Wesley Clark on Meet the Press Sunday-General's War Table

[RamboLiberal]

Head Up for DU'ers - this ought to be good.

MEET THE PRESS WITH TIM RUSSERT
WEEKEND LISTINGS 8/28/05

AMBASSADOR ZALMAY KHALILZAD
U.S. Ambassador to Iraq

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.)
Former Supreme Allied Commander, Europe

GEN. WAYNE DOWNING (RET.)
Former Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Special Operations Command

GEN. BARRY MCCAFFREY (RET.)
Former Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Southern Command

GEN. MONTGOMERY MEIGS (RET.)
Commanding General, U.S. Army, Europe
Former Commander, Stabilization Force, Bosnia-Herzegovina

Iraq: Political violence and deaths surge as Iraqis still struggle to draft a new constitution. We'll get the very latest from the U.S. Ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad on this Sunday's "Meet the Press with Tim Russert."

Then, we will convene a special "war council" to get a military assessment of the war in Iraq. Are we winning? Do we need a timetable? What is the state of the Iraqi Security Forces? When will our U.S. troops come home? We will ask an all-star panel of four retired military generals: Gen. Wesley Clark (Ret.), Former Supreme Allied Commander, Europe; Gen. Wayne Downing (Ret.), Former Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Special Operations Command; Gen. Barry McCaffrey (Ret.), Former Commander-in-Chief, U.S. Southern Command; and Gen. Montgomery Meigs (Ret.), Commanding General, U.S. Army, Europe.

[jonnyblitz]

1. this will be interesting. thanks for the heads up. nt

[faithfulcitizen]

2. this oughta be good... :)

[FrenchieCat]

3. Here's some info about each General

Gen. Wesley K. Clark


Under the overall leadership of Richard Holbrooke, Wesley Clark headed the U.S. military team during negotiations that led to the Bosnian Peace Accords, in Dayton, Ohio.

From 1997, he was head of the U.S. European Command (CINCEUR), responsible for about 109,000 U.S. troops and all U.S. military activities in 89 countries and territories of Europe, Africa, and the Middle East.

As Supreme Allied Commander (SACEUR) he also had overall command of NATO military forces in Europe and led approximately 60,000 troops from 37 NATO and other nations in Bosnia-Herzegovina. As SACEUR, he confronted Yugoslavia over Kosovo.

A harsh critic of the current Republican administration, Wesley Clark is viewed as a possible Democratic Party candidate for President or Vice President in the 2008 presidential election, one who can unite the various factions of the Democratic party, as well as bringing in independents and moderate Republican voters.
============

Gen. Wayne Downing


As commander of a Joint Special Operations Task Force assigned to U.S. Central Command during Desert Storm, Gen. Downing planned and led operations in support of the coalition war effort. He is a highly decorated combat veteran with two combat tours in Vietnam and service in both Operation Just Cause in Panama and Operation Desert Storm. Gen. Wayne Downing, who was brought out of retirement after Sept. 11 to serve as a deputy national security adviser, resigned suddenly from the anti-terrorism position on June 27. Downing, who was a four-star Army general and the former chief of Special Operations Command, departs only nine months after taking the White House job.

Although his official duties focused on the al Qaeda threat, Downing was one of the loudest voices in the debate over the necessity and methods for destroying the regime of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
http://www.droitvp.org/Dossier-USgen-resignation.html
=========

Gen. Barry McCaffrey


General McCaffrey served as the JCS assistant to General Colin Powell and supported the Chairman as the staff advisor to the Secretary of State and the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations.
http://contact.wlu.edu/History/2001-g-mccaffrey.htm
"We are getting toward the end of our capacity," warned Gen. McCaffrey, who now serves as a professor at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point, N.Y., and has a consulting company. "The U.S. Army and Marine Corps are incapable of sustaining the effort. Our recruiting is coming apart. The National Guard is going to unravel." He quickly added: "But in Iraq the fighting forces are superb. Morale is high and the troops are courageous."

Gen. McCaffrey's outlook appears to run counter to more positive estimates coming out of the White House, but his reputation as a seasoned combat veteran with two tours in Vietnam, one in the Dominican Republic and one in Iraq, makes his a voice to be heard.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20050621-101315-8520r.htm
========
Gen. Montgomery C. Meigs


General Montgomery C. Meigs became the Commander of the Stabilization Force in Bosnia-Herzegovina on October 23, 1998. He served as the Commanding General, United States Army Combined Arms Center and Commandant of the Army's Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas since August 1997. General Meigs graduated from the United States Military Academy at West Point, New York, in 1967 with a bachelor of Science Degree. He has a Ph.D. in history from the University of Wisconsin. His awards include the Distinguished Service Medal, the Bronze Star Medal with V device, and the Purple Heart.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/862973.asp

[Texas_Kat]

4. A kick for the late saturday nite crowd

[Adelante]

5. kick for bedtime

Night night :)

[Clarkie1]

6. Kick and...

It probably won't change any minds, but I figured it couldn't do any harm...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1472161/posts

[FrenchieCat]

7. Looks like a bunch of Chickenhawk assholes over at FR

Don't know that their Prez Bush don't know what the fuck he is doing.

Yeah, Bush, it's hard work...and that's something you know nothing about.

These tarded Freepers are amazing!

They must love Bush's 30 day old dirty drawers, Cause that's what Iraq smells like! LOL!

[Totally Committed]

8. Well, it's easy to see which General scares them the most!

:rofl:

GO, GENERAL CLARK! Scare those darned freepers until they are forced "to watch HGTV instead"!

:rofl:

TC

[Dinger]

13. Goddamn, That's My President!

Indeed, it was very easy to see who scared them the most! If I could turn back time . . . .

Wes would be our President,
bu$h would be in the Hague,
bu$h (& co.) (BFEE) would be history,
bu$h co. would be convicted of mass murder of political opponents & rape
& murder of various civilian acquaintances,
hugh shelton & co. would be sucking their thumbs & rocking in a closet
somewhere,
kenny boy would go down, along with others of his ilk,
Many "moderate" repugs would come out of the closet, the BFEE closet),
bu$h would go into exile (They will never execute a "president"),
The repug party would dissolve,
Elections would be real elections,
DSM would have a domino effect such as the world has not seen before,
There would be congressional action which would result in the impeachment
of all judges installed under the bu$h regime,
They'd pour water on Laura & she'd short-circuit,
News would not be censored and journalists would be real and fair,


Oh, I don't know, I'm just rambling and fantasizing here. It's been fun though.

[Sparkly]

20. LOL!!! What happened to all their "respect for the military?"

It sure flies out the window when their precious chickenhawk AWOL Chimp is under criticism!!!

:rofl:

Edited to add: I love how they have a problem with the fact that all these retired generals "served under Clinton." Um, so they should dig up some retired generals as decorated as these guys who DIDN'T serve during the Clinton administration? Are they all supposed to resign when a Democrat is elected?

:rofl:

[johnaries]

9. Clark was GREAT!

Every comment was right on the mark.

I'm a Kerry man, but Clark would have made a GREAT President.

[Adelante]

10. Thank you for that courtesy.

:hi:

I couldn't watch it, because I don't get the channel here. :cry:

[Texas_Kat]

32. Here's a link to the podcast

http://podcast.msnbc.com/audio/podcast/pd_mtp-08-28-2005-092416.mp3

You gotta hear this. WKC is the only one who can see past the "It'll be okay" and 'stay the course" happy talk to a "change the course" involving real solutions.

[Totally Committed]

14. Amen.

This program proved one very important fact: Not all Generals are created alike.

General Clark was the only one stressing the need for diplomacy, and stressing the mistakes made by this administration.

He was also definitely the only Democrat at that table.

TC

[RandomUser]

21. Clark was a Head of State

"Not all generals are created alike" -- you're quite right, TC. SACEUR makes a difference.

Now we see why the European Command is the most coveted and competitive of all the regional CinC positions. I, too, noticed the difference in their answers -- not just in terms of partisan leanings, but in terms of breadth of perspective.

As SACEUR, Clark held Head-of-State status (no other general in the U.S. military has it, nor do any of our other 2004/2008 candidates). He dealt directly with the leaders of other nations. And you can see that breadth of perspective reflected in his answers.

His answers focused not just on military force, but on politics and diplomacy. It wasn't just buzzwords, but a display of a grasp of the nitty gritty of civilian implementation. He mentioned the importance of airports in reconstruction -- building them in locations that will help foster tourism in Iraq, and getting input from Iraq's neighbors on how to best rebuild cross-border trade, creating economic ties that give them an incentive to help stabilize Iraq's borders.

It's a pity the media often tries to pidgeonhole Clark as a military guy. His answers often include political, diplomatic, and economic aspects. The other generals were focused on Iraq, Clark was focused on the whole region.

[Totally Committed]

43. It's true!

Every General they put on with Wes was badly overmatched. They looked and sounded like another breed altogether as they tried to hold onto their dignity, but knew they had to defend the Bushies.

Wes just rolled over them and spoke truth to power the entire time.

He was awesome!

TC

[europegirl4jfk]

28. Totally agree!

I like them both. Maybe a Clark/Kerry or a Kerry/Clark ticket would be great for America in 2008.

[Algorem]

11. transcript-

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9064938/

[Adelante]

19. Thanks, I needed that

This was a question Russert asked about Clark's WaPo Op-Ed on Friday, where he challenges Bush to put up a real strategy or get the fuck out.

GEN. CLARK: Exactly. And it starts with the intent and the purposes, the mind-set of the administration when it went into Iraq. This administration went into Iraq as this was the first of a number of states that it was going to knock off, get leadership change in, maybe even move military forces against. They expected to be welcomed as liberators. Then they refused to really construct a diplomatic dialogue in the region. For us to succeed in Iraq, we've got to deal with Iraq's neighbors. You cannot isolate Iraq from its neighborhood. Iraq's neighbors are part of the problem, and they've got to be part of the solution. That means we're going to have to talk to Syria and Iran and Turkey and Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and the best thing to do is to try to get them all together in a step-by-step process so that there can be a regional dialogue. If we can put a regional dialogue together on top of the political process that's going on in Iraq, then maybe we've got a chance. Without that, then it's in the interest of every one of those states to fight inside Iraq for their own interests. So the Iranians pull their faction in Iraq one way. The Syrians and the Saudis work on the Sunnis to do what they want. And this state is getting ripped apart from the outside. We want to help put that state together, we've got to work with Iraq's neighbors.

MR. RUSSERT: Why is it in Iran or Syria's interests to help us? Why not let the current status quo continue and they can take full advantage of having a radical Islamic state in Iraq, which is fueled by terrorism who can help destroy the United States?

GEN. CLARK: Well, it's up to U.S. diplomacy to find those elements of common interest. And here's the way I'd it. If you look at Iran, what they want is a Shia-dominated buffer state in Iraq. After all, they were invaded by Iraq once. They see this as an historic opportunity to advance the cause of Shia Islam. That's exactly what the Saudis and the Kuwaitis and other Gulf states don't want. And so between those two diverging points of views, we could pull together the common interests, broker the compromises, work the arrangements, and craft a state in Iraq that meets everybody's concerns in the regions and gives the Iraqi people the kind of self-determination and regional support that they're going to need.

MR. RUSSERT: Was it a mistake to go into Iraq?

GEN. CLARK: Well, I think it was a strategic blunder. First it wasn't connected to the war on terror, at least not to the people that struck us. Secondly, it has proved a huge recruitment tool for al-Qaeda. It's a feed lot for terrorists who want to learn how to fight Americans. We put our American soldiers at risk there. And we're producing terrorists out there. It's a training ground. And seeing American soldiers engaged there just raises the temperature and the blood pressure throughout the Islamic world. So I wish we hadn't done it. But having said that, I still believe there's an opportunity to make the best of a bad situation in Iraq. I don't want to see us come out of there if we can put a strategy together that will leave that region more peaceful and protect our interests and the interests of the other nations.

[win_in_06]

12. All of the Generals praised our military but didn't have much

good to say about Rummy. Clark is the only one who thinks we'll fail in Iraq.

[Donna Zen]

15. Interesting dichotomy

They all agree that rummy is bad and has screwed up everything, and yet, 3 of them believe that with rummy and kindauseless rice at the helm, everything will turn out okay.

Clark believes that if we fail to win hearts and minds, if kindauseless-rummy stay in charge, then things will not be okay.

I'm voting that of the 4, Clark is logical.

[Totally Committed]

16. Four big ole bad-ass Generals and only one had the balls

to openly criticize this administration ideologically and strategically.

That General, for those who couldn't watch, was Wes Clark.

TC

[renie408]

17. "I think"...

I keep hearing the 'other' generals saying they think that Iraq will be in great shape in a year. One just said that he 'thinks' that '12 of 16 provinces will be in great shape' and that 'three of the Sunni provinces will come around'. WHY?? WHY do you think that? What leads you to believe this? How well they are coming around right now? How about the fact that the Shiites are most likely to take their part of Iraq and become Iran East?? And since the Kurds have been trying to establish their own autonomous country for...EVER...what makes these guys think they are going to stop now that they have their best shot ever?? And WHY would the Sunnis be happy to just go along with everybody else when they are (in their view) getting screwed out of everything?

I hate people who just say stupid shit because they are butt kissers.

[FrenchieCat]

18. Wow! 3 Retired Generals and one 4 Star Leader on MTP today!

Wes Clark really clearly articulated all of the problems in Iraq. He was forceful in his critique of the Bush administration.

Talked about the fact that any drawing down of the troops will be for cover of the 2006 election.

He really put those WH cheerleading Generals to shame.

Downing was a WH General Whore, Meigs was the General Media Shill, McCaffrey was the "all over the place on the fence" General, and Clark was the "let me slap your face with the realities" General.

3 to 1, and Clark still got a very clear message out; Iraq is not a state that we will be proud of having created 5 years from now. The paper mache government put in place by this administration will most likely fail due to exterior forces (Iraq's neighbors who understand that if Iraq is a success, they are next). The Diplomatic hard work is not being done by this administration. The administration's original intent on why they were going to Iraq will not allow it to do the right thing.

[Cosmocat]

22. YEP !!!

Three years of this situation incrementally getting worse, and these guys want to make it out like it is going to turn around by next year ...

Also, one of these guys said they have something like 30+ divisions of Iraqis who are ready to take over security ... AND, of the guys who felt that there was going to be some kind of drawdown of troops next year, only Clark called it for what it would be, because of elections ...

Frankly, the one guy who kept saying he wasn't partisan clearly was pushing R/Con agenda, and the other two were, also ...

[Pharlo]

23. Which, in turn, brings up the question:

which MIC corporations are these "retired" generals now working for?

[Totally Committed]

24. If you feel you have the answer to that, please share!

Anyone who pays taxes inthis country supports the Military Industrial Complex, whether they want to or not.

So, please share.

TC

[alcuno]

25. Downing was on *'s National Security Council

He was one of the proponents of the war. I like how he said "I was part of this administration." Yeah, Wayne. Tell people what your job was and what you advocated for and we'll see if you have any credibility left with viewers.

[Adelante]

26. Anybody seen the "Meet the Press Moment" today?

They feature two questions and show it on and off all day. I'd like to know what the two questions were specifically. I don't get any NBC channels at all. Thank you.

[chimpymustgo]

27. Clark was outstanding. Excellent, informative program.

Clark also showed some creative thinking about dealing with this pigfu*ck we've created. It's not just for our military to solve - it will take diplomacy.

That's a critical issue that hasn't been addressed enough.

Clark was very, very impressive. I'm nominating.

[FrenchieCat]

29. Plus Clark was the only General who showed passion for his views....

and talked about the type of Character that Generals should have. He was implicitly refering to his own battle with the pentagon back in 1999. He pointed out that since none of the current generals are resigning that they are, in the words of General Zinni, "stepford Generals"! That was a great part...because it let others know that being retired from the military after years of services shows someone willing to lose his career for what's right....and of course, that's the kind of leaders we want.

So the show was 3 Stepford Generals and a real deal leader!

Loved It!

[Tom Rinaldo]

30. I caught that too. My jaw almost dropped.

I was not surprised by Clark's position on that, because it is completely consistent with the choices he made in his own military career, but it was very powerful to hear that said by a General sitting around the table with four other Generals. Clark always stands for accountability, for "the Buck stops here", most especially at the senior levels of command where the importance of standing by your beliefs is magnified by the potential huge negative consequences of of failing to do so, for the nation one is sworn to serve.

[Totally Committed]

34. And, it is that "accountability", that sense of responsibility, that

makes his opinion on how and when to leave Iraq admirable. There's a certain moral authority in his feeling a sense of accountability. The Bush administration has NONE of that. Wes feels that accountability, that responsibility, and shows the leadership to care whether or not this craven mistake of a war ends up leaving the entire region more destabilized when we leave, or stronger. He said the key to that is diplomacy. He implied that if the Bush administration would only talk to Iraq's neighbors, that not only would we be out of there sooner, but the whole region would be stronger when we left. That is real courage in the face of three other Generals who are not politically aligned with the Democratic Party.

Wes speaks from a moral center that few others in public life are able to have. His compassion for the suffering he knows we have caused, his love for the soldiers over there doing the fighting, and his obvious dislike for the Bush administration all give him a "voice" that is strong and righteous.

Even if you don't support him or his "plan", you have to respect him for his amazingly courageous, moral, and righteous appearance today on MTP.

He was outstanding.

TC

[Texas_Kat]

35. Clark on being a responsible military leader:

First, when generals are given senior command positions and they've had their entire lives and professional education in the military, they're expected to have a body of professional knowledge and character that lets them stand up for what they believe. So we have a principle of civilian supremacy. No one doubts that the secretary of defense is ultimately in charge. He's going to make the right decision or he's going to make the right decision as he sees it. It's up to the generals.

If they feel he's making the wrong decision, they fight it. If they feel it's that significant, then they retire or resign from their position. Nobody's done that. So whatever the thrashing around was, they are complicit in that decision, in those decisions. Whether they turn out to have been bad or not, that was military advice.

Now, we've all been in positions where we've disagreed with our bosses, and it turns out, you know, bosses normally don't like that, so it's a pretty unpleasant thing, and you've got to have people of character in uniform at high positions, and then you've got to trust the process. In this case, I don't think the answers that came out of that process were good.

Clark's point has always been that you fight for what's right.... principles.... this man has principles!

[Totally Committed]

38. Can you imagine what our country would be like if

a President with strong principles, a deep moral authority, and a sense of true accountability were sitting in the WH?

I thought the section of his answer you chose to highlight was so honest as to be shocking. Truly, after supporting Wes for literally years, you'd think nothing he could or would say could shock me. But, his candor, his honesty and his righteousness was so there. I watched most of that appearance to day with my jaw on the floor. He is an inspriation.

TC

[Texas_Kat]

39. I wasn't so surprised ....

Clark has always been about accountability and transparency.

It's often difficult to convince partisans of that.

They have been lied to (or maybe 'misled for personal political gain' is a better way to put it) so often they don't know who to trust.

Clark is a truth teller.

To his friends, to his enemies, to the American people. Regardless of whether it's good news or bad news.

As an adult who is seriously worried about the future of this country, I'd rather be told the truth than be pandered to by those who spout 'talking points' and 'soundbytes' in an effort to win the popularity contests we call 'elections'.

I appreciate that Clark respects our ability to think for ourselves and believes that we are intelligent enough to see past the 'easy answer'. Rabid voices on either left or right who resort to these tactics cater to the worst, simpleminded pandering. They seem to believe in this "Have it your way' sloganeering as though it's not more complex than buying fast food.

We deserve better.

[Totally Committed]

40. I didn't mean to imply I was shocked he was able to be honest.

Wes has always been the most honest and straight-forward of people. At this point, I couldn't support him if he were not. And I support him to the hilt.

What I meant, and obviously said poorly, was that I am in awe of a man who could (and some probably think should) be thinking only about his political "viability". Think about all the "politicians" right now, bending themselves into pretzels and tryin gto nuance their every position and answer to fit the latest polling info.

But, not Wes! He sat there and with a clear eye and shoulders held high, he said what he meant, and you could tell, he meant what he said. He didn't mince words. He didn't kiss ass. He didn't measure the meaning of every word. He just flat out said what he knew to be the truth. He was true to himself first, and insobeing, was true to us. We don't often get that these days from the "leaders" in this Party, do we?

Am I allowed now to still say I was (pleasantly) shocked? Because I was!

TC

[Texas_Kat]

41. You are absolutely right

I didn't mean at all to be critical. Sometimes WKC's fearlessness takes my breath away.

Maybe I should have said I was 'riveted' by what he was saying....again!

[CarolNYC]

42. Yep, once again, breathtakingly fearless...

That about sums it up.

[Gloria]

31. Clark the only one with real guts today on MTP--Here's the rankings/review

Clark was the only one of the generals to take it to Bushco's phoney foreign policy and the only one without the "happy scenario" for the next year or so....

Let's rank the generals:


Downing--admitted he was a a former member of the Buscho Admin., and kept trying to say he wasn't political in his comments (once in an obvious slam at Clark). But over and over, it was all sunshine for Downing and he was the most optimistic of all...Bigtime Bushco shill.

Meigs--favored going in, more balanced than Downing, but still less critical that McCaffrey or Clark. Happy face for a year or so out.

McCaffrey--favored going in, slammed Bushco pretty much across the board, publicly agreed with Clark on a couple of things, but in the end, he turned on the happy face for a year or so out, which was sort of a jolt!

Clark--Strongly stood by his WaPo oped from yesterday as quoted; Stuck his neck out to go after Bushco "diplomacy" (Downing countered him); explained clearly what diplomacy is supposed to be, ie,
getting the states around Iraq into discussion; explained all the tensions in the area; brought up the 2006 politics of withdrawal first; and then saw continued strife over the next year or so. Said the Admin. would fudge it all for 2006, declaring the mess a win, but pointed out that we had to look 5 or 10 years out before knowing what was left. Brought up Afghanistan, too. Also said that the military guys who didn't fight Rummy were COMPLICIT in the policy...said military guys who disagree strongly will retire or resign...implication was that that didin't happen.

Clearly positioned himself STRONGLY apart from the rest of them and obviously was the "black sheep".

WINNER hands down: CLARK for clarity, long range vision, and willingness to take on the politics of Bushco.

[npincus]

33. McCaffrey , self-professed "Iraq War supporter" was NBC commentator

throughout the lead-up and during the early stages of the invasion.

So, we got our dose of MSM "news" from a B*sh cheerleader. What a surprise.

[Gloria]

36. Did anybody notice what KHALILZAD said about the Constitution

being something that would basically change over time? (that's the gist of it, as he argued that it could be adjusted as things developed).

How IRONIC!! Here, our Constitution isn't supposed to change, right? According to those "non-activist", strict constructionists like Scalia, et al....? And our friend Roberts????

[FrenchieCat]

37. Yep, I picked up on the "living document" theme......

for those strict constitution types. LOL!

But guess "they" will argue, that when you write a constitution as though you are ordering a fast food happy meal, sticking with it would be a giant disaster.

Point being, this constitution is nothing but a "show" for a a paper mache government (Clark's term) that will do what needs to be done for Bush and the GOP's political well being.