Kos to declare war on the DLC (DailyKos)

[Teaser]

A few months ago, I wouldn't have liked this idea, but I've just about had it with them. The following is in response to some DLC propaganda calling anti-war types "un-American."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/8/22/41845/1251

Two more weeks, folks, before we take them on, head on.

No calls for a truce will be brooked. The DLC has used those pauses in the past to bide their time between offensives. Appeals to party unity will fall on deaf ears (it's summer of a non-election year, the perfect time to sort out internal disagreements).

We need to make the DLC radioactive. And we will. With everyone's help, we really can. Stay tuned.

[jonnyblitz]

1. the best news today so far!!

RIGHT ON DAILY KOS!! :thumbsup:

[iconoclastic cat]

2. They really are a bunch of elitist losers. They're the democratic wing of

the neocon party.

[Generator]

65. Ha

They might think they are elite-but in my usage-the best of something-far from it. But I love you line "democratic wing of the neocon party." Perfect.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

160. I will never forget the thrill that ran through me when Howard Dean

said those great words _ "I represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party." I almost cried. I don't mind being the opposition party or the minority party as long as we truly represent the ideals of the traditional Democratic party of the working man. The over-bred, over modulated, media-cultured clones of the DLC need to be cast off. Let them become Moderate Republicans and wrestle away that party from the snake-handlers if they choose.

[Boredtodeath]

3. Big stack of BS from Kos

He didn't even want to HEAR the Schumer audio when it was offered to him privately.

Then he turned the DLCers on the person who posted it.

[lateo]

34. Details?

I don't follow...

[unlawflcombatnt]

58. Me neither

What's he saying?

[LittleClarkie]

83. Schumer isn't even DLC

Wait, when did I say that last.

Oh, crap. It's the "THE DLC WILL ELIMINATE PRIMARIES. IIIIEEEEEEEEEE!" topic again, isn't it.

[madfloridian]

163. Who told you that?

Do you have first hand knowledge of that story?

I saw a couple of threads on that, and it was the usual suspects going after the poster. Why would you think Kos did that?

[Name removed]

236. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

237. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtbymark]

4. sick'em

[mattclearing]

5. "We need to make the DLC radioactive. And we will."

Tomorrow's headline today:

Liberal blogger Kos arrested and taken to Guantanamo Bay After Threatening Democratic Leadership Council with Dirty Bomb.

[elehhhhna]

8. They've made themselves radioactive. YAY KOS FOR POINTING IT OUT

Camp Kos will be forming at DLC HQ. We want them to answer: What party do you work for, WHO do you really represent, and where is your honor?

[Mel]

6. I'm in Kos, glad to hear it!

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

188. Likewise!

Will Marshall is a PNACer, and Al From is a degenerate warmonger.

[SpiralHawk]

7. DLC kisses corporate butt

just like the Republicans.

What about the people of the United States of America?

Get a clue, DLC, you are already ineffective on the national scene, and or now you are heading for the Toaster.

[elehhhhna]

9. DLC IS Corporate butt

[OKthatsIT]

244. thank you

....why are these dems in so much denial?

[GOPFighter]

10. Damn Strait!

It's time for a showdown. I'm ready!

[Larkspur]

11. I can hardly wait for this battle.

It's long passed time to drive the DLC into extinction.

[Teaser]

12. I can't say I can "hardly wait."

I had hopes that after the election, the DLC would rethink it's "attack other Democrats" strategy. I don't care if they are right-of-center. That's fine with me. Such Dems exist and organizations of them are going to happen. But their constant demonization of others in *their own party* has driven me over to the "fuck the DLC" party.

[jonnyblitz]

13. their apologists at DU claim it is us demonizing them..

apparently they think we "fringe leftists" are going to just sit and not respond to their insults.

[Teaser]

16. I probably would have been an "apologist"

at one point, by the standards of many. I thought the DLC was corrupt, but reformable. I have revised my opinion on the latter characteristic.

[jonnyblitz]

19. i just get uncomfortable when i hear people supposedly on

our side railing against liberals and "ant- american", anti- war supporters. it sounds too much like the other side. that is total bullshit IMHO. these liberals they so disdain often do most of the grunt work for the party. they/we don't deserve to be sneared at and insulted by the DLC..

[LittleClarkie]

88. I get uncomfortable when people supposedly on our side

rail against fellow Democrats and see the DLC in places where they are not like some kind of weird John Birch Society member seeing Communists behind every tree.

The last one was when Reid and Schumer were talking about the primaries and someone labeled them DLC. Actually, they're not.

[electropop]

32. They need to be educated.

They seem to cling to the outmoded (if it ever was true) that being Republican-Lite will win elections. That's very wrong, especially as America's pendulum starts a swing very far to the left of the insanity we've been suffering through.

[Eloriel]

50. No, no, no. They know perfectly well what they're doing.

Their purpose is to be Repug-Lite, so that corporations won't ever have to say, "I'm sorry" -- or something. Really, they were formed specifically to bring the Dems further to the right.

Two good articles: How the DLC Does It, Robert Dreyfuss, TAP
http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V12/7/dreyfuss-r.html

Behind the DLC Takeover - Democratic Leadership Council
John Nichols
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1295/is_10_64/ai_65952690/print

[Cha]

212. Thanks for those links, Eloriel.

This is an interesting article about the pro-Invasion of Iraq dems from "The Nation" by Ari Berman on "The Strategic Class".

<snip>
"In July 2002, at the first Senate hearing on Iraq, then-Senate Foreign Relations Committee chair Joe Biden pledged his allegiance to Bush's war. Ever since, the blunt-spoken Biden has seized every opportunity to dismiss antiwar critics within his own party, vocally denouncing Bush's handling of the war while doggedly supporting the war effort itself. Biden carried this message into the Kerry campaign as the candidate's closest foreign policy confidant, and a few days after announcing his own intention to run for the presidency in 2008, he gave a major speech at the Brookings Institution in which he criticized rising calls for withdrawal as a "gigantic mistake."



Much more..
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050829&s=berman

[Edgewater_Joe]

14. TO THE BARRICADES!

Down with the DEMOCRATIC LOSERS' COUCIL and all of their head-up-their-own-ass wusses!

And don't worry -- when they're defeated, they'll follow us anyway. That's the kind of wimps they are.

[flpoljunkie]

15. This DLC?

From left to right: U.S. Sen. Tom ("bankruptcy bill enabler") Carper is vice chairman of the DLC; U.S. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton is chair of the DLC's "American Dream Initiative; Al From is founder and CEO of the DLC; Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack is chairman of the DLC; (Not pictured: Bruce Reed is DLC president; Pennsylvania State Representative Jennifer Mann is chair of the DLC's State Legislative Advisory Board (SLAB); Columbus (OH) Mayor Michael Coleman is chairman of the DLC's Local Elected Officials Network.)

Notice the backdrop. Al From wouldn't know "BOLD IDEAS, STRENGTH AND LEADERSHIP" if they bit him in the ass.

[iconoclastic cat]

17. Wow, she's put on weight.

[flpoljunkie]

24. I think it is the cut of the dress, actually.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flpoljunkie]

27. Ugly remark. Let's stick to her politics, shall we?

[iconoclastic cat]

28. Too far? Sorry.

[geek tragedy]

126. Weight jokes about Hillary? Is this the Free Republic? eom

[pocket]

18. GO KOS!

kick some ass!

[Totally Committed]

20. YESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

Man the barricades! The DLC has got to go!

[Lexingtonian]

21. Yeah

I was all for giving them more time...a year or two ago.

In that pic the back ground has other words, but for some reason they read to me as "Same Old pre-'92 Shit".

Our side's Copperheads.

[1932]

22. It's time to replace the corporatocracy with democracy.

[iconoclastic cat]

26. Cleptocracy, more like...

[Pithy Cherub]

23. Ready. Aim. Fire!!!!! - Go Kos!

:bounce:

[Wizard777]

29. Stupid question. What is the DLC? n/t

[sendero]

33. Google...

... "losers" .......... no, I mean "Democratic Leadership Council".

I think they might have started out with good intentions but they are as off the tracks as the Republican leadership of this country at the present time.

[Wizard777]

39. Oh a committee to find the Democrats George Bush.

How about this? If you cannot lead than do not run for office. The purpose of a political party is to select compotent leaders for public office. We don't make leaders. That's what the Army is for.

I wouldn't want to step on their toes. They have tanks, missles, and bazookas. I'm sure they can kick our Ass and a few elephants too. But the first time that they can't THEN we will need a DLC to restore the Army. I can see this headed for being a Damned Liars Club.

[Kolesar]

35. The Democratic Leadership Conference purports to lead the party ...

... to the center to become electable. They attracted a lot of dems in the 1980s and claim Bill Clinton as their success. Personally, I think that Clinton won on his own right and the DLC were insignificant at the time.

[jp4peace]

149. The Common Good will lead the Peace Movement, Forget Party

Party will be the party that supports peace. let them come to us.

We need no party.

If anyone on any side wants to support bringing them home now.

We will embrace them

BRING THEM HOME NOW

[AmBlue]

180. Welcome to DU, jp4peace!!

Glad to have you with us. I was just thinking earlier today that once one of our more reasoned elected leaders decides to speak out against the war, it will open a floodgate of support for him or her.

I'm amazed one of them hasn't done it yet. John Edwards is making noises about it.... We'll see who grabs the golden ring first.

[jp4peace]

242. Thank U. We become the swing vote, let them come to us

When bringing them home becomes the issue, we show the true support for our troops.

WHEN ENOUGH PEOPLE STAND UP FOR PEACE AND THE COMMON GOOD

THIS COUNTRY WILL CHANGE FOR THE BETTER.

ROCKY ANDERSON SHOWED HOW IT IS DONE IN SALT LAKE

A MAYOR CALLS FOR A PROTEST WHILE THE VFW CONVENTION IS IN TOWN

THE LOCAL REPUBLICAN CALLS HIM A SORRY SON OF A B.

ROCKY THEN SAYS WE ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE.

NOW THAT IS MY KIND OF PUBLIC SERVANT.

LET THEM SPEAK TRUTH TO POWER OR LET THEM RETIRE TO THE GOLF COURSE.

[corkhead]

36. "Democratic Leadership Council"

The corporate, republican-lite wing of the Democratic party

[AllyCat]

44. Not a stupid question--Democratic Leadership Council

I didn't know either until someone here explained it to me. They are the likes of Dianne Feinstein, Joe Lieberman, Hilary Clinton, and many, many others in the Senate, House, state guvs, state gov't, and municipal gov't. who claim they are bringing the Democratic Party into a more electable frame by moving the right ("centrist" as they like to say). They are whores to corporations and don't represent the people. Just the big corps. They are more likely than most to vote with the RNC on crucial bills.

Many here feel that their positive effect on national politics has been nil and that in many cases, they have had a negative effect.

Here's their website: http://www.dlc.org/

They like to take credit for some pols who really aren't on their list and want nothing to do with them, but I am not that good at identifying those people. Others here know much, much more about it.

[understandinglife]

30. Just wish he was not waiting two more weeks. Bring-it Markos. Can't ...

... happen soon enough.

We The People are going to take back America from the neoconsters and their corporatista bosses.

Litmus test: tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth - or you do not have the right to serve the Republic.


Peace.

[librechik]

48. nobody's in DC right now

all on vacashe--attacking now would be a waste of time.

one more reason to lie in wait for them and pounce!

[bvar22]

31. Nomination #5

I've been at WAR with the members of the Democratic Party Leadership (DLC) who have been BOUGHT by Corporate Money.
I'm glad KOS has joined the fight to save the Democratic Party!


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

In EVERY case, "Barriers to Trade" and "Restrictions on Corporations" were created to protect something valuable!

[peacetalksforall]

37. As long as right wing cable and network corps invite DLC or DNC to

appear on their programs, we will be in the same situation as the Greens or Independents. No voice on tv.

It will be Biden and Shrum all the time (taking the two of them as representative of all the DLC guests).

[Burried News]

38. What is the DLC's position on Traitorgate?

They want it to quietly go away and virtually said so on the Charlie Rose show a couple of weeks ago - at the very end of the program Charlie maneuvered the 'reassurance' from Tom Vilsack. Transcript here.
http://boadicea.mydd.com/story/2005/8/10/215820/078
Yeah Charlie - you hear him loud and clear on that matter - the fix is in.
"CHARLIE ROSE: Some would say the following: You know, the Democratic Party is focusing on Karl Rove for political reasons, and what they ought to do is spend more time articulating new ideas about the pressing national and international issues.

TOM VILSACK: Well, I would agree that the Democratic Party has to put forward, and Democratic leaders have to put forward, a positive agenda - there`s no question about that -- and there`s plenty of opportunity for us to do that. Unfortunately, there seems to be a fixation in the national media on this particular issue, which, again, takes us away from a discussion and a debate about what this country needs to do in a wide variety ever areas.

Charlie, there are, as you know, serious and significant challenges confronting this nation. This nation needs both parties engaged in a positive debate, and frankly, my party -- everyone knows what we`re against, but it`s now time for us to tell folks what we`re for.

CHARLIE ROSE: And since-- I hear you loud and clear. On that matter, it is assumed by the same group of political pundits that the Republicans were better able to speak to faith and culture than Democrats were. A, do you believe that`s true? And if it`s true, what should the Democrats do in articulating how they feel about faith and cultural values? "

[Burried News]

45. "to tell folks what we`re for." You're for four more years of CONtrol

only this time the bags of cash will have your name on them.
========================================================================

DLC paging Dr Assman. Paging Dr Assman. Shitstorm needed to implement CONtrol Phase II, over. I say again, urgent we have shitstorm immediately to CONfuse the situation.

DLC Kalling Dr Kissmessenger. Paging Dr Kissmessenger. Understanding emerging in the electorate. I say again - understanding emerging in the electorate. Implement Project: bore the shit out of them. Implement: Bore the shit out of them.

Extreme CONcern, Clarity emerging, Clarity emerging - increase truth warp factor. Scotty. Scotty are you there. Shit wake him up I think he was listening to Henry. Snotty. Snotty - wake up lad and put the second Lie-ithium crystal on line.

[Eloriel]

53. What a P.O.S.

If a purported Democrat (even a "DLC Dem") can't do any better than repeat Repug talking points as if they're TRUE, then he ought to be run out of the party -- on a rail, sporting tar and feathers.

I didn't have a very good view of Tom Vilsack before this, but now he'd have to rise from the dead for me to give him a second thought. What a worthless P.O.S.

[Burried News]

66. He said something that undercuts the whole Fitzgerald

investigation and got away with it. I was stunned when I heard this (at 1:00 am where I live) and nobody called him on it.

I am finished with Charlie Rose also. His a shill for somebody - slick as all getout - leave Will, Brooks and Krauthammer in the dust but he works for the same crowd as they do.

There is no way we are going to break this open by quiet discourse.

Markos over at Kos has it.

[mikelewis]

40. Agree 100%

[iconoclastNYC]

41. thank god for the internet.

Who knows if this will be succesful?

But thank god for the Internet that we can even try!

It's high time you and me and kos, and the rest of the netroots take back our party and make it relevant again!

Three cheers for the internet!

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jp4peace]

43. Why wait, What about right now, in Crawford

why wait two weeks.

Also how about the protest in Salt lake City to day.

what are you doing with regard to that protest?

i am not uptodate so i don't know, but i would love to learn.

The DLC matters no more than any other party, or leadership.

This is the American People standing up right now.

In TExas and in Salt Lake City.

[understandinglife]

54. Welcome to DU. Here's a petition inspired by you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4423829&mesg_id=4423829


Peace.

[jp4peace]

249. Indoor Austin might be something to consider

If the right venue could be found. Something is needed in the central Texas area. The heat is far to risky for anyone over 65.

107 today on the sign I went by.

Austin is made for positive uplifting peaceful movements.

My only point is this. The Swing Vote will carry the power.

Let them all come to us.

They simply look like fools for waiting. The longer they wait, the bigger mistake they make.

Regardless, left, right, whatever.

[Eloriel]

56. We can do both, actually

stand up for peace AND topple the DLC.

Welcome to DU!

You're quite wrong about the DLC, tho, and here are two articles that begin to explain it:

How the DLC Does It, Robert Dreyfuss, TAP
http://www.prospect.org/print-friendly/print/V12/7/dreyfuss-r.html

Behind the DLC Takeover - Democratic Leadership Council
John Nichols
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1295/is_10_64/ai_65952690/print

[hiley]

46. I am so ready for this battle!

dlc is gop

[librechik]

47. I'm with Kos! Unity now!

with the grassroots, not the Washington elite

[autorank]

49. Finally, someting to like about what they're doing. "A+" for KOS!!!

There is hope. All we need is to get them to take the Red Pill and realize the election fraud is part and parcel of the land scape here.

Great KOS, we love it!

[understandinglife]

51. "and realize the election fraud is part and parcel of the land scape"

Precisely.

Just wish Markos would fly to Crawford and launch it today, tomorrow, Wed .... !!

What do you think about starting a DU petition to Markos to do just that - go to Crawford this week and launch the endeavor.


Peace.

[autorank]

52. hey there, ahoy. You start it, i'll sign it...

...can we ask him to stay there? ;)

[understandinglife]

55. Howdie. Done!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4423829&mesg_id=4423829


Peace.

[Writer]

57. And the GOP watches with glee while we self-destruct. n/t

[Q]

63. Doing nothing about the DLC would be self-destructive...

...fighting against their corporate agenda is very constructive.

The GOP doesn't care about us. They already HAVE everything they've always wanted...thanks in no small part to the DLC.

[enough already]

82. The DLC has all but killed us

Eliminating this cancer will save us.

[ulysses]

147. they've been doing that

since 1985.

[Cha]

213. The gop has their own

problems and need to clean up their filthy house.

There are certain moderate republicans who I'm sure would love to get the crazedwingedzealots out of their beloved party.

[cascadiance]

59. I wonder if we could start denouncing them in local Dem meetings...

Perhaps if we work hard here on a "constructive" text to a resolution that many local Dem groups can pass that would denounce the DLC, and declare that we follow the DNC and not the DLC. If enough of these get passed nationwide, perhaps that would send a message to the DLC that they better make some fundamental changes or get off of the ship! We don't want to sink with them any more!

Probably the key is to get some strong verbage with some teeth in it, but yet not overly emotional and one-sided so that we can get a lot of folks to support it. Perhaps something to the effect that we the Democratic Party want to represent people of all races, creeds, sexes, and beliefs but that we want to make sure that we have a party that represents people equally, and not have it's voice corrupted by corporate or other well-heeled special interests. We see the DLC as being just such an influence and would like to publicly declare we don't respect their wishes or influence as representative of what the members of the Democratic Party want.

[PassingFair]

167. I've been in the advance guard on this, cali!

Been bitchin about the DLC cutting the grassroots off at the knees for a long time, and always getting agreement.
Maybe we need to start writing to our committee peeps like we did during the chairmanship selection.
The rank and file are ready.

[unlawflcombatnt]

60. OUTSOURCE the DLC to the Republican Party

We should "outsource" the DLC and their corporatocratic free trade positions to a party that can truly appreciate them -- like the Republican Party.

[leanin_green]

165. Are you kidding? That's where they came from in the first place!

Infiltrators and under-miners of Democracy.

[Raster]

61. Go Kos, Go!!! We need a radical departure from the DLC's

"centrist" policies. The centrist bullshit just about makes me hurl. The last thing we need are two repuklican parties.

[Sanity Claws]

62. Who's in the DLC?

Can anyone tell me who is in the DLC? Or refer me to a site where I could see a list of who's on it?

[Burried News]

68. Google DLC Leadership

[spaniard]

71. Kerry, Edwards, Clinton

...among others.

DLC friendlies include strategists James Carville and Paul Begala, writer Joe Conason, blogger Joshua Micah Marshall, AAR talent Al Franken, etc.

[LittleClarkie]

166. Eh, I see both Kerry and Edwards distancing themselves

I think they used the organization of the DLC for fundraising and such. But neither strikes me as hardcore DLC.

[wyldwolf]

245. Really? How do you see that?

[tavalon]

64. I've been meaning to join up there

at Kos, and it is definitely time. I'm so up for excising the DLC.

[fooj]

69. It's a great place to be. Come on over!

Peace.

[Robbie Michaels]

67. I'm Ready

...to throw down with the DLC RIGHT NOW!!!

These jackasses need to be expelled from the Democratic Party, or at least shipped to the GOP where they belong. They have no business leading us, and do not have our best interests in mind when they take a stand on something.

Just remember how they fought for us when it was time to vote on the bankruptcy bill and other issues.

[myrna minx]

70. If we don't take back our party now, we'll never get it back.

Go KOS!!

[Mass]

72. So I imagine kos is going to stop supporting Spitzer as NY governor.

May be Weld is a better alternative after all.

Or let say we run somebody against Cleland in GA if he runs.

This is the guy who is supporting Casey in PA. This guy cant even be logical with himself.

[PittLib]

115. Prove that he is supporting Casey ...

I've seen numerous positive mentions of Pennacchio. I'd like to see on what you are basing this claim.

[Mass]

117. I searched both Casey and Pennachio on stories by kos

There are a few stories concerning Casey, most of them to tell people to get over the fact that he is prolife or to comment results. There is also a story congratulating Teresa Heinz to campaign for Casey.

I could not find one story about Pennachio.

I may be wrong, but I dont think so. kos has decided to support anybody who can win as long as their name is not in the DLC list.

[PittLib]

120. I'll have to take a look ...

I don't read regularly, but have come across several posts there that were critical of Casey.

[Mass]

122. I am talking about post written by kos specifically

You will find plenty of diaries that are critical of Casey, but I could not find anything written BY kos. That is my point.

[Eloriel]

118. Good Dems can either wake up and realize the DLC is passee

plus bad for the party AND the nation, or they're not good Dems and we can (and must) do better.

It's that simple. Maybe some of them are deluded. Maybe some of them were seduced by the siren song, the money, the awesome power-brokering and cachet and charisma and allure of the Clintons, and that whole sphere of influence. But they too can wake up and see, thanks to Gov. Dean's leadership, that a grassroots-financed Democratic Party CAN happen, IS happening, and both CAN and will free us from excessive corporate influence (aka: fascism), freeing our politicians, newly unbidden and unbought, to work for -- and be accountable to -- The People again.

What a happy day that will be.

Down with the DLC!!

[Mass]

127. So, who do you propose against Spitzer in a primary

and have you said that to Dean, who is certainly supporting Spitzer as far as I know.

But of course, may be it is better to support right-winger like Casey who is not DLC.

I have huge problem with From, Reed, or even Clinton (both), but I will never condemn somebody because he appears in a list, if his actions do not bother me.

May be it is what you think, but in this case remember, until he stopped being governor, Dean was in the DLC list. He stopped being there because the DLC only keeps lists of people that hold elected positions. I imagine that he would not think about being DLC nowadays, but less than 4 years ago, he was there.

Now, if kos wants to go after the people who have the leadership of the DLC, I have no issue. But a blind vendetta is just counterproductive, particularly when you support prolifer like Casey or Reid.

[Cha]

215. Casey's against the Iraqi Slaughter,

ain't he?

[SaveElmer]

73. It's all Bulls**t inside politics

No one in this country gives a rats ass about the DLC or internal wars among Democrats. This is all inside baseball that means nothing to the average person. I'd love to see a poll of how many Democrats have even heard of the DLC, let alone the country at large.

Many here moan about the DLC like they are the coming of the anti-christ, yet if one of their members gets the nomination we will all be behind that person come 2008...just as we were in 2004!!!

It's really hard to get worked up about what the DLC says or does when we have THAT MAN in the White House.

[Behind the Aegis]

86. I agree with you!

"It's really hard to get worked up about what the DLC says or does when we have THAT MAN in the White House."

Why are we waging "war" on one another?! We need to think....the enemy of my enemy is my friend. First, we unify (even if just a front), displace the current regime...THEN we can wage war on one another. If we do it now, the rethugs don't have to do anything to defeat us...we do it for them!

[SaveElmer]

95. And you know what?

There won't be an internal war after a Democrat is elected...because contrary to what many here would have you believe, the most liberal Democrat and the most hardcore DLC member probably agree on 85% of the issues. Most such as Kerry and Clinton have solid progressive credentials as far as I'm concerned

[Eloriel]

121. How naive

and seductive, of course.

(It's so interesting to see the form of arguments being used to dissuade people from caring about the DLC. Just fascinating. This thread could be a whole workshop, atually.)

Having THAT MAN in the White House necessitates a far more robust opposition party than is possible when you've got a pro-Repug, pro-Bush DLC controlling (or trying to control) party policy and positions. If people genuinely ARE concerned about THAT MAN, then they need to also be genuinely concerned about a THAT MAN-supporting DLC.

[Al-CIAda]

192. Eloriel -I got that vibe as well. Go back to sleep everyone. nt

[Raksha]

177. It is hurting the average person...

...whether they have ever heard of the DLC or not. Average people don't need to be aware of the DLC to be affected by it, and in ways that impact their lives directly.

Re >>No one in this country gives a rats ass about the DLC or internal wars among Democrats. This is all inside baseball that means nothing to the average person. I'd love to see a poll of how many Democrats have even heard of the DLC, let alone the country at large.<<

It is hurting them by depriving them of any real choice in the voting booth, and by refusing to fight for their vote when it gets stolen. It is hurting them by aiding and abetting the outsourcing of American jobs and by trying to stifle their voice when a grassroots anti-war movement suddenly manifests the TRUE will of the people in regard to the Iraq war.

It's that last item that was probably the last staw for Kos. The fact that the DLC not only won't support the Camp Casey phenomenon but bad-mouths it and tries to discourage other Democrats from supporting it is really over the top. It reveals them for the warmongering corporate whores they are.

[mmonk]

248. I won't be behind that nomination

This world dominance game needs to end before the rest of the world ends it for us.

[spaniard]

74. What, again? Yawn...

Let's see... KOS... who was paid by Dean to blog nice things about him but couldn't deliver the nomination for him... thinks he can marginalize Bill and Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, John Kerry, and other popular elected officials?

KOS who rank and file Democrats know even less about than the DLC?

I can see it now - the KOSians wage an offensive against the DLC.

Democrats on the street ask (as some in this thread have) "Just who are the DLC?"

They get their answer: Bill Clinton.

Game over.

[wyldwolf]

75. Let's say the KOS's Liberal Liberation Army mobilizes for '06...

... and heads into the States...

Deleware, where DLC member Tom Carper has a 66% approval rating in his state. KOS is going to convince folks to dump Carper?

Moving on to NY, where DLC member Hillary Clinton enjoys a 61% approval rating. Think KOS is going to unseat Hillary?

The war moves into North Dakota where DLC'er Senator Kent Conrad clings desperately to a mere 69% approval rating. Oops! The DLC could be in trouble!

The battle spreads to California where Dianne Feinstein looks weak... with just a 54% approval rating. KOS has a plan! He'll run a "real" Democrat against Feinstein like... like... who in CA could would run against her? A KOSian pipes up: Let's run a GREEN! (yeah, great idea!)

Surely the folks in Nebraska are ready to dump Ben Nelson... he only has a .... oops... 63% approval. Maybe next time!

OK, but the REAL target is Lieberman! Let's get him! The people in the great state of CT have had enough of him! Look at his approval... it's (gulp!) 68%!

[WildEyedLiberal]

76. Another day, another load of steaming bullshit from Kos n/t

[wyldwolf]

77. I wonder who's paying him?

[WildEyedLiberal]

78. I've always wondered if he's still on a certain payroll...

[spaniard]

81. nah, Dean isn't paying him now. But KOS's coffers must be empty...

I'm sure his donations rise when he saber rattles.

[WildEyedLiberal]

84. Oh I'm sure

He's got a devoted little army of bots over there who would lay down and die for him. I know because I dated one last year :puke:

Welcome to DU btw...

[madfloridian]

162. Actually he does not ask for donations.

You can donate or not. If you donate, you can hide the ads and a few other perks. He has other jobs, but if he works for a candidate he discloses. He disclosed he works with Rosenberg's group.

Actually did you know he was one of the original Draft Clark folks? So what's the fuss.

If they disclose, I am fine. I think bloggers should on both sides.

[madfloridian]

157. Here the info you want.

Kos and Trippi are signed up with Simon Rosenberg and his new NPI media, which I believe is partly allied with The Democracy Alliance. Involved are the usual like Rob Stein, Andy Rappaport, and more.

They are trying to counter the right wing noise machine. David Brock works with them as well.

They have disclosed. Jerome has disclosed that he is doing web work for Mark Warner's campaign. Some are not happy, but I think that is his business if he connects with the DLC. I am glad he disclosed.

Other than the fact that Howard Dean was long time friends with Rob Stein, and I believe Rappaport gave to him during the campaign....Dean is not involved, nor can he be.

Any more questions?

[WildEyedLiberal]

205. Just one...

WTF is Kos doing, when Bush is a sitting target, deciding to attack Dems? Yeah, lots of DLCers suck. So what? Bush has 36% approval and is looking more an asshole by the day as he ignored Cindy Sheehan; the Fitzgerald investigation into Rove/Plame is about to explode; Iraq's a shithole; and what does Kos do? Take advantage of the right's obvious chinks in the armor? Oh hell no, he attacks Democrats. What a winning strategy.

[madfloridian]

219. Maybe because they are not acting like they are?

Why are you mad at me for what Kos is doing? I like some things he does, others I don't. Getting mad at me is counter-productive.

Actually I think it is time to fight a group which is taking us where we do not need to go. Time to decide who is going to have a say. They don't want us to have one, though I am willing for them to have a say.

They want it their way or the highway, and maybe that is why.

[WildEyedLiberal]

224. I'm not mad at you

I don't think you speak for Kos. I just think Kos is full of BS on most things, including this. Bush is a bigger threat than the DLC. We liberals need to focus like a laser beam on making these scandals stick to him. After that's done, THEN we can have the group fight about the message of the party.

[madfloridian]

228. I disagree.

I think when Hillary and the others made such an obvious stand with the DLC, and she was "appointed" to set the agenda by traveling the country to find the American Dream Initiative....I think it sent a message.

I think we can work with Dean at the DNC or just assume the DLC has our best interests at heart. I don't think they do.

[SaveElmer]

79. Excellent!!!

You hit the nail on the head. No one in this country but political junkies gives a rats ass about the DLC or Kos or the "war" between them. Being a political junkie, I am not at all disturbed by the DLC as they are well within the Democratic mainstream, and I love Kos because...well...I love a good read bashing Republicans.

But to get worked up over the DLC when we have Bush on the ropes is really hard!!!

[wyldwolf]

85. Like Spaniard wrote above...look who KOS has to convince us is bad

First, average Dem on the street will have to be convinced that Bill Clinton, John Kerry, John Edwards are "bad."

Then, with a straight face, KOSians and their Liberal Liberation Army will tell many average Dem on the street not to trust their elected Dem senators and representatives and governors.

Then, on their black list, names will apear like strategists James Carville and Paul Begala, writer Joe Conason, blogger Joshua Micah Marshall, AAR talent Al Franken, etc.

Deflated and demoralized, the KOSian Liberal Liberation Army grinds their teeth when they see who the leading contenders for '08 are:

Five of the top seven Democratic choices for the nominee in 2008 are DLC. Rounding out the top seven is one guy often "accused" by the left of being DLC and another guy often accused by the left of being a Republican (and who got one of his major campaign 2004 platforms from the DLC.)

[SaveElmer]

92. Exactly right...and...

If I'm not mistaken Kos is supporting Casey in Pennsylvania. Guess he will have to wage war on himself. I consider myself a Liberal so it pains me to say it, but one of our worst failings is the massive circular firing squad we manage to form just when we are on the verge of victory!!! Jeez, Bush is at 36% approval in the polls...so naturally our reaction is not to finish the job by keeping up the pressure...no..it is to attack our fellow Democrats, most of whom are very popular.

BTW: Who are the seven on your list?

Clinton
Edwards
Kerry
Richardson
Vilsack
Biden
Warner

[wyldwolf]

96. According to Polling Report:

Hillary Rodham Clinton
John Kerry
John Edwards
Joe Biden
Wesley Clark
Bill Richardson
Evan Bayh

... #8...

Mark Warner

[SaveElmer]

99. Yep...no problem supporting any of them

Though I am pushin for Hillary!

[Elidor]

137. Ahem...

The DLC initiated the attack, not the left. You can blame them for the attack on fellow democrats. Or perhaps you, like them, consider the anti-war left to be un-American and, by extension, not true democrats.

I'm curious to know: seeing as several of you on this thread are such ardent supporters of the DLC, what in particular attracts you to them? Is it their business friendly legislation? Socially moderate views? Their votes in favor of the Iraq War Resolution? What is it about them that earns your support?

[Placebo]

106. you, wyldwolf...

are one of the few people in this thread making any sense

you are wise

:thumbsup:

[wyldwolf]

108. but I'm a "fucking cancer in the party."

oh, and a traitor.

[SaveElmer]

109. And a Republican Corporatist...

Who is a secret mole sent in by Bush to destroy the pary!!!

[wyldwolf]

110. and I'm pissed 'cause no one has paid me yet!

[Placebo]

111. a damn dirty repuke-lite appeaser!

:P

[madfloridian]

161. Some are more open to Kossian warfare than others.

All DLC are not equal. Actually some of the ones you mentioned are pretty good in my book, some are tools.

I have seen a distinct change in AL Franken's show lately, and I am concerned it is because he is going to run for senate. He does have a lot of righty types on, you know.

I like him, but I see the change.

[spaniard]

80. the House seats look even LESS vulnerable

[Larkspur]

87. Lieberman has more support from CT Repukes than CT Dems

and this CT Dem was not polled. Many Dems in my neck of CT HATE Lieberman and I betcha they were not polled either.

[wyldwolf]

89. yeah, sure

[spaniard]

91. The "I wasn't polled so the poll can't be right" defense.

[Mass]

94. False - His support is slightly higher for Dems

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=e3395b9e-1115-482e-a119-3651ccb2edca

Dems 71 %
Rep 67 %
Ind 67 %

Even among liberals, his support is 66 %.

This is suprising for me, but this is the result of the SUSA poll

[wyldwolf]

97. well, then, that poll just must be wrong! It has to be!

:sarcasm:

[SaveElmer]

98. Just proves no one in the country give two sh*ts about inside baseball

I wonder how many of those Democrats even know who the DLC is?

[LoZoccolo]

203. Another WINNER from wyldwolf!

Speaking the hard facts to the sloganizers. :thumbsup:

I like how people frame their anti-DLC arguments as DLC vs. "we the people" when the DLC politicians are so popular.

[BlueJac]

90. It's about time!

[Placebo]

93. ooooh, I'm shaking in my little space boots

Bring it on Daily Fuckin' Kos. The DLC is here to stay. It was here long before you and it will be here long after.

Let the war begin.

[wyldwolf]

100. Give ME the MX 280 Atomic Modulator!

I need it to blow up the DLC!

[spaniard]

101. LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!

:rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[SaveElmer]

102. Beautious...but be careful...because

You will make them very angry...very angry indeed!!!

[spaniard]

103. bwa ha ahaha hahahahahaha!

[wyldwolf]

104. classic!

[LittleClarkie]

105. Okay, much as I disagree with most of what Kos stands for

THAT was funny as hell!

[Placebo]

107. ...

¡¡¡ :rofl: !!!

[ulysses]

150. "it was here long before you"

The DLC was founded in 1985. I was born in 1968. :)

*Shake* those little fists!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

197. Tear out page 72.

Glue in new page Delta 72-015.

Better now?

[Capn Sunshine]

185. And here I though hubris was limited to neocons

:nuke:

[Cha]

217. No, it's alive and

fucking well right here in River City.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Independent_Liberal]

113. Kick!

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mass]

119. Actually this is the pb with kos, he does not care what they stand for

He supports Casey, supported Langevin though he is prolife.

Personnally, I care about the issues and this type of attacks on Democrats for pure powerfight is disgusting.

[kerrygoddess]

123. Second that...

First of all I think this will be a popcorn event, pull up a chair and have a laugh. I mean come on, KOS is not the Wizard, the all powerful. He's going to take on the DLC. Right.

Sorry but we all need to work together in the Big Tent. This is disgusting. Thanks Mass.

[jonnyblitz]

133. but you have no problem with the DLC writing nasty stuff

about liberals and "ant- american, anti- war activists?? that is hardly condusive to a "big tent" and THAT is DISGUSTING. :puke:

the DLC can go to hell.

[kerrygoddess]

209. Honestly... everyone needs to grow up!

The DLC, the far-left, everyone or we can throw the damned Democratic party out with the friggin trash.

[PittLib]

125. Okay ...?

This is one person that you choose to attack while ignoring the fact that the DLC's Marshall is calling out members of its own party. Apparently we can't suggest pulling out without being "un-American" or "fringe". I think that is a much bigger issue than what some guy with a website thinks.

[Mass]

132. I cant stand Marshall., Reed or FRom

but I cant stand kos either, particularly when there are many DLCers that I like, including people like Cleland or Dorgan and Spitzer.

Both Marshall and kos are as stupid and destructive as the other. And pro-life is an important issue, sorry.

[PittLib]

135. I'm really confused now ...

Marshall is a talking head for the DLC. DLC supports centrist views. Yes, abortion (and all it entails) issues are HUGELY important - which is why I go nuts everytime a so-called progressive touts Casey (I live in PA). I'm not saying that you need like Kos (again, I don't care) - but don't ignore the point. Just because he is inconsistent (what I understand you to be saying) doesn't automatically negate the argument he is making.

[kerrygoddess]

210. The issue here I think

Is that not all DLC'ers are bad. Sometimes they vote for things we don't agreee with, but so do all Dems.

They have their place in the Democratic as much as we do, we don't have to agree on everything and yes, we can get ticked and irrate when they say things about us we don't like, but they attract MODERATE Democrats who quite frankly think that everyone on the internet playing activist is looney tunes.

If all the moderate Dems thought it was okay to protest the war, don't you think there would be millions of people in the streets?

I don't think what Marshall said was right or fair, but realistically I don't believe Kos has a chance in hell to take down the DLC.

[jonnyblitz]

141. anti- choice is anti-woman and has no business in the DEM party

it is religion based bullshit. a bit off-topic and just my opinion....:shrug:

[Mass]

151. I agree with you.

[Raksha]

195. I get enough of that crap from the other side....

Re >>Apparently we can't suggest pulling out without being "un-American" or "fringe". I think that is a much bigger issue than what some guy with a website thinks.<<

I don't need it from "my" side too! I mean being called "un-American" because I think we should pull out of Iraq ASAP. That tells me everything I need to know about the DLC and which side they actually work for.

Are some DLC people better than others? Absolutely! But some Republicans are better than others too. Just because I'd vote for Hagel over Santorum in a minute doesn't mean I want to vote for either one of 'em. I'd love to have the option of voting for a real Democrat for a change.

[democracyindanger]

134. Attacks on Democrats?

You mean like:

"By dwelling obsessively on U.S. misdeeds while ignoring the far more heinous crimes of what is quite possibly the most barbaric insurgency in modern times, anti-war critics betray an anti-American bias that undercuts their credibility."

"Conversely, the military is not always held in high esteem in what might be called the European wing of the Democratic party -- secular liberal elites in the deep-blue Northeast and West Coast."

"Democrats need to be choosier about the political company they keep, distancing themselves from the pacifist and anti-American fringe."

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253472&kaid=124&subid=307

So if you're against the war, you're anti-American. If you want the troops home now, you're anti-American. And 'European' is a valid slur to use against the 'secular liberal elites.'

I've always believed in the Big Tent philosophy. I've never had much of a problem with the DLC, figured that they had as much right as anyone to call themselves Democrats. Maybe a little too conservative for my tastes, but then I'm a little too conservative for some Democrats' tastes.

But anti-American? Secular liberal elite? I expect that sort of name-calling from Republicans, but from fellow Democrats?

They are right about one thing. Democrats definitely need to be choosier about the company we keep.

[PittLib]

136. Exactly...

this is my point. Kos did not start the fight ... it seems that the DLC did.

[democracyindanger]

140. Yep.

We're on the same page. The DLC picked this fight.

[jonnyblitz]

138. they use the same talking points and slurs as the right

against us evil libruls.

[democracyindanger]

143. That's the most disturbing thing.

I used to laugh off descriptions of the DLC as closet Republicans. It's not so funny anymore.

But what do I know? I'm an anti-American, West Coast liberal elite Europe-lover.

[Mass]

142. Absolutely agree with you..

As I said earlier, I cant stand them either (meaning Reed, From, and Marshall).

This said, i like to judge men, not organizations, and there are people in the DLC list that have done a lot of good things (Spitzer for one).

So excommunications en masse will never be my thing. I prefer a fight at a more local level (find somebody to run against Lieberman for example).

[Kipepeo]

179. Some more choice DLC quotes

"We've got to repudiate, you know, the most strident and insulting anti-American voices out there sometimes on our party's left... We can't have our party identified by Michael Moore and Hollywood as our cultural values." —Al From, CEO of the DLC

"You know, let's let Hollywood and the Cannes Film Festival fawn all over Michael Moore. We ought to make it pretty clear that he sure doesn't speak for us when it comes to standing up for our country." —Will Marshall, President of the Progressive Policy Institute, the think-tank of the DLC

"The point we've made over and over again and continue to make, we cannot win this election just by depending on people who don't like George Bush...We've got to be able to persuade people to support us. That's still the challenge in front of Dean. He needs to lay out a thoughtful agenda to get people to support him. It's not enough to just tap the activist anger against George Bush." - Al From, CEO of the DLC

"You've got to reject Michael Moore and the MoveOn crowd," DLC CEO Al From said in an interview about how the Democratic Party should rebuild after 2004. From argued that the anti-war Moore and MoveOn have hurt the party on national security, the issue which he says the party needs to make "central to our cause." Rank-and-file Democrats "are more like us than MoveOn," which From called a group of "elites, people who sit in their basements all the time and play on their computers."

^ note he's condemning the moveon *crowd*

[Al-CIAda]

194. Yes, complete bullshit and fabrication you expect from the right-wing. nt

[ProudDad]

230. Piece of Shit

this asshole Will Marshal.

He'd better pray that the "pacifist" wing of the human race eventually wins or his fuckin' grandchildren won't have a life worth living!!!

What a pompous prick!

[LittleClarkie]

168. Oddly inconsistent, isn't he

Pissed at Kerry on behalf of the gay constituents. Pissing on the women constituents for daring not to like Casey, since after all he could win.

He often has good insights. But he also often strikes me as an immature asshat who can't forget the primary wars. He has a certain narrowmindedness that he needs to grow out of.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

128. they look down on people like they are stupid..

'oh nobody has heard about the DLC but us.."

somebody posted last week that KOS was the most visited site for progressives online and DU was second..so the online progressive communitity will see all of this..

[PittLib]

129. I don't understand the point of mocking Kos...

(specifically)or Americans (in general)- when it is members of the DLC who are trying to excise members of the Democratic Party. Petty, IMHO. I don't advocate bashing every single member (though I am wary of many) but I have zero appreciation for the language that Marshall chose.

[democracyindanger]

159. What I don't get

is the outright joy in the stupidity of it.

They can mock dKos all they want, but the fact that elected Dems like Reid, Conyers, Boxer, Slaughter, prominent candidates like Paul Hackett and figures like Cindy Sheehan post with varying degrees of regularity on dKos make a pretty solid case for his and the site's influence.

[wyldwolf]

130. okay, Eloriel... say you're KOS

..and you're faced with the reality of posts 71 and 75.

How do you "defeat the DLC" without giving the seats to the GOP?

[LittleClarkie]

131. Dissenting opinions are a bitch

aren't they.

[PittLib]

139. That goes both ways ... nt

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skinner]

145. Upon review, I have unlocked this thread.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

[democracyindanger]

146. Hear, hear.

[Q]

148. Thank you...

...and your good sense of fair play.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

152. Where's a locksmith when you need one?

Never mind. :thumbsup:

If the DLC isn't fair discussion, I don't know what is.

[LittleClarkie]

154. Rat farts

I bow to your wisdom and the fact that it's your website, sir.

No big fan of the DLC, just thinking folks are getting somewhat obsessed, is all. Like Communists and the John Birch Society, seeingthem behind every tree.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

155. Not Communists.

Industrialists.

[LittleClarkie]

156. Behind every tree

whether they're there or not.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

158. Huh?

They're there.

Are you really denying their influence on "Democratic policy" in the last 13 years?

[LittleClarkie]

170. No I'm not

But a recent comment from Schumer re: primaries resulted in a "No Primaries, says the DLC" type rant. Even though the house party where the comment was made by Schumer was not a DLC event, and Schumer ain't DLC, the rant was about the DLC. So even when the issue isn't about them, some folks will MAKE it about them. So that's what I mean about seeing them behind every tree. Just seems overblown to me, as if some folks are fairly obsessed.

[PittLib]

176. Neither here nor there in the context of this post ...

but since you bring it up ... Schumer's comments would have made sense had he been DLC. The fact that he is not should raise flags. The rant might have been erroneous, but the point remains the same - there is a flagrant attempt to undermine the primary in order to save money for the GE. It is supressive, presumptious and insulting to the Pennsylvania electorate ... whether they are aware of it or not. While these actions are not illegal, there are those of us who believe that it is wrong and that it goes against the very tenets of democracy. Perhaps you wouldn't mind compromise by having strategists select your candidate, but some of us would prefer equal access to choose for ourselves.

[LittleClarkie]

178. Sounds like something that goes on anyway

Witness the Casey race. The Dem Party can choose to support whom they like.

Some want us to be tough like the Republicans. They often use such tactics to place the person most likely to win in each race, supporting some and not supporting others.

What if it means we win as opposed to losing? What then. If Santorum is knocked out, will people still be bitching about Casey?

[PittLib]

181. Um, yeah I think people will still be "bitching" about him ...

especially those who voted for him, because they'll see just what they voted for vs. the optimistic speculation on how he will or will not vote. Why, do you think people will give him a free pass everytime he votes conservatively by continuing with the "well, he ain't Santorum" notion? ... for his entire term?

On edit: I will bet $$$ that he'll be decried as a spineless DINO within a year, and not by me ... but by many progressives.

[LittleClarkie]

182. I don't know

depends on how fast the memory of ol' Butt Slime lingers I reckon. I still tend to think the worst Dem is better than the best Repub.

I guess I just want more "D's".

[PittLib]

183. I want more "D's", too but not ones that will hurt us ...

(me, progressives)in the long run. It is empty.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

190. If only *insert despicable historical figure here* had a D in front of

his/her name.


:eyes:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

164. I can support my premise.

Can you?

[LittleClarkie]

172. First find out what I'm saying

see my reply under your other nearby post. It's seeing them where they are not that gets to me. Even when an event has nothing to do with the DLC, folks will decry that the DLC is trying to do this and that. The word is becoming synonymous with, "a move within the party that is too conservative for my taste", related to the DLC or not.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

174. I can accept that.

What I can't accept is the notion that the Party is big enough to accept those opposed to the very principles of the party.

I understand what you're saying, though. The slippery slope and all that. But the DLC is no slippery slope. It's a cliff.

[Guaranteed]

214. LC-

I love ya, but they're there.

They're there BIG time.

[LittleClarkie]

216. When did Reid and Schumer join, dude?

I'm talking about threads that had to do with those guys, that got labeled DLC shenanigans. They might be getting politically heavy handed in places like Pennsylvania, but I dunno if I'd sign them up for the New Democrat Network just yet.

And how come nobody ever goes after either one of them for their IWR vote. Riddle me that, Batman.

[Guaranteed]

218. Their IWR votes are probably the biggest reason they would get labeled

DLC. It's their weakness.

Schumer is Clinton's partner/lapdog. He's a NY Senator with massive corporate contributions. And Reid has always had problems, while being a fighter, with not being all that progressive.

[LittleClarkie]

220. But at least a thread can be posted about them

without it coming up even once. Kerry...not so much.

Eh. I dunno. I just joined the damn party. I feel like I'm trying to crazy glue several puddy tats back together who don't wanna go.

Maybe it's my deodorant, eh?

[Guaranteed]

222. I'm trying to split the difference, myself.

We need a spine and common sense. That's basically it.

[LittleClarkie]

223. Anybody looking good to you at this point

re: Spine and Sense?

[Guaranteed]

225. Gore and Clark.

Hackett and Dean.

Those are the basic four. Dean can't run for President, and really neither can Hackett. Hackett should own DeWine's Senate seat, though.

It's a Gore/Clark ticket in 2008 if it doesn't get fucked up by idiots.

[LittleClarkie]

226. I could more than live with that

Ya think there's chance on my guy getting a cabinet seat in a Gore/Clark White House, though? ;)

[Guaranteed]

227. Kerry? Aren't you a Clark

supporter? I mean...LittleClarkie?

Kerry's probably happy with being a Senator. He'd need to find some kind of replacement before being a cabinet member...

I could DEFINITELY see him being Secretary of State, though. I think he would be outstanding in that regard.

[LittleClarkie]

229. Dude, didn't you ever hear my tale of woe?

Started out a Clarkie, only because he said "The president doesn't have a blank check dated 9/11 with which to wage war" or something close. I'd had that same thought more than once, phrased in almost that same way.

I was still semi-sheeple then, but I semi-sorta rooted for Clark because of that one remark. That was my whole reason for attaching myself to him.

After he lost, I sorta sulked for a while. I had no interest whatsoever in "Ol' Styrofoam Personality" ie Kerry. But then I started finding stories on the net about Guantanamo Bay and the detainees who had NO due process whatsoever. I feared for those people all the way back in March of 2004. I was right too, it turns out. Didn't know it then.

That's what woke up this sheeple. I got a Real Deal round sign for my window, and started looking into this Kerry person so I could campaign for him.

I ended up falling in love with the guy. Whatcha gonna do. I think some of the emotionalism has to do with him reminding me of my deceased dad. Dad liked Clark too. I dunno what dad woulda thought of Kerry, but they're both Navy. And the campaign gave me something to do besides grieve.

I once referred to myself on the Republicans for Kerry yahoo group as a "little Clarkie for Kerry". They liked that so it stuck. And I ended up using it for here. But I'm now much more Kerrycrat than Clarkie. Not that I won't defend the ol' General when he needs it. But then I'll do that for Dean or Dennis or anyone else who's being attacked unfairly. I try to be a "unity gal".

Ended up joining the party as soon as my taxes came in this last year. First time ever. Before that, I just vaguely voted Dem because my parents were Dems, albeit Conservative Southern ones. My mom loved Bill Clinton. She only got to see one year of him being prez though.

[AtomicKitten]

169. I agree.

The DLC will be as large as they are afforded credence. Nobody gives a crap if they issue statements. It's a free country (let me check my watch, yep, it's still free). Paul Hackett's campaign proved the grassroots organizations in this country rock! I did phone bank work for him here in California, as did people all over the country. We the people are powerful and there's really not a lot of point wasting energy on the DLC. We have the power. We have the money. They are a think tank that issues statements. BFD.

I heard Kos on Air America talk about his secret battle plan to sink the DLC, and it sounded just a tad obsessive. I realize people are po'd, thinking this candidate or that is a puppet of the DLC, but their power is only in how much we given them in our minds. The power has shifted in the Dem Party to the people. Dr. Dean is making sure the primaries reflect the will of ALL the Dems, not just a handful.

I wouldn't waste my time getting my kickers in a twist over the DLC, but if it floats your boat, have at.

[Q]

153. This debate isn't about the DLC as much as it is the future of the party..

Do we want a 'party of the people' or a party that caters to corporations and writes legislation for them to the detriment of the majority of Americans?

All we want is a party that represents the majority of Democrats...not a small group of corporate lobbyists.

[Cha]

221. That's what it boils down to..so

Simple..yet very hard for some to comprehend.

[PittLib]

171. I would like you all to read the article in its entirety ...

then comment.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253472&kaid=124&subid=307

This is what are really talking about ... not our like/dislike, trust/mistrust of Kos. I read it, and I can't make sense of it. It seems to be a Republican strategy. Democrats should criticize them for their actions, but somehow emulate them as well. It is a plan on how to win over the average American with language ... yet without actually clarifying where we stand, rather playing on base emotion.

Take these paragraphs for example:

"When Americans ponder such questions today, their frame of reference is not the Vietnam War, but Sept. 11, 2001. The terrorist attacks evoked the most powerful upsurge in patriotic feeling since Pearl Harbor, and thrust national security back into the center of American politics. Democrats have yet to come to grips with this new reality. More than anything else, they need to show the country a party unified behind a new patriotism -- a progressive patriotism determined to succeed in Iraq and win the war on terror, to close a yawning cultural gap between Democrats and the military, and to summon a new spirit of national service and shared sacrifice to counter the politics of polarization.

Winning the war on terror. Democrats' most important task is to articulate a tough but smart strategy for winning the ideological struggle against Jihadist extremism. Yet many liberals remain fixated instead on Iraq. It's true that Team Bush has badly fumbled the occupation, but an anti-Iraq message alone won't reassure voters that Democrats can take charge of the nation's security. On the contrary, the conflation of partisan animus toward Bush with anti-war sentiment has shoved Democrats in a decidedly dovish direction.

Intellectually, of course, it's possible to separate Iraq and the war on terror. But as University of Maryland professor William Galston observed after the 2004 election, "President Bush succeeded in transforming the war in Iraq and the fight against terrorism into questions of basic values and American national identity." And that, Galston wrote, exposed old fissures among Democrats:

"While Republicans stood united in their belief in American exceptionalism, Democrats were badly divided, as they have been since Vietnam. President Bush was able to rally his party by sounding the trumpet of American virtue on the global stage. By contrast, John Kerry struggled to bridge the gap between Tony Blair Democrats, who agreed with the president's principles but deplored his inept policies, and Michael Moore Democrats, who rejected, root and branch, the idea of a global fight against terrorism and for democracy."


What is this suggesting? Can someone please explain this to me? In order to undo the damage that this administration has done with its deception, we need to play along with this new perceived "reality" (even if we know it to be patently false) and attempt resolution within their terms? That because they have convinced a large number of Americans that correlations (ie.9/11 = Iraq) and possibilities (winning the "War on Terror") exist, that they magically do? That instead of drawing attention to the root of our problems and accepting responsibility for our foreign policy missteps ... that we continue on course as though we are complete innocents? That we should suddenly be war hawks to gain votes? That we should ignore the endless hypocrisy? Or perhaps we should forget the individual and jump on the corporate bandwagon.

Sorry - but no way in hell. I'll support candidates that represent my ideals, not the "party", particularly when the party no longer has discernible positions. I'll support candidates that believe what they claim in a consistent manner, not those who decide based on the wind - meaning, I want to know what and who I am voting for. I see no purpose in voting within my party, when my party ceases to represent what I believe - for even a win will not be a victory.

"It is time to summon the strength of America's character once again. Today, the nation faces challenges as great as any we have ever faced: Radical extremists are doing everything they can to destroy our way of life."

Sound familiar? Kind of like "They hate us for our freedoms", no? Try again. The DLC seems to view the world and our place in it, in a similarly narrow view held by the Republicans ... one that allows us to be righteous and free of blame. If you don't believe me, read the first few paragraphs of "How America Can Win Again" on the same site. The quote above is just a sampling. Though I do agree with some of the claimed goals, the language suggests the same empty, pseudo-patriotic, ethnocentrism that has gotten us where we are today. Hell, they even slide in a religious reference for good measure.

I am not targeting every member of the DLC, mind you ... but if this is representative of what they stand for, I'll be paying close attention to those with alliances. This a time to stand up for our beliefs. We should spend more time spouting our values, for our values are consistent and inclusive and equalizing ... and no more time parroting the right as a form of damage control.

[Mass]

173. That may be what you are talking about, but this is not what the OP was

talking about.

This article is exactly what I disagree with. It divides and is totally inept.

Now, if you want to disagree with somebody on what he says, I have no issue with that. Unfortunately, under the leadership of the DLC are some people that are worth of our respect, like Cleland, for example. We may want to try an "purification" of the party, but the term frightens me a lot, or we can fight about people and what they stand for and I am all for it.

[democracyindanger]

175. It's precisely what the OP was talking about.

:shrug:

[PittLib]

187. On the contrary ... I think it is.

Kos disagrees with the DLC's use of "un-American" to describe those against the war and the denigration of the liberal "fringe" and pacifists. He plans to declare war on them. Great. So what? You have a "pb" with his politics ... so you focus on that vs. the reasons for the declaration which are pretty valid from a progressive perspective.

This is pretty far from purism. What percentage qualifies? Perhaps I am unclear as to how much I am expected to compromise before the purist label is lifted. I mean hey - now I can be be pro-war, corporate leaning, God invoking, wishy-washy on abortion AND STILL be a Dem! Hot damn. What ever puts us in power and is most politically expedient.

I will reiterate ... my disdain and mistrust of the DLC's ideals does not necessarily extend to its members. However, I will certainly be going over their records with a fine-tooth comb. I chose the progressive platform for many reasons, the greatest of which is what I deem to be freedom from hypocrisy.

What do you believe the OP intended the point to be? Maybe I am way off ...

edited for sloppy structure.

[Mass]

193. I can agree with part of that.

I will reiterate ... my disdain and mistrust of the DLC's ideals does not necessarily extend to its members. However, I will certainly be going over their records with a fine-tooth comb. I chose the progressive platform for many reasons, the greatest of which is what I deem to be freedom from hypocrisy.

I totally agree with you, but I will comb any record of anybody, DLC or not. DU and kos have spent a lot of time giving a pass to some Dems who are less than liberal,and I certainly would like to see as much a fight against these people (Starting with Salazar and Byrd).

I am tired of a power war that hides the forest by the tree.

And if you want to fight sellouts, Sirota had a nice list a few weeks ago, that went after ALL the Senators and reps that voted consistently against our interests (DLC or not).

Now, if kos think this is more constructive, he can spend his time the way he wants.

[PittLib]

200. I have a feeling that we are on the same page

I find the DLC despicable ... but have a bad habit of lumping all centrists together to a certain degree. The 2004 election was the first time I've really paid much attention, and now I think I am close to "junkie" status. The funny thing is how much my attitude has changed ... if I knew then what I know now - I would have supported another candidate in the primary. I did not pay enough attention, and shame on me. This middle-of-the-road crap is costing us dearly, and I am acutely aware of those who could be defined as such (within my capacity to effect, anyway). I'll have to check the recommended list ... thanks.

[IndianaGreen]

184. DLC's Will Marshall signed the PNAC document and Al From

is a degenerate warmonger. Way to go kos!

[kerrygoddess]

211. He did? Where?

Maybe I am missing his name on this list. Am I missing his name on this list?

Elliott Abrams
Gary Bauer
William J. Bennett
Jeb Bush
Dick Cheney
Eliot A. Cohen
Midge Decter
Paula Dobriansky
Steve Forbes
Aaron Friedberg
Francis Fukuyama
Frank Gaffney
Fred C. Ikle
Donald Kagan
Zalmay Khalilzad
I. Lewis Libby
Norman Podhoretz
Dan Quayle
Peter W. Rodman
Stephen P. Rosen
Henry S. Rowen
Donald Rumsfeld
Vin Weber
George Weigel
Paul Wolfowitz

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

http://www.newamericancentury.org/aboutpnac.htm

I know he's a hawk and the it seems that Kristol has referenced him, but I don't think he's a member. If you have links to show he is please post them. Thanks.

[ulysses]

186. 20 years since the DLC declared war on liberals and progressives.

Seems only fair to me.

[chaska]

189. I support this wholeheartedly.

[Dynasty_At_Passes]

191. Why does DailyKOS purge the conspiracy theorists then?

If they are anti-DLC, they shouldn't be anti-conspiracy.

To me this has hurt their credibility severely. They don't even want to talk about fraud or the fact the last two national elections were stolen. This is totally out of line, and I hope KOS figures out their focus soon......

[bonzotex]

199. Kos can restrict his site all he wants.

Why does DU admin shut down threads or delete messages? These are websites, blogs, discussion boards, whatever you want to call them. They are not the public square or whatever you think is important.
They get off track with too many distracting things and the admin and owners can and should regulate the sites as they see fit. It doesn't stifle your free speech just because you can't post anything anywhere you want.

"I hope KOS figures out their focus soon"

I think he has. He focuses on political candidates and races. Sure there is a lot of other stuff there, but that's his focus. One reason I prefer DU is there is a much wider range of interests and issues. It's a less focused site. There's room in cyberspace for both and inbetween and to either extreme.

Don't like Kos? Start your own blog.

[Dynasty_At_Passes]

201. I have my own blogs. I just think it is counter-productive.

To limit free speech or control ideas is no different than exhibiting the same kind of fascism approaches you want to see eliminated in government.

(By the way, it seems to me this is a double standard being applied in various circles...)

While I agree information must be regulated I don't agree that anyone should stifle a person's free speech, just simply because they disagree with it. On the other side, if it is hate speech and rhetoric from Bushbots or something more vile it should always be regulated. But if its just simple ideas or tout "conspiracies", I don't see the big deal.

[bonzotex]

208. I see your point but,

I just can't get fired up about a web log restricting it's own content and direction. Election fraud is an important issue, but it's not the only reason we lose elections. Kos focuses on those other reasons.

I don't see your double standard arguement. A private partisan political website limiting debate is not the same as government lies and propaganda or corporate control of public media. It's just not.

[derby378]

196. Let the bleeding begin!

About friggin' time someone besides Dean took up the standard against the contagion in our midst.

No offense to DLC'ers who are really trying to work with the grass roots, of course - but 2006 is just around the corner, and this is a struggle for all the marbles.

[bonzotex]

198. all this bashing of Daily Kos? how very DLC...

Daily Kos is a great site. Markos is thoughtful and big tent. He has great regular posts from smart people and guest posts from leading Dems. This old rag about him being paid by Dean sounds like Repug counter-slime. That kind of sliming of our own is mainly why many in the rank and file are weary and leery of anything with the DLC stamp on it.

Sad, truly. Don't like Kos? Don't read him. A lot of good Dems do though and they agree with him. Pay Attention. Kos and his regular posters and thousands of readers are a lot smarter and more in touch with voters than the few hacks that set the DLC course.

DU is not the average group of semi-aware voters. Most of us do know who the DLC is, who's a member, and who supports the DLC agenda more or less. Just because a Pol's name is on the DLC's roster doesn't mean Markos or anybody else is going to blacklist them and help lose another election to a Repug that could have been beaten. Duhh, Hillary Clinton, Kerry, Edwards, etc..DLC. These are good Democrats but not necessary the best. Their vision of what the Democratic Party should be is not necessarily a winning strategy.

The DLC "formula" hasn't worked very well except to take credit for Bill Clinton's presidency. Which is a real questionable claim in any case. True, the average potential Democratic voter may not know or care jack-shit about the DLC, but the average potential Democratic voter hasn't been turning out and voting for DLC type candidates in Districts that wouldn't go Blue anyway.

Kos, like many here, is trying to fight the core battles for what the Democratic Party is about. When the internal debates are over, Kos, like any good Dem, pulls for the Dem candidate. So far, the DLC has done nothing but help the Democrats lose, year after year. After they lose, they blame the crazy left-wingers. When did repeated failure become a virtue? I don't see DLC plotters behind every tree. I see bad DLC policies being pushed right out in public like the DLC alone speaks for the Democratic Party. I see the DLC sliming hardcore, smart activist Democrats for no reason. I see the DLC telling us we need more of the same.

I see lots of smart DU posters here defending the DLC and questioning anyone that attacks the DLC. Others seem to just have an axe to grind over Kos. Which elections exactly has Kos helped lose with his vast influence? anyone?... Bueller? ...Bueller?

What has the DLC done for us lately? What have they done for us since 1985?

Fuck all nothing as far as I can tell. Ohh yeah..lost the Senate, the Congress and twice the Presidency to the worst candidate ever. Oh yeah, and for those of you that say Gore and Kerry won, where was the DLC on election irregularities?

The DLC is not the Democratic Party. They only have as much influence as we give them. I for one don't support them, and I have to question anyone that does, or buys into their "winning strategy".

[Dynasty_At_Passes]

202. I don't know but I think its a grave mistake to dismiss election fraud....

And if that is what DailyKOS continues to do I think it will do the opposite of help. The last two national elections were stolen but KOS for the most part doesn't want to hear anything about fraud or anything unusual like that, and does not put any emphasis behind it. This is a large error IMO because while fraud may not happen every election, it is a problem that until fixed will remain a problem.

[democracyindanger]

204. Wanna know why?

Because any discussion of election fraud turns into a vast wasteland of discourse. Everybody's got their own theory, and anybody who disagrees is an apostate.

It wasn't too long ago that I saw a poster from Kos that had some interesting things to say about fraud. She even identified herself by name, occupation--personal details that most people don't reveal. She had an interesting theory, came over to DU to see what people here thought, and guess what happened?

She was instantly attacked, accused of working with Diebold, essentially called a liar and a troll, and for what? For having a different opinion.

So it makes perfect sense that dKos, or any other site, is turned off by the disruptive nature of discussing election fraud. DU is fortunate that it's structure allowed the mods to seperate election fraud into its own forum. dKos isn't built like that, so the only thing that could be done is to prohibit discussion altogether.

[Dynasty_At_Passes]

206. I guess what I'm trying to say is....

They should have setup a seperate section for election fraud with sound arguments.

[bonzotex]

207. on a thread about Kos going after the DLC....

..we get multiple posts about election fraud and how Kos sucks because he cut it off. Is our Irony detector broken? This is exactly why he limits it. There are plenty of sites that are all conspiracy, all the time, and all election fraud all the time. Kos is not that site. Neither is DU.

My mention of election fraud was only in reference to the lack of action by the DLC on that issue. Kos is not a mover and shaker of the Democratic elite. The DLC is. Direct your disappointment at them.

[Q]

231. The DLC has a bit of a problem when it comes to election fraud...

...and it's all because of Al Gore. They had everything riding on...that's right...not Gore...but Lieberman. Gore was never really their kind of politician. They had to back him at first because he was Clinton's VP. They put Lieberman in as his VP so a true DLCer would have a shot at the oval office somewhere down the road.

In the eyes of From and Company...Gore betrayed them when he threw off their 'third way' advice and started to run a POPULIST campaign. Among other things...Gore talked about corporate RESPONSIBILITY and the DLC's sponsors didn't like that at all.

Gore eventually WON the popular vote by a good margin and was neck and neck with bush even though his 'team' was throwing away (mostly Black) ballots by the thousands. Bush Family Friends on the Supreme Court came to the rescue with their decidedly illegal decision to stop the legal recount. Meanwhile...DLC Lieberman was showing up on Talking Head Pundit shows actually encouraging Gore to concede.

Bush 'took' office but Gore had won both the popular vote and the recount. But the DLC couldn't admit it because Gore had won using a populist campaign and the DLC had insisted that such a campaign would never work to attract enough voters. It ruined their theory that only a centrist message could win and that the Dem base wasn't large enough in and of itself.

So...rather than help America restore democracy and fight election fraud...the DLC chose to ignore it altogether to keep intact their theory that populist campaigns can't win elections.

[Cha]

232. I hadn't thought of it in that

light before..but it sure seemed like that's what happened..it would explain a lot. Too bad lieberman put good people to sleep.

I'm so proud of Gore and what he's accomplishing.

[bonzotex]

233. very nice analysis and a good example

Every time I look at what the DLC actually does rather than what they say they do, I get more depressed and disgusted.

Guys like Al From are as self-deluded as the worst Bush-bot repug. Why does anyone listen to these guys? Oh yeah, they funnel money from big donors and corporations. When are Democrats going to quit selling out to big money special interests? That's become the Republican standard and we can hammer them for it as long as we don't listen to the DLC.

The only half-assed defense of the DLC I can buy is that they are technically Democrats and we shouldn't slime our own. That's not good enough. Zell Miller was technically a Democrat.

The DLC could be a positive Progressive organization, but they repeatedly choose to pander to some mythical centrist voting block that I don't think exists.

Kill, die, or get out of the way. Until these guys do something that actually helps Democrats win and restore some real Populist Democratic values, I say fuck-em.

[liberalpragmatist]

251. Of course, Al Gore was a DLC-poster child

He may not be anymore. I'm not really a fan of the DLC and their quasi-war-championing, nor do I dislike Al Gore. But claiming they always distrusted him is nonsense. Take a look at Al Gore's senate record - he was a very center-right Democrat who championed gun-owners, had a voting record on abortion that was well to the right, championed the tobacco industry, criticized popular music, and was known as one of the party's strongest hawks, evidenced by his vote for the first gulf war.

[PittLib]

240. ooooh ... snap!

Nice work my friend. Well said.

[kenny blankenship]

234. No room for appeasers in this party

Appeasers and fellow travelers of Fascism must be confronted directly and unmasked as fake Democrats.

[LetsGoMurphys]

235. and we wonder why arent in power..

What an idea attack dems when the worst people imaginable are in power. Keep acting like this and we can just prepare for a permanent republican majority.

[Q]

239. The DLC is working with and protecting...

...the 'worst people imaginable'. We can't presume to get rid of these fascists until we clean up our own house.

[PittLib]

241. Do you want damage control ...

or do you want progress?

[Kipepeo]

243. I don't think we will ever win WITH the DLC

So to me this makes sense and is long overdue. I don't think they have the party's best interests at heart.

[bpilgrim]

246. they(DLC) always attack Dems & outright say they wanna get rid of LIBERALS

wtf is wrong with them :shrug:

peace

[caligirl]

238. Just got donation request from DNC- no plan for

the grassroots, just another we want your money so we can do what we want. Its disgusting. They never want to actually represent and listen to the grassroots. The just want their $$.

Go for it kos, i am eager to get this over with.

[bpilgrim]

247. Bush Hasn't even done that, yet - though his admin and public supporters

HAVE :puke:

wtf is WRONG with the DLC :shrug:


http://media.globalfreepress.com

peace

[LittleClarkie]

250. Could we start a new thread on this topic

if people want to continue the discussion?

This one is becoming a dialup bandwidth monster.

[Name removed]

252. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NMDemDist2]

253. Locking, thread two is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2029781