I will not give another cent to the Democratic Party until they get tough

[mtnsnake]

I've had it. It is so frustrating watching our side get slapped around day after day, year after year, by the right wing hate mongers and seeing our Democratic leaders sit there and take it passively like scared little babies. It's bad enough that our asses are still smarting from the election, yet we're still getting spanked around as we speak.

Case in point: Someone on DU just pointed out how the right wing nasties are going to start a TV smear campaign against Cindy with negative commercials such as the one set to air next week on CNN & other networks saying "You don't speak for us, Cindy."

Well, why is it that our gutless leaders never give it back to them with similar negative TV exposure...or better yet, why don't they take the offensive for once and give it to them BEFORE they give it to us? Why is it that we've let people like Rush Limbaugh off the hook for so many years without some similar TV commercial saying, "You don't speak for us, Rush."? Why do we never do a goddamn thing that lets them know that we will never be pushed around again?

I'm sick of always seeing our side turn the other cheek....take the high road....or take no road at all. Not until they give me some incentive will I consider donating to them again. Not until they show some spine will they get another penny from me. All these blah-blah emails that I get from the Party every other day just don't cut it anymore.

If someone ever did to me or my family what the right wingers do to our Democratic leaders, I'd be all over them like flies on shit...only I'd give it back to them ten times over.

:mad:

[Medical Speaking]

1. I Did

Have not given them any money in a long time. You are right they need to get a spine.

[expatriot]

2. The RNC is not funding the hit pieces.

Of course our leadership needs more of a spine but that is irrelevant to this issue. We have Moveon and other organizations that put on our own issue ads. I don't see how you can blame the DNC for this.

on edit: the fact that RW interest groups are spending money and a whole lot of energy on smearing and attacking Cindy - mother of a fallen soldier - is a great moral victory for us.

[mtnsnake]

5. When's the last time you heard a Dem say something nasty on TV

about the other side on a consistent basis? Repugs do it all the time to us.

I'm not just talking TV commercials, I'm talking about our leadership in general.

[expatriot]

10. Do you have an specific examples in mind?

Of things elected Republicans say on a consistent basis that you'd like us to say in the same spirit to them?

[madfloridian]

23. Good lord, have you never heard our chairman on TV?

You know the one you are saying to withhold funds from because he is not talking out?

This is twisted thinking. You are advising withholding money from the one who is trying to get the party to fight because you say the party does not fight.

:crazy: :crazy:

[howmad1]

152. I've seen a few examples........

......then they turn around and apologize.

[EVDebs]

157. Disney/ABC is funding Melanie Morgan ! RNC doesn't need to

Operation Mockingbird is taking care of the 'hit pieces'.

[niallmac]

3. I guess money has gutted the party

I keep thinking of what kind of revolution it would take to bring back the democratic party of old. I think DU contains the seed of things to come in that regard. i share your rage about it all. Noon to 5pm is my non rage time. But I do hear ya!

[expatriot]

6. When was this "Democratic Party of old" you speak of?

[Telly Savalas]

34. Back in the days of Mike "The Hitman" Dukakis

and Walter "The Animal" Mondale.

[expatriot]

38. LOL... and before that, Strom "Mr. Progressive" Thurman

and Lyndon "Kill a Gook for God" B. Johnson

[niallmac]

95. No...Older...

Truman spoke his mind and didn't sell out to money. Roosevelt fought damn hard for the working stiff. Need I say more?

[flpoljunkie]

4. Agreed! Vote like a Democrats or do not come asking me for money!

[jrthin]

7. I'm with you.

I have tossed out all envelopes or letters begging for money. Right now, many and/or most dems just don't speak to or represent my interest.

[LisaM]

8. Have you called your representatives?

I can respect not giving money to the party, but at least consider individual candidates who might be more progressive. In the meantime, call your reps and let them know that you stand with Cindy and there are plenty of people who do.

[mtnsnake]

9. I've tried some contacting, yes. I even politely emailed them & never got

a response. Someone at DU once gave a great email address where you can send suggestions in the Party. Thing is...they don't acknowledge anything. I've had others tell me they don't get answers either.

[LisaM]

14. Oh it's maddening - they don't even have "war" on their list of issues

I just call my representatives and yell at them. I called Harry Reid's office the other day, too (they were astoundingly nice to me) to tell them to fight John Roberts' nomination.

[expatriot]

18. The Party is not a monolithic thing, it's made up of people....

of individuals... if you think the rank and file Democrats have lost control of the party I would have to disagree. We put in Dean and the politicians know that they are beholden to us at the primaries and to the general electorate in the generals. If you want to compare the DNC and the RNC, the difference is that the RNC runs on a very centralized power structure whereas the DNC can be walking in a hundred different directions at once because they have many, less-centralized power centers that constantly compete for influence over the party. So to blame the "Party" for not having backbone is misguided in my opinion. There is no one authority that directs the Party.

[howmad1]

153. Bull Crap

I attended the 2004 Democratic Convention. It was absolutely the most frustrating experience in my life. Not a single bad word about rethuglicans under penalty of getting thrown out. Al Sharpton had the delegates on their feet with his speech. The best Kerry could do was "report for duty". A very close acquaintance was going to give a speech on the night of Kerry's nomination. The difference between the speech he submitted to the DNC and the actual speech given back to him for delivery was incredible. Every negative remark about rethuglicans redacted! I blame the party for that disastrous convention. Not a lick of negativism but three days of nice-nice bullshit. I'm glad the dems support stem cell research. It might help them grow a backbone. Not a penny from me until that happens.

[pinklefoot]

177. It's much easier to kill it all......

....than to save it all. Republicans are focused people. They might act like the most incredible morons in front of the news, the world, the people, but behind them are brilliant and ruthless advisors. I wish the democrats got Carl Rove somehow. With him we'd would have (and would have had) a clear and effective party and campaign. Democrats are trying to stop everything. We want the best dream in the world. Republicans want the world delivered on a silver spoon. It's not that hard to destroy everything when you as stupid as these guys.

To change, we need people to do what we're doing, getting very angry at our world getting burned in front of our eyes.

[Le Taz Hot]

180. Now, now, you can't possibly say they're...

not doing anything.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2017637

Read it and weap. Been there, done that, my friend and I know EXACTLY what you're talking about.

LTH

[ChiciB1]

151. I Already Called Katherine Harris...

I doubt she enjoyed the call!!

[SujiwanKenobee]

11. Interesting comment re this on WPs Live Discusson Q&A transcript:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2005/08/17/DI2005081701538.html

Sheehan and the Antiwar Movement
Dana Millbank

Stamford, Conn.: Do Bush's foes (read: the Democrats) even have an interest in Sheehan? With no major Democratic leader (outside of Dean) coming out openly against the war, it appears that few in the Democratic leadership have common cause with Sheehan. If anything, she would further highlight failure of the Democratic leadership to take a coherent stand on the war.

Dana Milbank: Just as the villifying of Sheehan has been left to surrogates, so has the praise, for the most part. I was struck by a press release sent out by the National Jewish Democratic Coalition pedaling fast to distance Democrats from Sheehan, suggesting it was "laughable" to tie her views to those of Democratic leaders.

[mtnsnake]

15. Thank you. That is the perfect example of how our "leaders" respond

[expatriot]

22. Just like the transcript says... Democrats do not have a coherent

position on how to clean up Bush's Iraq mess. This is because Democrats as the nation as a whole have very different opinions as to what should be done. Do you expect a Democratic leader who does not support the idea of the U.S. pulling out to say that he does support pulling out now?

Most of this country has come to the realization that the war was a mistake, far fewer believe we should pull out now. If you are unwilling to negotiate with other views on how to handle the strategy in Iraq, then I can understand your unwillingness to support the Democratic Party.

[Talismom]

107. John Conyers and Maxine Waters are notable exceptions who have

been very outspoken and supportive of her. I'd certainly like to hear my senators, Schumer and Clinton speak out a little!

[ClassWarrior]

12. Guess it's time for another round of "Trash Our Own."

~yawn~

NGU.

[madfloridian]

13. Oh, wait a minute here.

Our really big main fighter, the chair of the party, is asking for donations to build the party.

Ok, so here at DU this guy gets blasted for not getting money out to the state parties fast enough for the paid organizers. It's been a whole 6 months since he started trying to change the financial structure of the party....wow, 6 months. They are up to 25 states now.

SO he gets blasted for not getting money out quickly enuogh while others are blasting for not standing up for us. So those folks are not going to give to the party because the party is not standing up for us....yet he is one of the ones who is.

So be sure to withhold payments until all the others start speaking up for us, who know like Hillary and Joe L. etc. Meanwhile their corporate wing of the party is flush with money while we withhold payment.

Way to go, Dems.

[mtnsnake]

16. It doesn't cost a penny for a Dem leader to take the mike on national TV

and give it to the other side.

[madfloridian]

17. But you are withholding support from the main one who does that.

Please explain that to me. This is so silly to do this here.

[expatriot]

20. agree one hundred per cent.

I don't understand this at all.

[mtnsnake]

21. So I guess you're satisfied w/the high road & never reacting to us getting

slapped around the school yard.

I guess it didn't bother you as much to sit there day after day during the election waiting for someone people to stand up to the SBVT liars with some creative rhetoric of our own.

When they start getting tough for once in their lives, the money will start flowing as if the flood gates were just opened.

[madfloridian]

26. Donations went up over 50% because Dean spoke out.

SO....here you come, saying to withhold money because the Democrats don't fight back.

That is what the DNC is trying to change now. So you come here to advocate against them. Very suspicious.

:eyes: :eyes:

[mtnsnake]

37. Whoa, I never said or advocated that.

I said I would not donate again until they got tough. "I" means me, period, not you. I am not advocating for you or anyone else to do the same. The only message I'm trying to send is that I'd like our party to grow some spine because if they don't we're sunk as usual.

[madfloridian]

48. What the hell kind of spine do you want?

Have you ever heard him speak out? I don't think so.

[mtnsnake]

50. You need some lessons in reading comprehension. This is not about

Howard Dean, so enough with all the dramatics. I like Howard.

It's about how I feel about most of the leaders in our party IN GENERAL not having spine to stand up and take the offensive. I'M TALKING ABOUT CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS, NOT HOWARD DEAN IN PARTICULAR.

[LittleClarkie]

88. Which Congressmen and Senators

can you specify?

Who is the leadership?

And, um, gee, Dean's sorta the Chairman and all. Any talk about Dem leadership has to include him.

Somehow I don't think he'd appreciate that right in the middle of his 50 state strategy, there are folks saying they're not gonna help out.

There goes his strategy. Poor guy. Sad really.

You're making Dean sad. Do you really wanna do that?

Poor guy.

(at least half ;))

[madfloridian]

101. Lots of stuff in that message.....

There is an attempt to be cute, there is anger, and there is pettiness. Bottom line is that withholding money will hurt the program to build the DNC in that way. Another bottom line is that we all know many are withholding for various reasons.

[LittleClarkie]

104. That's what I'm saying

There is a 50 state strategy that needs funding. If folks decide to set him up for failure, then I don't want to hear it when he does do that for lack of funding.

But I literally do want people to define exactly what they're talking about, and put a point on that broad brush their using.

[expatriot]

30. No I am not satisfied with being slapped around....

And I differ with INDIVIDUAL politicans and leaders who are a bit spineless, etc. I know that there are many, many, many factors behind this phenomona and to blame the "Party" for these ills and try and agitate discouragement and dissent with the party apparatus for these hard times is completely misguided.

I am not going to defect from Lincoln's Army because I take issue with his top general's strategy. There is a war for the soul of this nation just as dark and ominous as that war was and I will not bite my tongue when I hear such counter-productive rumblings.

Advocate POSITIVE actions to keep the homefires of our party lit, not negative ones.

[mrgorth]

179. He's also getting blasted for trying to bring pro-life dems into the mix

:spank:

[AuntPatsy]

19. This is getting old, the problem is NOT the dems as a whole

it is of course the GOP stranglehold on the televised media outlets that do NOTHING to aid the messages that MANY dem leaders are dilligently attempting to impart to all America, the fact that many Americans are busy surving by working longer and longer hours with little or no spare time to hear the news and rely on the fifteen or thirty minutes of live coverage offered by so called journalistic televised news spots, and learn nothing more than how Aruba is still heraled as the top news spots or like today where there has been nothing but hours of BTK blurbs, what more do you expect from them?

IT IS people like YOU and I and every other valued American citizen who need to ensure our neighbors and fellow country man learn about what is also going on behind closed doors...

How come I have yet to see ONE news mongrel say EVEN one word about PLAME or the facts that highly suggest that our nations highest officers are closely alligned to such criminal activities?


Use your money than to make your own adds in newspapers DEMANDING answers to these highly questionable activities that continualy are being IGNORED by those that claim fair and balanced reporting on our nations most important issues....


Quit blaming the Democratic party as a whole for the failures of these criminal issues NOT being addressed or investigated as they obviously should be, put the blame where it trully lies....

AND our side Does NOT continue to turn the other cheek my friend, thier crys of outrage just keep getting ignored by the majority of main stream media outlets or the messenger screaming outrage at the continued misuse of power these days begets nothing more than a vast conspiracy by right winged radicals to destroy the speakers character as is being done to CINDY who is surely taking a beating and yet is NOT giving up..she should be your inspiration, do NOT add to those that like nothing more than to see this inner fighting become front and center instead of having to face the real issues at hand...

[mtnsnake]

25. No, what's getting old is blaming the MSM for everything when they're only

partially to blame. Cindy is living proof that the MSM will cover a story if someone is gutsy enough like she is to stand up and speak the truth and use the L word concering Bush. None of our leaders have had the guts to do what she did, or MSM would cover it.

[madfloridian]

27. Do you even know which Dems speak out and which don't?

I am serious...do you even know?

[AuntPatsy]

31. Youve got to be kidding? All the attention she is getting through

the major live media outlets is countering her actions with continued digs at her private life and her associates that stand beside her in Crawford? Everything I have seen in the last few days are NOT in all honesty aiding her efforts, they are walking a fine line in thier obvious attempt to make her look like nothing more than a hysterical greiving mother gaining momentum through radical organizations....

Perhaps not all the local live media outlets but I DO and WILL continue to blame the MAJOR nation wide media outlets for this party's inability to move more than an inch at a time...

You want gutsy? Where have you been? I assume you view Conyers, Boxers and other voices as lacking of having the gutts to call a spade a spade?

Your belittleing their efforts and others when you fail to acknowledge their hard work and dedication to the people in this country...

[mtnsnake]

52. I love Conyers and Boxer, but they're a tiny portion of our congressmen

and it's simply not enough. Maybe you're satisfied with our Dem leaders as a whole. Good for you.

[AuntPatsy]

54. Hmmm you only mention the two that I have? Do you NOT

know any others? Interesting.

[mtnsnake]

65. Oh jesus h crist, I metioned those 2 because they were the only ones

that YOU mentioned!!@X%!##!

I was agreeing with you on them!

[AuntPatsy]

70. Then you admit that there are DEMS doing something?

why are you getting so upset, my questioning you shouldn't be so hard for you to take since you were passionate enough to make a thread about no more giving to the dems until they show spine or gutts....

[mtnsnake]

75. Of course I think there are Dems "doing something"

That doesn't mean that I'm satisfied with how tough our party as a whole is.

[AuntPatsy]

79. I honestly understand where your coming from with that particular

statement, but what I don't understand is why your not looking at the whole picture here. Can you deny that after nine one one, passionate responses overode clear thinkers to the point where so many were left immobilized to a somewhat one track mind..

Revenge, patriotism, unable to see beyond the fear of such happening again, blaming an entire population of a certain group of people which left little room for listening to logic..

It's been a crazy time, thankfully, the stranglehold of using emotional fears are fast becoming a thing of the past, in many ways it pretty much put chains on many leaders in this party from doing anything remotely not in sinc with the majority of American's wishes or what they were told to wish for from the hundreds of droning robotic news feeds that were forced on the populace as a whole...


The balance of power was destroyed right before our very eyes, our congressman, senators etc were virtually ridiculed, and ignored and we the people didn't have enough of a voice to cry foul obviously, well we do now thanks to many that have stood in definace against incredible odds from those who would stop at nothing to destroy any and all voices who spoke against what was obviously nothing short of criminal...


A party can only be as strong as it's base allows, let them know your anger, your disagreeing with how one speaks for you, but at this point in time, its much more productive to being more general with your complaints, yell at those who disturb you, stand dilligently behind those that speak the words you agree with, but in any case, do NOT blame the whole of this party....

The chains have been loosened than God, it is up to you and I and all America to ensure they are cut away all together so that one can speak exactly what he or she chooses to speak without fear of retribution...

[Dr Fate]

24. Many DEM "leaders" wish she would go away.

She is forcing them to say "yay" or "nay" as opposed to their usual ambiguity on the war that is supposed to impress swing-voters.

[ClassWarrior]

28. Proof?

Names? Links? Many?

NGU.

[Dr Fate]

102. It's just like the DSM that they cannot seem to talk about.

And it's just like their failure to point out all the lies Bush told in the days leading up to the war- plenty of us constantly begged them to tell the truth- and many DEMs are still running from it.

When was the last time a Top Democrat on TV brought up the DSM, or asked "Who forged the Nigerian documents, and why?" Which DEM is on TV asking where all the missing money is- or backing up the release of the Prison photos?

I dont have a link- but my impression from their silence is that they would rather these controversial issues go away- they are "too hot."

I wonder if Hillary counts Sheehan as a "Naysayer?"

I stand by my statement- if you need links and names of DEMs who have given Bush scandals countless free passes, who refuse to speak up on Bush lies and crimes like Cindy and normal people do, and who have supported the war, then you have not been paying attention.

[ClassWarrior]

108. Being sloppy again with your phrasing Doc? That's not ANYTHING like...

...what you originally posted. You specifically said, "Many DEM "leaders" wish she would go away."

How do you know what "many" "wish" unless you have as "many" links to specific quotes. And if that's not what you meant, why did you say it?

NGU.

[Dr Fate]

113. Splitting hairs over vocabulary on DU wont change my perception.

Or compell me to open my check book.

And it's not just my perception that "many" DEMs "wish" that "hot" issues would go away.

What will change my perception is to see top Democrats, front and center, on TV asking the same blunt questions that Cindy, DUers and that nice lady behind me in the grocerey line asks everyday.

Kerry, Kennedy, Byrd and others have said they support Cindy's right to speak and want Bush to meet with her-I applaud that, but it has not compelled me to pull out the check book just yet.

I stand by my statement- it's an opinion based on perception. I think I'm right.

The fact that "many" DEMs seem to refuse to ask the same questions that Cindy & the base asks- or even mention these "hot" issues- makes me think they wish we would all would all just keep quiet and let them stick to vanilla, warm & fuzzy issues. And it's not just me who gets this impression.

You still need links for DEMs who refuse to hammer home the issues that Sheehan talks about? You want me to prove a negative.

You are a great debater- but not great enough to change my perception that DEMs are ignoring the "hot" issues- that is up to DEMs with media access.

In sum, I've not budged an inch or changed anything I said- but accusing me of doing so is a great debate tactic- I'll give ya that.

[LittleClarkie]

139. No but it might put a point on the broad brush some are using

Anger unfocussed is counterproductive. A generalized shaking of the fist at "them" doesn't give us a direction to go in.

Some of "them" are fighting. Some of "them" are not. I'm not throwing out the party with the bathwater, if you know what I mean.

[Dr Fate]

142. The disgruntled DEMs are speaking of the "star", "top" Democrats.

It's up to them to start speaking up on the issues we care about it- I've written letters, begged & begged and gotten involved on the local level.

I hope they will listen someday.

Your point is well taken- that is why I always say somthing like "top" DEMs or "Dems with media access."

I assumed most folks know the Congressional Black Caucus, Kusinich, etc and Air America hosts are asking the questions we want to hear asked.

Now we need to get Kerry, Dean, Hilary, etc on TV asking "Who forged the Nigerian Documents- and WHY?"

"Why does the corrupt GOP congress REFUSE to investigate Rove or the DSM- what are they hiding?"

"Bush needs to go under oath and answer some questions- a lot of Americans dont believe him anymore."

If the "top" DEMs were doing this, you and I would not be arguing on a thread such as this.

[expatriot]

36. They don't wish she'd go away, they just aren't ready to say

"I support a pullout of American troops from Iraq."

Is that so hard to understand?

[Dr Fate]

99. Then they should send their relatives over there- cuz I aint going.

Is that so hard to understand?

[madfloridian]

29. This seems so wrong to see at a forum with Democratic in its name.

It is like organizing to withhold funds. It is sort of like odd, you know.

[AuntPatsy]

33. I firmly agree with you.

[expatriot]

41. I so 200% agree with you.

gotta go now or gonna be late for work. **lazy no good liberal**

[Imagevision]

94. I so 300% agree with you - Gotta fight fire with a flame thrower

This putz Rove has pulled every lie-deny-smear tactics imaginable.
To me it doesn't seem hard to counter his moves, he hit paydirt when he studied every wrong move made during the Nixon administration and applied them to help Bush -- I'll admit , that was smart but not genius by any stretch.

Seems like Kerry team did no total background check on Rove to understand what exactly they were dealing with.

[snowbear]

46. No chit... I agree with MadFloridian.

Why not offer suggestions instead of trashing your own?

Look into the face of the opposition-

[Search Party]

49. Just as it seems odd to bash on someone

for having a differing opinion. What's democratic about that?

[AuntPatsy]

53. Your so far off the mark, no one is bashing an opinion if it was

a well formed one, obviously this one is not, this generalizing is nothing short of self defeating, can you honestly deny that?

[mtnsnake]

58. No, you are the one who's off the mark.

You shouldn't be so afraid of someone's opinion that we're not tough as a party and that one person (me) decided not to contribute until we get tougher. I'm not telling you what to do or not to do with your money.

[AuntPatsy]

63. I stand by what I say, your very far off the mark and if your

of age, you know this, there are many that simply do not take the time or have the time to further investigate your allegations that the DEMS which you did NOT name names but simply put your label on every single DEM are doing NOTHING...

Your off the mark period and wrong not to include more information with such an outrageous and personal observation of the Dem party..

[Search Party]

64. Dean, Boxer, Maxine, Conyers

so few, so little time. I think mtnsnake makes a good point. They blew this from the get go with pro war votes, and they are spineless to do the right thing now, as a whole party, and say, "No more. Bring them home. The right is Wrong for our boys and Wrong for America."

[mtnsnake]

80. "as a whole party, and say, No more. Bring them home. "

You really hit the nail on the head, Search Party.

If they ever took your advice and did that, the first thing I'd want to do would be to empty my wallet on their behalf. Well, maybe not empty it, but you know what I mean... ;)

[LittleClarkie]

90. I think the Dems want them home

but want them home in a responsible manner, as opposed to a Saigon-style fubar retreat.

[flpoljunkie]

111. No one is asking for a "Saigon-style FUBAR retreat." Are they?

[LittleClarkie]

114. OUT NOW!!!

No, they're not asking for it specifically. But they'll get it. Esp. since Cheney and Rummy were in the Ford admin and were pushing Ford to do exactly what he did instead of a more orderly pullout.

I'd feel better about a pullout if Kerry was in there.

But then again, no matter what, with Bush at the helm, it will be a fuba,r so maybe it doesn't matter. Carry on.

[mtnsnake]

73. If only our party was as tough as this forum

we'd be sitting in the winners circle right now.

Look, if you really think that my post is coming off as some organized pitch for people to withhold funds from our Party (which it is not), then by all means please alert the admins and request it be closed. If they agree with you, I have no problem with them doing so, because my intention is not what you're saying. My OP is a vent that I, personally, will not contribute again to the Democratic Party until they get tough. For example, until our Democratic congress people start speaking out and calling Bush just what he is...a liar...we will not go anywhere. I'm' sick of losing because we're too soft and afraid to call a spade a spade.

[European Socialist]

32. There's no excuse!

Bush has ruined the Country and the Democrats don"t even dare say it.

[mtnsnake]

35. Exactly my point.

It's simply frustrating that the only person to do so is a private citizen who lost her son in Bush's obscene war for oil....and our Democratic Party stands by and says virtually nothing on her behalf.

[expatriot]

39. I say it and I am a Democrat.

Damn it! I get into good ass discussions on a regular basis at two times every day: When it is time to go to work and when I should have been in bed an hour ago. I must go.

[AuntPatsy]

40. Name names and quit generalizing, it does your voice no good.

[European Socialist]

67. Sure, most of them make a good speech on C-Span...

But they don't act in unison and call Bush a scoundrel and say he is driving us off a cliff!

[AuntPatsy]

74. Obviously neither do the posters on this message board....

this is democracy, deal with it, it's not hard to understand..what bothers me about this thread is NOT one's personal opinion, it is the outright generalization of an entire group.

Is it that hard to understand that NOT all people think the same, it doesn't matter from which political spectrum one finds themselves encased in, you will always have those that differ, it's inevitable.

[LittleClarkie]

87. The far right in power is quite the drag

The far left in power, I suspect, would be an equal drag.

Because neither is exactly looking for a democracy. Both would like to drag the country into what each considers the best route. Whether they wanna go, or not.

[flpoljunkie]

117. Rationalizing votes that do not honor what Democrats ought to stand for,

namely economic justice, will do us no good with the American people who need someone to stand up for them. We know it ain't gonna be the Republicans, but why are he Democrats marching with the elephants when they should be standing up and fighting for economic justice--voting against the bankruptcy bill.

It could have sent a mighty message to the American people, in states red and blue, and they blew it -- way too many caved in to the filthy lucre of the bank and credit card companies.

[LittleClarkie]

122. 14 Democrats does not the Party make

Generalization.

[flpoljunkie]

125. 14? 25 Dems voted against the bankruptcy bill--18 voted with the Rethugs.

[LittleClarkie]

126. Brain fart. Sorry. Okay, add four more. Still not "The Party."

is it? Where is this on their agenda?

Come the time of reckoning I want the arrow pointed at the Republicans, if you don't mind.

[AuntPatsy]

133. I'm on board with that!

[flpoljunkie]

178. Support for working Americans should be a central tenet of our party.

Point the arrow at the Rethugs all you want, but without help from the Democrats they could not have passed the bankruptcy bill--a wet dream for the banks and credit card companies. The Dems could have filibustered this bill and stopped it--and yet, they chose not to. Not ony was it morally reprehensible, it was incredibly stupid!

We, the Democrats, can't effectively point the arrow at the Republicans, when we are already hopping about, with an arrow protuding from our own foot.

[European Socialist]

143. so you are saying go easy on Smirk-just like the GOP did with Carter and

Clinton.

[madfloridian]

43. The one this post says withhold money from...has said it often.

I think this is really overboard.

Dean just this last Sunday went after Bush bigtime.....and now you come here and say withhold money from the party of which he is chair...because he doesn't speak out.

[LittleClarkie]

47. I didn't realize that Conyers wasn't a Democrat

And it seems to me that Give Em Hell Harry Reid has had some sharp words in the not to distant past.

Or is it that in this MTV society of ours, if it didn't happen two minutes ago, it didn't happen.

Many of us could produce evidence to the contrary, I reckon. But there will still be those who repeat "The Dems don't fight" because as the old saying goes, "A conclusion is where you got tired of thinking." 'Cause you know, thinkin' is hard weeerrrrk.

[European Socialist]

56. Can you say it with a straight face-that dems have fought a good fight....

for the past 5 years. If so, I want some of what your smoking.

[LittleClarkie]

60. I haven't been a member for 5 years

I am a member now. And I see signs of life. Snuffing it isn't the answer. Fanning it is. Do something positive.

[AuntPatsy]

61. Actually I CAN, wake up and smell the railroading that begun

with Clinton against all things Liberal and intensified when the world was brought to it's knees for a time after nine one one.....

[LittleClarkie]

77. And the unthinkable happened

Not the Twin Towers falling, though that was unthinkable as well.

The unthinkable was that the Republicans, looking around and seeing all the unity, would think to themselves "How can I use this politically?" The Dems were with them in Afghanistan. We were all unified for a time. Then the Republicans started pimp-slapping the Dems with 9/11.

Now if you look at the Dems as a battered wife, as MM has suggested, do you:

A. Try to help that battered wife see a new way.
or
B. Berate her for not fighting hard enough.

We forget what it was like just two years ago. You couldn't utter a peep of dissent or you were unAmerican. One peep out of the Dixie Chicks and all hell broke loose. It took a while for us ALL to wake up. I don't blame the Dems for being frozen in place for a time. I am satisfied that they are now showing signs of waking, however.

[AuntPatsy]

81. Excellent little summary and so on the mark. Bless you.

[LittleClarkie]

42. The DNC is weak, so let's make them weaker

in hopes that it will make them strong.

Yeah, that'll work.

They'll just turn to corporations to get their money, and whatever political say your money gave you won't be there.

I have no time for dinking around. Either I support them. Or I don't. Either electing Democrats is the way out of this mess. Or it isn't.

If it is, then I will support them. With time and money and petitions and whatever else.

If it isn't, then I might as well leave the party. Because throwing a tantrum at them because they're not doing exactly what I want exactly when I want it is not the answer.

Either I work positively for change, or I find someplace else where I can work positively for change.

I will give when I can. I have given in the past. At the moment I'm somewhat tapped. They'll probably have to wait for tax time to get any more.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, are you saying that Dean has lost his balls since becoming DNC Chairman?

And, if the Dems plan to push certain candidates in areas they think they can win, is that showing balls? Some have been upset that perhaps the candidate they would have preferred won't be backed by the party. But if the Dems win some seats, will they still be crying? Or will they be happy that we're closer to being a majority again, even if it's with a candidate they're not happy about?

Either you support them or you don't. If you don't, find somebody TO support. Because just sitting there is not an option.

[AuntPatsy]

51. You tell em.

[flpoljunkie]

55. Okay, then. Let them tell us they stand with us, and not the corporations

This is all they need to do. We will stand with them when they do. Until then, I will donate to individual Democrats who stand up, speak out, and vote like Democrats. The Democrats might find themselves in contention in the so-called "Red States."

We need to hold their feet to the fire, or they will keep on using us.

[LittleClarkie]

59. What is "The Democratic Party". Who are the "they" you want to hear from

If there are individuals you think are fighting, then why say the Party isn't fighting. I don't understand separating individual Dems from the party itself.

Is the "they" you want to hear from Dean? He's not fighting? Since when?

Who exactly is "they"?

[AuntPatsy]

68. I see you haven't gotten a response, boy I am shocked.

[LittleClarkie]

71. It's hard to express a blank look verbally

It's not easy prying that broad brush outta people's hands. But I gots to try.

[AuntPatsy]

76. Agree, and your doing a good job.

[flpoljunkie]

72. The leaders of the Democratic Party need to speak up and they might

want to repudiate their vote for the one-sided bankruptcy bill, a blatant giveaway to the banks and credit card companies.

The Democratic party tends to not only take the base for granted, but to actively dump on them. It is time we said enough is enough and demand they vote like Democrats.

I have heard not one word from Dean on the bankruptcy bill. If he has said something against it, please let's hear about it. That he has not, is telling.

[LittleClarkie]

78. I tend not to ride the vote rollercoaster.

You end up with, for example,

Feingold's great. Feingold's shit. Feingold's great again. And on.

One vote for Gonzalez, and for a while, he was shit. But he's not shit. He's great.

The Bankruptcy Bill belongs to the Republicans. They are the majority. We are the minority. Even when a majority of Dems want to stop something, say ANWR, we can't if a very small minority of Dems defects.

Life in the minorty means you can't change jack sometimes. But life in the minority also means you make damn sure the shit sticks to the majority party.

It's all theirs. I wouldn't dream of dilluting the blame by smearing the Dems with it as well.

[flpoljunkie]

82. Bankruptcy bill vote 74-25 with 18 Democrats selling out to big banks.

Plus, the Democrats could have stopped it with the cloture vote, and they chose not to--they enabled it to pass! They sold out to the banks and credit card companies--plain and simple.

As Molly Ivins, said about this vote, if the Dems can't vote against this horrid bankruptcy bill, what good are they? What good, indeed!

[LittleClarkie]

86. Sounds like a minority of the Dems

There are more than 18 of them, right?

So that wouldn't be the "Democratic Party" per se, but a dissenting minority.

So we're berrating the party as whole because....?

[flpoljunkie]

89. Actually 18 voted YES, 25 NO. Disgraceful, should not have been 1 Dem vote

Read this, "The Resurgence of Movement Politics" from David Sirota who writes for The Nation magazine, has worked for the Center for American Progress and has helped establish PLAN--the Progressive Legislative Action Network. John Edwards spoke at their recent gathering in California.

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20050829&s=sirota

The Democratic Party is caught in a downward spiral and is using its supposed "big tent" as an excuse for its weaknesses. Democratic politicians have always said that "ideological diversity is the Democrats strength," but that refrain is now being shamelessly used as a way to obscure the fact that the Democratic Party is ideologically rudderless. The party often permits and even congratulates those within its ranks who sell out America's middle class, whether it be those who voted for the bankruptcy bill or those who consistently vote for corporate-written trade deals like CAFTA or NAFTA. The party elites--many of whom follow the corporate apologism of business-funded groups within its ranks--still believe they can ascend to power on the public's loyalty to a Democratic Party label, even as that party label is almost completely meaningless to much of the public.

The only solution, then, is for progressives to stop solely focusing on partisan politics, and start focusing on movement politics. On every single issue, we must have a clear position that articulates not just a policy stance, but an overarching progressive ideology. Because without a movement, we have no ability to hold politicians' feet to the fire, no ability to develop credibility with voters and no ability to win elections.

Think about it. In the corruption scandal surrounding Tom DeLay, our attacks rightly drive up conservatives' negatives, but those negatives do not translate into support for us because we haven't taken an ideological stand that says we are serious about cleaning up government through initiatives like public financing of elections and lobbying reform.

On the Iraq War, we see progressive candidate Paul Hackett almost win a Congressional seat in the staunchly conservative Cincinnati suburbs by running on a strong antiwar platform. Yet, in its postelection analysis, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee omits that fact, essentially urging Democrats to keep silent on the war, and thus negates any antiwar movement building that could power progressives to future victories.

[LittleClarkie]

91. Paul Hackett, as has been pointed out, is not a progressive

His politics are more conservative than many of those here would normally support. But like Dean, we liked his tough talk.

It was the tough talk plus the moderate politics that probably brought him within striking distance.

It's amazing how a candidate becomes "progressive" when they're popular, even when they aren't. And a truly liberal candidate becomes a "DLC sellout" when they're not popular.

Gotta love those popularity contests.

Personally I like more meat with them taters.

[flpoljunkie]

96. But what Hackett was was fearless, and refused to back down.

What conservative positions did Hackett take?

Too many Democrats are DLC sellouts. There is no denying that.

[Dr Fate]

105. That is the key- I dont mind moderates- it's the spinelessness.

That is why I think the "we need to be more moderate" or "we need to be more liberal" arguments are misguided.

We need to start off by telling the blunt, unvarnished truth about our opponents- like Hackett does. That would be a great start to winning elections again.

[flpoljunkie]

109. Because the party isn't fighting, only individual Democratic Senators.

The party's leaders sold out to the banks and credit card companies, and the head of the DNC said not a word against the egregious bankruptcy bill--a wet dream the banks and credit card companies have contributed millions to the coffers of both parties to achieve.

If the leaders of the Democratic party do not stand up for economic justice, what good are they? And what legislation have they stopped--other than Dubya's lunatic plans to destroy Social Security--not class action law suits, not the bankruptcy bill, not Dubya's bloated energy giveaway to big oil, and not the massive pork barrel transportation bill.

Not good enough!

[LittleClarkie]

115. Name. Them.

Names. Not "the leaders".

Who. are. they?

[flpoljunkie]

123. Those 25 Dem Senators who voted against the bankruptcy bill. Listed below.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00044


NAYs ---25

Akaka (D-HI)
Boxer (D-CA)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Corzine (D-NJ)
Dayton (D-MN)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Mikulski (D-MD)
Murray (D-WA)
Obama (D-IL)
Reed (D-RI)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Wyden (D-OR)

[Adelante]

185. That's what I want to know

Who exactly is "they"?

In this thread it seems to be the DNC or the Dem leadership. In three or six threads a day it seems to be the DLC. Another day it so-called national security Dems. It's pro-life Dems. It's patriotic Dems. It's some the fuck other kind of Dem and his brothers and sisters.

When do we become "we" as a party? When do we win again? That's a whole lot more interesting to me than these daily efforts to divide the Democratic Party.

And, please, everybody, save your breath on who your paticular faction is or who your particular faction wants to drive out of the Democratic Party. We've heard it all already.

LC is correct. If you have a gripe with an individual Democrat on policy or action, make your influence felt and your voice heard. But stop, EVERYBODY!, just stop trying to make the Democratic Party yours and only yours.

[flpoljunkie]

186. The "they" is the Democratic leadership who "go along to get along", sell

out working Americans by enabling legilation like the bankruptcy bill--an egregious giveaway to the banks and credit card companies.

The Democratic leadership missed a golden opportunity to distinguish themselves from Republicans. For this, they must be called out. If we continue to let them sell out what should be the core principle of our party--economic justice--we cannot and do not deserve to win.

If they stand with the American people, the American people will stand with them. Instead they prefer to kowtow to big business--particularly big banks. Incredibly stupid move!

[Adelante]

187. Call them out one by one

Yes.

[flpoljunkie]

188. Let's start with those 18 Dems who voted for the one-sided bankruptcy bill

You can pick them out of the lineup yourself.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00044

Vote Number: 44 Vote Date: March 10, 2005, 06:12 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Bill Passed
Measure Number: S. 256 (Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 )
Measure Title: A bill to amend title 11 of the United States Code, and for other purposes.
Vote Counts: YEAs 74
NAYs 25
Not Voting 1

YEAs ---74

Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Burr (R-NC)
Byrd (D-WV)
Carper (D-DE)
Chafee (R-RI)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Conrad (D-ND)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Inouye (D-HI)
Isakson (R-GA)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kohl (D-WI)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Pryor (D-AR)
Reid (D-NV)
Roberts (R-KS)
Salazar (D-CO)
Santorum (R-PA)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

[Adelante]

203. Thanks, but I know who they are

I mean, instead of damning the DNC or the DSCC or the DLC, or any group of Democrats, take them on in terms of issues and policy -- just like the bankruptcy bill, specifics, one on one. Slam them good for what they do or don't do without slamming the party or any group within the party. This is how we can demand accountability without destroying the party, because if we go into 2006 with the kind of schisms that are developing, we're sunk, and we can kiss 2008 goodbye. We don't have time to fight with each other, not when it means handing the game over to the Republicans. Let's fight with them. They're the enemy.

[flpoljunkie]

205. How you "take them on" is not to reward them when they f*ck up!

Let them know you will not stand for them betraying the central tenet of the Democratic party--economic justice.

I chose to support Democrats who vote like Democrats,target donations wherever they will do the most good for the party and what it ought to stand up for--and vote for.

If you chose not to do this, it is your choice. I have made a different choice.

[Adelante]

206. Good for you

Let's have more Republican wins. Let's have four, eight, twelve, twenty more years.

[flpoljunkie]

208. If Democrats stood up & voted like Democrats, we could take back Congress

and the White House. This is their problem, not standing up, not speaking out. Until they do, we are destined to continue losing.

[wiley]

98. You are SO right

Great idea.

[zulchzulu]

44. Instead of just giving money, join us in the grassroots efforts

You'll find it's a lot harder than just writing a check or PayPal contributing. We have enough people on the sidelines whining. We need people on the ground contributing and helping hold down the fort.

Don't wait for the Cavalry. You are it.

[LittleClarkie]

57. One thing about alternative grassroots though

is the duplication of efforts. During the last election for instance, Moveon and ACT were canvassing areas, and then when the Dems would go to canvass the same areas, those people would say they'd already talked to someone.

But the Dems and ACT and Moveon can't share info. So that made GOTV harder than it should have been.

I wish there was a way grassroot orgs could do the things that the party ISN'T doing, instead of duplicating what it IS doing. Because here in the battleground state of Wisconsin, we really ended up with folks who were going to shoot us if they got one more damn phone call.

[madfloridian]

45. Astroturf.

Not green grass.

[DinahMoeHum]

62. At this point, only the DNC, DFA, and PDA are worth sending $$$ to.

The Progressives (PDA),Howard Dean's start-up org (DFA) and the newly-revitalized DNC (under Dean's leadership) are the only ones willing to kick ass and take names within the Democratic Party. And THEY are the ones who will challenge the DLC corporate types dominating the current Dem leadership

www.pdamerica.org

www.democrats.org

www.democracyforamerica.com

Instead of simply bitching about the current state of the Democratic Party, why not visit these sites? There is plenty of stuff to do there, plenty of ways in which you can help out. And rest assured, they have plans and candidates to support, and they will go all out to fulfill their goals.

OTOH, to hell with the DCCC and the DSCC. They're too far behind the times, and too Beltway-oriented. Steer clear of these losers.


:kick:

[Larkspur]

66. Have you not heard of DNC Chairman Howard Dean?

He's been smacking the Repukes every chance he gets.

[orleans]

69. i got a little fund raising letter from "john kerry" the other day

you could check a donation box for $65, some other amount and "other".

i checked "other" and wrote a note: go ahead and use some of the money i sent you last year since you didn't use it to contest the election results in ohio.

and...i don't even have to put a stamp on the envelope! it's postage prepaid.


i also got a fund raising call a couple weeks ago from the "friends of john kerry". i told the girl that he wasn't my friend anymore--we had a fight a broke up last year. i said to her: "see, i'm still pissed off about that election, you know?" and she said: "oh yeah...i totally understand."

yeah. then pass it on.

[seersuckersuit]

83. haha

I'm so sick of those ridiculous "John Kerry" emails either.

[LittleClarkie]

85. Then take yourself off the the fucking list then

HELLO!?

"Gee I really hate it when I hit myself in the face."

"Stop doing it then."

"But then I couldn't complain about how much I really hate it when I hit myself in the face."

Can't have that.

There is an unsubscribe function. Use it.

[LittleClarkie]

84. Whatever

Go to opensecrets.org and look up what he had left at the end of 2004. Then look up what Gore had at the end of 2000. Same amount. Including the GELAC fund. Whatever money they had, they must have used on the lawyers observing all over the country. I assume they had to eat or something. Or they used it in part for the lawsuit in Ohio, to pay McTigue the lawyer. They may be pulling out of that now.

And nobody can tell me how, if they're pulling out now, implying that Kerry was doing something, that people can continue to say he did nothing. How do you stop doing nothing. Why would people be up in arms because he's about to stop doing... nothing.

And then there was the money he gave to the DCCC. And the money he gave to the DNC in honor of Dean being elected Chairman. And the money for the governor fight in Washington and the runnoff elections in Lousisiana.

I'm not an expert on campaign finance, however. But I would wager neither are you. The money he's been donating could have been the old primary money he couldn't use. Or it could have been the GELAC. Dunno. Coulda been that the GELAC was all but used up on observing the vote.

I got a call last week from the Friends of John Kerry. I gave 20 bucks I'm thinking now I couldn't afford.

By the way, PAC money must be fresh money. Can't be old campaign money. Go and tell the kids who need health care that you thought it was more important to take out your frustrations on some poor shlub who has to deal with your cards and letter.

Perhaps, instead, you could come up with some cute little way to do SOMETHING POSITIVE, EH?

[orleans]

100. nice lecture. you mean john kerry is gonna fund health care for children?

wow.

you're right--i don't know all about this election crap--i know he had a lot of money left over that i donated to HIM to use for HIM to get elected or contest the vote--not for HIM to give to someone else.

and in my own "cute" little way i feel i am doing SOMETHING POSITIVE when i donate to the following organizations (many of which i am a member of): ACLU, ACT, african wildlife foundation, american ass. of university women, americans united for separation of church and state, amnesty international, aspca, brady campaign to prevent gun violence, chicago public radio, common cause, defenders of wildlife, earth justice, environmental defense, feminist majority, greenpeace, habitat for humanity, human rights campaign, human rights watch, league of conservation voters, international fund for animal welfare, illinois audubon society, international rescue committee, madd, naacp, naral, national arbor day foundation, national parks conservation, national wildlife federation, nature conservancy, nclr, now, national resource defense council, ocean conservancy, oxfam, peta, planned parenthood, physicians for social responsibility, rainforest action network, rainforest alliance, sierra club, southern poverty law center, unicef, union of concerned scientists, united farmworkers, wilderness society, wildlife land trust, world wildlife fund.

last year i sent money to the dnc, obama, kerry, and a handful of democratic candidates that were out of state.

i sign petitions, email senators & congress, write letters to the editors. i email dean & the dnc regarding election reform and paper ballots. the last letter i sent was a support letter for cindy sheehan.

i do my best to make a positive difference -- i don't think kerry did his best. i'm still pissed about it--big deal--why the hell do i have to send HIM money in order to do something positive?

on edit: and i also signed on to the DU activist corp to do SOMETHING POSITIVE.

[LittleClarkie]

103. Well, kudos to you for all that donating

You don't have to donate to Kerry to be doing something positive.

But what I was trying to give you was not a lecture, but facts that you didn't seem to have. You seem to think he had a shitload of the GELAC money left. I tell you that according to opensecrets.org, that's not true.

All I know about that he had left was the primary money.

So if you're doing all that positive stuff, why fuck around with doing stuff with an envelope and asking him to use money I'm telling you can't be used in that fashion. Why waste your time?

Esp when I really don't think you can prove that he had a shitload of GELAC money left.

It's been quite amusing, some of the numbers people have coughed up. 48 million, 50 million, a bazzillion (yeah, that's dealing in reality.) It was more like 15 million, and as far as I know, it was mostly the primary money.

I've heard stories about how people would see Kerry dead tired and still trying to listen to everyone as he shook their hands going down the line. I was in a battleground state. Don't tell me the man didn't work. I saw it.

So, as I said, I'm glad you're doing positive things. Just didn't see the point of harrassing some telemarketer or office worker. Yeah, that'll help.

[orleans]

129. (cough)

"why fuck around with doing stuff with an envelope and asking him to use money I'm telling you can't be used in that fashion. Why waste your time?"

because i'm still pissed off. or weren't you able to tell?

[LittleClarkie]

138. I know. I know. I go off on crying jags myself

Looking at Kerry and thinking what could have been will do that. Rush and his "Club Gitmo" will too.

Hey, I'm new. Ya need our youthful enthusiasm (said the 41 year old). I'm not ready to stop. I've barely started. And if I don't put my time and money into something not Bush, I'm going to go cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

[sendero]

92. I agree with your premise...

... but not response. I will give money to the DNC, because I think Dr. Dean is on the right track.

As for most of the Dem senate - they are as useless as tits on a boar hog and they ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Only the barest handful has the courage of a puppy. At some point, we are going to have to rid ourselves of these milquetoast appeasers, that is all there is to it.

And please, "the media won't report what they say". Yes, that's because they won't take a tough, simple stand on anything. When you talk like WWE Smackdown, you get on TV,when you talk like Little Bo Peep, you don't. Nobody wants to hear it, simple as that.

[LittleClarkie]

93. HOW IS DEAN SUPPOSED TO CONDUCT A 50-STATE STRATEGY THEN?

HUH?

Thanks for nuthin'.

[Imagevision]

97. It'll take more then the usual from moveon.org for me to contribute

I want action, not words and promises!

[JNelson6563]

106. Yeah, Dean's such a wuss

:eyes:

[LittleClarkie]

110. Yeah, fuck that coward and his stupid 50 state strategy!

Where's my mower! I got some grassroots to mow down.

Ahahahahahahaha!

[AuntPatsy]

118. Administration, can we please lock this thread, its very counter

productive, it has definately played it's hand for what that was worth.

[LittleClarkie]

119. Cough... alert button... cough

Yeah, I'm kind of wound up here, ain't I. That's what happens when folks get on my last nerve.

And I really do think folks are forgetting that if they stop giving to the DNC, they will styme Dean's plans. I can't for the life of me figure out why they'd want that.

[AuntPatsy]

120. I did both, one can never be sure you know.

[LandOLincoln]

155. I can, and so can you, I'm sure. You're just too nice to say it. ;-)

"And I really do think folks are forgetting that if they stop giving to the DNC, they will styme Dean's plans. I can't for the life of me figure out why they'd want that."

[AuntPatsy]

168. Exactly why I am posting on this particular thread, I don't post often.

[JNelson6563]

135. Good one!

:toast:

[lojasmo]

112. Time for you to start paying attention.

Start with Howard Dean's recent interview on "Face the Nation"

Get back to me.

[Booster]

116. I'm totally with you. I'm not giving a damn cent to anybody either

until they show me they can stand up for me and this country. There are a few with spines and when their elections come up, I will donate to them, but I'm giving zilch to the DNC or ANY candidate that just rubber stamps whatever they are asked to do. Screw 'em.

[LittleClarkie]

121. Yeah, screw Dean! And that 50 state strategy of his! Who needs em!

We might.

[Booster]

128. I didn't say I wouldn't ever donate to them, but just not until I see

something concrete happening. Right now, I don't.

[LittleClarkie]

137. With Dean working on his strategy now, how does "maybe someday" help?

Do you not see what I'm saying at all? We have somebody in there trying to fight for the Party, and people want to cut him off at the knees. Think of the bat, man. Think of the bat! Dude needs you to have his back. Don't cut out on him now! Later might be too late. After 2006, if what was promised hasn't materialized, I'll be bitching with you. But I'm for giving the DNC Chairman and the DNC some slack.

[Booster]

141. And do you see that if they don't start doing something about

stolen elections, we can all donate a million dollars each and it won't make any difference, except we will be out a million. If the elections aren't fixed, we don't have a chance in Hell of taking back any power at all, and I just don't see the Dems, including Kerry, fighting this. Makes me wonder hmmmmmmmm. Is it job security? They know they won't lose their job in an election so nothing else matters?

[LittleClarkie]

149. Don't forget that Dean was one of the ones pushing the election issue

before the election. Wasn't he at a demonstration of the hacking of a Diebold machine?

I gotta believe. For now.

[mtnsnake]

154. Why do you continue to misinterpret what's being said. Is it on purpose??

You really don't take opposing viewpoints well, do you.

My post wasn't directed at Dean.

Like spenbax made purposely clear, they need to show some spine...and we'll gladly return to donating to the party if and when this party starts showing some toughness. They need to stand up and fight for our cause instead of turning the other cheek. The minute they get together and denounce what the other side is trying to do to Cindy Sheehan...the minute they stand up in front of a TV microphone and call Bush a liar like Cindy did...well that will be the moment they'll get my donations again and gladly.

Quit being so confrontational because you thought this was a Dean bashfest by me. It wasn't intended to be. If anything it was more about the emails I always get from Kerry asking for money. I like Dean. I just don't like how our party as a whole turns their collective cheeks the other way when they should be pasting away at those corrupt neocons in the white house and labeling them for what they are in public, not just in emails.

[LittleClarkie]

162. Sorry. I have a difference of opinion about who you will affect

if you advocate cutting off the Democratic Party.

I've got Dean's back. Do you?

[magellan]

124. Not long ago the DNC accepted that whitewash of GOP election fraud

...and that told me all I needed to know. If they can't take election reform seriously enough to back one of their own and most respected members, then nothing else they do matters.

[orleans]

127. i'm noticing that some people here seem to be extremely married

to the democratic party

they can't listen to a breath of criticism about anyone who's name has a D after it

if we expect more or demand more or demand better we're assholes.

they talk as if we are suppose to support any democrat regardless....

(damn! i thought only republicans were MARRIED to their party and dared not criticize their so-called "leaders")

apparently some here think we should behave like republicans.

two words: zell miller (D)

well, i've been a flaming liberal all my life so maybe that's my problem. i actually expect something from my party. i don't get all warm and squishy just because someone has a D after their name.

i'm with you mtnsnake--i'm sick to death of so much inaction by so many, their backroom horse trading, the fact that so many of them are able to be bought and sold (take biden and his bankruptcy vote ala credit card company donations--and didn't he say some shit about cindy sheehan lately in his attempt to prove to the republicans how "moderate" he is?)

(if it walks like a republican (D), talks like a republican (D), and votes like a republican (D) i believe it's called a dino)

[AuntPatsy]

130. I see you haven't taken the time to read all the responses on this

thread, its time to name names and QUIT generalizing so much, it hurts us all. NO ONE here is telling people not to hash out the difficulties they encounter in this party.

That is NOT the message that I have read on this thread.

[LittleClarkie]

132. Exactly. Kinda hard to hold "them" responsible

when you're not sure who "they" are.

[orleans]

136. um...you see WRONG. i've read every post.

never assume.

[AuntPatsy]

140. I promise you, I wasn't assuming anything, though I have been

known to assume a time or two, your words lay credence to the fact that you are not completely aware of what was being posted in this thread....

[orleans]

145. well,

i could say the same thing about yours.
("your words lay credence to the fact that you are not completely aware of what was being posted in this thread")

[AuntPatsy]

169. Very true...

[LittleClarkie]

131. No, just looking for the facts and trying to pry a broad brush out

of some people hands.

Specifics. Still looking for specifics. "They" are not fighting. Who is "they".

And consequences. We have a Chairman who's trying to grow grassroots out there for us, conducting a 50 state strategy that's gonna need money, honey, to work. When you're trying to grow crops, it's counter productive not to irrigate. And at the least, I don't want to hear "how come they're dead" coming out of the mouth of anyone who says "not another cent."

I just got here. If I'm married, then I'm still on my fucking honeymoon. Don't mind me if I'm still trying to make the relationship work. I'm just not at the "fuck em" stage yet.

I want unity. I want results. I want productivity. I want folks to stop saying we need to be more like the Republicans in our strategy and then bitch when someone tries to herd a few cats.

Too much to ask?

[AuntPatsy]

134. DITTO! You tell em!

[orleans]

144. (smile) what makes you think i was talking about you?

i didn't "name names"

[AuntPatsy]

146. ;-) Ahhhhh but you obviously generalized so everyone that

made a post in here is suspect then, don't ya think?

[madfloridian]

147. (grin) I would say it is about me...but..

If I said that, I would have people jumping in and saying "madfloridian shut up this is not about you...you make everything about you, it is not all about you..."

And then they would say "you think Howard Dean can do no wrong" "geez, talk about worship"

B-) :evilgrin: :D

And then it would start again. (smile) (grin)

[orleans]

148. (total complete grin to smile)

:hug:

[LittleClarkie]

150. Gee, you mean I'm a top Dem?

Why, I don't know what to say. This is so sudden.

Who'da thunk it.

[EVDebs]

156. "We're either wilth Bush or against him" -- Dems, we're against him !

On most issues Bush doesn't speak for me. The economy, the Middle East, almost everything the neocons have touched.

We need to demonstrate IN THE STREETS.

[orleans]

158. a bit of my laundry list

regarding voting records:

january 6: speaks for itself
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00001

jan 26: thank you 13 "nays"
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00002

feb 3: gonzales vote (alberto is also enjoyed by the two nelsons, pryor, salazar, landriue & liberman)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00003

march 1 (bankruptcy--to protect servicemenbers & veterans from means testing but baucus, biden, byrd & nebraska nelson says naw)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00013

march 2: (bankruptcy--to provide a homestead floor for elderly, but biden, carper, jeffords & nebraska nelson says naw. inouye doesn't vote again)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00014

march 2: (bankruptcy--the kennedy amdt. to exempt debtors whose financial problems were caused by serious medical problems from means testing but biden, carper, johnson & nebraska's nelson say naw--dodd & inouye no vote)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00016

march 3: (bankruptcy, to exempt debtors from means testing if their financial problems were caused by identity theft--but ((say it with me)) biden, bingaman, carper, johnson, & nebraska's nelson said naw & no vote from feingold & inouye)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00021

march 3: (bankruptcy to discourage predatory lending practices but ...see above and delete bingaman)
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00022

march 10 (bankruptcy to exempt debtors whose financial problems were caused by a failure to receive alimony or child support or both from means testing. see above
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00036

march 10 (the main bankruptcy bill with 15 dems voting "hot doggie i'm all for it"--go here and find the link
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_109_1.htm

then there was the one about anwr (with akaka, inouye & landrieu being the disappointments), nelson from florida who voted to fuck amtrack, nelson from florida who voted against expanding access to preventive health care services that reduce unintended pregnancy)

well, i know this is from a few months ago--but it's just a little snippet in time that i looked at a few months back. and i equate their vote with words--whether they stand up and do the right thing or whether they don't.

and their silence on issues speaks volumes as well. a long time ago i read somewhere that when someone is running off at the mouth with a racist comment or two or more and you keep silent (even though you don't agree) your silence basically condones their behavior. if you don't open your mouth and tell them you find what they're saying to be offensive and that you refuse to listen to it then the message you send is that you think what they're saying is acceptable.

they send us a message by their actions (votes), their words, and their silence.

i send them a message by my actions (donations or lack thereof), and my words.

and just as i was writing the last sentence i got a call from the DCCC. small world, eh?

don't get me wrong--there are plenty of dems i love/like. i could list them too. but for now i've got to go.

[mtnsnake]

161. Thanks for taking the time for that list, orleans. I especially agree with

what you said about how "their silence on issues speaks volumes as well. a long time ago i read somewhere that when someone is running off at the mouth with a racist comment or two or more and you keep silent (even though you don't agree) your silence basically condones their behavior. if you don't open your mouth and tell them you find what they're saying to be offensive and that you refuse to listen to it then the message you send is that you think what they're saying is acceptable."

Very well said.

[orleans]

165. you're welcome. and thank you. n/t

[mtnsnake]

159. My apologies to Howard Dean in my thread. It wasn't meant to be about him

even though a couple of people tried to make it seem that way over and over. When I said "Democratic leaders" I meant ALL the congress people who've been so silent when they should be blasting away. I'm a Dean fan myself, but just because he's the head of the party right now doesn't mean I shouldn't feel the way I do about not contributing to the party financially until they, all of them, stand up and publicly direct some heated rhetoric towards the criminals on the other side. They have a perfect opportunity to show some unity right now and stick up for Cindy. When they start doing things like that, they won't have to ASK me for money.

I stand by what I said in the OP of this thread. Like it or not, the Republicans have made this a sparring match, or worse, between our two parties. We need to step into the ring at some point and stand up to them. Give it to them good.

[LittleClarkie]

160. It may not be about him, but he's in the crossfire

Not giving to the DNC means you're not supporting his plan to get the DNC on its feet.

I'm not "making it seem" like anything. Them's the facts, Jack. You may not be pissed at Dean, but your pissing on his plan if you say that you're not going to support the organization he heads.

It can't help but be about him. He's the damn chairman!!

[mtnsnake]

163. Oh come on. Read the title of the thread. Please don't make it sound like

I'm not going to ever donate again or that I'm "pissing" on his (Dean's) plan. You're simply putting your own words into my mouth and it's not right.

Like I said in the thread title itself, I'm not going to donate again to the party until they get tough. That doesn't mean forever, unless they never get tough, and if that's the case then there will be no party to worry about.

[LittleClarkie]

164. Dean's plan is now

So when do you think you might start up again? You don't have to be pissed at Dean or his plan to affect it.

He's building the party NOW. Support it NOW or you may not get another chance. HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU THINK WE HAVE?

[Q]

166. You have every right...

...to withhold donating to parties or politicians if you feel they're not representing you.

But the problem is that the New Democratic Leadership is positioning the party to replace the pittance you might give them with boatloads of corporate cash. This way they can have all the cash they need to run their campaigns and won't have to be beholden to the 'commoners'.

[LittleClarkie]

167. There you go, consequences

That's all I'm saying.

[AuntPatsy]

170. lol

[LittleClarkie]

171. Excuse me while I scream

Why is this such a hard concept to get.

It's like telling a mother that you don't have a beef with her, just her children.

How can you detach a man from the organization he heads, and say you have nothing against him, just the party he's trying to grow. Now. Right now. Not some time in the future when the party is doing exactly what you want exactly when you want it. Right now.

Either work from within to change the Party if it's not to your liking, or if you don't think you can do that, go work positively elsewhere.

In or out, people. In or out. Either we're going to ride the party to a majority, or we are not.

We don't have time to fuck around.

[orleans]

172. you said

"It's like telling a mother that you don't have a beef with her, just her children."

I look at it more from a behavioral stand point--for example, I don't reward my child when i do not approve of her behavior.

"Behavioral psychology posits that a person's behavior is learned and maintained by its consequences, or reward value. These consequences may be external reinforcement that occurs as a direct result of their behavior (e.g. money, social status, and goods), vicarious reinforcement that occurs by observing the behavior of others (e.g. observing others who are being reinforced as a result of their behavior), and self-regulatory mechanisms (e.g. people responding to their behavior). According to learning theorists, deviant behavior can be eliminated or modified by taking away the reward value of the behavior."
http://psy.ucsd.edu/~hflowe/psych.htm

when we keep rewarding them for their unacceptable behavior then 1. why should we expect their behavior to improve/change and 2. how will they know we disapprove?

"deviant behavior can be eliminated or modified by taking away the reward value of the behavior"

[LittleClarkie]

173. Ain't your kid

It's Dean's kid, and you're trying to starve the little tyke. Disciplining is up to him, not you. You can't separate a man from the organization he heads. You're either going to help him. Or you're not.

We don't have time to fuck around. The enemy is at the gate. And it ain't the Dems, let me tell you.

[orleans]

175. so disciplining dean's kid is not up to me but feeding his kid is?

i don't think so.

[LittleClarkie]

176. We're Democrats

What, you never hearda no welfare?

We feed other people's kids all the time.

Fine. Dean'll just have to go to a big fat corporation for support.

[LaPera]

174. I've decided to send my donations to local & state groups to help defeat

Guv Musclehead Arnold and his bullshit right-wing initiatives.

I feel my money is better spent supporting locally...The republicans fascist are trying to take over California, while bringing in electronic voting machines.

[lakeguy]

181. i'd still give money to dean!

we just need more of him...

[rniel]

182. Democrats are Republicans

I think the democrats were told by Karl Rove a while ago that they had better just accept their minority status for the next 50 years and play along and pretend to be an opposition party. Most of them will probably get to keep their jobs so why should they waste their beautiful mind on us little constituents.

We just don't need to beat the Republicans we need to get rid of some of these assholes in our own party first.

[LittleClarkie]

189. Got anything to back that theory up?

And if you "get rid of some of these assholes in our own party first" then you damn well better make sure that there is another Democrat sitting in that spot when you're done, or all you'll have done is ultimately help the Republicans keep that majority.

That's all I have to say on that. Get rid of the Leibermans if you so choose, but so help me we'd better not lose any more seats.

[rniel]

192. A few

Joe Biden:

"Howard Dean does not speak for me"

"I'm against what Cindy Sheehan is doing"

Joe Lieberman

"Passionately kissing bush"

John Kerry:

Is there anything about the war you'd do differently?
"No. Just would've gotten more allies involved"

[LittleClarkie]

197. Biden and Leiberman do not an entire party make

And you left a bit out on John. He wouldn't have been to Iraq at all. We'd be finishing the job in Afghanistan. Tora Bora, baby.

[LSK]

191. this kind of stupid statement has helped the GOP get to power n/t

[rniel]

193. I think

Democrats pushing way to the right is what helped the GOP get to power.

[LSK]

194. both statements are true

I make the case that a lot of people do not pay attention and assume Democrats and Republicans are the same and they do not vote.

However I see the point of Hillary and DLC members shifting to the middle. But we have NO OTHER CHOICE than to try to get DNC back in charge of the country.

[seabeyond]

183. i will put in your share. i want repugs out n/t

[DouglasRussel]

184. They're not all like that...

Yeah, Kerry tried that whole "take the high road" approach, which backfired horribly.

But, I think we're making progress.

As far as Rush, O'Rielly, and the rest of the Right Wing talkers, we have some great radio hosts on the left now who call out their BS on a daily basis (Stephanie Miller, Al Franken).

Also, Paul Hacket was a breath of fresh air. Called Bush a son-of-a-bitch, and started that whole chicken-hawk thing. Hopefully, he'll show up in another race soon.

Howard Dean is trying to be tough, but he seems to come off as a loose canon.

It's a start!

[LSK]

190. dont you people get it??? Without Congress in 2006, ITS OVER

You can forget about 2008. They will have fixed the elections for sure by then.

I dont understand you people who want to attack the DNC. It is our only hope. WHAT ELSE IS GOING TO STOP THE GOP??? NOTHING

If you dont like Biden, then work for another DEMOCRAT to oppose him. There are primaries. But when include the DNC in your anger of Biden or other DLC members, you are screwing the whole party and helping the GOP.

[LittleClarkie]

196. No, no they don't. Thank you. EXACTLY!

They're all we've got. Work to make it better if you see a problem within the party, but QUIT YER BITCHIN' OR GO FREAKIN' GREEN!

I gave as much as I could, which isn't much, plus I worked our State Fair, I proof the county party's newsletter and I'm volunteered on Doyle and Kennedy's campaigns. All they have to do is call.

Our county party is trying to make an activist name for itself, so that's exciting. They held a Cindy vigil right in the heart of a very Red county.

Positive action, people. Positive action!

[mtnsnake]

198. Since you're 1 of the self-aclaimed posters who gets it, please tell us

what your ingenious suggestions are for coming up with some other ways to make our Democratic Congressmen start acting TOUGHER. Please list the ways in your next post on what YOU would do to make these candy asses stand up and call Bush a liar. We've been supporting these guys financially more most of our lives and so far they haven't gotten the message.

On this forum, I read thousands of posts where people wish our Democratic spokespeople would get tough for once in their soft lives. Maybe you're satisfied with them turning the other cheek and taking the high road whenever the right wing attacks us, but I'm fed up with it.

I'll wait for your suggestions. Thanks.

[LittleClarkie]

199. And see, you still don't get it

I'm not looking for solutions to your problems with the party.

That's not what I mean by "getting it".

I mean that the Democratic Party is the only boat outta here.

I have no control over what they do.

I have complete control over what I do.

I signed on to that ship a few months ago. Sorry if I'm not ready to trash it out from under myself.

And you still don't get that you can't separate the leader of the party from the party itself. Whether you know it or not, what you do affects what Dean is trying to do. That is not a misrepresentation. That is a fact.

He and his plan are tied to the party. Don't support the party, and you aren't supporting him. "Gee, maybe someday when I'm satisfied they're fighting" won't cut it when his plan for the party is NOW.

That's what you don't get. I get it. So does the person above you.

Withholding money won't make them stronger for tougher. You'll just be one more voice they won't be hearing from. I don't think they'll notice frankly. They're quite large, doncha know. And if enough of you decide to withhold money, they'll just go back to corporations, and your voice will be lost.

I have an opposing view point from yours. I think what you're proposing is wrong. That is my opinion. I'm entitled to it, aren't I?

[mtnsnake]

200. Thanks for not answering my question and proving what I already suspected

You already suggested a zillion times that I shouldn't generalize about our party without implicating Dean because he's running the party. Okay, fine and dandy.

Now that that's out of the way, how about answering the question you just failed to answer. You continuously bomb away at how wrong it is to withhold donations from the party, yet you offer no alternatives to make our leaders grow some spine. I'm still waiting for your suggestions. Just as you're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to ask you what your suggestions woud be to make our Democratic leaders/spokespeople tougher....aren't I?

One more thing. You just said, "I think what you're proposing is wrong." Well, FYI, I am not proposing you or anyone else to do anything I do. If I was proposing that, I would have posted, "We should not give..." instead of "I will not give...", and I certainly never posted the former.

Perhaps it's not just me who doesn't get it.

[LittleClarkie]

201. I'm not the one who thinks they need to grow one

Solve your own problem. It's not mine.

That's not what I meant by getting it.

Sorry. My problems all have R's after their names.

[flpoljunkie]

204. "They'll just go back to corporations" Are you serious? They never left.

Dean may be doing a great job speaking out, but he failed to speak out when the Dems sold out to the banks and credit cards companies by failing to filibuster this one-sided big business giveaway.

I would like to think that Dean was really disappointed with the Democratic leadership in Congress for this sellout. It makes his job infinitely harder. Failing to stand up against the bankruptcy was a major missed opportunity for the Democrats to stand tall for working Americans.

This vote cannot be taken back. Dubya has signed the bill into law. The Democrats must now work to introduce legislation to remedy its most unfair provision and remove the millionaires assets protection provisions shamefully left in the bill.

Will they step up to the plate and do what is right for working Americans?

[Triana]

195. I haven't either...for the same reason and have written letters..

..to the DNC and put it in the post-paid envelope telling them I'm not sending money and telling them why!

THEY WON'T EVEN STAND UP TO that mysogenist bastard ROBERTS! THAT does it for me - meaning I STILL am not sending them a nickel until they grow some nads.

I'll support TrueMajority, MoveON, and other efforts monetarily and otherwise because THEY are doing the work the Democratic Party ought to be doing or at least TRYING to do.

[Pewlett Hackard]

202. I agree

money talks, or lack of, in the case of the DNC

[Imagevision]

207. Itotally agree and recommebd.