GOP baits Nancy Pelosi into being the sole Vocal critic. So they

[applegrove]

can then call this responce political.

Dems have not be critical enough. The only one standing up andreally yelling is Pelosi. They got her in a room, scared the hell out of her with a demonstration of reckless indifference & lying(which is scary) and now she is off and running. Suits the GOP well since the Democrats really had stood down and stayed quiet in order to not let this be turned into "just politics".

When cornered, a sociopath will provoke psychic trauma in a victim and then get others to watch that trauma in order to label the person "nuts".

In this case, they got Pelosi to start to criticize - vocally. Now they have the one Dem who really is being critical. That was missing all last week for the WH.

They scared the hell out of her, denied it, and now they use her anger & fear to paint the whole situation as "political". She was shaking when she came out of that meeting with Bush. Absolutely shacking.

So now the WH gets to "call" the dems on their criticism, when in actuality, there has been very, very little said by the Democrats.

[opihimoimoi]

1. Truth will ultimately prevail in the near term. BS is OUT and Sanity is in

Some kinda adults BushCo turned out to be....more like spoiled kids caught burging a neighbors house...

[emulatorloo]

2. pelosi is not the only one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4696435

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/08/national/nationalspecial/08democrats.html&OP=6fd44be5Q2FjQ5DQ2FBjDQ5Ct-wQ5CQ5CQ51SjSQ3FQ3FUjQ3FYjQ3FQ20jN!Q51rQ5CN!ijN!Q51rQ5CN!i-bQ2Ftr!ijQ3FQ20DQ2FHQ5Ctw!Q51-qdQ51Hi

etc etc

[applegrove]

3. The other Dems all responded with staid speeches and thoughtful

and diplomatic words. Nancy is the only one baited to tell it like it is.

Bush needed that. Now he can call it all "political" when the Dems were trying to keep above the fray and allow the facts to speak for themselves.

If I had been witness to Bush "excellent body language" and "callus words" - I would be screaming too.

It is meant to be terrifying.

[Dr Fate]

13. What was "unthoughtful" about anything Nancy said?

I dont get it.

[applegrove]

15. Not that she was not thoughtful - but they got her to respond with

emotion and they painted her as a liar or 'mis-reading' when in fact they had purposely shocked her.

What I mean is that the Dems comments have been frustratingly sober considering the situation and the outrage. But that is their job for now. To stand down, and let the people and the stories speak for themselves. So Bush cannot make himself look like a victim vs. the victims.

I agree with everything Nancy says.

[Dr Fate]

17. She handled it well. It is her word against Meltdown Scotty's.

Whatever you think Bush did to Nancy, it did not work.

It was one more American out of many on both sides, on TV, asking tough questions of Bush & The Horse whisperer.

[ElectroPrincess]

38. We don't have a true DEMOCRATIC party but far too many ...

Corporate Whores who talk a "democratic line" but VOTE to give the corporations and the wealthy WELFARE ... screwing the very constituents who elected them.

I say: NO MORE! Any Democrat who does not "speak out" will NOT get my vote in 2006. If we have to purge these gutless a**holes, then so be it. We couldn't suffer as a party any more than we have in the last 4+ years.

[applegrove]

40. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Sorry. But it doesn't.

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Pelosi can be tough and has the breeding to do it .....

..... here's a little tidbit on our House Leader .....

The first woman leader in Congress, Pelosi was the daughter of long-time Mayor of Baltimore Tommy D'Allesandro, who held that position throughout her growing-up years in Baltimore. Her father had served four terms in the U.S. House of Representatives prior to becoming mayor of her hometown.

[applegrove]

5. Still - Democrats should not meet with * anymore, unless they go in twos

or threes. Nobody should be left alone in a room with Bush or his Rovbots.

[emulatorloo]

6. excellent point -- and take a hidden tape recorder. . . .EOM

[Booster]

7. Absolutely. If Pelosi went into a meeting with Bush and other

Republicans, then that was a very stupid thing to do. Being a retired union member, we were ALWAYS told "if management calls you into a meeting, make sure you take a shop steward in with you". Really just common sense.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[confludemocrat]

9. "very little said by Democrats" ain't that the truth

my question still stands:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1758407&mesg_id=1759155

[applegrove]

11. If they say anything, they give Bush an out with his followers, he then

says it is just he said, she said. If Dems continue to soberly talk about the issues being raised, harder for Bush to pretend he is a victim.

Letting Bush make himself out to be a victim here would be a crime.

[confludemocrat]

29. "If they say anything..."? "Experts"? stop with the nonsense.

It doesn't take an "expert" to credibly and justifiably call Bush on this. Pussy-footing, faint-hearted drivel. "Wait for the victims to speak" they have in abundance. Basically you are saying let the media handle this and the "experts". You doin't know what you are talking about get a grip, grow and spine and encourage everyone, especially leading Democrats to speak out.

And Obama "said some stuff" is that the best you can do? "some stuff"?

What Pelosi said was perfect in tone because it was heartfelt and she stood by it. Others need to do the same in an uncalculated manner. If not now when? Stop being afraid of what they might do. "Keeping our powder dry" has not worked, will not work.

[applegrove]

36. The details have not yet come out. And things become apparent &

verified, Dems will comment. They all asked for FEMA head to be fired. They are asking for a commission. They will continue to ask. But, just like with god & footprints on the beech, sometimes your politicians carry you, sometimes the people carry their leaders. There are times for both.

[bemildred]

10. Yeah, right, we should all be terrified. nt

[applegrove]

14. Media Matters also thinks it is a little frightening.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2075345&mesg_id=2075345

[Dr Fate]

12. What about all the consevative newspapers & columnists saying the same?

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001052874

Where do you get the idea that Nancy is the only one in the media responding this way?

[applegrove]

16. The newspaper & columnists are responding. As are the victims,

the first responders, etc. The point is the Democratic party have stuck with sober, sober speeches on the issues, in order to let everybody else lead the discussion - on what sort of place the USA is, and what sort of place the USA should be.

For now, so that Bush cannot play the victim when he was very much in control, Dems are being quite staid.

And everyone else outside of politicians are where the story is coming from. The story is the story.

[Dr Fate]

18. So are you glad Nancy spoke out, or what?

That is what I dont get.

ON edit: Now I get what you are saying- i still disagree.

[applegrove]

21. I wish they could all speak out. But others are doing it and really -

the stories from the witnesses have barely begun. I don't want Bush to be able to play the victim here. He needs an "other" to be the bad guy. He can only lay so much on the victims and the local authorities. He can't really make himself out to be the victim. And that is good. Because he isn't a victim. So the story rolls along. The actual representation of all he stands for and what it means. And Bush cannot get control of it. Because it involved too many people. And they are all over the country. And they are white & black & journalists & repuke & dem. And Bush did what he did. And didn't do what he willfully didn't do.

I am glad Nancy stood up for herself. I crave to hear more dems speak out like her. Because they are politicians and when they speak - they often do it so well. But if staid keep the story front & centre and the issues clear - I'm not going to say that is the wrong way to go. It is a crisis still. We have more to hear. I don't want it to be turned into a shallow political thing. And that is all that the WH wants.

So let the millions of witnesses speak. Then the policy people come along after.

[applegrove]

24. Bush already tried to blame the victims. And the Pentagon tried to play

the victims. It didn't fly.

[confludemocrat]

32. And you truly think that they have given up on that? dream on (n/t)

[applegrove]

35. No. But as long as the Dems stay staid & let the experts & witnesses &

victims and journalists speak - along with the odd Republican - they will not get away with making themselves out to be the victims. Putting incompetence in positions of great responsibility is a pattern of the WH.

They have nobody to blame but themselves.

[IntravenousDemilo]

26. If the Democrats are not prepared to lead on this issue,

then they're not prepared to lead your country.

[applegrove]

27. Dems are doing the right thing. Let the experts speak to the witnesses

& the victims first.

Victims & witnesses, experts, people & journalists, representatives.

Why would you be afraid of that?

The only people to gain from the Dems making loud political noises of outrage are the Repukes who have no enemy they can blame. Dems are pretty upset - as are many in America & some Repukes.

Bush tried to blame the victims on day 1 of the hurricane. That didn't work. They tried to blame state & local government, and that is not going to fly because state & local governments only have expertise to take them so far. Nobody expects them to be able to handle something bigger than America has ever seen. Bush can't blame the first responders. They cannot blame people who help out with victims. They cannot blame anyone - and so they beg and bait and try hard to get the Dems to come out and play.

But it isn't a game.

[confludemocrat]

31. A game? why do you attribute this as "a game" as to how others respond?

yet you see it as a game played with finesse and your premise is that media will do it's job and that democrats are being "baited" into speaking the truth and every talking point gambit by the Republicans has failed on its own. With all you've said here you have a string of delusions and false hopes that things will turn out right if opposition leaders are silent. And no trust in those who do rightfully tell the truth. That leads nowhere.

[applegrove]

34. Welcome to the DU! I was referring to "blame game"

that is a game of the WH itself. They say they don't want there to be a "blame game" yet they are dying for Dems to give them an enemy. Then they can make themselves out to be the victims to their base if they attack the victims or the journalits or the experts. They need the Democrats to respond with outrage... then they can claim that "outrage" is just a democratic product of politics and not real.

It is not working because the Dems are being so staid. Have you not noticed that it is the experts, the journalists, the witnesses, the victims and the people who are leading the debate?

[PassingFair]

37. Too right, Intravenous!

Here's what will happen if the dems don't attack relentlessly:

A smart, ambitious Puke will bring down this abomination of a Pres, and we will be left holding the stinking DLC bag once again.

It is LONG PAST time to begin screaming. Our representatives should have been screaming for us since 2000.

[Nikki Stone 1]

19. I agree with you, Applegrove

Junior screwed up big time, and all the Democrats had to do was sit back and let him try and spin his way out of it. They didn't have to say much or get upset. The media was energized and on Junior's case. The Dems could have a sober response.

It think, faced with this dilemma, the Bush people decided to get one of the big party leaders to crack and they picked Pelosi. I think saying things like "What went wrong?" was a way to really get her goat and panic her. It was a mind fuck. Before she got a chance to calm down and realize what had happened, she opened her mouth.

Now, I honestly do think Junior is a sociopath. I have no doubt that he doesn't give an honest damn about anyone outside of his own social circle. But he got the Dems off kilter with Pelosi. I weakened the Dems' stand.

[Dr Fate]

20. It is her word against his- and he is not popular and known for lying...

If it plays out like you suggest- then depends on how she handles it from here.

If it became an actual issue, I would have her say somthing like:

"Either Scotty is lying, or someone lied to him. Bush & Scotty already have a long record of mis-statinghte facts- this is another one of those times. Probably a crude political trick no less..."

Somthing like that. She seems to be doing fine already.

I have not seen the media or Bush making much hay of this- so I'm not even sure any of this will even play out.

[Nikki Stone 1]

33. I hope you're right, but these bastards play dirty.

Pelosi needs to keep the context of those remarks in the public eye.

[applegrove]

22. double post

[applegrove]

23. I don't think the people who deliver the psychic jab are the sociopaths

necessarily, often the sociopath is off to the side stage-managing (from what I experienced). We all know Bush is on script. Just the fact that he gets on his bike, and goes and goes and goes shows that the cognitive dissociation (or whatever it is called) is getting to him. He is not the one in control of his life. But he has hung so often with the nefarious that he is part of a living sociopathic organ of sorts. And he plays his role. And then he bikes.

Nancy is no fool. She knows Bush is an enemy of sorts & a liar. She was shaken by his response - which is now characterized as "vague words" by his staff...but those words could be said in such a way as to terrify anyone who was in any way emotionally involved in the last few weeks. Of course she spoke out. She was very upset. She knows he is an asshole. He surprised her with a great deal more than "asshole". Looks like a bait & psychic wound moment to me.

I don't' think the Dem's will be on their message of being "staid" for too long. A whole city gone. Much more needs to be said by people who were there on the ground. And then the experts. And then thoughtful discussion that will take place among people & leaders outside of this bubble Bush lives in. The Dems will be there of course when the time is right.

We know the Bushes will be scrambling the whole time to get the agenda back on track to 1) how FEMA needs to be dismantled 2) contracts of former fema given to corporations 3) red cross dismantled 4) all red cross monies now forwarded to christians who voted for Bush & their charities. But it seems to me the 'great experiment' to prove government needs to be replaced by private sector will be looked upon as a "great experiment" with people's lives, rather than what they wanted.

[IntravenousDemilo]

25. And where the hell is Barack Obama? Has been stricken mute?

Much has been said about the racial undertones of this story, and much of that by lily-white people, and yet Obama is silent.

[applegrove]

28. He's said some stuff. But this isn't funny. This is not a game. This

is some seriously wrong stuff that happened. Let the experts speak when they get the right info. AMA came out with a statement today. Dems should stay quiet till the experts have had time to digest.

[ElectroPrincess]

39. BS, that NEVER stopped the Republicans ...

If they don't speak out, they will NOT get the people's vote. Are they that DAMN stupid to NOT realize they we, the democratic voters, are fed up with gutless wonder representatives. They should be shouting from the highest rafters. These silent bastards are not democrats!

[confludemocrat]

30. He is sticking to his Clinton-inspired strategy, just when he should get

real and speak from his heart about the injustices here. This most grave of screwups and brazen incompetence born of being ideologues and racists does not call for calculation and cleverness and laying back as response. His vote on the bankruptcy bill is going to come back and bite him and alot of NO residents, maybe he is ashamed.