Help me with an argument with my Bush-lovin' son!

[jackster]

My son, ex-military and bright young man who unfortunately drank the koolaid and thinks Georgie just MAY end up being the best president ever to beat out Ronnie only by the narrowest of margins (!), tried to convince me this weekend that the re-enlistment rates for the Armed Services were breaking records! I know I've read that this is not the case (s is with the enlistment rates as well), but I cannot find documented proof of the facts.

Can anyone lead me to good sources of info???

THANKS!

[Darkhawk32]

1. Your son is full of it. Sorry to say, but it's true.

Re-enlistment rates are because of the backdoor draft programs they've implementing and enlistment rates have been terrible and have missed their goals by over 40%. I'll try to find some links. It's been a while since I've argued this point.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. He might be right

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-954557.php
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20050718/1a_lede18.art.htm

Or at least this is where he got that info.

[GracieM]

4. From the armytimes.com article

"Even though the Army appears likely to miss its goal of recruiting 80,000 new soldiers this year, it’s ahead of the pace needed to reach its goal of convincing 64,162 soldiers, from privates to top sergeants, to re-enlist by the end of the fiscal year on Sept. 30."

So recruitment is down. But retainment is above the goal.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. Right, but the OP was asking about retainment.

So her son is correct if that's the case.

[GracieM]

16. Sounds like it...

[MintOreoCookie]

3. Recruitment is down

Here are some articles:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/061105D.shtml

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7802712/

I went onto google and searched "Army recruitment down"

[hadrons]

5. re-enlistments are up because of stop-loss, not love of Prez Shithead ....

because of the stop-loss orders, the soldiers are stuck in the military; they can re-enlist and get a bonus or not re-enlist, be forced to stay, and not get a bonus

[Darkhawk32]

7. BINGO!!!! n/t

[jackster]

13. hadrons - could you provide resources

for the stop-loss info?

[OneTwentyoNine]

27. Yeah,my dad re-enlisted in WWII in 1943,1944,1945......

Same thing different War. But...you'll never convince that kid that Bush isn't the greatest thing since Ronnie. I wouldn't waste the time....

[Brotherjohn]

6. He's wrong (see above). And in any case, what does that have to do with...

... whether or not the war is right or wrong?

[jackster]

12. BrotherJohn that is another whole argument....

and I try to back up everything I argue with facts but couldn't find them on this particular subject.

[Brotherjohn]

18. Oh, I know it really is. But even if he "won" this argument, it would...

... only show that others in the military are likewise drinking the Koolaid, too.

[Caleb]

8. I think he's right

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-17-soldiers-re-enlist_x.htm

[teenagebambam]

10. Your boy needs a good whuppin'

[GracieM]

17. Don't all Freepers?

[punpirate]

11. Re-enlistment rates are up...

... but mostly because the Army has raised re-enlistment bonuses to some very high levels for critical MOSs, like Special Forces, Rangers and RRFs.

The desperation for re-enlistments (and the attendant large bonuses) is directly associated with two things--those people mentioned have been leaving to sign on with privatized DoD security firms because the work is similar and the money is much better, and second, because initial enlistments are way, way down, in both the Guards and the active-duty Army.

[ourbluenation]

14. What I would say to your son is...

Even if you are right, dear son, about reinlistments, which I don't think you are...so what?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

22. I suppose........

...he's trying to debunk the idea that soldiers want out of the hell over there. Then again, as Al Franken pointed out, there is so much loyalty and brotherhood amongst these young men and women, they don't want to leave their friends over there to die. That's probably the type of loyalty that sick bastard Rummy prays for every night.

[Gregorian]

15. I'm affraid it's like alcoholism. Not an easy solution.

I used to love to get drunk. Then one day I realized how nice it would be to feel healthy and energetic. Especially once I'm older. It worked with alcohol, and it worked with tobacco.

Whatever happened to your son, to make him think that a race against ronnie, to the bottom, is a good thing. He needs a dose of compassion and he needs to learn how to THINK. Don't just listen, THINK. Empathize with those who are at the end of the gun. Feel for those who are sick. Not just hooray for republican jingles.

[jackster]

21. it amazes that he came from ME!

a yellow-dog died-in-the-wool Democrat.

I blame most of it on Ronnie Raygun - he was president during my son's formative years and the hero worship was sickening even then. Also because his abusive alcoholic father was and still is a dem. Just goes to show you that not all dems are good - the man is evil to the core.

What is even more strange, is that my son is now homeless and jobless, partially due to his father, but mostly because of his inability to live in reality. I've seen a little softening of his attitude lately since he's at rock bottom, but his arrogance astounds me at times.

Because of his situation, he is working on re-enlisting himself. He lost his DDForm 214 and it's going to take several months to get a copy. As soon as he receives it, he's volunteering for Iraq.

or so he says......

[Gregorian]

23. Woah. I hear you.

That hurts. Let me tell you about me. My mom and dad are way to the left. Both 80 years old now. I'm 50. Only recently did I even discover who they are, politically. And I've only come to my senses in the last few years. I'm affraid that it's those whom we keep as our friends who can influence us the most. I can envision he spent a lot of time with the rednecks that just think repubicanism is great stuff. But to hang on to it even though he's jobless. Sure is testament to how hard we fight changing.
Isn't it a shame we can't all see the light? I think it takes endless patience. And remember how long it took me to come around.

And thank god we have DU. We can at least try to help each other. I wish you the very best. We're all in this together.


Also, like some of the other posters are saying, get the facts. Put them in front of his face. There's at least a page or two of quick and dirty facts that once someone is willing to see, they cannot deny.
PNAC- it spells out the whole need for a new Pearl Harbor.
Sibel Edmond's knowledge of what really happened on 911 (although we haven't really heard it yet. We know what she has to say.)
Squashed 911 commission
Niger yellow cake lie.
Plame. Outted because she was getting too close to the truth.
DSM
It's a hundred miles long. I don't even know where to stop.
Shuttling the Bin Ladens out of the country.

I'd also go to that website- what is it, Bushlies or some such thing. Somewhere is a complete list of lies. It's pages and pages.

[marbuc]

19. If this is the case

Ask him why the military is insisting on access to high school students for unsolicited recruiting. Ask him why the military feels compelled to deceive new recruits through "fine print." Ask him why recruiters are lowering standards for new recruits to include people of dubious character. As him why recruiters are coaching this new pool of recruits to lie in order to gain eligibility. Ask him why Bush is deploying guard and reserves at the expense of stateside duties they enlisted to perform?

I guess it's possible that recruitment is "breaking records," but it's a dubious accomplishment if recruiters have to lie, cheat, manipulate, and exploit to achieve it.

[fooj]

20. Put a copy of the DSM in front of him.

Ask him what kind of National Security Threat he thinks Cindy Sheehan poses. Ask him why he hasn't responded to dozens of letters from Congress and over half million people re: DSM. Ask him why they PURPOSEFULLY allowed Bin Laden to escape. Ask him why he cannot appear in front of real Americans at a REAL TOWN HALL MEETING. Ask him why they bus people in for all of his appearances. Ask him why his daughters are not serving in Iraq. Ask him what he thinks about his administration outting a CIA agent and completely destroying a WMD 10 year program! Ask him why HIS president feels that he doesn't need to be accountable FOR ANYTHING! Is there ONE THING this administration has taken responsibility for? Everything is someone elses fault or the questions are completely ignored. The list goes on and on...

Peace.

[rhett o rick]

29. No disrespect intended, but people with this attitude don't want the facts

they don't want to think about the poor, the jobless, the starving, seniors not affording prescriptions, and on and on. It is just to hard to deal with those issues. It is much easier to think everything can be solved by arresting people, killing people, hating people. This is why the Reich preaches hate. Hitler did the same. When things get rough, tell everyone that it is somebodies fault, like the jews, or muslims or gays or non-Christians. They think if you can go beat up somebody, life will be better. After 9/11 george needed someone to beat up. He choose Iraq.

[City Lights]

24. This must be a new RW talking point.

My uncle's nephew through marriage made the same claim in an email over the weekend.

Here's one article I found:

Army Faces Looming Recruiting Crisis
United Press International
June 3, 2005

WASHINGTON - Embroiled in scandal and facing rising death tolls in Iraq, U.S. Army recruiters are facing serious challenges as they attempt to reach their goal of 80,000 new recruits by October.

"What we have is a recruiting problem," said Charles Pena, director of defense policy studies at the Cato Institute. "The question is whether or not it becomes a recruiting crisis."

Defense Department figures at the end of April showed that 35,926 recruits had signed up this fiscal year, which began last Oct. 1. This gives recruiters four months to sign up another 44,000 to meet their goal. Even worse is the number of reserves. Statistics show that 7,283 reserves have signed up. The goal is for 22,175 by the end of the year.

Steadily rising U.S. casualties in Iraq, the recent allegations of prisoner mistreatment at Guantanamo Bay and the permanent stain of Abu Ghraib have all taken their toll on recruitment drives. And young men and women are not exactly banging down recruiting-station doors to join the army.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_recruiting_060305,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl

[proud patriot]

25. I believe re-enlistment is up due to Big Bonuses offered

Recruitment of NEW recruits has been down 5 months in a row
for all branches though .

[tsuki]

26. I listened to Thom Hartman this morning. Good interview with the author

of "October Surprise," Barbara Honegger. She cited all these documents and facts, and some idiot Freeper called in and said that he disagreed with everything she was saying. It was all bull. Then, he went on to explain what he "thought" happened and how he "thought" it happened. Anti-intellectual is not the term for a Freeper. Stupid doesn't quite fit either. I don't know what these people are. Perhaps the antidote to "Intelligent Design?"

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. I am so sorry your son drank the kool-aid. Glad he is EX military though

so you don't have that to worry over as well. :hug:

[DCal]

30. Reutuers Aug 10: Army poised to miss 2005 recruiting goal

This article indicates that the army is 11% behind its recruting goal for fiscal 2005, with just two months to go:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050810/ts_nm/iraq_usa_recruiting_dc