liberal to have a snowballs chance in Hell of being elected in this country's current climate (and unfortunately that was probably true enough) would be considered a right leaning moderate in most other democratic countries on this planet.

Nixon (aside from his paranoia and criminal side projects) was a more liberal President than Bill Clinton. Think about that.

That's where your "center" has gone in the last few decades. That game has to stop. Right wing moles cannot keep dragging the center of OUR party to meet THEIR agenda.

[lynne]

56. IMO, the operative word in that sentence is -

- "GENERALLY". Seems to me that the word gives you permission to have a centrist moment or two.
;-)

[MisterLiberal]

17. good one

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals

So I guess if you were trying to say that conservatives were welcome here (based on your attack of liberals), that's not what the rules say.

[bemildred]

28. In my experience posters of a conservative bent are tolerated too,

as long as they are not "disruptive". Many here like a good honest debate. And some like a good flame war.

[Mass]

30. You're always conservative for somebody

what is liberal is in the eye of the beholder.

[bemildred]

33. True. Left of what is the question. nt

[niallmac]

59. Thanks. First time I actually read rule #1. What a relief.

:thumbsup:

[BlueStateModerate]

4. Zell Miller,

You are welcome here, fellow Democrat!

:sarcasm:

[bloom]

5. From the rules:

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.

[Robbien]

6. boring. just another dlcer snoozefest 'unity' drive

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Maddy McCall]

7. Read the rules.

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

[AverageJoe]

18. The frog rules!

Yes indeed, Maddy. Nice frog.

[Maddy McCall]

39. Thanks, Joe.

:hi:

[bleever]

45. I, too, like the frog.

[bunny planet]

44. Is that frog a Democrat who is generally supportive of progressive ideals.

I certainly hope so.

[Maddy McCall]

46. He's inherently Green.

But a Democrat at heart. :D

[MisterLiberal]

9. Not true.

I remember reading that conservatives weren't allowed here and for that I'm thankful.

[mike_c]

10. you might check the site rules-- this gets rehashed with every...

...new class of newbies. Of course, it HAS been a while since we had a good Nader bashing thread to play with.... :rofl:

[Writer]

14. I know the site rules, but progressive isn't defined.

Are Dems who don't fall under "progressive" not welcome in DU? I wish this could be clarified somewhat.

[MisterLiberal]

19. Simple

NO RIGHT WINGER ALLOWED!

[Writer]

24. Okay... but what about us moderates?

Or those whose beliefs fall just outside of "progressive?"

[MisterLiberal]

37. ...

There are a ton of forums out there for "moderates" and "conservatives"

I have grown to like open house liberal ideology.

[Vickers]

11. Wow, you type "liberal" and "leftist" like they're naughty words

:eyes:

[Writer]

There's nothing wrong with liberals and leftists. n/t

[uppityperson]

12. Just in case you missed it:

Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

[LittleClarkie]

13. Progressive Underground. Green Underground.

Socialist Anarchist Underground (still trying to get my head wrapped 'round that one).

The "I'm more liberal than you, neener" Underground.

[Glorfindel]

15. You need a hug, fellow Democrat...

this leftist, Liberal, pinko fag loves you!

:hug:

[Writer]

16. Wah-hoo!

Hug back!

:hug:

[dweller]

23. welcome Glorfindel!

you leftist, Liberal pinko fag, You!

from a leftist, liberal, closet-libertarian, and general grumpy old fart.
dp

[Glorfindel]

25. Many thanks!

:pals:

[Rick Myers]

42. Welcome to DU!!!

[Pirate Smile]

47. That is great Glorfindel! Welcome! I love you attitude.

:hi:

[The Jacobin]

20. Well, one thing you're right about.

So few people around here understand the power of numbers in the legislatures. They are purists. They would rather see a Republican in the Senate than a DINO like, say, Lieberman. They are also losers.

I use that word precisely. To have a majority in the House and Senate, we need every Democrat. Without a majority we get John Roberts, John Bolton, and Tom Delay. With a majority, we control the agenda. Without, we get run over.

[union_maid]

29. I totally agree with that, but...

That doesn't mean that I'm not going to fight to have my party represent working people, middle class people, low income people before corporations. I'll vote for the Democrat every time, but when it comes to choosing which Democrat, that's a different story.

[PittLib]

68. What is the point?

I mean, if we are constantly conceding and allowing the party to prop DINOs? If they vote with the repubs and undermine our supposed ideals, who gives a shit if they have a (D) by their name? I am not a purist, but if someone claims to be progressive, they damn well better be ... or I will find one to support. I will not tolerate my issues being tossed aside in favor of someone who shares 50% of progressive values, at best ... which means that he also shares 50% with the person we so desperately want to oust. If we stopped rolling over (for once) and actually stood up for what we believe ... we would have better candidates that could attract votes. I live in PA ... and I am pissed off. Do I want Santorum in office for another term? Hell no. Do I think Casey is better? Barely.

[depakid]

74. Actually, the DINO's cause us to lose

Libermann et al. make the party weak- and stand for nothing (other than backstabbing).

If you can't see that after over 10 years of losing elections by pandsering to the right, I don't know what it'll take to open your eyes.

[bonofor prez]

86. My friends and I now refer to him as...

Zell Libermann...
I wish he'd just change parties and quit fooling his crusty old self.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. Cue Poor Victimized Centrist Dem Theme Song...

and put on your waders...

[AllyCat]

34. Hmmm...so as a Green who often votes Dem, am I welcome or not?

I am more than happy to support Dem candidates IF they support what I consider progressive ideals and what drew me to follow the workings of this party in the first place.

Anyone in the DLC, unfortunately, does not meet that criteria. Zell Miller does not fit that criteria. Frankly, I don't think Joe Lieberman does either. So, do we HAVE to support them to post here, just because they are Dems?

The point is, we are a group that asks questions of our leaders and do not support Dems just because they are Dems. We are intelligent enough to not just fall lockstep behind the partyline like the RNC folks seem to do.

[orleans]

40. " so, as a green who also votes dem am i welcome or not?"

i say: of course you're welcome. we love you allycat. besides, you're progressive--and i love progressives!

[AllyCat]

43. Thanks Orleans. I guess Writer would say no way, but I've

always felt welcome here. Just wondering if he OP wanted to clarify position. We need many voices here!

[yashuryabetcha]

61. thank you

was beginning to wonder............:toast:

[LittleClarkie]

81. That's cool

It's just those folks who spend more time complaining about what's wrong with the Dem Party instead of working to make it right that make my teeth itch. One can only take so many "The Dem Party sux" threads.

Positive action as opposed to negative bitchfesting. That's what I'm looking for.

[quinnox]

36. well said

And yes, all Dems are welcome here, even moderates and conservative Democrats. At least, that is what I have seen Skinner (site admin) say before.

And don't let the purity police get to you, I don't give a damn about them and neither should anyone else. I have been called "operative" and other nonsense and it is meaningless to me, I still say whatever my opinion is regardless.

[K8-EEE]

48. THANKS WRITER!

We are at a crucial junction; BushCo's lies are folding like the proverbial house of cards. Now is no time to divide. The Dems are the only ones who can stand up to GWB politically, Conyers, Boxer, Frank etc they all NEED OUR SUPPORT. This is no time for petty squabbles. We need to welcome WHOEVER embraces the truth and know that ALL people who embrace the truth will be villified, Jane Fonda, Richard Clarke, the Pope, whoever. IT SHOULDN'T MATTER! We are now the majority. I can really feel it!

[stevietheman]

49. I would guess all Democrats and sympathizers should be welcome...

unless they:

1. cozy up to the criminal Bush administration in any way; or
   
2. support the illegal naked aggression against Iraq (or any ill-fated plans to "win" there, which really means "extending the quagmire for years and years to come"); or
   
3. don't support withdrawing our troops within a reasonable period of time; or
   
4. act as a corporatist (i.e., favor policies that pamper big business, entities that *should* be able to fend for themselves without corporate welfare).
   

As far as I'm concerned, there is forever no compromise on these points, no matter what so-called "DLC centrists" (really Republicans in disguise) say.

As a real centrist myself (more accurately a left-of-center independent), one who generally supports a capitalistic approach in most areas of the economy, supports government policies that aid small and independent businesses, and limits welfare in general to only those in dire need (and for limited time periods), I still find myself at odds with a so-called Democratic "Leadership" Committee that continues to all but support Bush's extremely failed foreign policies despite all the evidence streaming out about how the American people were lied into war.

Can we compromise with those who all but support the liars and crooks in the Bush administration any more than we compromise with the same liars and crooks? Obviously, the answer is a big NO.

No compromise EVER with anyone who aids and abets the criminal Bush administration. And "EVER" is my final answer.

[welshTerrier2]

50. there are numerous problems with your post ...

first, you stated that ALL Democrats should be welcomed on this site ... i totally agree ... but you didn't show why you thought anyone on DU was suppressing your right to post here ...

second, you stated that this is the DEMOCRATIC Underground not Liberal Underground or Leftist Underground ... well, my friend, whether you like it or not, many liberals and leftists are DEMOCRATS too ... the DLC does NOT own this Party and they are quickly losing control of it ...

third, and this is the most important point, we are all going to lose if unity is not achieved long before 2006 ... the rift that has been so clearly highlighted the last couple of days IS ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND ITS POLITICS ... whether you like it or not, unlike the ABB movement of last year, most of us "way out there, fringe radical Marxist lefties" are not just going to go along anymore ... we are DONE WITH THAT ... they didn't call us names like that when we worked hard for Democrats last year and did whatever we could to help finance their campaigns ...

there is great hostility among many of us because many of us do not believe the Party represents us and some in the DLC have demonstrated open hostility for the Party's progressive wing ...

so, if your concern is for a unified Party, as Hillary called for yesterday, perhaps you should reach out to the left and offer change ... perhaps you should call for a more democratic process within the Party so that ALL Democrats feel represented ... i think the inclination of those who have had a stranglehold on power in the Party is to dismiss its progressive wing ... they do so at their own peril ...

i think it's critical to seek unity or we will indeed be stuck with more years of right-wing tyranny ... but i am no longer willing to go along with any Party that is unresponsive to so many of its members ... what the Democratic Party has condoned in Iraq is a disgrace ... America's imperialist foreign policy is a disgrace ... and the influence of mega-corporations in the Party and in the entire electoral process is a disgrace ...

no one is saying, at least i'm certainly not, that all Democrats aren't welcome here ... but don't bury your head in the sand to the very real rift that exists ... if you want to build unity, find a way to share power ... Hillary's comments about unity are exactly the wrong approach ... saying we need unity to win without offering real changes is nothing more than empty rhetoric ... in a DU poll today on a Hillary-McCain race, 40% of DU'ers refused to just go along ... that means that 40% would not vote for Hillary ... if that isn't discussing Democratic Party politics, what is ??

DLC supporters need to quit whining about unity and start doing something that will lead to unity ... ABB is dead; an insane war rages on with the endorsement of Democrats and the left is pissed off ... with the republican party falling apart, 2006 should be a great year for Democrats ... polls don't show Democratic gains though ... it should be a year that real regime change, longterm regime change happens ... it should be a year Democrats regain their majority status ... if the intra-Party rift is not healed and the Party's activists sit on the sidelines, who knows what will happen ... let's heal the rift by listening to everyone in our Party and defining a platform that truly represents the beliefs of ALL Democrats ... without change there will be no healing ... if you want unity, work for change ... the status quo cannot continue ...

[KoKo]

53. Well Said....can't add a thing.....n/t

[Kathy in Cambridge]

58. Great post

:applause:

[Old_Fart]

51. Amen

:pals:

[bvar22]

54. Stop trying to force labels, try defining YOUR positions on the issues.

Centrist, Moderate, Liberal have different meanings for everybody. The CENTER constantly moves as Parties realign themselves with policies. A centrist 15 years ago would be a flaming liberal today if he still supported the SAME issues.

Define what issues YOU support, and let the labels take care of themselves.

For instance:
I support Single Payer (Universal) HealthCare. That is extremely clear for everyone. Everyone has the same reference. You can stick whatever "LABEL" on me that you want. I don't care and you haven't changed, distorted, or misinterpreted my position or projected any intraParty assumptions.

[kansasblue]

60. I thought this was democratic underground... small 'd'

as in democracy.

[LittleClarkie]

69. The powers that be don't cotton to folks working against Dem candidates

though. So it's probably both a big D and a little d, simultaneously.

In which case, those who are trying to shout "MINE" on either side probably could knock it off.

If Skinner wants someone to go bye bye, they will.

[checks-n-balances]

62. I thought you were going to add, '...not DEMOCRAT Underground"

and set the record straight with that. It's very telling when people here talk about The "Democrat" Party - it makes me think they are repubs (not you; I'm just rambling before bedtime. Sorry, my bad.)

[Maraya1969]

63. I'm so confused

I don't know what everyone is talking about. :cry:

[snowbear]

70. Ah Maraya1969,

Don't feel bad :hug: ...It is pretty confusing.

The DLC is the Democractic Leadership Council -- sort of the moderate wing of the Democratic Party. Some here just feel that they're going well beyond their bounds and are becoming more Repub-lites than moderates. For example, some of their members don't approve of Howard Dean being the DNC Chair.

Here's their website ~~~> http://www.dlc.org/


The DNC is the Democratic National Committee, run by Howard Dean.. Who by the way is doing a great job (despite Rethug rumors spouting out the opposite) ~~~> http://www.democrats.org/

So the DLC is the much more centrist group of Democrats.. while the DNC is generally more to the left. :shrug:

Some here are upset with the DLC because a few of their members have said some pretty stupid things lately about Dean, etc.. :crazy:

They're right to be angred by some of the moves the DLC has made..

Here's the deal though.. in the end; (once we have a Democratic nominee) both sides come together in support. They always do.
:grouphug:

A LOT of the anti-DLC comments you see are from sincere DU'ers who are fed up with some of their ideas and comments.. And a small fraction of those who send continual anti-DLC posts are doing it because they love to see the rift it causes between Democrats. :hide: (the ones the moderators tag as "flaimbaits")

At the end of the day.. regardless of whether our nominee was part of the DNC, or part of the DLC, or maybe even a member of both.. and despite the back and forth bickering -- all Democrats come together in support. ~~~ Always. :hug:

[depakid]

72. Yahn- So, how long have you been on this site?

If you don't like the progressive bent, then I'm sure you can find other sites that are more to your liking...

[LittleClarkie]

77. Or if others don't like that not every poster is in lockstep

with what they consider progressive ideals, then they also can find somewhere else to go. I believe a few, when they realized the rules state that working against the Dem Party or promoting other than Dem candidates wasn't allowed, beat feet.

We're all here until a mod or Skinner kicks us off. So I don't quite understand the "I belong here. You leave." "No, I belong here. YOU leave" mentality.

All y'all are here, and neither has a say in who goes bye bye. So why fight about it?

[depakid]

78. These posts come up at least several times a year

There used to be alot more of them back in the days :waxing nostaligic: of the Green/Dem wars.

Now those could really get heated! ;-)

[rman]

84. Sure, and DLC types don't mind most of DU not being in lockstep

with the DLC, do they? Hence the claims that DU is "Not Liberal Underground or Leftist Underground".

In spite of DU polls showing exactly the opposite.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1959694&mesg_id=1959694

[Fleshdancer]

73. This is Democratic UNDERGROUND....

which meant, IMO, that all people left of center had a safe place to vent, complain, and bitch about politics in general.

[Lorien]

75. So I guess if this were "republican underground"

you would argue that it wasn't "Conservative underground" or "right wing underground"?

If one is a Democrat, one is liberal and leans to the left. If you are neither, perhaps a different party affiliation is in order.

[LittleClarkie]

79. But if one is Green, and telling Dems they are too Conservative

Perhaps a Green Underground is in order.

I think the OP feels secure in his/her Dem-ness, but is feeling alienated by those who might consider some of his/her positions too conservative.

He/she's not trying to kick anyone off so much as giving notice that he/she figures that they have a place here, and that if others have a problem with that, they can boogie.

Being told how wrong the Democrats are by someone who ain't can, I'm afraid, gets a bit wearing. Forgive the battle fatigue.

[snot]

76. Personally, I want to hear a range of views . . .

so long as they're informed by real experience or consideration, and are sincerely held.

[renaissanceguy]

88. I think there are several people on here

who like making excuses for career politicians (i.e. "This isn't about principle, it's about winning elections.") That's like people defending corrupt coworkers who want to hold onto their jobs and move up the corporate ladder. It just doesn't make sense.


http://www.cafepress.com/liberalissues.21272015

[emanymton]

80. Underground. Maybe Democratics Learn To Listen.

Underground moving in correct direction BEFORE rest catch on. When Democratics learn to listen to the people, the Democrats realize underground was there first.

Bush Lied. People Died. Media Cheered.

[rman]

82. This is not CENTRIST Underground

Centrist/'moderate' is mainstream - their platform is the Mainstream Media. Those to the Right have places elsewhere, those to the Left have a place here, in the UNDERGROUND.

[rman]

83. Pro-DLC: 9% - Anti-DLC: 78%

DU polls on the matter speak for themselves

It's peculiar the DLC supporters keep forgetting this. I mean, this isn't exactly the first time this issue has come up.

Do you support the DLC?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1959694&mesg_id=1959694

[CWebster]

85. Ah, so you are taking it upon yourself to suggest

That liberals or Leftists (now occupying the space of traditional liberals) are not welcome in your bid for unity?

My, how that smacks of DLC inclusivesness.

[Skinner]

89. Locking.

We permit centrists and liberals to post on Democratic Underground.