Were Kerry & Edwards Right to Vote for IWR and Kucinich Wrong?

[David Zephyr]

This is a fundamental question regarding war and peace, life and death, American prestige and honor around the world and hundreds of billions of dollars of American taxpayer's money.

Did those that voted for the Iraqi War Resolution do the right thing and those that voted against it do the wrong thing? Or was it the other way around?

[redqueen]

1. If you'd have posted this question in the fall of 2002

would you expect to have seen a different response?

[maxr4clark]

30. my vote would have been the same. n/t

[edzontar]

50. On DU, it was about 99 percent anti-IWR last year.

And I am glad to see that the CORRECT analysis still rules supreme here.

Kerry in particular is weak and shameful on this issue.

He is a sure loser because of it.

[David Zephyr]

54. Seems That Some Have Now Changed Their Minds, Huh?

[Monte Carlo]

2. The problem with moral absolutism is that...

... as mortal human beings, we can never really know what is right and what is wrong; we only have educated guesses. We need to stop sorting our allies in Congress into seperate, never-the-twain-shall-meet groups.

[HFishbine]

7. Let's meet then

on the facts. It would be pretty disingenuous for Kucinich to say, "Now that Saddam is gone and our soldiers are still dying, and civilians are still dying and we know that there weren't any WMD, I was wrong to vote against the war."

It would be a lot more genuine for those who voted for the war to say, "Although Saddam is gone, this war came before all diplomatic options were exhausted, before the intellegence was fully vetted and at an emourmous cost and with great grief to American families. I shouldn't have voted for the IWR. I've learned a lesson."

What is a load of crap that will indeed keep the party divided is those who say, "Well, I wasn't mislead by the intellegence. I had bad feelings about Saddam. He was a bad guy and we're safer now that he's gone, so I stand by my vote. Just don't ask me to pay for it."

[IndianaGreen]

59. I think a vote that caused the deaths of over 10,000 people is significant

Moral relativism is bankrupt when it comes to war and peace, torture, or the death penalty.

as mortal human beings, we can never really know what is right and what is wrong; we only have educated guesses.

What's your guess about the Holocaust? or the Rwanda genocide?

[el_gato]

3. everybody knew it was propaganda

I think some people just couldn't resist it

[blm]

4. You don't support Kucinich. You support someone who was for a resolution

for use of force, too. So...what's the purpose of your poll?

DK supporters are NOT going to flock to Dean. Most know that Dean was NOT anti-Iraq-war from the beginning as he claims.

[ulysses]

11. a question, blm.

Who are you supporting? I'm curious because I don't recall having seen a post of yours recently that was more than an attack on Dean.

[sangh0]

12. Take some more looks

blm is a Kerry supporter and has not been shy about saying so. Your characterization of blm's posts is inaccurate and you should apologize for your innuendo

[JohnKleeb]

15. actually sangho I think Ive seen her in the past express support

for what she calls her special "K's", Kucinich and Kerry. I could be wrong though but thats the last I know. I can have two candiates :shrug: can't I.

[ulysses]

17. a simple statement of fact is not innuendo.

I do apologize for hurting your feelings though, sangh0.

[JohnKleeb]

13. same as me

Kerry/Kucinich
I know it sounds strange to have two candiates. Uly if you wanna know why, I support both now, pm me I will explain. The IWR vote still bothers me but there's a lot I like about Kerry, the LCV endorsement for instance.

[ulysses]

20. I don't hate Kerry

and I'm not too concerned over your having two candidates, John - I all but do as well. :hi:

[JohnKleeb]

23. you've always struck me as a good guy uly

I dont like his IWR vote and I admit its uneasy but ya know I am sorta a pacifist and I feel of the all the major candiates excluding DK and Sharpton, Kerry is teh least hawkish, historically for sure. Plus lol I love those MA liberals lol.

[ulysses]

29. same to you

:hi:

[JohnKleeb]

32. Thanks

All is good.

[blm]

22. Bingo. Kerry and Kucinich. The Special Ks.

My posts against Dean are based on his record of too far right positions.

I also see Dean as an obstacle to exposing the BFEE. That matters to me most of all.

[ulysses]

24. thank you.

[TLM]

38. Well how can that be?

"My posts against Dean are based on his record of too far right positions. "

Yet you support Kerry, who voted for the IWR, the NCLB act, the patriot act, 350 billion in tax cuts, is against the UN, and told dems mad about the 2000 elections to "Stop crying in your tea cups and just get over it."



"I also see Dean as an obstacle to exposing the BFEE. That matters to me most of all."

Yeah, I'm still confused by this argument... if Kerry has all this dirt on W and the BFEE, why isn't he coming forward with it? Why is he sitting on this info? Are you saying Kerry will only do what is right and expose Bush IF he gets elected?

[lcordero]

57. and said that Bush is a "good man"

[TLM]

33. No matter how many times you try to use this argument....

The IRW and Biden Lugar were not the same thing.

Saying that BL and IWR were the same because they both had provisions that would allow use of force, is like saying spanking your child is the same thing as stabbing them, because both use force.

Dean never claimed to be anti-war. He was anti-war without justification. He would support use of force against Iraq IF certain criteria had been met. That criteria was never met.

Dean, just like Kucinich, did NOT support the IWR that Kerry, Edwards, Lieberman, and Gephardt lined up to vote YES on.

Spin as hard as you can... you can not change the fact that Dean was against the IWR and Kerry supported it. Dean knew it was a mistake, as did Kucinich... but Kerry was either ignorant or complicit.

[DjTj]

5. Bush was wrong.

Kucinich was right.
Edwards and Kerry made mistakes.

I didn't vote in the poll.

[JohnKleeb]

9. I admit they were wrong too

DK was right. But do Kerry and Edwards have some qualities and issues I really like, you bet. Thats why those two are in my top 3.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. Kerry knew better

After his "investigations" into BCCI and Iran Contra, he should have known better than to believe the Bush propaganda - what with all of the intelligence agents and Iraq weapons inspectors saying the same thing as Kucinich.

Kerry did it for political reasons. He sold us out. It's not the first time. Why anyone can trust him now, I have no idea.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

6. No. They were ALL right to vote according to their consciences.

[girl gone mad]

8. Unless..

you can see inside their heads, I don't think you can say that.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

14. You do our fine candidates a disservice.

[redqueen]

16. By pointing out the obvious? n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. By assuming the basest motives of good, honorable people.

I have the feeling Dennis would not agree with you.

[redqueen]

45. Please

Nobody's assuming anything... wait, except you.

You're assuming they did what their conscience told them.

We're not assuming anything.

And stop with the 'Dennis would...' -- it' so tacky.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

48. Please

We are both assuming something.



I am assuming they did vote their conscience.

Because I think they are good, honorable men, who are doing their best to do what's right.




You are assuming they did not vote their conscience.

I don't know why.

[redqueen]

49. Show me where I assumed that.

Please. :)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. I'm not trying to convince you of anything; I'm stating my opinion.

Peace.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

28. apologists for collaborators do our party a disservice

The facts are clear - some candidates chose to collaborate with Bush for political reasons. They are the ones that did the party a disservice.

[iowapeacechief]

21. I agree, and I did not...

...vote in this poll.

I support Kucinich--who voted "right" as far as I am concerned.

But I also respect those who voted yes on IWR as a matter of conscience. The $86 billion supplemental matters more, but I vote for giving up the fake dichotomy between so-called "pro-war" and "antiwar" candidates. Vision for the future of Iraq and a nonprovocative US military doctrine matters far more.

Again, Kucinich is best, but that doesn't make the others "wrong".

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. You DO know the path of peace!

:thumbsup:

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. Dennis was right

Kerry and Edwards were wrong.

[Cheswick2.0]

18. Edwards and Kerry were wrong and now they are weasels

DK was right.

[arewethereyet]

60. They were honest and concerned about the welfare of America

we gave peace a chance, Hussein did not. It goes that way a lot.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

19. Black and White World

must be interesting to live there.

[Forkboy]

42. Black and white

but at least not a brown nose like some candidates.

[mmonk]

26. Kucinich was correct.

No spin can change it. If Kerry or Edwards think they were misled, they need to say so. It was a distraction from terrorism and has temporarily created an area of instability and more terrorism. Saddam could have been toppled at some other time later.

[cthrumatrix]

27. you are correct ...sir

[sandnsea]

31. Dennis was wrong in one way

He should have voted his conscience and I don't fault him for that. But if he truly believed inspectors had to go back in Iraq, then he had a responsiblity to make sure that happened. Peaceful means had been tried and had failed. Dennis has not addressed how he would have insured inspectors went back into Iraq or how he would have insured weapons weren't sold to Iraq in the future.

Alot of people have gotten away with not answering the important details regarding their Iraq position. It's easy to say no, it's not so easy to have a real plan to resolve these difficult problems.

[plurality]

34. don't know if you noticed it

but there were inspections going on in Iraq for 5 months before a shot was fired, so your statement that, "peaceful means failed to bring inspections" is false.

[sandnsea]

40. The VOTE, the VOTE, the VOTE

Damnation. The vote was in October and there were no fucking inspectors in Iraq at the time. The war started 6 goddamn months later and the majority of the lies and misrepresenations happened between the vote and the launch of the war. Get your timeline straight here.

[plurality]

43. my timeline is straight

you said "peaceful means had failed" and they hadn't. and don't act like bush didn't start lying about iraq until after the vote, he'd been lying about iraq since day 1.

[sandnsea]

47. To get inspectors in??

When did inspectors have complete cooperation from Iraq? Hans Blix said in February he didn't think he was getting complete cooperation. That was with troops lined up at the border. How was Dennis going to get that kind of cooperation back in October? He never said.

[plurality]

52. when did Hans Blix say, "This isn't working bring in the B2s."?

Funny the only thing I heard him say is, "we're making progress, but we need more time."

[no name no slogan]

36. Inspectors already WERE back in Iraq

before BushCo invaded-- you seem to have missed this point. They were trying to do their jobs while being led on a wild goose chase by BushCo and his gang of criminals, who fed them bogus info on WMD sites.

Remember, Iraq NEVER kicked out inspectors in the first place-- they were originally withdrawn by Clinton in 1998 hours before US airstrikes took place, and withdrawn AGAIN by Shrub in Feb before the war. Iraq prevented them from coming back in after the attacks because there was credible evidence suggesting that some UN inspectors were working for the CIA-- which was later confirmed by the US government in 2001.

The press and BushCo liked to paint the Iraqis as "evasive" with the inspectors, but keep in mind the inspectors were trying to get access to places that were not part of the original truce agreement-- like government ministries, palaces, etc.-- places where it would be IMPOSSIBLE to hide/build WMDs.

DK saw through the b.s. that Shrub and his Repub cronies were putting forth-- like many of us who knew their "history". He knew that they wanted a war with Iraq, and he knew that their IWR was just a way to slap legitimacy on an illegal and immoral invasion.

[sandnsea]

41. See #40

And what happened in 1998 is completely irrelevant. There was more to the inspectors leaving Iraq, but I'm not arguing the whole damn thing to people who insist on mixing up the facts and circumstances at the time of the vote with the facts and circumstances at the time of the invasion.

[Uzybone]

35. DK was right

Kerry Edwards were wrong.....so were Dean and Clark for supporting use of force vs Iraq, only difference is that they had no vote in the US congress.

[dolstein]

44. Howard Dean said he would have voted for the Biden-Lugar resolution

Since both Biden and Lugar ended up voting for the resolution sponsored by McCain and Lieberman, do we really know whether Dean would have behaved any differently from Kerry and Edwards if he had been in the Senate? I don't think so.

[Cocoa]

46. I liked Dennis's vote better than Edwards and Kerry's

but I don't think the vote caused the war. Bush did.

[isbister]

53. other

Three Senators with different positions

[Desertrose]

55. I hate to put it in that context...

someone is right therefore the others must be wrong.

I think that is part of the problems in this country.

I 'm guessing Kerry & Edwards felt they had to vote the way they did....we were whipped into a patriotic frenzy at that time and majorly lied to by the bushwa regime.

But I like to think that our leaders can see through all the spin and I think its very important that they are able to do that. The only one who has consistently shown to me he can do that is Dennis Kucinich.

I am glad he voted the way he did...he voted his heart.

Peace
DR

[corporatewhore]

56. Ugghh IWR doesnt matter it is what they are going to do to get

our troops home ALIVE and Soon.In my eyes kerry dean and edwards are the same because my father will be redeployed regardless

[AP]

58. I was relieved by their votes. A no vote would have been spun into being

bad on national security, which is already the biggest hurdle for voters to get over when electing a Democrat to any federal office.

I think Iowa proves they made the right choice.

[Leilani]

61. So then it's purely political?

Is that what you're saying?

That's my problem with this entire thing...it's all politics.

What do you say to the families of over 500 dead & over 2000 seriously wounded?

It was a good vote for political reasons?