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[WhoCountsTheVotes]

1. Kerry can beat Bush: LAME MEME

won't get fooled again.

[jpgray]

2. One isn't so lame: he made a mistake on IWR

I support Kerry, but like it or not, he did.

I would add to the lame section: "he's corporate!", "he's Bush-lite!"

Other than Kucinich, it's unlikely you will find a candidate whose views are more separate from Bush's. Dean qualifies on the war, but he is worse than Kerry on the environment and he is even with him on most other issues.

[XanaDUer]

7. Thanks, jpgray

actually, though, Dean supported unilateral action towards Iraq if the UN did not enforce its own resolutions.

He supported Biden-Lugar. And, the piece of resistance, he DID NOT even have to vote. 20/20 hindsight is great, I guess. Bad in a President, though.

Dennis K. actually put his nuts on the line, unlike Dean. HIM I admire.

[jpgray]

11. DK beats Kerry and Dean hands down. Dean is marginally better than Kerry

Biden/Lugar is a better resolution than IWR--it limits the authorization to disarming Iraq, not "the war on terror", requiring further congressional authorization for widening the conflict. Now, keeping in mind he didn't have to vote, there is a consistent record of statements from Dean on how he believes the president had NOT made the case for war. For these reasons, I rank Dean slightly higher than Kerry. He was little waffley here and there, but on the whole Dean's credentials ont he war trump Kerry's.

But yes, Dennis owns all on this, as he does with many other issues. :)

[JohnKleeb]

15. JP I know you as someone who has supported both Dean and Kerry

or at least had them both in your top candiate tire, I appreciate your fairness. I tell people that the big 4 or at least Kerry and Dean were for a middle ground, not totally against the idea of war in Iraq, not totally for. Kerry ends up looking like a hawk because of his vote, but I can swear to you that a couple of weeks ago, I read in a NYT article that Ted Kennedy argues that they both had the same position. Something like that.

[MercutioATC]

42. It wasn't "hindsight". Dean spoke against the war BEFORE the IWR vote.

...remember, back when there was something like 67% public support for the war?

Kucinich voted against the IWR, which is the ONLY responsible vote, in my opinion, but Dean hardly "Monday morning quarterbacked" the issue...he spoke against it from the beginning.

[JohnKleeb]

9. JP

We all laud Ted Kennedy and Kerry votes with him like 90% of the time, it could be 95%, I am not sure. If you look at Kerry's platform, which I have, I found it pretty damn liberal. I admit he is more of a hawk than me, but as long as people ignore DK :(, then I think all the major 4 will be hawkish in someway, no not like Bush not at all. A fellow Kerry supporter told me last night, thanks to him we have Kyoto. I am a new Kerry supporter but when I was for DK he had been my number 2 for a while.

[jpgray]

20. Yes, Kerry has an incredible record

I still go back and forth between Kerry, Dean and Kucinich. I defend Kerry probably the most, because Dean has plenty of supporters on this board, and Kucinich doesn't need much defending. :)

As far as platforms, his is probably the most liberal, excepting Kucinich and perhaps Sharpton. Of the high-polling candidates, his is probably the most liberal, depending on what Dean's tax stance turns out to be.

If I were just voting my heart, I couldn't vote for anyone but Dennis.

[JohnKleeb]

26. I took the AOL presidential candiate test and the issues 2004

Kucinich and Sharpton always precede Kerry, and this is me at my most idealistic! I really think if people :shrug: looked at his platform, he wouldnt be so bad to them, its pretty comprehensive. I defended Kerry often when I supported DK. I think lol thats the problem, we all like DK in our hearts but can't commit, I still like DK a lot.

[Trajan]

16. Let us clarify ...

Some (many) Democrats voted FOR the IWR .... AFTER being force-fed an Intelligence Estimate by an Administration which TWISTED and MANGLED what was traditionally an UNpolitical product of the US intelligence community ...

Even THEY had no idea that the Bush crime family would EVER create such a horrendous document from whole clothe ....

The mere fact that a Senator signed the IWR, after reading that which THEY THOUGHT was as reliable as it always had been for time immemorial ... the fact they signed it is a direct result of their being hoodwinked ....

They should have looked further and deeper .... But what Bush and his PNAC/OSP friends had done was unprecedented ....

I give them a pass on the IWR for this reason ...

[cindyw]

21. point well taken

We all fight, but the truth is the only one who supported invasion outright was Lieberman.

[jpgray]

29. Well, there is a huge distinction between Kerry and Rose Gardeners

My reasoning on this is as follows:

Dean made several statements that Bush "had not made the case" before the voting on IWR, and he was correct, in my view. Granted, he was not privy to Senate briefings, so perhaps he wasn't subject to the same level of deceit as the others, but he had doubts. Dean has statements where he concedes Saddam has WMD, so he was on the same page with Kerry on that, but perhaps not on the "imminent threat" part. Biden/Lugar was a better resolution than IWR for the reasons I give above.

Kerry was subject to the Senate briefings, and expressed his doubts about the war very clearly before his vote. He holds with those doubts today. In the end he voted for IWR, and his statement that it was to give the legitimate "threat" of force as a bargaining chip makes sense, but doesn't fully wash with me. I would hazard that it was a combination of deceitful Senate briefings and keeping the coming campaign in mind--no one really knows for sure, however. If there is a "good" way to vote for IWR, this would be it. Still a mistake, in my opinion, but one I can forgive much more easily than I can forgive Lieberman and Gephardt.

But I'm ABB anyway. :)

[girl gone mad]

3. Well..

He may not be boring, but he doesn't inspire me.

He is a Washington insider. He is a member of Skull and Bones, not that it meas anything, IMO. He has waffled on Iraq, and of all of the "memes", that one bothers me.

[zulchzulu]

13. S&B!!!! Ahhh!

Any mention of Skull and Bones gets the Ignore feature applied.

[KC21304]

28. Not with me. I have absolutely no one on ignore.

But it does give me a good laugh once in awhile.

Bull and Scones for everyone.

[emulatorloo]

30. He hasn't waffled on Iraq - he said what he says from day 1

He is against weapons proliferation, he is for process and war as a last resort.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html

Remarks of Senator John Kerry on Iraq
October  09,  2002 US Senate

<snip>

Let me be clear: I am voting to give this authority to the President for one reason and one reason only: to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction if we cannot accomplish that objective through new tough weapons inspections.  In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days -  to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out "tough, immediate" inspections requirements and to "act with our allies at our side" if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force.

 If he fails to do so, I will be the first to speak out.   If we do go to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so in concert with others in the international community.  <snip> If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region and breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots - and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed.   Let there be no doubt or confusion as to where I stand: I will support a multilateral effort to disarm Iraq by force, if we have exhausted all other options.  But I cannot - and will not - support a unilateral, US war against Iraq unless the threat is imminent and no multilateral effort is possible. 

[GalleryGod]

45. So if you had a brain aneurysm, you'd consult a Surgical "Outsider"

Like maybe a PLUMBER ?

Just trying to follow the outsider analogy to it's normal crash & burn conclusion.

Your Man in the S.U.B. hangin' out with the policy wonks:hangover: cute ones!

G.G.:smoke:

[JohnKleeb]

4. A Massachusetts liberal

:shrug: thats a bad thing
Its no fair really, my parents get one for their generation. Personally even when I didnt support him, he didnt bore me. You're in New Hampshire now Pete? BTW I saw your letter, very beautiful. I still support DK because well DK :) is DK, but Kerry is a good compromise, if you look at his record, its quite liberal, and in fact I hear to some hes even more liberal than Ted Kennedy. Endorsements hardly ever make me look at a guy I admit, but Ted's of Kerry made me reanaylize Kerry, plus the Kerry supporters helped me out with info and etc. I am a happy Kerry Kid/Kucitizen on this day. I hope we do well.

[Name removed]

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[JohnKleeb]

19. I bet its cold

but I hope we can love NH as much as we do Iowa ;). I havent made any prediction yet.

[KC21304]

5. He can remind voters of all those terrible " liberal" ideas.

Social Security, GI Bill of Rights, Medicare, civil rights, overtime pay, etc.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[JaneQPublic]

8. The Anti-Gore memes were equally lame, if not moreso. But they stuck. (nt)

[Justice]

10. Not Lame To Say That Kerry Conducting a Very Negative

Campaign against other candidates and in doing so alienating the supporters of those candidates. Not lame to say that I am very disappointed in my Senator Kerry.

He and his supporters can ignore the comments of others, at his peril.

Also, the stuff that put Kerry down two months ago will resurface, so don't think he is scott free. Also, there is more stuff that will come out, so be cocky at your peril.

I am sick of supporters of a candidate who think their candidate is scott-free, but everyone else's candidate has legitimate issues worthy of statements and criticisms.

Don't be so darn cocky.

[KC21304]

18. Let's see.......ummmm, yes, Pete, your post is way too cocky. LOL

You need to take some lessons in timidity from others here.

[emulatorloo]

33. Another Candidate Based 30% of his Campaign on Attacking Kerry from day 1

This candidate made a lot of political capital out of saying extremely negative things that could be considered very divisive about the other Dem candidates, but nobody seemed to get too upset about it.

Somehow the attitude I see is that "it isn't an attack if my candidate makes it. "

And quite frankly, the candidates do have to differentiate themselves from one another, so I don't get too upset about it when they do so.

[creativelcro]

12. Those points are still good for me. I'm a MA resident NOT voting for Kerry

[gulliver]

14. Can't think on his feet. Always plays it safe.

Was part and parcel of Dem "compliancy" during Bush's tenure.

Abandoned Clark to the dogs in refusing to second Michael Moore's right to bring up Bush's AWOL. That was either yellow, opportunistic, or wise. I put it less wise and more the other two reasons. Not a good moment for Kerry.

Kerry can be good, but he doesn't have nearly the oomph Clark has when it comes to beating Bush and uniting the country.

[zulchzulu]

22. Clark can have Moore's endorsement

Clark should have known that Moore was going to pull out the controversial headline grabber by calling Bush a "deserter".

Kerry will use Bush's AWOL record as an issue if he is the nominee. He just won't blast it out like some junior league rookie.

[creativelcro]

23. Kerry cannot be a uniter because he's basically elitist.

[Name removed]

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[creativelcro]

38. Sure I have. And so have many colleagues of mine.

He's elitist. From a Boston person who's not gonna vote for Kerry.

[KC21304]

27. I think Clark is a great guy and would love to see him VP

but do you really think Moore's calling Bush a deserter should have been affirmed ? Clark better than anyone could have explained the difference between desertion and being AWOL and he had a great opportunity to do so. And Kerry has already brought up Bush's absence in the past and I am sure he will again. I don't think you can blame this gaffe on Kerry. And I said right away on this board, that the word desertion was the wrong one to use.

[denverbill]

24. Maybe so, but the memes on Dean got lame about 3 months ago.

That didn't stop people from posting them day after day after day.

IMO, Rove has got something on Kerry. I don't know what, but mark my words, it will come out after the convention. Rove has been planning to go against Kerry since January 2001. He has yet to run an 'anti-Kerry' ad, as they did in Iowa against Dean.

Kerry was probably my top pick in 2001, but he has some pretty hefty baggage for me. I am still a bit incredulous that he was one of the few to vote against the Iraq war in 1991, a war which was perfectly justified to protect Kuwait's national sovereignty (IMO), then vote for the war in 2002. I also don't particularly care for the Skull & Bones thing, or the fact that he's married to the ketchup heiress.

He's certainly a war hero, and a hero for speaking against the war. IMO, if he had voted for the Iraq war in 1991, he would've run for President and won in 1992, sparing us the Clinton legacy.

Unfortunately, it appears Dean has finally been dragged down by the insiders, and it looks like the nomination is now Kerry's to lose. If he is hiding something, he'd better damn well be sure that it really is a secret, because if Rove blindsides us in October, I will be fucking pissed.

[JohnKleeb]

32. I understand Bill but youre wrong about Gulf War I

Most of the party including Kerry was against it, in the senate at least. Al Gore was a rare democrat for the war though. I wish I could provide with you a link but I searched and I couldnt find the Persian Gulf War I declaration. I thought the attacks on Dean were BS somewhat too, but old saying is two wrongs dont make a right.

[KC21304]

39. Here is a link on the vote.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=102&session=1&vote=00002



Shelby AL is now REpublican. May be others.

[emulatorloo]

35. Gulf War I - war for oil: Gulf War II - Saddam has WMDs and will Nuke us

that's as simple as I can make it. I know that it is a simplification, but saying that IWR is a vote for unilateral war is a simplification too.

Dean frames the argument as anti-war vs anti-war, but that is not the right framework.

Kerry is not for wars for oil. Kerry is against bad people having bad weapons and trying to hurt us. Always has been, always will be

[JohnKleeb]

36. I dont like his IWR vote

but as Ive said, I really think of the "top tier" candiates he is the least hawkish. I tend to be very dovish, so I have a problem with Gulf War I but I need to learn more, I am a party minority in opposing Kosovo( please do not ask me about it, its quite personal), and I opposed this war. I dont like Kerry's IWR vote but I do like a lot of the other things he has done.

[israruth]

31. Kerry failed to oppose right-wing agenda

Kerry voted for the Patriot Act, the No Child Left Behind Act and the Iraq War. He did not vote against the Medicare reform legislaton or the omnibus spending bill which eliminated overtime pay for some workers. Kerry has even opposed increasing the minimum wage.

When the Republicans took over Congress in 1994, Kerry said that he was "delighted with seeing an institutional shake-up because I think we need one."

The Democratic party needs someone who will oppose the right-wing agenda, not appease it.

[Cuban_Liberal]

34. All transmitted information is memetic, by definition.

Unless it causes them to alter their behavior, there's nothing inherently insidious about this.

'Meme' is the most overused and least understood word at DU.

[Name removed]

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[ibegurpard]

40. They may be lame

but I cannot sell something I don't believe in. While Kerry might be marginally better than Bush, he is firmly ensconced in the Washington power structure and has shown me that he will do nothing to stop the influence of corporate and other special interests in the political process. He'll probably get my vote if we're foolish enough to select him as the nominee but that's it and I believe Bush will wipe the floor with him.

[emulatorloo]

44. Kerry "marginally" better than Bush?

I'm sorry, this is just fantastically unsupportable. . .

compare records on

environment
women's issues
gay rights

and get back to me

Look at Kerry's endorsement and Look at Ws endorsements and get back to me.

[sistersofmercy]

41. Hey Pete, I'm actually quite fond of the insider vs outsider memes

I say let them post as many as they like so that we can snicker as the "insiders" in each state endorse Kerry. In addition, it's a completely hilarious position to take, "I'm a Washington outsider who wants to be a Washington insider" a campaign kiss of the death imo.
:cry: :cry: :cry: over spilled milk. :7

[KC21304]

43. You are right on, Sister.

[snyttri]

47. It's lame to conclude too much from the N.H. vitual home-state primary.

Mass. media have saturated N.H. to the extent that Mass. newspapers are forced to editorialize about N.H. ballot measures.