Delusional anti-DLCers - here are your choices for 08

[Can o Beans]

A. A radical Neo-Con like Jeb.
B. A moderate/centrist Dem like Hillary

There is no choice "C". There won't be one in 08 either.

You get to decide which one we have. Will it be A or B?

Do you want 8 more years of stifling neo-conservatism? Or do you want someone who will represent your interests at least some of the time?

You get to decide for all of us. I hope you can handle it.

Can

[Goldmund]

1. What, dude?

Who says there is no choice "C"???

[Can o Beans]

4. The people of this country have already decided that.

There will be no C. You may think there is, but there isn't. C is simply A in disguise.

[Goldmund]

18. Really, now?

I didn't know that people in this country decide elections 3 years in advance, and when they do they apparently send an email to Can o Beans. :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

47. Perhaps Can o Beans has them on "ignore." nt

[Greyhound]

2. and you call others delusional? n/t

[MercutioATC]

3. You're absolutely right. Let the DLC handle it.

They've made such wonderful decisions in the past....

:eyes:

[Can o Beans]

5. Hey, I don't like it either.

But it is what it is.

[endarkenment]

12. why?

The DLC is a small group with over-inflated egos. They did not win their fight with the progressive wing over the chairmanship of the DNC and I see no reason why we have to pay any attention at all to anything they have to say.

They can, as far as I'm concerned, fuck off.

[MercutioATC]

23. If we follow this advice, you're correct.

Seems to me, there were a whole lot of people who couldn't vote at all about 50 years ago because "it is what it is".

[unschooler]

6. I'd take Hillary in a minute, but Jebbie would trounce her.

Sad to say. It would really stink to run a DLCer and still lose because America thinks she's a man-hating pinko radical lefty. If we're going to run a centrist, let's pick one who can WIN.

[Can o Beans]

10. I don't care if it is Hillary or not.

DLC centrist types are the only chance we have. The ONLY chance. It's time for the delusional nutjobs around here to get used to that, and realize that they are the ones who get to decide.

[unschooler]

16. I'd love to see any democrat in the White House.

If dems had been united around DLCer Al Gore, we'd be in Kyoto and not in Iraq.

[Clark2008]

17. No - they are not.

General Clark is not DLC, but is perceived to be a moderate because of his military service.
He is, however, very liberal.

He's also Southern and handsome, two other things the sheeple seem to like. Little would they know he's actually intelligent, has a masters in economics and ran NATO like a governor would a small state.

[Goldmund]

19. Delusional nutjobs? Did you get that line from Rush?

:eyes:

[1932]

7. Obama, although not a choice for '08, embodies both anti-DLC'ness and the

sort of candidate who could appeal to a broad range of voters in the middle (as he proved in his Illinois election where he got something like 50% of the Republican vote with a message that was very progressive).

I like to think there are many Democrats out there who can fit that bill for '08.

[endarkenment]

9. I have no clue what he stands for. nt.

[1932]

36. He's anti-DLC. He made that clear during the primaries, and he

stands for the idea that the working person should have equal opportunity on a level playing field, no matter where they came from, and that they should be able to realize a fair percentage of the valuable contribution they make to society.

Pro-corporate dems work from the proposition that employers and retailers should get a pretty big percentage of the wealth the middle class creates, but so long as we give the people on the plantation a minimum level of care and comfort, nobody will complain that most of what they create goes to very very rich people.

I think Obama did a pretty good job of making sure that people understood that that was what his campaign was about.

[endarkenment]

8. If Hillary is our nominee I will of course support her.

I just think that she would be pretty far down on my list.

A lot of us had reservations about Kerry's indecipherable position on the Iraq war, but we worked our asses off for him. We will do it again. But that doesn't mean that we won't try our best to make sure we don't get stuck with another DLC compromise.

[Can o Beans]

13. All I am saying is this:

If we nominate a non-centrist, we get 8 more years of Bush. And the my-way-or-the-highway radical left wing anti-DLCers of our party are the ones who get to decide that.

[endarkenment]

21. Oh not that again.

We've gone the centrist route and it doesn't work. All that happens is the fascist wing of the republican party uses our wishy-washy centrism to move the whole political debate further right and kick our asses at the same time. No thanks. We might indeed lose anyway, but at least lets lose for something we actually believe in, rather than some republican-lite corporate agenda.

[rateyes]

39. I'm with YOU endarkenment!! eom

[mrdmk]

52. Where the hell have I heard that term before?????

:crazy:

Here is another, "electable". B/S

We need to fix the House and Senate in 2006 and keep our act together then think about the elections in 2008.

[GoreDean2008]

11. I Won't Let DLC Force Me to Vote for Someone I Don't Like

I will leave my answer to this.

[Can o Beans]

14. Fine. I blame you if the next president is Condi or Bush.

nfm

[GoreDean2008]

22. This Kind of Nasty Threat

will definitely make me NOT vote for Hillary if she runs in 2008. Don't put Democratic voters into a corner and force them to vote for "the dissatisfying but the only choice." I am very offended by your remarks. I did not have a good perception on DLC and I am more angered by such pressure tactic that you are using. There is no difference between DLC and GOP. They are one and same and the only difference is the party affiliation.

[marions ghost]

ditto

the OP's argument is SO 2004...

If they put up a DLC candidate in 08 it would be so stupid.

[bloom]

33. And I could just as easily blame YOU

and people like you for why we don't have a viable OPPOSITION candidate instead someone who is more of the same only prettier.

[stray cat]

42. No one will force you. We can elect a radical republican again

Conservatives seem to be able to work together, compromise and win elections. We remain splintered and can't get our act together. We wait for the perfect candidate...... and republicans win elections because they stay united. Bill Clinton became president because the right ran a more conservative candidate than daddy Bush. The republicans learned, progressives don't seem to have figured it out yet.

I do not know who will win the democratic primaries but if the person has integrity I will probably be voting for them. I do think their is a difference between Al Gore and Bush. I've learned that since 2000.

[Clark2008]

15. Who says Hillary will be the nominee?

I personally will work my ass off to see that is NOT the case.

The choice "B" will be a real Democrat who is PERCEIVED as a moderate, but is a liberal instead of a Democrat who is PERCEIVED as a flaming liberal, but is, in fact, the next furthest thing from it besides a Republican.

[HereSince1628]

20. So, you think she is only useful as an "anybody but" candidate...

I think _that_ sentiment can be sidelined until after a clear win in the primaries.

I'll remain hopeful that there will be a Democrat that will have a campaign that attracts votes by being something besides being the lesser of two evils.

[welshTerrier2]

24. that was last year's ABB argument ...

and ABB is DEAD, finito, Kaput !!!

do you believe your powers of persuasion are going to convince those who believe the Democratic Party doesn't represent them to vote for candidates who ignore them?

someone is delusional ... you were certainly right about that ...

instead of whining about delusional lefties, why not fight to truly make the Democratic Party a big tent that represents the interests of each and every Democrat ???

if power is not ultimately shared, unity will NOT be achieved ... the status quo must not continue ... time is growing very, very short ... push for dialog; offer compromise ...

[rateyes]

25. IMHO, the choice between A and B, as you put it..

is no choice at all. I can't tell the difference between the two these days. I used to be a Hillary fan, but now that she has told the DNC crowd basically to "shut up" and "go along" because the DLC knows what is best---not listening to it--If she is going to be the eventual nominee---she needs US to get elected---and there are a lot of people on the left who don't even bother going to the polls anymore. The further she moves to the center, the less likely they'll bother in the future. Again, IMHO, if the Dems are going to win, they better learn a lesson from the RW, who seem to be winning most of the elections these days---and, that is, you better pay attention to your base--because those are the people who actually work their butts off to get you elected, and have a reason to go to the polls.

Technically speaking, Zell Miller is a Democrat--but, I wouldn't pull a lever for him if he was running against Pat Buchanan. Why should I pull a lever for somebody who isn't going to vote my values when elected? I'm tired of voting for the "lesser of the evils." Make the "centrists" move left for one damn time--it certainly can't be any worse than it already is when it comes to winning nationally.

It also angers me that by the time I get to vote in a presidential primary, the candidate has already been ordained by Iowa and New Hampshire. I hope that regardless of where they are standing after the first few primaries that all the Dem candidates stay in the race, and keep going until another one has it "in the bag."

[wli]

26. well, vote-splitting is pretty serious

Some additional bargaining power like trying to build a coalition with Greens, Libertarians, et al may be useful.

[rateyes]

30. I hear that...but, we cannot expect the Greens and Libertarians,

etc., to help us unless we are willing to "carry their water" for them. It can't be..come help us..because you can't win...but, come help us, and we will pay attention to your concerns and help you achieve, at least some of your goals.

[wli]

37. yes, reciprocity will be necessary in such a coalition

On the other hand, they both probably want the neocons out so bad they may very well be willing to make some serious concessions.

[blondeatlast]

27. Last time I checked, the primaries hadn't occurred.

Did I sleep through 2006? Did we gain any congressional seats?

These "sos and so" in '08 arguments are tiresome and divisive.

[LittleClarkie]

28. Gee can we cast a vote first

I wonder how many folks are going to vote against Hillary in the primaries for just the reason that she's been shoved down our collective throats.

[emcguffie]

29. No, you are wrong, and we do get to decide.

Don't tell me what I can or cannot choose. I'm afraid you are seriously mistaken. Out of touch. IMHO, that is. :nuke:

So glad democracy isn't completely dead yet. At least we can remember it. So maybe we can recreate it.

[readmylips]

31. If Warren Beatty leads the fight...I'm in baby!

I'm not for any of those idiot democrats. They have not protected our nation against the bush criminals. Warren Beatty in 08.

[applegrove]

32. The neocons are very different from Bill Clinton in the 1990s. Hillary

will govern in the third way like bill. She will stock positions with people with integrity & expertese in their field - like her husband did.

There is a world of difference between Reich or Reno and the narrow neocon cabal.

I resent anyone who tries to paint true moderates as neocons. Gore? Gore would not have dismantled the Defence department.

[rateyes]

40. I hear that...and you know what, I think Gore hears it too..

after all, he did endorse Dean last time...not your typical DLC kind of guy. I think Gore has had an epiphany, if you ask me, which you didn't.:)

[applegrove]

44. I'm just saying that you cannot ignore the future and what part technology

& R&D will play. Blue corporations going around the world and sharing their wealth with proper labor practices & good corporate citizenship should be encouraged. After all with number of people in Brazil, China, India, & Russia - those countries are deveoping an American styled Middle Class and will make up a market 10 times bigger than the West right now. Right now - the West has less than a billion people. Right now - BRIC has three times that. So when these people grow there middle class - do you want to be a part of that. Or do you want to be shut out?

We can discuss this stuff without attacking each other.

Lumping moderates in with neocon is dangerous and unfair. Neocons truly are dangerous and need to be stopped. There is nothing "free trade" about bullying Venezuela or Brazil or Kenya to follow policies and programs that go against their best interest but suit neocon's remake of the world. And all three have said "UP YOURS". But ask Brazil, Kenya & Venezuela if they want all coroporations or all international trade stopped and they will say no.

The problem is distinctly the neocons & their dangerous philosophy based and uber elite and fuck anybody else.

I worry when we loose focus on who the real enemy is.

[rateyes]

48. I understand that...especially since visiting India over

10 years ago, and seeing the changes that have been made in a country with 20% of the world's population. And, if I sounded like I was attacking you, I apologize. But, the OP is telling us that a DLCer is the only choice we have...and, with what I'm hearing from the DLC right now, I'm not convinced they have the answer--not just with winning elections...but, in governing the country, and leading the free world. I don't like anyone telling me, when I don't believe it to be true, that we have to live with it the way it is...that we cannot affect positive change.

[applegrove]

55. Delusional is unfair. People have a right to be terrified of neocons

and of the collusion some industries and think tanks have with neocons. I disagree with them that we have to get rid of corporations & defense industries. We just have to get rid of the neocons. Because they are the true nuts. And I worry when I see people planning on voting for a Nader again. That is how we got into this mess to begin with.

I blame the 'thinkers' in the neocon ranks and the MBA schools that have taught so much hatred of government. I really & truly hope that those businesses that supported Bush suffer a great deal of Brand Crash and that countries all over the world stay away from said corporations and welcome blue corporations.

But the progressives are not wrong in blamine corporate America & the defense industry for sending so much money to the GOP who allowed such an 'extra-grassroots-cabal' to get control over the policies of the USA for the last 30 years.

The radical Islamist growth is a direct result of dealing with un-democratic elites in the middle east. Neocon policies fail, fail, fail & in fact make the world a whole lot more dangerous place to be. If the distribution of wealth in the ME had been somewhat descent and democractic leaders encouraged in the 1970s & 1980s - we would not be in the mess we are in now.

I do think there is a freeper element mixed in with the progressives and trying very hard to smash our democratic big tent by encouraging hatred of corporations and the lumping in of moderates with neocons. That just means there is bad information out there. Another myth spread by the desperately-to-get-richer. Because they are so afraid of living in a world where the USA will not be king. And really - every other place on the planet exists not being the biggest guy on the block. And their lives are not horrid. But to a rich uber elite in the USA - not being in total control of every facet of your life would be unbearable. So like the sociopaths who walk through our cities and destroy much with their need to fill 'the void' - the neocons run around taking from everyone. They will go down in flames at some point.

Sooner rather than later if we stop calling all the various groups under our big democratic tent names. It is not wrong for progressives to be terrified on the consolidation of corporate power. We differ only on how we want to handle the situation.

The progressives have been given a different 'reality' than moderates. Diebold is an issue the GOP will keep stirring and never solve. It pays off big time for them. We are all going on what we know and experience.

The nuts are the ones who insist on controlling what that reality is.

[bvar22]

57. She will also give everything to the Big (anti-labor) Corporations,

just like her husband did.

[applegrove]

59. Clinton pay government bills. He tried to untie American economy

from uber-rich Saudis. He tried to undo the cycle of welfare. He got the CIA & others to work on Freedom House (remember the Orange Revolution in Ukrane - that was planned & funded by getting Yugoslaves to teach activists in the Ukrane all that they knew).

But go ahead. Smash our big DU tent. I'm getting that you don't consider yourself to be strong enough to take out the neocons.

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

34. I'm goin' for option "C."

[ulysses]

35. wow! the word comes down!

:boring:

[Pithy Cherub]

38. Newsflash: You ain't the boss of me!

[nosmokes]

41. there is a choice *C*. just because you're in denial

doesn't make me delusional. my choice C may not make it to the WH, but why should i vote for another candidate that doesn't represent me or my interests? no thanks. been there done that. and look where it's gotten me. at least i'l be a wholee helluva lot happier with my choice in '08, because it'll be someone i believe in, not just someone who i think can beat bush or is the most electable. fuck that noise.

[Zorra]

43. Still don't get it, huh?

"The DLC embraces CAFTA and sells admission to its conference to corporate lobbyists," Jesse L. Jackson

[MoonRiver]

45. I'm not voting for any DINOs.

Go get a clue.

[madfloridian]

46. Calling people delusional is just really great PR.

I am not interested anymore in a group which just made a power play against the DNC. I suppport the DNC and DFA. Howard Dean speaks for me.

[applegrove]

50. Delusional is the neocons. Their policies have only panned out

politically. In terms of 'improving the world' - they always fail. Just like when they supported Saddam and elites all over the middle east. Said elites pushed Islamism as a way to keep the masses quiet not pushing for democracy.

The delusionals are the ones who keep up with the 'plan' when there is masses of evidence that it has no basis in reality & does not pan out.

The progressives have done much to improve the lives of poor, workers, & share risk across the nation. The moderates have done much to keep economy rolling, government programs sharp and deficites down.

The only delusionals are the ones who are 1) neocons 2) people who don't see the neocons as a separate and dangerous group but who lump them in with so much noise & vote for people like Nader - which gave us neocons in the first place.

It matters a great deal who you vote for.

[WI_DEM]

49. So I vote for Hillary or Joe Biden or somebody who really

represents my point of view on the war and a variety of other issues? Tough choice.

[blondeatlast]

51. Gos, now I see the light! I'm convinced.

Golly, your powers of persuasion are too much for me. :sarcasm:

If this is tyhe best the DLC enablers can do, I don't have a damn thing to worry about--their candidates don't have a chance with this type of maketing.

[JAbuchan08]

53. I have no problem with centrists I AM pretty centrist

I'm just tired of invertebrates.

[ibegurpard]

54. I will vote how I vote with my eyes wide open

If the party nominates someone I can support even tepidly then it won't be a problem for you.

[Donna Zen]

56. And the name is different...

Amazing, simply amazing! Just this morning a Hillary-DLC fan wrote that we should just "shut up and get on the bus."

Hillary cannot win, but hey, why not vote for someone who doesn't represent me, and could care less what I think.

Has anyone defined: centrist? lefty? purist?

I mean in policy terms; what exactly does that mean? I support a budget that pays the bills, transparent government, universal health-care, a progressive tax code, a trade policy that while open is not a race to bottom for the worker and the environment, a living wage, a safety net, good schools, a foreign policy that makes more friends than enemies....

So how far fucking radical-left-purist can I get?

Oh, I know! Yes, I do. I don't support people who vote for bush's war all the while knowing what a sham it is. I don't support people who talk out of both sides of their mouth. I don't support professional politicians who talk left and vote right.

I guess it's getting close to the time for me to leave DU. I said I would the day people came to these boards and insisted that I vote for Hillary or be pond scum. I thought I had more time before the big bucks and the party machinery kicked in. ABB is sooooo over. Maybe the party doesn't like my kind. After all, I have a good union job, a husband of many years, a fabulous kid, a couple of houses and no credit card debt. Yeah, I'm just not their type.

[bvar22]

58. The DLC says it is people like you that are hurting the Party,

so STFU and vote for the annointed DLC candidate, or you are only helping the Republicans!

[Bluebear]

60. Any moderate centrists you have in mind? Cause Hillary ain't one

....at least to the general American populace. She is liberal, liberal, liberal in the eyes of America. Plus she is Hitlery, Clintoon, mouthy, take your pick. I don't see how she could ever win, so I guess under your scenario we are stuck with Crown Prince Jeb.

[AlienGirl]

61. Locking

This is an attack on an entire group of DUers by calling them delusional.