Freepers Questioning Kerry's war wounds (moved)

[RedSox02]

*NOTE: Moved from General Discussion thread.

This is just great. While Bush's service record during Vietnam was shady at best, Freepers are busy questioning the validity of John Kerry's wounds in Vietnam and whether they really warranted Purple Hearts and other medals.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1065436/posts

Some Classics:

Kerry must heal really fast

Kerry went their to get his number punched so he could run for high office

He probably got nervous when a heard a loud noise and cut himself shaving

If the criteria for getting a PH is that low shouldn't Al Gore get one for suffering paper cuts and carpal tunnel syndrome from using a manual typewriter during his Viet Nam service? </satire

Minimization of the number of Purple Hearts one receives is an intelligence test. Kerry FAILED.

[Poseidon]

1. Yeah

The fuckers are very fond of mocking Kerry's vietnam service. Whenever there is a thread about Kerry + Vietnam, they will always chime in with a "Kerry was in Vietnam?" like the smartasses that they are. If I was running for President, they would probably dismiss me too. THEY DISMISS KERRY AT THEIR OWN PERIL! :mad:

[Walt Starr]

2. Ya know, I hold a lot against Kerry

but this sort of thing is just plain despicable!

The man went to Vietnam, served his country bravely, is a decorated war hero, and all these idiots have is their idiot son of an asshole who sat out the war flying ancient technology when he even bothered to show up.

[aldian159]

12. Good to see you supporting Kerry

For the record, if Dean wins, all my Kerry signs are coming down.

The same goes if Edwards, Clark, etc. win.

[Cassandra]

13. I'd say we can now count you with...

the ABB crowd. But first, we both have to vote for DEAN!!

[Nicholas_J]

44. Yes

I dont listen to anyone who criticize anyone who has done anything worthy of decoration because I dont think any of them has had to make the decision to turn around and go resue a guy who was left behind when you know you are going back fully into the line of fire that you just escaped from. Sorry. I doubt anyone on DU has had that experience and that most would have pissed in their own pants even thinking about making the decision.

It was the guy who Kerry went back to rescue who recommended him for his second decoration, bronze star:

For Kerry’s bravery, Rassmann recommended that he be recognized, and Kerry was awarded the Bronze Star with Combat V. The citation that followed the award read as follows:

“The man was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lt. Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain, with disregard for his personal safety, he pulled the man aboard.

Lt. Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged craft and towed the boat to safety. Lt. Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the US Naval Service.”

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0117d.html



Besides in the military, a minor wound is something that does not prevent you from being ambulatory. If you have a would from, a gunshot, that passes though the muscle cleanly, and you can get up and go back to work within a day or two, thats a minor wound.

[MaineDem]

3. Sadly, it's not just Freepers

It's been happening here.

[TLM]

6. As it should.... 3 purple hearts in 4 months.... come on?

One injury was a shrapnel cut on his arm that caused a down time of 2 days... the other two purple hearts were awarded for injuries so minor that there was NO down time.

Doesn't that devalue the metal?

The purple heart is suposed to be for folks like max cleland and bob dole and Wes CLark... guys who are seriously / permanantly injured while serving their country.

Not for guys who got a scraped elbow or stubed toe.

[northzax]

9. As I recall

anytime you were treated by a corpsman, you became eligible for a purpl eheart, if they guy bothered to file the paperwork.

[MaineDem]

11. He didn't make up the rules

He shed blood. I don't care who the person is, that entitles him or her to the medal.

"The purple heart is suposed to be for folks like max cleland and bob dole... guys who are seriously/permanantly injured while serving their country."

Are those the stipulations for the Purple Heart?

[Poseidon]

15. No, they're not

I swear, the ignorance of some people about military regulations is just stunning. The basic requirements for a purple heart are that the wound was sustained during a combat operation, and no more than one purple heart can be given for the same incident. Each additional wound for the same incident would warrant an Oak leaf cluster upon the purple heart. Does that clarify things? By the way, Kerry is my #2 choice, MaineDem. And I have one Purple Heart from ODS.

[MaineDem]

17. I knew those weren't the rules.

I'm actually pretty knowledgeable about those things. I was questioning the previous poster.

Thanks for serving and you should be proud of your PH. Hope the wound wasn't too severe. And thanks for the explanation. :)

[Poseidon]

41. I know, MaineDem

I know you were questioning TLM. My snippy retort was not intended toward you, it was intended at him. Sorry if there was a misunderstanding. And, you're welcome. :hi:

[TLM]

19. So do you think that 3 PH in 4 months is a bit odd?

When two of those did not even result in a not fit for duty?

I'm not saying that only catastrophic injury should warrant a PH, but at some point you have to draw the line. If someone scrapes an elbow in combat, is that worthy of a PH?

What about a stubbed toe?

Maybe a bruise?

Some boot blisters maybe?

Come on... the PH is for injuries, not simply discomforts.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Poseidon]

26. Yes

This is just sickening, sangh0. :puke:

[TLM]

28. First off, Kerry was never shot...

The incident you're referring to was the one in which Kerry got the silver star and one purple heart. He pulled that guy into the boat and got grazed by shrapnel in the arm.

That caused two days down time. I have no problem with that. He deserved those metals.

He got another metal, bronze star, for chasing down and killing a retreating VC that fired on their boat and likely would have done so again. I also have no problem with that metal.

Then he got two more purple hearts for injuries so minor there was NO DOWN TIME AT ALL. I do have a problem with that.

If the medic slaps a f-ing band aid on it and you're good to go, that doesn't deserve a purple heart.

[Name removed]

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[TLM]

34. What I'm doing is asking questions about this man's record...

when he is the one who is trying to run on this record.


Do you know ANYBODY who got 3 PH in 4 months with only 2 days down time for the worst of the injuries and NO down time for the other two?

[bigtree]

47. yes

nt

[Nicholas_J]

50. Kerry had two days down time fr the most minor of the injuries

the wounds. Sorry the guy who he rescued and recommended him for the bronze star noted that Kerry was bleeding severely during the rescue, and Kerry.

Swift boats were the most dangerous assignment you could get as they were pretty much unsheilded plywood boats. 75 percent of all people who served on swift boats died on them.

How many wounds have you recieved while serving in a war zone?

[TLM]

53. And that's the one for which he got two days down time...

it was a shrapnel graze to his arm... and I have no problem with that one getting a purple heart.


And perhaps we can try real hard to address the questions at hand rather than resorting to personal attacks to avoid the issues being discussed?

[sangh0]

23. Not at all odd in a combat zone

If Kerry had volunteered for the Texas Air Nat'l Guard and had combat injuries 3 times in 4 months, it would be odd.

PS - Scraped elbows, stubbed toes, bruises and blisters do not qualify a soldier for a PH.

[TLM]

29. Care to list the 3 injuries that got Kerry purple hearts?

Since Kerry won't reveal the details of two of those injuries, we have only the records which show he was not listed as unfit for duty as a result of these injuries.

[Poseidon]

25. In addition,

Vietnam was NOT a fun place, it might be important to add. 58,000 US dead, 1 million Vietnamese dead. Hundreds upon hundreds of thousands injured. Is it that hard to believe that Kerry could have gotten shot 3 times in 4 months? We had 100 troops getting killed per day during some periods of 1968. Give me a break, TLM.

[TLM]

32. Kerry was never shot... not once.

Bullet holes tend to result in a soldier being listed as unfit for duty until they heal.

Are you seriously claiming Kerry took 3 bullets on 3 separate combat missions in 4 months, yet had no down time as a result?

[Poseidon]

33. I'm not sure

I don't know if those records or public or not, but I have never seen them. His injuries on the other two occasions are more serious than you are suggesting.

[TLM]

36. No down time.... not listed as unfit for duty....

yet he got purple hearts for them?

How serious can an injury be if you have no down time and are not listed unfit for duty as a result?

[TLM]

16. Nope, but he sure benefited from them....

3 insignificant injuries, 3 PH, and a transfer to cushy admin duties. I bet a lot of the guys out there in the jungles would have loved to get a PH for every minor injury they received so they could transfer out of combat like Kerry did.

Then he has the gall to lie about throwing those metals over the white house fence.

[MaineDem]

18. Good grief!

I give up!

[bigtree]

21. I notice that you don't provide evidence for your argument

'Tour of Duty' Explores Kerry's Vietnam Years

Morning Edition audio
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1593628

Jan. 12, 2004

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry has made his experiences during the Vietnam War a key issue in his campaign. Kerry returned from Vietnam to become a leading anti-war protestor. A new biography, Tour of Duty, is based in part on the diaries Kerry kept during the war. NPR's Juan Williams talks with author and historian Douglas Brinkley.

[TLM]

38. Oh well then, I'm sure you'll be happy to prove me wrong...

by posting the details of the 3 injuries that Kerry got Purple Hearts for.

I'll be waiting....

[bigtree]

48. No one with any dignity cares

[TLM]

54. Why won;t you prove me wrong? Isn't it so very easy to do?

I mean obviously you must have the facts to prove me wrong, given your attacks on me for daring to question Kerry.

SO please prove me wrong.... show me the details of the other two injuries that warranted purple hearts yet caused no down time and no unfit for duty rating?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[TLM]

37. What point are you arguing here?

That the military and the soldiers are important and protect freedoms... you'll get no argument from me on that point.

[Poseidon]

40. That you shouldn't criticize.

You shouldn't question why Kerry got his medals. I think this is just as bad as the people who ask Bob Kerrey to give his congressional medal of honor back and call him a murderer.

[TLM]

46. I do not agree that Kerry's military record is beyond question....

when Kerry is the one who made the choice to run on that record.

[bearfartinthewoods]

55. Kerry is making this an issue.

his record is now fair game just as dean's record as governor is.

Kerry chose to make his service a big part of his campaign.

[thebaghwan]

27. Here is the standard from the Military Order of the Purple Heart website

Here is the link: http://www.purpleheart.org/Awd_of_PH.htm

Editor's Note: The following criteria governs award of the Purple Heart in ALL branches of service, not just the United States Army. The text here is taken directly from AR 600-8-22, 25 February 1995 and Public Law 104-106 - Feb. 10, 1996
(sub-paragraphs have been indented to ease reading)

AR 600-8-22 / 25 February 1995

SEC. 571. PURPLE HEART TO BE AWARDED ONLY TO MEMBERS OF
THE ARMED FORCES.


(a) IN GENERAL.--(1) Chapter 57 of title 10, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new section:

"§ 1131. Purple Heart: limitation to members of the armed forces

"The decoration known as the Purple Heart (authorized to be awarded pursuant to Executive Order 11016) may only be awarded to a person who is a member of the armed forces at the time the person is killed or wounded under circumstances otherwise qualifying that person for award of the Purple Heart.".

(2) The table of sections at the beginning of such chapter is amended by adding at the end the following new item:

"1131. Purple Heart: limitation to members of the armed forces.".

(b) EFFECTIVE DATE.--Section 1131 of title 10, United States Code, as added by subsection (a), shall apply with respect to persons who are killed or wounded after the end of the 180-day period beginning on (18 Nov 1997) the date of the enactment of this Act.



2-8. Purple Heart

The Purple Heart was established by General George Washington, at Newburgh, New York, on 7 August 1782, during the Revolutionary War. It was reestablished by the President of the United States per War Department General Orders 3, 1932 and is currently awarded pursuant to Executive Order 11016, 25 April 1962, Executive Order 12464, 23 February 1984 and Public Law 98-525, 19 October 1984.

a. The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force or any civilian national of the United States who, while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded

(1) In any action against an enemy of the United States.

(2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged.

(3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

(4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces.

(S) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force.

(6) After 28 March 1973, as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of the Army, or jointly by the Secretaries of the separate armed Services concerned if persons from more than one service are wounded in the attack.

(7) After 28 March 1973, as a result of military operations while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.

b. While clearly an individual decoration, the Purple Heart differs from all other decorations in that an individual is not "recommended" for the decoration; rather he or she is entitled to it upon meeting specific criteria.

(1) A Purple Heart is authorized for the first wound suffered under conditions indicated above, but for each subsequent award an Oak Leaf Cluster will be awarded to be worn on the medal or ribbon. Not more than one award will be made for more than one wound or injury received at the same instant or from the same missile, force, explosion, or agent.

(2) A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.

(3) When contemplating an award of this decoration, the key issue that commanders must take into consideration is the degree to which the enemy caused the injury. The fact that the proposed recipient was participating in direct or indirect combat operations is a necessary prerequisite, but is not sole justification for award.

(4) Examples of enemy-related injuries which clearly justify award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Injury caused by enemy bullet, shrapnel, or other projectile created by enemy action.

(b) Injury caused by enemy placed mine or trap.

(c) Injury caused by enemy released chemical, biological or nuclear agent.

(d) Injury caused by vehicle or aircraft accident resulting from enemy fire.

(e) Concussion injuries caused as a result of enemy generated explosions.

(5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

(a) Frostbite or trench foot injuries.

(b) Heat stroke.

(c) Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents.

(d) Chemical, biological, or nuclear agents not released by the enemy.

(e) Battle fatigue.

(f) Disease not directly caused by enemy agents.

(g) Accidents, to include explosive, aircraft, vehicular, and other accidental wounding not related to or caused by enemy action.

(h) Self-inflicted wounds, except when in the heat of battle, and not involving gross negligence.

(i) Post traumatic stress disorders.

(j) Jump injuries not caused by enemy action.

(6) It is not intended that such a strict interpretation of the requirement for the wound or injury to be caused by direct result of hostile action be taken that it would preclude the award being made to deserving personnel. Commanders must also take into consideration, the circumstances surrounding an injury, even if it appears to meet the criteria. Note the following examples:

(a) In case such as an individual injured while making a parachute landing from an aircraft that had been brought down enemy fire; or, an individual injured as a result of a vehicle accident caused by enemy fire, the decision will be made in favor of the individual and the award will be made.

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

(c) Individuals injured as a result of their own negligence; for example, driving or walking through an unauthorized area known to have been mined or placed off limits or searching for or picking up unexploded munitions as war souvenirs, will not be awarded the Purple Heart as they clearly were not injured as a result of enemy action, but rather by their own negligence.

c. A Purple Heart will be issued to the next of kin of each person entitled to a posthumous award. Issue will be made automatically by the Commanding General, PERSCOM, upon receiving a report of death indicating entitlement.

d. Upon written application to Commander, ARPERCEN, ATIN.- DAR-P-VSEA, 9700 Page Boulevard, St. Louis, MO 63132-5200, award may be made to any member of the Army, who during World War 1, was awarded a Meritorious Service Citation Certificate signed by the Commander in Chief, American Expeditionary Forces, or who was authorized to wear wound chevrons. Posthumous awards to personnel who were killed or died of wounds after 5 April 1917 will be made to the appropriate next of kin upon application to the Commanding General, PERSCOM.

e. Any member of the Army who was awarded the Purple Heart for meritorious achievement or service, as opposed to wounds received in action, between 7 December 1941 and 22 September 1943, may apply for award of an appropriate decoration instead of the Purple Heart.

f. For those who became Prisoners of War after 25 April 1962, the Purple Heart will be awarded to individuals wounded while prisoners of foreign forces, upon submission by the individual to the Department of the U.S. Army of an affidavit that is supported by a statement from a witness, if this is possible. Documentation and inquiries Should be directed to Commander, PERSCOM, ATTN: TAPCPDA, Alexandria, VA 22332-0471.

g. Any member of the U.S. Army who believes that he or she is eligible for the Purple Heart, but through unusual circumstances no award was made, may submit an application through military channels, to Commander, PERSCOM, ATTN: TAPC-PDA, Alexandria, VA 22332-0471. Application will include complete documentation, to include evidence of medical treatment, pertaining to the wound.



PUBLIC LAW 104-106 - FEB. 10, 1996

SEC. 621. AWARD OF PURPLE HEART TO PERSONS WOUNDED WHILE HELD AS PRISONERS OF WAR BEFORE APRIL 2G, 1962.

(a) AWARD OF PURPLE HEART.—For purposes of the award of the Purple Heart, the Secretary concerned (as defined in section 101 of title 10, United States Code) shall treat a former prisoner of war who was wounded before April 25, 1962, while held as a prisoner of war (or while being taken captive) in the same manner as a former prisoner of war who is wounded on or after that date while held as a prisoner of war (or while being taken captive).

(b) STANDARDS FOR AWARD.—An award of the Purple Heart under subsection (a) shall be made in accordance with the standards in effect on the date of the enactment of this Act for the award of the Purple Heart to persons wounded on or after April 25, 1962.

(C) ELIGIBLE FORMER PRISONERS OF WAR.—A person shall be considered to be a former prisoner of war for purposes of this section if the person is eligible for the prisoner-of-war meda1 under section 1128 of title 10, United States Code.

[TLM]

39. So you can get a Purple Heart for getting the shits?

"Food poisoning not caused by enemy agents."


Good god... like a gold metal at the special olympics.

[Poseidon]

42. That's disgusting

That is just disgusting. You are demeaning the sacrifices of millions of veterans.

[TLM]

49. Not at all, my family is filled with vets....

I am arguing for the exact opposite in fact.

The vets who made major sacrifices of arms and legs and eyes and health should not have their service diminished by having the same metal that honors their sacrifices awarded to a guy who got the Ho Ci Min two step from a bad MRE.

[Walt Starr]

43. TLM, this is more to honor those who died from food poisoning

while held captive. It would also apply to those who are in a sustained engagement with the enemy and contracts food poisoning during the exteneded engagement. It would be applicable to somebody at Ke Sahn who were engaged in battle for days and may have gotten food poisoning during the action.

[TLM]

52. Nope, my mistake.... I misread it.

There was an additional heading in the list which switched over to reasons that do NOT qualify for the purple heart.

[bornskeptic]

45. If you read carefully

you'll notice that that is listed under
(5) Examples of injuries or wounds which clearly do not qualify for award of the Purple Heart are as follows:

[TLM]

51. You are correct..... good thing too

I was really disturbed by the prospect of the purple heart being awarded for something so silly as food poisoning.

[bigtree]

4. FreeRepublic.com "A Conservative News Forum"

This assault on the integrity of John Kerry which questions the recognition and honors he recieved for serving his country in Nixon's bloody, illegal war is beyond contempt. I challenge all responders to catagorically reject this type of garbage politics. This disgusting tactic.

[Walt Starr]

5. Um....the poster is pointing out what idiots at Freakerland are doing

to Kerry because he thinks the idiots at Freakerland are,... well... IDIOTS!

And I happen to agree with him, so much so that I believe I'll change my signature a little.

[bigtree]

7. Walt

it hurts.

[RedSox02]

8. What hurts?

Just curious, or am I out of the loop here. Was your original post directed at me?

[bigtree]

14. I went off half-cocked and I apologize

I couldn't see past the insult to John.

This stuff posted here just seems to perpetuate the crap, however.

[Walt Starr]

10. I know, the man is a war hero

and the Freaks over there pissing on his valor has convinced me that my vote has to be transferable to Kerry.

[THUNDER HANDS]

20. thank you for adding that

that was very cool of you. :)

[trumad]

35. WOW... Do you know how close Kerry came to getting killed in Nam

Anytime...and I mean anytime you get a shrapnel wound you come close to dying... It's worse than being shot...WHY...Because scrapnel is far bigger than a bullet and far more dangerous. If that shrapnel was just a foot over, Kerry would have been dead.

Anybody who diminishes a wound from shrapnel is a full proof fool!

BTW: Take a look at the pic below and wonder how many died from shrapnel?

[edzontar]

56. Those stinking Freepers should burn in Hell for this

I wish we could draft them all and drop them into the worst back streets in Baghdad without a weapon.

I HAAAATTTEEEEE them.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

57. Hard to tell which site I'm on reading this thread

:puke: