Bush busy pumping contaminated water into Lake Ponchartrain and/or

[FormerRepublican]

the Mississippi River. Considering the fact that there's already a huge dead zone at the outlet of the Mississipi in the Gulf of Mexico, I keep wondering what impact that will have on the area.

I suspect we'll be looking at Bush's next disaster.

To quote from the CDC, here's some of the stuff that's already been showing up in survivors because of the flood waters:

"WASHINGTON - Four people may have died of a waterborne bacterial infection circulating in Hurricane Katrina's flood waters, and health officials took steps Tuesday to stem spread of a diarrhea-causing virus among refugees in Houston's Astrodome.

The deaths appear to have been caused by Vibrio vulnificus, a germ common in warm Gulf Coast waters that's usually spread by eating contaminated food but that can penetrate open wounds, too. The deaths — one a hurricane refugee evacuated to Texas, the other three in Mississippi — were attributed to wound infections, said Tom Skinner, spokesman for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which received the reports from officials in the two states."

http://tinyurl.com/8ekc4

There are cases of dysentary that are breaking out, people are getting boils and abcesses, cuts are becoming infected.

And now their pumping all that lovely water out into the environment so the contamination can spread even more broadly. Lovely. I wonder if Bush thought about the fact that those contaminated waters would impact oil workers in the Gulf of Mexico. But perhaps he's counting on that to keep oil prices high - lord knows he couldn't actually give a single thought for the 'little people.'

"BATON ROUGE, Louisiana (Reuters) -- The toxic brew of chemicals and human waste in the New Orleans floodwaters will have to be pumped into the Mississippi River or Lake Pontchartrain, raising the specter of an environmental disaster on the heels of Hurricane Katrina, experts say.

The dire need to rid the drowned city of water could trigger fish kills and poison the delicate wetlands near New Orleans and the Gulf of Mexico at the mouth of the Mississippi. (Full story)

State and federal agencies have just begun water quality testing but environmental experts say the vile, stagnant chemical soup that sits in the streets of the city will contain traces of everything imaginable."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/09/06/katrina.water.reut/index.html

This story just gets worse and worse and worse.

Lord I hope Fitzgerald is worth his pay.

[William769]

1. Not sticking up for anyone here but...

What the hell do you want them to do with it?

[FormerRepublican]

3. Well, how does pumping it out into the environment help if people..

...are still going to be contaminated by it? Isn't the whole idea of evacuating people from New Orleans so they won't get sick from the flood waters, and that's why the Mayor is ordering a MANDATORY evac?

So, what happens when all the people go back and all the surrounding water is contaminated? It'll be like Chernobyl. A dead zone. Go in only if you want to get sick from the contamination.

[William769]

5. Once again I will ask, what do we do with it.

IMHO some things just can't be helped.

[BrklynLiberal]

9. Thermal Depolymerization

[William769]

13. Do we have any of those plants?

If so where? If not, how long would it be to build one?

[BrklynLiberal]

16. check it out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2884070&mesg_id=2884070
....................................................................
could it take on the diversity of impurity it will encounter in NO?
TDP can handle anything except radioactives.
The heat even kills the prions that cause mad cow disease.


and along with the oil (something like a light crude #4 IIRC), it produces sterilized water.

For the naysayers who say the Dems never have any new ideas, I think this one's a winner.

http://www.kantor.com/useful/thermo.shtml

Thermodepolymerization -- or "thermal depolymerization" -- is a process that converts stuff into oil. And by "stuff" I mean just about anything: garbage, medical waste, animals and animal parts (e.g., cows with mad-cow disease, or offal from chickens that have been made into McNuggets), used computer parts, tires, and so on, seemingly ad infinitum.

This is not just a theoretical process. It is real, out-of-the-lab stuff happening on an industrial scale. It's being done by ConAgra Foods in Carthage, Missouri -- at one of the company's Butterball Turkey plants, where up to 200 tons of turkeys are being turned into oil every day.

Once more: This is real stuff. Garbage is being turned into oil by a process that's safe, clean, and in use today.

Essentially, thermal depolymerization or TDP mimics a process the earth itself uses to 'process' what gets buried and break it down. Over millions of years, heat and pressure break the bonds that hold these waste products together. TDP accelerates the process. The leading company doing TDP is Changing World Technologies of West Hempstead, N.Y.

[William769]

18. Thanks for the link.

[FormerRepublican]

14. Well, given the fact that the flood waters are somewhat contained in...

...New Orleans, and pumping it into the environment contaminates a much broader area, don't you think it's better to leave the water where it is until someone can come up with a plan to limit the worst of the worst in the water? What do they do to water that's municipally treated on a large scale? Can any of those methods be adapted to limit damage to the larger environment that might make a shorter term problem (less than 1 year) into a longer term problem (for the forseeable multi-year future)? ANY treatment of the water would be better than just pumping the stuff as is.

For example, could small amounts of water purification chemicals be added to the water as it's pumped through to kill some of the germs in the water without damaging the larger environment? Can solids be separated into a holding area of some sort? Even if only SOME of the water could be treated prior to pumping it into the environment, it would add to dilution and reduce the scale of the contamination.

[Pepperbelly]

25. No, the whole point of getting them out is ...

because there are ZERO basic services and will be none for months.

They gotta put it somewhere and they need to do it pretty damned fast. Just my opinion but I do not know what else they could do with it. Hell, it came from Ponchatrain anyway which isn't necessarily my favorite place to swim under the best of circumstances.

[BrklynLiberal]

8. Thermal Depolymerization

[SoCalDemocrat]

35. They don't have a choice

From what I've read they don't have a choice.

Yes it will harm the lake. It will aslo enable the city to become habitable again.

[Lindacooks]

2. I had a thread going about this earlier and here's one of the

responses:

http://www.solidwastemag.com/article.asp?id=47051&issue...

Overlooked in many news reports about the unfolding storm disaster in the southern United States, especially in the City of New Orleans, in the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, is a potentially dramatic pollution issue related to a toxic landfill that sits under the flood waters right in the city's downtown, according to map overlays of the flooded area. The situation could exacerbate the already dire threat to human health and the environment from the flood waters.

The Agriculture Street Landfill (ASL) is situated on a 95-acre site in New Orleans, Orleans Parish, Louisiana. The ASL is a federally registered Superfund site, and is on the National Priorities List of highly contaminated sites requiring cleanup and containment. A few years ago the site, which sits underneath and beside houses and a school, was fenced and covered with clean soil. However, three feet or more of flood waters could potentially cause the landfill's toxic contents – the result of decades of municipal and industrial waste dumping – to leach out.

[FormerRepublican]

6. I'm starting to wonder if the environmental damage will make New..

..Orleans uninhabitable even after the water is pumped out.

What's the worst that's underground in the Superfund site - chemicals, radiation, or what? It's probably already leaching. Is that worse than pumping the water into the environment (assuming pumping the water out limits the leaching from the Superfund site)?

[BrklynLiberal]

12. They will build on it anyway, and it will end up another Love Canal 50

years down the road.

[BrklynLiberal]

10. Thermal Depolymerization

[MrSlayer]

4. I would suggest that Bush, his followers and all his voters drink it all.

To get rid of it safely. Other than that you can just add it to the list of calamities caused by this bozo because there is nothing else that can be done.

[BrklynLiberal]

11. Actually THAT is the best idea.

[BrklynLiberal]

7. A great suggestion to clean the mess:Thermal Depolymerization

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4643766

[Up2Late]

15. I'm not saying that this is good or O.K., but the volume of water as...

...compaired to Lake Ponchartrain is not that great, and most of the fuel is very light, which will evaporate quickly.

Most of the other stuff that is dangerous and even deadly to Humans (Dead animals, dead and rotting human flesh) is not that bad for most fish. The dead animals will be eaten by the fish and the birds, etc.

Most of the fecal matter (shit) will be eaten by the micro bacteria in at the bottom of the lake.

If you ever set up a tropical fish tank, you will see that some people choose not to use a Charcoal filter system, but instead use a flow through, under gravel filter, that uses the bacterial filter to eliminate most of the fecal matter.

[FormerRepublican]

17. It's contaminated with chemicals, too.

[Up2Late]

21. Yes, but they are being diluted by billions of gallons of water

The only thing that will be any threat in the near future is Heavy Metals, which will sink to the bottom, and could be dredged out later if it did cause a problem.

The "Dead Zone" in the gulf is caused by synthetic Fertilizers run-off, that causes a massive Algae bloom.

[Lindacooks]

28. Then why are people who waded in it showing chemical burns?

For some chemicals, a few parts per million or billion are very toxic. Dilution won't help.

[Up2Late]

29. "...why are people who waded in it showing chemical burns?!?

Because it's un-diluted!!!

And who is saying these are chemical burns? Got a link?

Is it possible these people have Sun Burns? They may have been out in the sun for Days. :eyes:

[Lindacooks]

31. Sun Burns? Give me a break.

I think doctors and nurses know the difference between sun burns and chemical burns. I heard it on CNN. And the toxins will NOT be that diluted. As I said before, many of these chemicals have a 'safety threshold' of single digit parts per million.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/09/06/katrina.water.reut/index.html

[Up2Late]

34. Theirs nothing in that article about people...

...showing up with chemical burns!

If you don't have something credible and in writing, your just spreading rumors.

[Lindacooks]

36. Here's a link.

http://www.thetandd.com/articles/2005/09/04/news/doc431a8231ce849178599937.txt

By the way, it's spelled 'there's' and 'you're'.

[Up2Late]

39. O.K. that's ONE mother's opinion of "A burn," which is most likely wrong,

Where's the other accounts by "...doctors and nurses...?"

You wrote, "...I think doctors and nurses know the difference between sun burns and chemical burns..." Where's that link? The link you gave is a quote from a hysterical mother, who's "white" skinned son "...was swept from his home into the Gulf of Mexico."

"Charles spent seven hours in the Gulf of Mexico swimming around before finally being rescued...,"

SEVEN HOURS! I don't know if you've ever spent SEVEN HOURS in the Gulf Coast sun without Sunscreen but, anyone with white skin would have an extremely bad sun burn after even 3 hours in the summer Gulf Coast sun!

I have spent a lot of time in the sun down there, and have seen a lot of very bad Sun Burns on my fair skinned friends, some of which turned out to be Second and Third degree burns, according to the DOCTORS that treated them.

This guy has NOT been seen by a doctor! It says so in that article!

"...Although relieved that Charles and his family made it through the killer hurricane, Mrs. Taylor said she and her husband are now worried about the unsanitary conditions in which their loved ones are having to live in the aftermath of Katrina.

"He (Charles) has chemical burns all over his body (from toxic waste in the water) and can't get medical help," she said. "We are afraid that infections are going to set in if he does not get help soon...."

And, By the way, I doubt the mother even said that it was "from toxic waste in the water!" The reporter added the that to the mothers quote, probably to sensationalize the article. I can tell that it was added by the parentheses the assumed "toxic waste" comment is contain within.

So, now I ask, where is the links to these accounts of, "...people who waded in it showing chemical burns..." that you scolded me with, wading thought the water in New Orleans, not Bay St. Louis, Mississippi, which is at least 50 miles away from New Orleans?

By the way, people is the plural of person, meaning more than ONE person, and also, Accounts, which is the plural of an account, as in several accounts. Plural.

And, why the hell is this ONE South Carolina Newspaper the only one who published this report? And why is "Correspondent Lisa B. Stokes" filing this story from BAMBERG, South Carolina? This story has enough holes in it to sink the Titanic.

If you don't have links to these "accounts" by "...doctors and nurses..." of "people" plural, then you are just spreading rumors and contributing to the problem of false information which I, and a lot of people here, have a problem with and are fighting against.

Oh, By the way, screw you on correcting my punctuation and word usage. It was after 5:00am here when I posted that, after wasting too much time trying to find something that would confirm or debunk you silly rumor.

[Lindacooks]

32. There already ARE 'billions of gallons' of water in New Orleans.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/09/06/katrina.water.reut/index.html

[BrklynLiberal]

20. TDP can handle it

could it take on the diversity of impurity it will encounter in NO?
TDP can handle anything except radioactives.
The heat even kills the prions that cause mad cow disease.


and along with the oil (something like a light crude #4 IIRC), it produces sterilized water.

For the naysayers who say the Dems never have any new ideas, I think this one's a winner.

http://www.kantor.com/useful/thermo.shtml

Thermodepolymerization -- or "thermal depolymerization" -- is a process that converts stuff into oil. And by "stuff" I mean just about anything: garbage, medical waste, animals and animal parts (e.g., cows with mad-cow disease, or offal from chickens that have been made into McNuggets), used computer parts, tires, and so on, seemingly ad infinitum.

This is not just a theoretical process. It is real, out-of-the-lab stuff happening on an industrial scale. It's being done by ConAgra Foods in Carthage, Missouri -- at one of the company's Butterball Turkey plants, where up to 200 tons of turkeys are being turned into oil every day.

Once more: This is real stuff. Garbage is being turned into oil by a process that's safe, clean, and in use today.

Essentially, thermal depolymerization or TDP mimics a process the earth itself uses to 'process' what gets buried and break it down. Over millions of years, heat and pressure break the bonds that hold these waste products together. TDP accelerates the process. The leading company doing TDP is Changing World Technologies of West Hempstead, N.Y.

[bluetrain]

19. Late Pontchartrain was finally safe to swim in again. I was clam digging

there in July.

[babylonsister]

41. I had no idea clams could grow in lakes! nt

[stellanoir]

22. It'll kill the Gulf for at least a century

if not terminally and will have catastrophic effects on the global environment. It should be pumped into tankers until decontamination plants can be established. This is a colossal crime against nature and the world. IMHO

[Up2Late]

24. No, now your just being silly, It will not "Kill the Gulf"

It might kill part of the Lake Ponchartrain for a few years, but it WILL recover.

Swamp Lands are like One massive filtering system, most of the damage will be contained within the lake and can be fixed later if it doesn't recover on it's own.

If all the Pollution and crap that flows into the Gulf, by the Ton every day, from the Mississippi River hasn't yet "killed the Gulf," This won't either.

[stellanoir]

27. I hope you're right.

Am just so sickened by the color of that water and the scientists reports of so many contaminants, can only imagine that the effects will be huge. Maybe I'm over reacting but I would think a more competant government would have dealt with it differently, and there are so many dead zones already in the Gulf.

[Lindacooks]

33. That isn't 'being silly' at all.

Read the news:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/09/06/katrina.water.reut/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/09/06/katrina.water/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/09/05/katrina.wetlands.ap/index.html

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article310814.ece

"Toxicologists and public health experts warned yesterday that pumping billions of gallons of contaminated water from the streets of New Orleans back into the Gulf of Mexico - the only viable option if the city is ever to return to even a semblance of its former self -would have a crippling effect on marine and animal life, compromise the wetlands that form the first line of resistance to future hurricanes, and carry deleterious consequences for human health throughout the region."

And quit spewing talking points. This IS an unprecedented environmental disaster, besides being a catastrophic human disaster.

[trof]

37. I beg to differ.

From the Mississippi delta, the Yucatan Current flows westward and the Florida Current flows eastward. These currents tend to keep outflow relatively close to shore. They will now contain heavy metals, benzene, ecoli, and worse. Alabama commercial fishermen and shrimpers have already said this is probably the death knell for their industries.

I live in Baldwin County, AL, on the gulf. Our two main industries are seafood and tourism. I don't think tourists will want to come to polluted beaches.

[Up2Late]

40. That's a LOT different than "Killing the Gulf" it's a temporary problem

By the time you folk rebuild the buildings that were destroyed, the tourists will come back, I know I will.

And every interview with the Shrimp and Oyster fishermen I've heard said it would take about 3 years for the fishing areas to recover.

Heavy metals will sink to the bottom of Lake Ponchartrain and can be dredged out later, Ecoli is Oyster food, and Benzine will evaporate in a short period of time.

All the synthetic and organic farm fertilizer run-off flowing out from Gulf Coast rivers are a far bigger problem to the Gulf. These cause massive algae blooms that suffocate the shellfish.

The water is not the major problem, the left over sludge will be.

The sludge and muck left at the end is going to big problem, I hope they don't start dumping that into the lake or the wetlands, that would be very bad, but that's weeks away.

[Kali]

23. the water around there is and has been heavily polluted for decades

hence the name Chemical Alley.

[Up2Late]

26. Exactly. If anyone wants to see the REAL problem areas in the Gulf

and have a Fast Internet connection, check out the some of these Satellite images of the Gulf coast. Check out this one at the link below:

<http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/gallery/?search=Southern+United+States&date=> (It's the ninth thumbnail down on that page.)

Date: 2002/310 - 11/06
2002310-1106/SouthernUS.A2002310.1715

17 :15 UTC
Southern United States
Satellite: Terra



Look at all the nasty crap that is flowing out of Texas and South-West Louisiana. Now that is BAD Stuff, looks like Oil and industrial sludge. Lake Ponchartrain is on the far right of the picture.

NOW, for a better look at the mouth of the Mississippi, check out one of these:

Date: 2004/070 - 03/10
2004070-0310/UnitedStates.A2004070.1925

19 :25 UTC
Fires across Southern United States
Satellite: Aqua (4th one down)




Date: 2003/294 - 10/21
2003294-1021/Mississippi.A2003294.1640

16 :40 UTC
Fires across Southern United States
Satellite: Terra (5th one down)



Now, the amount of silt and pollution flowing out (as seen in these two shots), mostly depend on the amount of Snow Melt or rain up river from the Gulf.

<http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/gallery/?search=Southern+United+States&date=>

[applegrove]

30. They got approval from the Environmental group. They promised

to test the waters (?) as they evacuated it and would divert that stuff laden with toxins somewhere else. I don't quite know how that will work exactly. I don't know. If some homes can be saved. If epidemics can be stopped.

What horrors simply not fixing the levy did.

[gulfcoastliberal]

38. What's another 10000 yards of coastal wetland loss?

"The swamps and marshes of coastal Louisiana are among the Nation's most fragile and valuable wetlands, vital not only to recreational and agricultural interests but also the State's more than $1 billion per year seafood industry. The staggering annual losses of wetlands in Louisiana are caused by human activity as well as natural processes. U.S. Geological Survey scientists are conducting important studies that are helping planners to understand the life cycle of wetlands by detailing the geologic processes that shape them and the coast, and by providing geologic input to models for mitigation strategies."

S. Jeffress Williams, U.S. Geological Survey

Louisiana's 3 million acres of wetlands are lost at the rate about 75 square kilometers annually, but reducing these losses is proving to be difficult and costly.

http://marine.usgs.gov/fact-sheets/LAwetlands/lawetlands.html

Oh well! Dig oil wells!

[Up2Late]

42. Correct, but that is caused by a different problem

The wetland loss is due to the Levees. That channel the rivers flood waters away from the wetlands and the plants that they consist of.

Thus, the silt no longer builds up, and without the silt, the plants become nutritionally staved and die, dead plants no longer hold the soil, so what doesn't wash away, sinks in the rising sea.

That is a huge problem that no politician wants to deal with for numerous reasons.