CAFTA THREAD #4

[ncrainbowgrrl]

Thread #3 is over here- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1963438

[meganmonkey]

1. How much longer can they drag it out?

I need to go to bed but I am too anxious :shrug:

[Coexist]

11. me tpo

Ooh

list of holdouts - I can't type that fast - Damn.

[jefferson_dem]

2. Hold on folks - CAFTA needs 218 to pass!

Not just a simple majority.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=DVXA,DVXA:2005-05,DVXA:en&q=cafta+218+votes

We just may pull this one out. :scared:

But you know the Repuke leaders will hold the vote open long enough to whip their scum myrmidons into shape.

[napi21]

4. Yea, I don't understand that! The time expired a long time ago!

Wouldn't the rules say that they'd have to have another vote? If time doesn't matter, why have a clock at all?????

[dweller]

6. shades of Medicare vote n/t

dp

[Skip Intro]

9. can they just let it go on indefinately? how symbolic

a body that breaks its on rules while designing ours

[Armstead]

5. I can't watch anymore

My stomach will explode.

[Robert Oak]

7. WHY WHY WHY wasn't this a DU activity? n/t

[arcos]

12. That's what I wonder...

and some of us tried...

[Robert Oak]

102. activist MUST get hip on economic issues

I try so hard to point out the details and it falls on deaf ears.

We need to get people to realize it's economic war. No middle class,
no democracy and we just witnessed more of this tonight.

[unlawflcombatnt]

85. DU Activity

Robert,

That's an outstanding question. I'd like the know the answer to that one myself. I tried to keep my own thread on CAFTA alive for the last couple of weeks, so it wouldn't get lost in the shuffle.

This is one we could have won and now we are really, really screwed. This hurts everyone. Congress simply didn't listen to their constituents. Instead they listened to their big campaign contributors. (i.e., Corporate America.)

This is just disgusting. This will have permanent repurcusions for our economy.

unlawflcombatnt

[Nite Owl]

8. It's still the same

214/211

0:00 time remaining

[DURHAM D]

10. If they don't get 218 votes I bet some of the Dems who voted

for it will change their vote back to no. I am not watching. Are any of the already no voting Dems hanging out in the well?

[Armstead]

15. They can't switch votes back can they?

[DURHAM D]

30. Yes. Its not over until its over. Unless they have some

special rules for this vote.

[jefferson_dem]

19. Can't tell. The bigger question is who are the 8 Repukes and are they

hanging around ready to fall on their sword.

Just heard that Marty Meehan (MA) has not votes, FWIW.

[Up2Late]

Why 218?

What's up with that?

And the Criminal from Texas, NO! the other one, The guy who's name IS what is happening right now in the House, said he would hold the Vote open until he get the votes.

Could be a long night.

[jefferson_dem]

25. That's an absolute (rather than a simple) majority of the body - 435/2.

I guess that's the rule for trade agreements.

[RoyGBiv]

58. Not exactly ...

A simply majority is needed to pass. A guaranteed simply majority is 218. However, if anyone doesn't vote, the majority of those who did vote is what counts.

So, in the vote that just took place, there were two non-votes, and the measure passed 217-215.

[GOPNotForMe]

3. The House are such divas.

Just vote and get it over with one way or another. Damn, this bitch has to work tomorrow.

[Robert Oak]

13. cspan just named reps who haven't voted

dem was from Mass, didn't catch entire name

[ncrainbowgrrl]

14. Meehan (sp?)

[Armstead]

17. Yep

I'm surprised he's AWOL....I figured he'd be a sure No vote

[Sydnie]

27. Where the hell is he?

Meehan better not pass on voting on this one. Where is Barney Frank to put the pressure on him to vote, damnit!

[Up2Late]

21. From Massachusetts

:shrug:

[GOPNotForMe]

16. Marty Meahan (D) not voting (not sure if male or female) nt

[AndrewJacksonFaction]

22. It's a Pat. uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

[Panda1]

18. Marty Meehan n/t

n/t

[Sgent]

20. I think we can get 3

The two R's from LA and the Dem. Just need two more.

[napi21]

24. I'm not interested in the Dem who didn't vote yet, I want to know

who the 8 Pubs are. I suspect that lone non voting Dem is holding out until the very end. I also think that Hastert and DeLay are 2 of the Pubs. Can't guess on the rest.

[Panda1]

62. They were.....

Boustany
Gingrey
Capito
Fitzpatrick
Simmons
Taylor (NC)
LaTourette
and Davis..don't know which Davis.

[napi21]

87. Thanks. Nobody I recognize. I guess the House doesn't do

what the Senate does.

The leaders always wait until last to vote, I guess so they can claim they were the deciding votes or something like that.

[jefferson_dem]

26. Right. But technically it doesn't matter unless he would have voted yes.

The main deal now is to keep that 214 where it is. It really doesn't matter how many vote against at this point.

[KoKo]

23. Charles Taylor NC Repug...hasn't voted yet. He's hated here

and a Dem is going to run against him....I don't think any Dem in NC voted for the damned thing. The textile and furniture job losses have devastated us.

[KoKo]

36. Must be alot of arm twisting and deals going on in that back room...

Sheesh...

[KoKo]

47. Two votes? Passed by two? Dreadful...

[realFedUp]

28. any sounds of breaking bones?

gads....

[realFedUp]

31. Marty Meehan just cast his vote....

looks like he went for CAFTA

[Robert Oak]

39. no, against if this is the dem had to

15 has been the Dem traitor number for at least a half hour.

[Coexist]

29. 216/210

damn - only one more.

[meganmonkey]

33. He said 216/211

[realFedUp]

34. 216-211

[LSK]

32. 2 votes away, 7 votes left

FUCK

[Armstead]

43. Would love to see a Republican courage moment

A longshot, but the holdouts could take credit for killing this if they stick to their guns.

Oh well, I can dream at least....

[ncrainbowgrrl]

45. Passed.

:cry:

[Reciprocity]

35. Keep posting.

Hubby is watching Catch 22. So I need my fix from you all.

[meganmonkey]

40. Oooh that's a great movie based on a great book

[Reciprocity]

52. Yeah it’s at the point

where the General is having to pin a medal on a naked man.

[Coexist]

37. 217/213

[Coexist]

38. 217/215

[Coexist]

41. Passed - fuck.

[realFedUp]

42. Bill passed.

fuck

[LSK]

44. JUST ANNOUNCED IT PASSED

FUCK YOU TRAITORS

FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU

[jsamuel]

50. Disgraceful

[Sapphire Blue]

54. 217 yea/ 215 nay/ 2 NV = Passed???

Slam down the gavel before the last 2 votes???

[LSK]

57. i guess???

Maybe someone is not in town to vote???

[Sapphire Blue]

66. I'd guess it's another Rethug abuse of power.

[SeanQuinn]

68. C-SPAN Announcer said Chair had right to end vote at any time.

Is it a possibility these two GOPers were thinking of maybe voting with us, causing a tie and a whole spiel? Most likely. Or there is the possibility they weren't going to show up. Which is just plain stupid.

[Sapphire Blue]

78. And the Chair called the vote just in time to prevent a tie.

Heil!!!

[realFedUp]

46. List of Dems who voted for this?

and did they vote for the bankruptcy bill also?

[LSK]

49. eventually on house.gov

Also keep an eye on here: http://www.vote-smart.org/

[TheFarseer]

48. It must be over one way or the other

they're voting on Maria Day or something now

[woodsprite]

51. The Dems should be

taking everything that the pubs are doing, whatever they stand for, etc. and shove it up their patoot, especially when strong arm tactics are used like this. Of course, somebody in DE should do the same to Carper right about now!

Instead, they hand EVERYTHING to them on a silver platter. Only a handful of people that supposedly work for us in DC, deserve to be there. Everyone else needs to be replace. How 'bout we trade out all repubs for dems and all dems for repubs - just switch 'em. I bet we wouldn't be able to tell much difference.

[jsamuel]

56. I dont' think our party realized how much this means to the US

They should have been 100% against this bill...

Morals?

[Tux]

64. 15 Dems

Need to be out of work in 2006 and see what the job market will be like. That will show them that DLC hates America just as much as neocons and red state freepers.

[Reciprocity]

65. I hear you Woodsprite. Give em hell!

[Up2Late]

53. What happened, did they gavel it when it hit 218?

I looked away, and now they are voting on some bogus Boating bill.

[Sapphire Blue]

59. 217 yea/ 215 nay/ 2 NV = Passed???

They slammed down the gavel before the last 2 votes... could have been a tie???

[ncrainbowgrrl]

60. No- it was still 217-215

Looks like the republican leadership didn't trust the remaining members of their party to actually vote...

[LSK]

61. they announced it passed 217 - 215

Im wondering why they didnt wait for 218.

[Rainscents]

55. This is fucking sick and disgraceful... I am very sick to my stomach!

[datadiva]

63. Suggestion

Since we may all have to get a presctiption soon for aspirin, may I suggest we all stock up? And vote for some real Democrats next time around. I would like to commend the Repubs who voted no on their bravery. :cry: :banghead:

[Tux]

69. Good idea

Stock up on over the couter meds while you can. Even if you have to get them from Wal-Mart (:puke: :argh: :banghead: ) so your family has access to them when needed. I see healthcare cost increasing faster than ever over this. Next time, it maybe tampons and pads.

[realFedUp]

74. the little Cspan info didn't state that.....

happy little corporate description of CAFTA....

[Reciprocity]

79. I too would like to thank the Repubs for their their bravery.

My husband and I are like two blueberries in a sea of tomato sauce here in East Texas. But even in his family, I am hearing the rumblings buyer remorse. I think if we can but up a real Democrat we may have a shot.

[Idioteque]

67. It's time for a new whip!!!

All we needed was two dems to switch. TWO!! God damn we should have been able to bribe two people into changing their vote.

[fugwb]

71. How will this play out for the freeps? Can't we expect to gain from this?

[sadiesworld]

76. Agreed.

Oust the 15 so-called dems and replace Pelosi. It's time for some tough love.

[realFedUp]

83. what are you going to bribe them with?

Dems don't have the lockbox full of goodies
right now.

[Panda1]

70. Roll Call (edit...wrong link)

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll442.xml

Are they able to change their vote after the gavel?


edit:
Sorry, this is the wrong link...the final vote was 217 to 215 for passage of CAFTA.


Correct link...sorry for the confusion.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll443.xml

[KoKo]

72. The final vote seems to have changed. Did reps change vote afterward?

FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 442
(Republicans in roman; Democrats in italic; Independents underlined)

H RES 386 YEA-AND-NAY 27-Jul-2005 8:15 PM
QUESTION: On Agreeing to the Resolution
BILL TITLE: Providing for consideration of the bill (H.R. 3045) to implement the Dominican Republic-Central America-United States Free Trade Agreement

Yeas Nays PRES NV
Republican 227 3
Democratic 200 2
Independent 1
TOTALS 227 201 5

[Idioteque]

82. That is the vote on the rule to consider the bill...

...The vote on the bill is here!

[LSK]

84. thanks

[LSK]

73. why does that site show 227 YEAS??

[KoKo]

75. I guess they must.. I saw this happen a couple of weeks ago where

totals changed afterwards. Seems kind of cowardly. To switch after the fact.

[Tux]

77. Fuck this

I am sick of Ron Lewis' crap. Stupid neocon. If I can run for office (only got $1,000 for it) or get help from Dems (yeah), I will run against this bastard and repeal this shit. Anyone thing I should try?

[realFedUp]

80. I don't think this is the right vote call.....this was at 8: something....

[Panda1]

86. I'm confused.

I saw the vote...it was 217 to 215..it passed but that link shows a totally different time and vote. Perhaps that's the earlier vote to stop debate?

[LSK]

89. it was roll call 443, link here

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll443.xml

[SeanQuinn]

81. Wrong vote in link. The vote was TO CONSIDER CAFTA, not TO IMPLEMENT it.

It's a little odd, but they voted on House Resolution 386, which was to consider CAFTA and put it on the agenda. That vote passed yesterday, which is the one in the link. Implementing CAFTA was sadly done tonight. :(

[Panda1]

88. Thanks, that explains it.

They don't make it easy, do they?

[SeanQuinn]

90. Oh, I would've fallen for it too.

But I was just looking up that other resolution, in the same hope you had Panda, in finding a roll call vote count.

[realFedUp]

91. David Sirota on this final vote

http://www.davidsirota.com/

VOTE ALERT: 15 Dems Cast Deciding Vote to Pass CAFTA

CAFTA just passed by one vote, 217-215 (a tie vote would have killed it). Fifteen Democrats voted for the corporate-written trade pact, meaning each of them cast the deciding vote. Meanwhile more than 20 Republicans voted against it. The sheer politics of this shows exactly why the Democratic Party, as it currently exists, cannot hope to be a majority party without a fundamental realignment of the way it works, and a fundamental rejection of the influence of groups like the DLC who pushed this bill. The fact is, parties serious about regaining political power do not lose votes when their opponents give them more than 20 votes. When the list of the 15 Democratic sellouts is posted at the official House of Representatives site, I will do some further analysis to see which of these Democrats have been selling out Democrats on other key economic issues - and which should thus expect to be targeted in primaries for defeat by labor and the progressive community as a whole.

[realFedUp]

92. Roll call vote is here....

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll443.xml

[realFedUp]

93. List here of 15 Dems

Bean
Cooper
Cuellar
Dicks
Hinojosa
Jefferson
Matheson
Meeks-NY
Moore-KS
Moran-VA
Ortiz
Skelton
Snyder
Tanner
Towns

[realFedUp]

97. Norm Dicks is from Washington St....why would he vote for this?

[realFedUp]

98. and this is what Sirota said about Gregory Meeks of NY:

WFP, however, has also shown a willingness to take it to Democrats in safe districts who think they can sell out working people in New York. This is a muscular organization that doesn't screw around - and my bet is if there are New York City Democrats who vote for both the bankruptcy bill and CAFTA, those Democrats are going to find themselves face-to-face with a primary challenge.

For instance, there's Rep. Greg Meeks (D-NY). Meeks is playing footsie with the Bush administration and Corporate America, threatening to undermine Democrats and vote for CAFTA. And he not only voted for the Bankruptcy Bill, he actually signed a letter to Republican House Speaker Denny Hastert demanding the bankruptcy bill be passed immediately. This from a Congressman who represents a safe Democratic, working-class district.

If I were Meeks - or any other Democrat with a WFP-like force in my district - I would think very hard about whether I really want to sell my soul on the CAFTA vote. Remember, the powerful grassroots group Moveon.org showed no hesitation in going after Democrats who voted for the bankruptcy bill. That highlighted the fact that labor and the progressive movement in general seems just pissed enough (and rightly so) that the political dynamic is fundamentally changing for those Democrats who think they can walk all over working people with no consequences.

To be sure, if progressives are willing to hold Democrats feet to the fire, we will undoubtedly see a much more unified and effective Democratic Party in the future. That is ultimately the point – you can't hope to build a Democratic Party that stands for something, yet continue to coddle party members who stand for nothing other than selling out to the highest big-money bidder. And as much as Democrats may whine and cry, this new kind of bare-knuckled, tough, and populist progressive politics is a good thing for the Democratic Party in the long run.

[SeanQuinn]

101. Because his National Marina Day bill was up next, nt

[realFedUp]

103. is that the most ridiculous thing to follow......

you really couldn't script that.

[realFedUp]

100. Jefferson's on Ways and Meanies.....

Bill Thompson must have threatened to
take his bathroom key away from him.

[union_maid]

94. My rep voted no

It doesn't help with the vote, but it helps my blood pressure just a little.

[KoKo]

95. Good for Sirota....I found some info on House Members changing votes

since I can't understand the final tally from Roll Call:


-------------------------

Secondly, the House may hold a teller vote, in which each member signs a green card for "Aye," a red card for "No," and an orange card for "Present" (an abstention,) and hands it to a Clerk, who counts the votes.

Finally, the House may vote by electronic device. Members vote by inserting a plastic voting card, which doubles as a photo ID, into terminals located on the backs of seats in the House chamber. The member presses a red button to vote "No, "a green button to vote "Aye," and a yellow button to vote "Present." Members' names are displayed on a blue, backlit panel above the Speaker's chair, and when a member votes, a red, green, or yellow light appears adjacent to his or her name. Displays on the side walls of the chamber display a running vote total.

The recorded vote remains open for fifteen minutes, after which Members may vote in the same manner as in a teller vote, i.e. by signing a card and handing it to the Clerk, or by announcing their votes to the Clerk, but not by electronic device, until the Speaker announces the result. Some times, an important vote will be held open by the occupant of the Chair, a member of the majority party, for much longer, so that party leaders can have time to convince members to change their votes. The longest ever recorded vote was held in the early hours of November 22, 2003, when the Republican Party held a vote on a Medicare bill open for approximately three hours, during which the President himself worked to convince two Republicans who had voted "No" to change their votes to "Aye."
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:IvI1ky7MV2sJ:www.answers.com/topic/recorded-vote+House+Members+may+change+their+vote+after+roll+call&hl=en

[realFedUp]

96. The vote tally is still the same...217-215, 2 NV

[KoKo]

99. Ahhhh...thanks. Further up in the thread two of us had wrong vote from

Roll Call. It was an earlier vote to approve or something....

[Panda1]

104. Sorry, I screwed up.

I posted the link from the previous vote.
I jumped the gun. I admit to being a maroon.