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Thank you Clark, Dean, Kucinich, for never caving.

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Loren645 Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 10:34 PM
Original message
Thank you Clark, Dean, Kucinich, for never caving.
For being the true voices of a true opposition party, on
the eve of the NH primary and, well beyond.

Thank you sir.
Thank you sir.
Thank you sir.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree with Clark and DK
Dean is a Caveman.

Caving is a way of political life for him, it seems.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Great job spoiling a kudos....
This has become commonplace, and the candidate occasionally suffers.



Just a question: What exactly possessed you to turn a goodwill statement from another campaign into partisan bullshit?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Yup.
Dena caved virtually everytine a large corporation threatened to move jobs. or sue the state because it didnt like legislation.

The most interesting one was when Dean supported legislation requiring that dairies and milk producers indicate on the labels of dairy products whether the cows were given all sorts of boving growth hormones and milk producing hormones, that are considered a bit unsdafe for human consupmtion but which pretty much exhausted the cows to death. The law itself was very weak, but Dean caved after on meeting with the corporation:

"Monsanto's Legal Thuuggery"

by Michael Colby

The Monsanto Corporation's legal eagles have been busier than ever this year, firing off one legal threat after another to journalists, book publishers, and even an entire state. Monsanto, the multi-billion-dollar agribusiness giant that has brought the world products such as Agent Orange and synthetic bovine growth hormone (rBGH), revels in the perverted US legal system that has slowly conferred constitutional rights to the fictions known as corporations. This is why Monsanto can now make legal claims regarding the "defamation" of its products, a legal concept originally intended only for individuals.

Monsanto's legal team began 1998 by taking on the State of Vermont and its attempts to pass a very weak rBGH law that merely required Monsanto to register with the state and make its client list available to state authorities so "rBGH-free" claims could be verified. The company responded by publicly threatening to sue the state and stop selling its products in Vermont if the bill passed. Governor Howard Dean, feeling the lobbying heat from Monsanto and its rBGH-addicted farmers in Vermont, came to Monsanto's defense and pulled the plug on the measure by threatening a veto. The legislature then went on to further soften an already spineless bill by removing the section that required the drug manufacturer's client list. Eventually, after yet another legal threat and a "closed-door" meeting with Governor Dean, Monsanto backed off and let the near-meaningless legislation go into effect.

http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/24/monsanto.html

Monsanto's Intimidation Tactics Continue

Headline: Monsanto Unit Challenges Vt. Cow Hormone Licensing Bil Wire Service: DJ (Dow Jones)

Date: Wed, Jan 14, 1998

MONTPELIER, Vt. (AP)--Monsanto Co.'s (MTC) Protiva unit said it will stop selling the artificial bovine hormone recombinant Bovine Somatrotropin, or rBST, in Vermont if a bill requiring that it be licensed passes the Legislature.

In a Jan. 7 letter to members of the Vermont dairy industry and to Gov. Howard Dean and Agriculture Commissioner Leon Graves, Protiva said forcing licensure would "severely disrupt previously private business activity; and it would do so in the absence of any legitimate state interest sufficient to justify the intrusion into your privacy."

The company said if the measure were passed into law, it would challenge it in court and stop selling its products in Vermont. "Unfortunately, while this challenge was under way, it would be impossible for us to distribute rBST in Vermont and we would be forced to leave the market," said the letter from Cheryl Morley, the president of Protiva.

The bill in question calls for any supplier of rBST who sells or distributes the artificial hormone to be licensed by the agriculture commissioner. Suppliers would be required to maintain records of purchasers' names and other information. And the licensing provision establishes a method of verifying producers' claims that they did not use rBST in the making of milk or dairy products offered for sale in Vermont.

With that provision, the state can keep track of who is using rBST and who is not, said Rep. Jenny Nelson

http://www.organicconsumers.org/rBGH/MonIntim.html


• In 1994, Monsanto filed suit in Iowa to block an Iowa dairy co-operative from advertising that their company “ not knowingly accept milk from BST-treated cows.” A milk and ice cream company in Texas was also sued for similarly labelling its products.
• In 1998, Monsanto sent a letter to policy-makers in Virginia threatening to sue the state if a proposed voluntary BST labelling bill became law. Governor Howard Dean reversed his earlier support for the bill and instead threatened to veto it.

http://www.tv.cbc.ca/newsinreview/mar99/milk/other.htm


Dean also caved and vetoed legislation for the state of Vermont that was designed to reduce the price of pharmaceuticals that the state payed for through its various programs like VSCRIPT. The law simply required that the drug companies (fondly known as "Big Pill" to Vermonters")

Dean was publically criticized for this because, just days before vetoing the legislation, he took a 6000 dollar campaign coontrivution for his next run for governor, and then more money after he vetoed it:

MARCELLA LANDELL, et al., Plaintiffs, NEIL RANDALL, et al., Plaintiffs, and VERMONT REPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE, Plaintiff v. WILLIAM H. SORRELL, et al., Defendants, and VERMONT PUBLIC INTEREST RESEARCH GROUP, et al., Defendant-Intervenors

...Reports also described allegations that Governor Dean vetoed a pharmacy bill after collecting $ 6,000 in campaign contributions from drug companies...

...Bryan Pfeiffer, Dean Angry About Pharmacy Veto Criticism, News Story, Rutland Herald, June 16, 1994...

http://www.brookingsinstitution.org/dybdocroot/gs/cf/headlines/cases/LandellvSorrell.DOC

The history of the attempt to pass this legislation to keep drug companies from asserting political control through money cna be found at:

Challenging Pharmaceutical Industry Political Power in Maine and Vermont Ramón Castellblanch San Francisco State University

Vermont 2000 At the beginning of the 2000 legislative session, Senator Rivers, Vermont Senate President pro tempore Peter Shumlin (D-Putney), and eight other state senators introduced a new bill related to drug prices, S 300. The bill included provisions to lower drug prices, such as helping people to purchase drugs in Canada; it also provided for direct regulation of drug prices. S 300 started out without strong independent pharmacist opposition. It did so despite special concerns that they had about price caps. Part of the income that pharmacists earn derives from high markups on drugs sold to people without any discount arrangements. Price controls would reduce pharmacists' incomes to the extent that they would not allow them these high markups. Pharmacists were told by price control proponents that their net revenue would not be cut by S 300. Proponents asserted that there would be volume increases in drug store sales resulting from the plan that would offset the losses that pharmacists would take on lost markups. Without vigorous arguments to the contrary, some pharmacists were inclined to accept this logic....

After it was clear that S 300 was blocked, Governor Dean announced that he would not veto it. His "support" was too late. Had he acted earlier in the legislative session, he could have used legislative items sought by the blue dogs in bargaining with them on the prescription drug price bill. By the time the governor indicated his support, there was little left with which to bargain. His support also came too late for the independent pharmacists. Had his support come earlier, he might have helped persuade independent pharmacy owners that the bill would not reduce their revenues


http://www.metrostate.edu/cgi-bin/troxy/lproxy.cgi/URL-www.press.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_health_politics_policy_and_law/v028/28.1castellblanch.html


Dean spent over six years either vetoing, or finding more subtle political means to block legislation that the drug companies vehemently opposed, yet would have resulted in large savings for the state, as well as lower the cost of drugs to citizens, without harming the earnings of small drug stores and chains.

In the end, when Dean decuded he was going to again try to cut social programs in the state of Vermont to balance the budget in his last year as Governor, the senate decided to oppose his budget cuts, and even one of Deans closest associates for all the time he was Governor opposed him:

Senate adds money to budget, angers Dean
May 9, 2002

By ROSS SNEYD The Associated Press


MONTPELIER — Senators passed a 2003 state budget Wednesday that the governor made clear he would veto if it ever reached his desk...


Even the governor’s closest allies in the Senate ignored him. Sen. Nancy Chard, D-Windham, recommended restoring $440,000 to one of the pharmaceutical assistance programs and the Senate voted 22-7 to go along with her.

“I’ve become convinced that we have a philosophical difference between the governor, the Republican House and this Senate,” said Senate President Pro Tempore Peter Shumlin, D-Windham.

“The governor and the Republican House want to balance this budget on the backs of our most vulnerable Vermonters. The Senate wants to balance this budget on the backs of the pharmaceutical companies who are charging too much for drugs.”

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/46513.html


Well before John Kerry spoke of Deans plans to repeal the middle class tax cuts of George Bush, Vermont Democrats were familiar with Dean's method of balancing budgets, on the backs of the most vulnerable.


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DianeG5385 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Shame on you!
Your candidate should be able to make it on his own merits not by slamming and insulting his fellow democrats. Do you speak for Kerry? Have you been making late night phone calls?
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Abigail147 Donating Member (117 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Kerry supporters are such sweet talkers
Dean supporters like a man with a little fire even when the cameras are off.
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. you make kerry look bad when you post shit like that
LC, chill out or just keep it to yourself.

sheeesh!
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lastknowngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
2. getting damn hard to find some one who will
take a clear stand and actually answer a question ain't it.
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Loren645 Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Hell, it's damn hard to find someone who will *ask* a question
Let alone answer it.
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lovedems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. They are all simply mahvelous!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Dean's Biden-Lugar position was antiwar? Since when?
I guess you have no consideration for the lawmaker who exposed more Republican government corruption than anyone alive today.

Yep...Kerry deserves NOTHING for exposing BCCI and IranContra.

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Victor Wong Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. It's Green/leftwingers, get over it.
They will NEVER like Kerry, or Edwards, or Clark (until recently miraculously). They only like DEAN, who they have adopted. The extreme leftwing, green element of this party does NOT reflect the majority opinion.
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Damned Green\Leftwingers !!! --- They All Just Wanna Save The World...
while Centrists just want to save their asses, LOL!!!

:evilgrin:
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Now THAT'S FUNNY!
Dean is somehow "Green"? Wow, I bet that's not only news to Dean, but to his supporters too!

Please, Howard Dean is no "greener" than Kerry or Clark-- as a matter of fact, even Liebermann is probably "greener" than him.

If you look at their platforms, there's very little difference between Dean, Clark or Edwards. They're all centrist Democrats who support the status quo, but just not as much as the Bushistas.

Only Sharpton and Kucinich would come close to representing the "extreme leftwing, green element" of the Democratic party-- and strangely enough, they're the ones that hold the same "classic" views that made this party what is was before Nixon.

Hell, if Nixon ran today on his 1972 platform, he'd be a moderate Democrat (protect the environment, end the unpopular war, mandatory living wage, healthcare reform, etc.)
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Hoppin_Mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Some of us like Kucinich too - Down with repug pandering cenrtists ! -nt-
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Abigail147 Donating Member (117 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. That's pretty negative talk, isn't it?
We probably agree on many things except our choice for a candidate. Does that make us bad?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. What opposition to the war in Iraq:
Edited on Mon Jan-26-04 11:26 PM by Nicholas_J
Face the Nations 9/29/2002

DEAN: Sure, I think the Democrats have pushed him into that position and the Congress, and I think that's a good thing. And I think he is trying to do that. We still get these bellicose statements.

Look, it's very simple. Here's what we ought to have done. We should have gone to the U.N. Security Council. We should have asked for a resolution to allow the inspectors back in with no pre-conditions. And then we should have given them a deadline saying "If you don't do this, say, within 60 days, we will reserve our right as Americans to defend ourselves and we will go into Iraq."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/30/ftn/printable523726.shtml

Salon.com February 20, 2003

"As I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

http://www.howardsmusings.com/2003/02/20/salon_on_the_campaign_trail_with_the_unbush.html

If you examine both of Deans statements, he is stating that his stance would be to attack Iraq, not because there was evidence of WMD's and that Saddam would not get rid of them But simply if the U.N. will not agree to enforce its own resolutions, and gives a minimum of 30 days, and no more than 60 days from going to the U.N. to do this.

This by Dean's time table, if he went to the U.N. the same time that Bush did, late November 2002, he would have attacked Iraq by the end of January 2003 if the U.N. did not enforce its own resolutions regarding which it placed upon Iraq at the end of the Gulf War.

Once the War started, Dean became "The only candidate who stood up to George Bush on Iraq"

From these quotes this is very far from the truth.

Other problems with Dean's supposed antiwar stance is that he is supposed to have not been fooled by Bush's claims that Iraq posed a threat to the U.S.

Exactly how anti-war was Howard Dean?
Posted December 11, 2003 02:17 PM


Viewing Saddam Hussein as a threat

On the September 29, 2002, episode of Face the Nation, Dean seemed to believe, wholeheartedly, that Saddam Hussein was a threat that needed to be dealt with.

While questioning the immediacy of the danger Hussein posed, Dean nevertheless said, "There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies."

Then, in February 2003, Dean agreed with Bush that the Iraqi threat was real; he simply disagreed with Bush as to how the U.S. should go about dealing with that threat.

"I agree with President Bush -- he has said that Saddam Hussein is evil. And he is," Dean said. " is a vicious dictator and a documented deceiver. He has invaded his neighbors, used chemical arms, and failed to account for all the chemical and biological weapons he had before the Gulf War. He has murdered dissidents, and refused to comply with his obligations under U.N. Security Council Resolutions. And he has tried to build a nuclear bomb. Anyone who believes in the importance of limiting the spread of weapons of mass killing, the value of democracy, and the centrality of human rights must agree that Saddam Hussein is a menace. The world would be a better place if he were in a different place other than the seat of power in Baghdad or any other country. So I want to be clear. Saddam Hussein must disarm. This is not a debate; it is a given."

Dean, who now argues that he saw through Bush's charade from the beginning, said at the time, "I don't think he really has to prove anything. I think that most Americans, including myself, will take the president's word for it."

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/000940.html

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Abigail147 Donating Member (117 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Kerry is such a manly man and righteous.
I saw him skating and he looked good. He was standing straight up like the backbone insert was working real well.
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morgan2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. switch dean with lieberman in that list
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dae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. I add my thanks to yours.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
11. Thanks
Principles over politics. Truth over convenience.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hear, hear!
They've taken some hits, but they have shown political courage.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yes!
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'd vote for any of them.
All three are truly great people. Having courage is really something extraordinary nowadays.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
23. Wow! You Are My Kind of Democrat, Loren645!
Thank you for saying what I feel!
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AnnitaR Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
25. I totally agree!
I'm a Clark supporter first, but Dean impressed the hell out of me today. He is solidly in my #2 spot.

I respect these three men for their stance against the Iraq war. It will only be if; god forbid, those three men are all out of the race that I will support Kerry or Edwards!
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