Why all the posts about how we should "use" "swiftboat" "make up

[applegrove]

talking points" and other tools the GOP uses? Why all of a sudden?

We are adults. We fight like adults. With the 'speaking truth to power', with strength, with discernment & empathy, and with responsibility and might. That is how adults fight for what is important. That is how WWII was won.

We have nothing to learn from them.

Their patterns of disinformation have gone on so long that the patterns are obvious. Why - just when people are finally seeing all that and getting angry and frustrating and the Rove machine - do some DUers insist on apeing the monsters? And their behaviour?

We do not teach our people to be adolescents and take pleasure in twisting the truth or the issues? This is not a game.

Am I alone in noticing a sudden DU threads with "tools of manipulation" in the title threads?

[DarienComp]

1. who has suggested that we make things up?

nt

[applegrove]

7. I still say we have nothing to learn from Repuke fixers. Otherwise

why would anyone vote for the dems if they are just as full of parsing, using, talking-points as the GOP?

I'm not going down to their level. I will not let apathy change my view on the important on reality, true expertise, etc.

[Coyul]

2. Where?

I haven't seen any of that.

[ewagner]

3. Respectfully disagree

Actually it's all about communicating our position to the public in a way that will appeal to them...on several different levels.

I think it was in Lakoff's book that he pointed out that Democrats have suffered under a vital misconception during the last few elections. That was: The Truth Shall Set You Free! That is, by simply telling the truth, Democrats thought (and still think) that is sufficient to winning over the opinion of the electorate. Republicans KNOW this is a fallacy and so they resort to appeals on a very EMOTIONAL LEVEL to win converts. They rely upon fear and inborn prejudice to solidify their base. Hence, our appeal has to be not only the truth, but also the EMOTIONAL truth.

For that reason, I can't condemn any thread that tells us to reframe the issues but I will condemn those who exort us to LIE.

:hi:

[applegrove]

4. Or to personally attack others. Or to "use" something like Katrina

when Katrina pretty much speaks for herself & the victims even if the President doesn't.

Adults fight differently that adolescents. Parsing events and implying parsing of events somehow implies that we are not really interested in the events themselves.

No?

[Armstead]

5. You have to fight manipulation with manipulation

The GOP right wing is working overtime to manipulate this. We can't be so elevated that we wait until the images have been firmly implanted, as happened with 9-11.

And it's not manipulation if you believe what you're saying.

This is real simple. The conservative dismantling of government created a situation where a natural disaster became a man-made one.

The conservative philosophy created the social and economic conditions in which milliobns of peopel have long been consigned to Hell on Earth, regardless of the hurricane. Katrina just pulled off the covers to expose that.

The Bush administration are incompenent. They have taken a bad ideology and made it worse with bad leadership.

That's not manipulation. It's the simple truth. But that will never have any lasting impact, if the politicians who areelected to represent those truths sit on their hands and zip their lips, while the GOP are busy spinning to reinforce the phonmy reality that has brought them political success.

[TahitiNut]

6. "We have nothing to learn from them." I disagree in two areas.

(1) They've accommodated their far-right "extremists" and moved the political landscape to the right as a result. The establishment Democrats have attacked and marginalized the "leftists" who're nowhere near as far out as the right's edge, and have fractured the base.

What's to learn? Aim your guns to the RIGHT!! No matter WHERE you are on the (mythical) spectrum!!! "Centrist" Democrats? AIM TO THE RIGHT! "Moderate" Democrats?? AIM TO THE RIGHT! If the shells from the "left" of you fall short, INGORE THEM AND KEEP AIMING TO THE RIGHT!!!

(Sheesh!! Can I say it any more clearly???)


(2) They speak out, even in the most outrageously false ways! They don't give a shit about attacks on what they say and just keep on firing!

It's is NOT necessary to speak falsehoods to gain a lesson from this. Keep speaking out! Call 'em what they are: Fascists! If that attracts fire, GOOD! It also attracts attention. It "gets ink!" It's the truth! The truth can be spoken harshly! Be harsh! They deserve it! Politics is NOT the arena in which to heed Mommy's advice "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." Stop being "nice"!! If that makes you uncomfortable, then either stop attacking those on your side who can do it or get the hell out of today's politics.

For those who argue for "unity" -- I say that requires two to tango! The right proclaims they're uniters ... and keep on sucking in the deluded. They're NOT uniters. They attack the left RELENTLESSLY. Unity takes both sides. Unity cannot be done unilaterally -- that's called SURRENDER!

[applegrove]

8. I disagree. Dems remaining silent - but working behind the scenes

on Katrina - will keep the issue from becoming just another political banana the monkey can peel and throw around.

[TahitiNut]

9. Who on the left thinks they can control what the Chimp says or does???

Hiding from the "political bananas" the Chimp might throw is merely cowardice!

That's the abused spouse syndrome! "No, officer, he didn't hit me." (I have to take care of the kids.) "If I do better, he'll stop beating me!"

That's never worked. Ever.

[MsMagnificent]

10. We don't HAVE to make things up

but there's nothing wrong with fighting fire with fire!

In case you haven't noticed, our "speaking truth" is LOSING.
We can still Speak Truth, but it's high time we got the coverage that the Bushco pundits and cheerleaders do!

Our message is LOST. We are inundated on every side by the formidable propaganda machine the Republicans have built.

Quite plainly, we are INEFFECTIVE.

By both these faults, we are not supporting our Democratic elected officials -- as much as we complain they don't DO anything, they have no support; for they are attacked and ridiculed on every side and any TRUTH we try to defend them, in our "civilized" and 'Oh-so-gentle wo/manly-way' with is immediately gone with the wind'!

The British soldiers, when invading the colonies, knew only one way to fight... from their time-honored tradition on the battlefields of Europe which for those venues worked just fine. Things were different here. The American Revolutionaries found a better much more effective way, and the British troops were too ensconced in 'that's how we've always done it' to adapt to the circumstances.
Does that tell you anything?

We can still speak TRUTH (if we didn't, we wouldn't be Democrats!) AND adapt their methods -- there's nothing wrong with that!

And with the Truth and Honor I hold with being a Democrat, I see NO problems whatsoever going after Frist, Delay, Cheney, even Bush with Swiftboat tactics. None at all, if our contentions are TRUE (unlike the Swiftboat Veterans).
It's too damn bad they get to taste their own form of medicine. Boo-hoo.

I've lost ALL pity for them, and if you look around at this country and the world, the stakes and death and tragedy are much too high to be concerned with being a top-notch gentleman all the time!

The Repukes know we're like this, and have been counting on it.
Well, as far as I'm concerned, the gloves are off. Like the American Revolutionaries, I'm all for guerilla tactics if they're warranted (which in this case they are) and they work (ibid).

[Lecky]

11. Fantastic point

The thing I find most disgusting about the Republican party is the way they twist everything or lie in order to make their opposition look bad.

If the Democrats start doing that I will be just as disgusted. I can't stand men like Karl Rove because of how low he will go in order to win an election...when the Karl Roves of this world start infiltrating my party I won't be defending them either.