Need some help - refuting "welfare queens" crap

[American in Asia]

from my dear family. Got into an argument stemming from the Katrina response, where my father claims I'm wrong about many things - and cites that 95% of the people who are on welfare are lazy scumbags sitting on their butts their whole lives. This is such bogus, offensive bullshit that I simply can't let it pass.

Anyone have any idea where to look to find the data I need to refute it factually -- I already tried the emotional rant :D and of course that didn't work. I'm too pissed to let it slide though.

Oh - and he also stated that he's mad at those "immigrants" who come into our country and immediately sign up to receive SS benefits. I also doubt that's possible except for some very special circumstances. But I'm woefully unprepared with facts there too.

Appreciate any help you guys can give on where to look (googling frantically in the meantime).

[AtomicKitten]

1. Haven't spoken to my Republican family since Election Theft 2000.

works for me.

[skids]

2. Just tell him dubya disagrees with him.

He said so tonight. :evilgrin:

[seafey]

3. One factual way to go about it...

Use corporate welfare as a "you're right- it's disgusting how these people can get away with government handouts!" Just look here: http://www.corporations.org/welfare/

[ladylibertee]

5. Hey, will you hire them? I think not.

[seafey]

7. Will I whuh???

I don't understand what your post means.

:blush:

[ladylibertee]

13. I'm saying...would you give them a job, so they dont have to be on welfare

[leesa]

34. He's talking about corporate welfare. They don't need to be hired, they

already have jobs.

[chalky]

8. Thanks for that link. I'll be bookmarking this thread for that.

n/t

[mestup]

11. Great site. I've tried that approach with people, but...

...generally end up with the Kool-aid drinker defending those things as "business incentives" to create jobs for those terrible, lazy people.

I've given up investing any emotion in the argument (especially with family members). I find it almost impossible to break through the hate-those-I-perceive-to-be-beneath-me mentality.

Sometimes it's best to respond to absurdity with even more absurdity. (In a Johnathan Swift way) "You know, you're right. They're a total drain on the economy. I think maybe we should just execute them. I mean, how many more convenience store clerks do we really need?"

You'd be amazed at how, after the shock wears off, they'll either a) completely stop bitching about it around you, or b) assume you're serious and actually start making YOUR argument for you.

[seafey]

12. Yeah...

I like the Jonathan Swift approach too. It's beyond fun........

[ladylibertee]

4. Did "Daddy" listen to the President tonight?

Remind POP's that even President Bush admitted that RACISM in this country is the reason why these people are poor. NOT because they are lazy scumbags.As far as the illegals go.hey, I'm with Pop's on that one because it's against the law and bad for the economy.hell, 1800 cubans yesterday snuck in Florida because the National guard was busy in the gulf.

[AtomicKitten]

6. But who's going to work for next-to-nothing for GOP slavemasters?

if Bush tackles illegal immigration? He will NEVER close the borders or touch that issue, and it really pissed off most Republicans to no end.

[ladylibertee]

14. HE HAS NO CHOICE NOW......plus, it will be a lot easier because MEXICO

has made steps in tackling their illegal problem. turns out,they got illegals from Brazil.So, now that they are tightening their side, they can't say SHIT when we tell them to get the fuck out.

[gratuitous]

9. The short answer is best

"Prove it." Who is on welfare all their lives? Tell your family that you want names, addresses and benefits history for this. Otherwise, they're simply bearing false witness against their neighbors, which as I recall is one of the no-nos covered by the Big 10 that I'd guess they want posted in every classroom, courtroom and mushroom in the nation.

The Welfare Reform Act of 1996 (nearly 10 years ago -- have they been asleep all this time?) requires an end to entitlement to cash welfare, work requirements for able-bodied adults, a lifetime limit of five years and severe penalties on clients refusing to comply.

Tell your dear family they're wrong, as wrong as they can be, and our so-called "Christian" nation has now for almost a decade slammed the door in the faces of the least of these their brothers and sisters. How and when did they get so hard-hearted, their consciences seared over as with a branding iron, that they could live under such a punitive regime, and not know anything about it? Jesus, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul and a whole host of other biblical writers and figures had some pretty hard things to say about people living in comfort who didn't have compassion.

[American in Asia]

18. thank you!

The last para. of your post was basically what my emotional rant was all about. I sent them the picture of the old man pulled from his home after 17 days. I sent them the old woman busted for looting a sausage (since they were on about looters) and held on $50k bail. I sent them the Newsweek column on how unChristian this attitude is. And I ranted about bigotry and assumptions and selfishness and WWJD. Pissed them off royally - which I'd feel worse about if, ya know, they hadn't fired the first shot with an incredibly racist, bigoted, and self-righteous rant to me. But it didn't reach them. Maybe it's hopeless? Still, just in case, I wanted to try a more factual and less emotion-based approach!

The lifetime limit on welfare figures is very helpful.

I know there must be stats somewhere that show the average duration a recipient receives assistance - and my bet is that the vast majority come on and go off fairly quickly, due to those unavoidable nastinesses that life throws you sometimes. Not to mention the avoidable ones that Republicans don't care to do anything about, like not having health insurance!

Still looking - but thanks much for everyone ranting with me (blood pressure coming down a bit already!) and helping with the response. I was too pissed for words when I posted earlier.

[Love Bug]

37. If you really want to piss them off remind them it was

BILL CLINTON who signed the welfare reform act. Watch their heads spin on that one.

[eleny]

10. These are the Federal regulations

The index
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_01/45cfrv2_01.html

The Rules for employment
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_01/45cfr261_01.html

[American in Asia]

23. many thanks! very helpful... (n/t)

[ugarte]

15. Check crooked defense contractors, Halliburton,Iraqis lining their pockets

with billions of tax dollars. How does he feel about that kind of welfare? Or is it just poor people that offend him?

[enid602]

16. poor

It was posted here that in LA, welfare recipients can only receive aid for 24 consecutive months, and can only receive it for 60 months during their lifetimes. Furthermore, aid is limited to $226 per month, no matter how large the family. Try living off that. Welfare no longer exists. These people were working (or unemployed or underemployed) poor.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. It's racism. Pure and simple. And easily demonstrated.

Do this little mental exercise with them. I do it all the time and it really gives them pause. I tell them that words conjure up powerful images. I then instruct them to think about a Welfare Queen. I ask them what image they see. What does she look like? I tell them they don't have to answer me but just think about it and that if the woman they see is Black to ask themselves if that's an accident. I point out how Reagan used that phrase constantly to great effect. I'm very careful not to sound like I'm attacking or judging them, because I'm not. It's something that was used to manipulate a lot of people, including those who would be absolutely indignant if you suggested they were racist.

Try it. It works.

[American in Asia]

19. yeah - to an extent -

it worked to the extent he recognized it enough to get pissed off and defensive. So he turned to all the folks he knew growing up in West Virginia who sat on their front porch all day picking up a check. And who knows, maybe there were lots back then - but that is not truly what he's talking about now, as he well knows. I mentioned welfare reform act making this harder, setting limits (but didn't have the exact numbers - thanks SO much for that all of you, and the link to the regs), and pointed out that it's not like your average single mother of 2 can afford child care and work a minimum wage job, but we took away the welfare without providing much in the way of education/training or subsidized child care, thus kinda guaranteeing more kids grow up in poverty. Am I wrong? I'd be more worried - spouting angry without looking - but I know he'll never go check because he's afraid I'm right and will blow his whole self-righteous story.

[ladylibertee]

21. No, NOT to an extent...it's RACISM ..Dude is correct.

[American in Asia]

26. I meant pointing it out worked to an extent -

in that it made him defensive because he saw it. I didn't mean that it was only racist to an extent. It was bigoted - no question.

sorry if my title wasn't clear, but I thought the text was. If not, apologies.

[dorktv]

20. There is a book out called Myth of the Welfare Queen

Has both the stats and the real life stories.

That could help.

[ladylibertee]

22. FOR THE RECORD EVERYONE........

Just to prove that crap is all RACIST stereotype, allow me to introduce myself.I am a 31 year old black, BEAUTIFUL woman. I do not have AIDS, I do not have CHILDREN, I am not FAT,I am NOT on WELFARE. I am a SUPERVISOR in the LODGING HOSPITALITY INDUSTRY for over 12 YEARS.So, BULL SHIT with the stupid stereotypes.

[American in Asia]

25. I'd be kinda shocked if anyone HERE

didn't agree with you that it was crap, that it was racist, that it was ignorant, and that it was an evil stereotype with all sorts of unsavory reasons behind its perpetuation! I just wanted help finding the numbers to prove it. I hope you're not angry at me for trying to find the data to tackle it? It may not do anything, but somethings can't stand unanswered, and for me, this was one of those things, even if my Dad is angry that I'm calling him a racist (which I guess is where we are - it was implied, but not stated, and so, yeah, he's offended - almost as offended as I am that my otherwise pretty decent father is spouting this shit).

Given that my spouse is not of my race, this was already sort of a sore point, but, well, tough, I guess, since he brought it up. Family conflict still sucks though.

[ladylibertee]

27. I' not mad...It's just

Theres so much talk of freepers infiltrating and when someone is overly interested in wanting to continue talking about a serious issue without condemning it, It sorta smells freepish.I mean, what if I stared a thread off with " Those Japs. Why do they all look alike?" and instead of express that it is RACIST to even say that, everyone starts talking about the way they look.It would piss you off wouldn't it?

[American in Asia]

28. Sure it would..

Even more so because my husband is Japanese, and my kids are half-Japanese.

But it would have offended me no matter what race. And I thought my original post said so - that it was bogus offensive crap that I felt compelled to respond to. Right?

Sorry again if there was a misunderstanding.

[ladylibertee]

29. Its cool. We are friends. thats why we are here. I'm just pumped up is all

:grouphug: I love my Liberal Pals !!!!!

[tsuki]

24. Ask him if that 75% includes the Corporations and their overpaid

CEOs.

[NAO]

30. Welfare is for CHILDREN. They should not be blamed nor suffer even if...

their parents are "lazy scumbags sitting on their butts their whole lives". PERIOD.

That has always been my argument for Welfare - the informal name of the program called "AFDC" "Aid to Families With Dependent Children". No matter how bad or worthless a child's parents are, that child deserves to have enough food to eat and a decent start in life with a good education so that they can have a chance to better themselves.

No child should go hungry in the United States - regardless of their parents ambition or lack of ambition.

[American in Asia]

32. Absolutely agree!

And the fact that somewhere near 20% of them DO is a national disgrace.

[Debs]

31. Here are some figures you might find useful

http://www.wsipp.wa.gov/rptfiles/TimeLimits.pdf
(In Washington State) The average current stay on Welfare is 18 months. Prior to 1997, clients stayed the caseload for an average of 27 months (Still not dependency nor generational)
http://salt.claretianpubs.org/issues/welfare/davids.html
Myth #1: Welfare benefits go to minority women who never leave the dole.
THE FACT IS, MORE WHITES RECEIVE aid than blacks or Hispanics. Two out of three welfare recipients are children, not adults. And contrary to the stereotype of families forever dependent, nearly three out of four women receiving aid get off welfare within two years.
NATIONWIDE, HALF OF ALL FAMILIES on AFDC leave within a year, and 70 percent leave within two years, according to Deborah Weinstein, director of the family income division of the Children's Defense Fund in Washington, D.C. Roughly two thirds of those families return to welfare within five years.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=1481
For example, the extent of welfare dependence is almost always overstated – in the US solid empirical research discovered long-term welfare use was minimal, families spawning generations on welfare were rare and the average stay on the rolls was only 18 months.
Welfare dependence is usually confined to small communities with unique needs (eg a town with the main industry destroyed, certain Indigenous communities). Successful solutions need to be community-based rather than across the board. For example, some schemes devised and performed by Indigenous groups have been very successful. Highlight the success stories and promote the ‘small is beautiful’ approach.
Fast facts on poverty and welfare
 The U.S. child poverty rate is more than double that of any other industrialized country. (UNICEF, 1993)
 63.2 percent of poor families with children had someone in the family who worked during the year. (U.S. House of Representatives' Green Book, 1993 and 1994)
 Approximately 27 percent of poor families with children had the equivalent of one or more persons working full time, year-round. (U.S. House of Representatives' Green Book, 1993 and 1994)
 Families with children experienced most of the increase in U.S. poverty between 1990 and 1991. In 1990, the majority of these poor families—60 percent—were married-couple families. (U.S. House of Representatives' Green Book, 1993 and 1994)
 More Americans are living below the poverty level--36.9 million—than at any time since 1962. (U.S. Census Bureau, 1993)
 Of all WIC participants, 44.7 percent are Caucasian, 27.3 percent are African American, and 23.7 percent are Hispanic, (U.S. Department of Agriculture, 1993)
 Prenatal WIC benefits costing $296 million in 1990 will save $1.04 billion in health- and education-related expenditures by the year 2008. (General Accounting Office, 1992)
 Due to a lack of funding, WIC reaches only 60 percent of all eligible women and children. Nearly 3.5 million people who qualify cannot be served. (U.S. Department of Agriculture, 1993)
 A record 27.4 million Americans—nearly 11 percent of the population—enrolled in the Food Stamp Program in November 1993. (U.S. Department of Agriculture, 1994)

[American in Asia]

33. Thanks Debs!

The second site was particularly helpful. The "Myths" were very nicely laid out and explained -- it's pre-1996 Welfare Reform too, so you can see that even then, the make-up of recipients, and the benefits they got, were nothing like what the idiots on the right try to paint it as. I've just fired off a more "reasoned" email to family...not hopeful, but at least I tried, right? If there's any consolation to me at the moment, it's that I think I piss them off as much as they do me! Of course - the biggest consolation -- I'm usually right because the fundie conservative position is totally indefensible - on Christian grounds, on economic grounds, on public policy grounds, and, even more often, just 'cause their facts are totally bogus.

I really appreciate the help everyone.

[Breeze54]

40. Statistics Galore.....

U.S. Welfare Caseloads Information
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/news/stats/newstat2.shtml

Percentage of the US Population on Welfare By Year Since 1960
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/news/stats/6097rf.htm

Welfare Caseloads Decline/New Grants to Promote Job Retention
(August 20, 1998)
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/news/stats/13grants.htm
snip->
Since January 1993,
the number of recipients on welfare has dropped by more than 41 percent,
including a decline of more than 30 percent since the enactment
of the welfare reform law on August 22, 1996.
There are 5.7 million fewer recipients on the welfare rolls since President Clinton took office,
and 3.8 million fewer welfare recipients since the passage of the
1996 law.
The rate of decline remains strong with nearly 2 percent reductions
each month, almost double the rate for the same period in 1997.<--snip

SOURCE: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
The Administration for Children and Families

[Bridget Burke]

35. Just addressing the "immigrants" comment....

He didn't even specify "illegal."

Isn't any legal resident of the US who pays into Social Security entitled to benefits? If any undocumented workers pay in, they usually use a fake SS#--so they won't get anything.

I'm one who agrees that your father needs to provide references for his "information" before you worry too much about refuting it.

[welshTerrier2]

36. new energy bill: $14 BILLION for Big Oil

your "dear family" is rightfully concerned about "welfare queens" ... please respectfully point out to them that these queens have names like Carlyle, Halliburton and Bechtel ...

at a time when the big oil companies are experiencing record profits, and the "oil for one and one for oil" administration is in the WH, politely point out to them that welfare giveaways to big oil are obscenities ...

i think your dad is right ... these "welfare queens" are "lazy scumbags" ... all they're doing is exploiting the American people ... i trust he will support your view that we need to get rid of the republicans who seem to know no end to giving away our hard-earned tax dollars to their wealthy friends ...

oh, and while you're at it, you might also politely point out that we Democrats are sick and tired of the record budget deficits bush and his corporate friends are running up ... most Democrats support balanced budgets ... it's clear, with control of the WH, the Senate and the House, that republicans do not ...

[American in Asia]

39. Excellent frame...

if he's still speaking to me after the last exchange, that'll be where I go next. Really - it's willful blindness, isn't it? He's a smart, well-educated guy. He's a good man in many, many ways. He's honest, he works hard, he's kind to people, he gives to charity a lot. He taught us to be the same. Heck, he raised a VERY liberal daughter after all (regrets it I bet too!) lol... I really don't get him on his politics at all, especially now that he's 70, retired, ill, and not in great shape financially. What is in it for him with this party? Tax cut? won't help him. Estate tax - nope, not worth enough. What is it? Why can't he get past this blind allegience?

[Sparkly]

38. Ask them to show YOU what percentage of their tax dollar goes to welfare.

They can peruse this site for their research:
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/index.html

[Bluerthanblue]

41. The very best teacher for your father would be

for him to go and attempt to sign up for welfare himself-
As a former welfare recipient, I can tell you it is absolutely NO picnic- it is humiliating, demeaning, humbling, and frustrating beyond words-

The hardest part about it is the way if you are able to begin to get on your feet, but not quite, (like you can pay your immediate bills, but lack adequate childcare, or receive medical benefits, but can't get a job that will offer benefits, and have conditions which would eat up all your salary just for medical bills- you are shit out of luck)

Challenge him- tell him to go to your local office, and sign up- and see the hoops, humiliation, and reality that those he sits among for the most part are folks JUST LIKE HIM- except they haven't caught the 'break' he did-

Welfare as we 'know' it no longer exists. There is a 5yr. max. for any adult to receive benefits in the most GENEROUS of states. After that, you're shit out of luck.-
period. And you MUST look for work as you receive benefits.- TANF temp. aid to needy families is what 'welfare' is now called. There ARE no 'welfare queens' or 'kings' except the Corporate ones- and they 'deserve' their riches- because they are, for the most part rich white republican males.

Tell him if he wants to talk to someone who knows through experience, I'd be happy to give him the facts, and my own experience.
And that he's more ignorant than I am- on this issue at least.

[VAMom]

42. Honestly....why even try?

They are gonna believe what they are gonna believe. Anything you say will be refuted with some quibbling little fact. I don't even try. I just nod my head and walk away saving my poor stomach any additional acid from stress

[American in Asia]

43. Yeah - you're right..

I agree with you on most of the idiots on the right. I don't even try. I keep my distance entirely. I find I don't even have any republican friends anymore - I can't bear to be around their crap. But with a couple family members (not all) sometimes I do get through with them. My mom's a closet Democrat (well, not on the "moral issues" which is hysterically funny, because the fundie position is so incredibly immoral) on most social issues. My SIL, a deeply religious woman, totally gets what I see as the disconnect between the religious right's fake morality, and what Jesus taught, and why I find it obnoxiously hypocritical. They both did vote for Bush though on "security" grounds, and now rue it.

My Dad is a mixed bag. He's of a certain generation - he gets outraged and wound up by what he sees on some god-awful tv show and spouts without thinking, all based on his life experiences, I guess. But he's not a hater by nature (I know, I know, that sounds totally bogus given the racism of the welfare queen remark), but it's more a failure in thinking - he's the first guy to lend a hand, open his home, give money to someone in need -- to anyone, and honestly race never seems to enter into it on a personal level. How to reconcile that? I dunno. I knock my brains out trying. But many times in the past I've been able to get through, make him think. Capital punishment was one example. I love the guy - he's a better man than many, not as much as I'd like in some areas. But he's my dad, ya know? And he's not one of the hopeless Kool-Aid drinkers. He does listen - carefully - and think and mull over what I said. Sometimes I win, sometimes I can't convince him, but well, I feel like I need to try.

After my less, um, emotional, rant, I sent him a calmer one - reasoned, full of stats (THANKS!), posing public policy questions about what we want to achieve, children in poverty issues, education -- you know - the sensible stuff. And I got back a very sweet email saying he knows I'm right - he was just so angry by all the reports of looting of tvs and shootings at helicopters (sigh - that one I'll leave alone - pick your battles) and he knows he's wrong and overreacted. He agrees with me on the objectives. But the line I loved - "you make excellent points, and the things you said should be carefully considered by our legislators". Um. Yeah. Well. I didn't say anything earthshatteringly original. They know. Care is a different matter! Hell, at least he admitted I was right - and even if he's not likely to have totally changed these attitudes, at least he's unlikely to spout them at me again - he may be wrong on many things, but he doesn't deliberately pick fights or piss me off on purpose.

Anyway - thanks again for helping me answer - it made me feel better - I learned something - and at least it saves me having to hear this crap again and get my blood pressure up.