Not all Dems believe that Diebold stole votes by software. I believe

[applegrove]

Diebold is a tool to divide Dems. Repukes are too smart to use diebold to steal votes. Machines are used for voter suppression by not putting enough of them out - or by creating apathy because there is no transparency and people do not trust them. Then it gets "sexed up" with all the interfearance during recounts.

If you stay home because you believe in the diebold conspiracy - they have won. Their machines actually worked.

If you volunteer in the 2006 elections and get into a fight with a moderate Dem about the machines..so that you do not fight well together - voter suppression is the result.

Repukes only play in voter suppression. There is not way to prosecute them when the Democrat who wouldn't wait in line for 5 hours ... when the exit polls said the Dems were winning that district ... decided themselves not to vote.

Don't teach others not to vote.

Diebold is a tool. But not used in the way you think. Why who would make up a name for a machine that had a basis in latin for evil? Unless they thought it would help us be wedged apart.

Voter suppression is the issue. All Democrats should be taught that anything that makes you think for a second about 'not voting' is a tool to suppress your vote.

Exit polls, the seemingly evil & non-transparent diebold machine, long lines, threats to vet only felons of on voting block, apathy, intimidation at the polls, aggressive suppression of recounts by election officials, wedges that will make Democratic volunteers squabble between themselves over 'exactly how evil is G.B & the neocon machine, lack of transparency, ID laws, phone jamming of election phone banks, etc. etc.

Anything that makes anyone think "aw I should not bother voting" should be an alarm bell.

[rooboy]

1. Ok. Then prove to us that Diebold accurately counted the votes. n/t

[applegrove]

5. Well - we don't yet have the smoking gun that says (by software) the

diebold stole votes. And it is new technology so it is expected and predictable that people would not trust it. Especially when there was so much voter suppression.

I just don't think that GOP is stupid enough to play with the software. Voter suppression is much more subtle and un-prosecutable.

I guess I am saying..that when it comes time to vote - we all have to be together - irregardless of how much we think they stole votes.

And I for one do no believe they stole votes using the software of diebold. And I want you to get used to that because - come election time, when all are working hard to "get the vote out", wherever we are, we will all run into each other and have to work together.

[shraby]

10. If they didn't jigger the results, why is the software

proprietary? Not to be seen by anyone.

[cyclezealot]

7. By law, you have no right to expect your vote be counted..

Speak for yourself. Seems I recall like 25% of Americans don't trust vote counting..I am sure the percentage is much higher among Democrats....
A private entity is now counting your votes with no expectation of public accountability..Enough to make me vurious. "Pripretatory Rights' so Diebold says..They have no frickin right to not be accountable. If Repugs had Democrats solely couting the votes they would be in a state of rebellion.Diebold is a Repug affiliate.
You are not suspicious you have your head burried in the sand. and , yest there are been many suspicious vote counts..

[applegrove]

8. Oh - I worry about hand recounts. Look at Florida. I believe in all

the other reports of voter suppression and manipulation. I just don't happen to believe Diebold is actually stealing votes by software. That is the one thing - I just don't buy. I am for paper ballots. I am for voter transparency action & laws. All the rest I am for.

[cyclezealot]

9. Since they are doing the public's business.Q

They need be required to share their software's 'propriatary rights' with public agencies that are charged with counting the votes...
You are right, Paper ballots offer an obvious paper trail.

[cyclezealot]

17. Yes. Apple..Yes-Repugs use all methods to not get out the vote

But, with Paper ballots you have something to recount unlike computer voting..that is just blind faith.

[applegrove]

20. And because it is blind-faith & new technology, & because we

know how evil the GOP machine is during elections, some don't & cannot trust the machines. And that pays off. I am all for voting transparency.

But I simply feel the "exit polls" are the easiest way for GOP to mess with voters minds. GOP is not stupid enough to mess with software. They are smart enough to exploit our lack of trust with new machines.

Just like with Katrina - don't be looking for the GOP to "solve" the voter transparency issues any time soon. They don't solve problems when it suits them. Why - did they ever try to heal the fear after 9/11? FDR did on that very first day after Pearl Harbour. Bush & his crew don't solve issues that pay off in wedges or fear. Doling out as many kinds of fear as their are groups in opposition to them results in people who perceive the world differently from each other. You & I fight not on voter transparency & election tricks, but on diebold alone. Now the CBC and many AA voters have some wedges within their own selves. Some African Americans will see institutional racism, some will see less. And non African Americans will have other experiences of Katrina.

It is about smashing the opposition to pieces. Fear rises to the top in our minds - we are built that way as human beings. And various fears give us various takes on the issues and life.

We need to own these fears. You think diebold happened, I don't. Let's be ready for the elections to come and accept these different fears in each other. So we can work together. So we will not fight amongst ourselves.

[cyclezealot]

26. The GOP is not the one rigging PC voting.

It is their rich henchmen at the software companies.

[Yupster]

30. You can't prove a negative

Ever.

Prove Bigfoot doesn't exist.

It's impossible. No matter how many places or ways you search, there will always be another place or another way you haven't searched yet.

If every inch of earth were scoured, sans Bigfoot, you would still not proven that he didn't exist as some would argue that he's a metaphysical being who can come and go between dimensions.

Asking that someone prove a conspiracy didn't happen is just logically illogical.

[cyclezealot]

31. We don't have to prove they did or didn't

The problem is the system can't be verified and no company that has a contract to do something as significant as counting ballots , should think it methods need not be scrutinized in its conduct of the public's business...
You do not think Diebold has a requirement to prove its' methods; then guess you logically must think 'no bid' contracts for Halliburton is ok?

[Der Blaue Engel]

2. No one here is "staying home because of Diebold" or telling anyone else to

We are fighting like hell to stop them, and we're going to vote anyway. This is not a conspiracy theory. Please read 2004 Election Results. If we don't stop Diebold and get voter verified auditable paper ballots, they will continue to "win."

All of the things you mention are part of the equation, but they don't make the theft any less true.

[applegrove]

6. My point is not everyone thinks the theft was there. So get ready

for many takes on what exactly the GOP machine stole. Hearts & minds, exit polls are my two peeves.

Let's get used to each other. :pals: Even though we do not agree exactly.. on very emotional issues.

Just a bit of practice.

okay - that's all I wanted to say.

[formernaderite]

15. Why do dem run counties, districts or states use them?

This is what hurts the argument...particularly with fraud. If the district is controlled by dems...why would they be trying to supress their own voters?

[Der Blaue Engel]

18. Because people refuse to believe it has gone this far

I don't blame some of the disbelievers...it's a scary truth. Dems aren't trying to suppress their own voters, they just don't see the threat.

[MercutioATC]

3. What category do you fall into if you just vote?

Whenever you involve computers, there's a record of what's been done. My precinct used punch cards in 2004 (I don't know if we're changing in 2006 or 2008). Even if we HAD used Diebold machines, any tampering would have left a record...


I'm all for paper verification but I don't buy into the "the 2004 election was stolen" thing.

[applegrove]

4. I'm not saying we don't have to fight for voter transparency laws.

All of that is important. But we need a bill of rights to go out before the election. Something that will convince voters to never stand down. To wait till Tuesday morning. To vote at all cost.

[Time for change]

25. Fine, punch cards leave records

And when we tried to recount those records in Ohio, do you know what happened? There was no full recount of the Ohio vote because Kenneth Blackwell made sure that there would be none.

Please take a look at this thread, section 6 (or any other section for that matter) and tell me what part you disagree with:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2052179&mesg_id=2052179

[Griffy]

11. yea.. and some Americans think we found WMDs..

just because some people cant handle the sad fact that this election was rigged doesnt mean its not so... they did it, get over it... I agree to get all the people we can to the poles, and having a system that is reliable will help alot!

Kerry won, and we will all suffer because not enough people understood (and still dont)that the results were rigged... :(

[applegrove]

21. Kerry may very easily have won if the line-ups were not so long &

if people had not been encouraged not to vote when "exit polls", illegal to publish on the day of the vote and very easy to mess with since they are not scientific..the sampling is not, were leaked all across the country by mid afternoon. It is voter suppression and it comes in many forms. We need to fight for transparent elections. I just don't personally believe diebold software is anything but a "scary thing" used to help suppress the vote by creating apathy and fear. It divides us.

I'm not telling you what to believe. I am saying we have different views on the diebold machine. So let's get used to it so we can come together in all the other ways during the next votes.

[Griffy]

29. nothing to come together on.. black box voting isnt voting...

The majority of people that cast votes that day voted for Kerry, the counting was rigged.. When YOU understand this we can move forward.. but if you think the count was correct, we have a problem... fortunatly you are someone mentally engaged in learning it seems, so in time all the facts will come to light.. and like the DSM proves the Iraq lies, and like GORE WON (you know this.. right?)... so will you someday KNOW that the vote was rigged and Kerry won.

What you choose to believe will not change reality, so it is not about opinion and choice... which are great... and we can discuss how to fix the system, but not if you think the machines were ok.

Denial is rampant even here on DU, but I understand the reluctance and how the crush of propaganda makes it hard to know whats true.. and our nature is to not go off the deep end, but I hope you can see, the people we are dealing with think big, like global domination... and they count on the fact most Americans will do mental gymnastics to not believe the obvious!

.. like bush doesnt care about black people... or the poor... or you or me!

[eridani]

12. Touchscreen voting can't help but suppress votes.

The reason is that, unlike optical scan tabulation, touchscreen voting slows the inherently fast tabulation process by linking it irrevocably with the inherently slow voting process. Just one person reading over voters' pamphlets and everything he got in the mail, checking everything three times to make sure, inserted into a line at noon or after work, automatically suppresses quite a few more votes.

With optical scanning, people don't even wait for privacy booths. In the school library where I was a poll worker, they spilled over into the stacks and study carrels when it got crowded. The much faster tabulation process of a scanner can handle 10 precincts easily. (Now, if only the software were not proprietary, we'd be all set.)

[WePurrsevere]

13. My husband is a now retired Tech (ATMs, Computers,etc) Voting software

(edited for spelling)

is "proprietary" (although there may very well be an open source program out there such as there is for web page hit counters) HOWEVER Diebold (and "family") is not the only company that makes machines that can be used for voting. Many if not most of the companies that make ATMs can make (and have made) a machine that can be used for voting and have their own software... Diebold, Interbold, IBM, Fujitsu and NCR are few.

Quite frankly until recently I hadn't asked my husband about this subject. Although I knew when Bush took Florida that they'd do it a again (and from something said back then I had a gut feeling that it would be Ohio next time)... I hadn't thought about HOW. When I saw the name Diebold here though it started the wheels churning so I recently asked my husband (elec/mech engineer) who repaired, amongst many other things, ATMs and computers for NCR. He said they wouldn't need to use software to cheat but it would make it easier to "cheat" since voting software is a very old rather basic tallying program.

It would be difficult to know exactly how someone cheated. According to him there are many ways to "cheat" voting machines, especially the electronic ones since there doesn't have to be a trail and they may have used more then one way to rig it. With the mechanical ones it's actually more difficult, although not 100% impossible, to cheat and get away with it.

Unless they've improved it a bit over the last few years since he's been "out" he wouldn't recommend an NCR voting machine but from what he knows it would be best if voting machines were set up similar to the way NCRs was (is?). NCR uses a paper trail. Much like a regular ATM there's a journal that logs everything a machine does and if it can not print the journal it shuts down for security reasons. It also gives a receipt of what was done so the voter can also verify that it was accepted correctly.

Although he says to his knowledge there is currently NO totally 100% fool proof way to get each and every vote counted he believes we CAN make it as close to perfect as possible because there is NO excuse for NOT having a verifiable voting system.

[sendero]

14. There have been too many suspicious numbers..

... to agree with you. Repubs would indeed steal votes, as long as there is no way on earth to catch them at it.

The long term answer to Diebold is to legislate a paper trail.

The short term is to trounce the Reps by 6-8% or more, a margin that simply cannot be overcome by stolen votes without it becoming obvious.

[applegrove]

22. When compared to "exit polls". The exit polls are not scientific

sampling. You simply ask people coming out from 100 feet away and to the left direction who they voted for. Easy to mess with.

[goddess40]

16. low tech methods were also used

In my home town the person in charge of sending out absentee ballots sent them without a return address.
The clerk in a town about 20 miles from here padded bush's total by 100 votes -no big deal you may think but it was 25% of their total.
How many other republicans took it upon themselves to fulfill the Republican motto "the ends justify the means"

[Toots]

19. It is the absence of paper ballots that is distressing

How can there be a reral recount without a paper trail? I am not convinced of a software problem myself but I am very disturbed by the lack of a paper trail. Without proper verification methods there will always be doubts. It is absolutely essential we have paper trails on every single ballot box. Even the right wing God St Ronnie said believe but verify. All I want is verification.

[applegrove]

23. Yes. I agree with all the fight for paper trails & voter transparency.

We must be together to fight for that. And then on the day we have to vote, in whatever manner we have to vote, we have to vote.

And in that second where you say to yourself - aw gees - what is the point.. an alarm bell should go off and you should say.."this is it - this is the moment I decide to not let my vote be suppressed". Whether it is a too long line up, apathy at diebold, an exit poll that "claims Dems have won your district", whatever it is. You walk to that poll if you have to. Through rain or snow or a hurricane. And you vote.

[peacetalksforall]

24. Applegrove - I don't believe in one word you wrote.

All the Republican corporations who built these machines, including Hagel's, have never been vetted by the people.

It is more important to continue to expose them so that something is done.

That includes the Republican corporate network and cable friends - Fox, etc, who:

. paid for the exit polling, then manipulated it.
. called the elections
. partnered with the right wing - Murdoch, Welch/GE, and all the others.

It is an atrocity that more people don't know that they turned over their vote to Republicans.

I think the opposite of you - I think we should go to the rooftops and scream our indignation and educate everyone we can.

We have such tiny voices because those who should be exposing this for us are the ones who are participating in the theft.

I am polar from you in the assessment of our predicament.

I consider my vote my number one right.

[applegrove]

27. You don't think we have to stick together despite our differing views

on one aspect of the election games they play? There is so much out there that we do agree on.

[Fozzledick]

28. Speaking as a Software Engineer:

My professional opinion is that the glaring omission of normal security measures and the concealment of source code indicate that these systems where deliberately designed to enable fraud.

[Zhade]

32. I believe you're not living in reality.

NT!