Australians falling out of love with the U.S.

[Kailassa]

Opening up MSN today, I was surprised to see the poll on Australian "MSN today".

"Poll: Should Australia follow NZ and distance itself from the US alliance? vote now "

Before hurricane Katrina, such a poll would have been unthinkable, and before Katrina, I wanted Australia distanced from America in every way possible. However it was following this disaster (an important pivot point of history, imo) that led me here. It has been such an incredible relief to find a forum in which Americans can write legibly and express something other than hatred and creationism. There are good people in the other forums too, but I wonder how they have the courage and perseverance to keep posting against the throngs of unthinking idiots. (You don't get throngs of unthinking Australians posting on forums because there aren't throngs of Aussies that know what a forum is, yet. ;-) )

Anyway, seeing this today made me sad, because I know what a great country America could be if it was not run by a band of self-serving lunatics.

(yes:29735 no:22220)

[swimmernsecretsea]

1. Is anyone keeping a tally

of the number of countries that have distanced themselves and have even become actively hostile since * took office? The list seems to be growning.

[whatever4]

3. I just keep wondering if it's intentional

In my conspiracy-theory brain; are we being cut off from our friends, like with an abusive spouse? So we have nowhere else to run, and no one to help us? I hope not. I hope that's not part of the BushCo plan.

[swimmernsecretsea]

15. It's not out of the question...

I'd considered that, myself, and thought it might even hold some weight.

[asjr]

4. John Bolton will do the rest of the job of

alienating the rest of the world.

[tsuki]

21. Will do, or has done? eoq

[Lexingtonian]

18. It's hardly surprising

once you realize that the Bush people have done their darndest to exploit the goodwill and benefit of the doubt given the U.S. as a result of its relatively benign and progressive role in the Cold War. They simply regarded it as just one more form of 'political capital' they could expend without accountability.

I'm not sure this is such a bad thing- a lot of American bad habits/behavior abroad and domestically stemmed from it; the rest of the world became resentful at the privilege that Americans were treating increasingly as inherently due them.

The cheap oil economy was built on a military protection guarantee given the Gulf countries in during the early Seventies in return for their keeping the spigots open and the meter running slowing. The Kuwait war turned that relationship into onerous for the Gulf countries. Domestically, cheap oil enabled glutton behaviors ranging from blue collar consumerism, stuff like uninsulated houses and SUV machismo and plasticophilia, and defunding of rail lines and reducing car fuel economy in the name of corporate profits on the other end.

The Bush people created the 'Coalition of the Willing' as, in effect, a debtors' prison for countries Americans helped during the Cold War and predatory alliance of neocolonialist governments/elites like themselves (Aznar's Spain, Berlusconi's Italy, Blair's Britain, Howard's Australia). We don't talk about it much at the moment, but the Guantanamo Bay-centered prison system has worked out quite complementarily.

The worldwide response has been one of horror that the U.S. has thrown away its Cold War reputation and power in such a ridiculous and minimally worthwhile way. But at the same time, the Modernization of the world is such that American power and reputation was going to get levelled in some fashion. And maybe it's not such a bad thing that the inferiority/superiority issues of people in the rest of the world toward the U.S. that were so intense during the Nineties are sated by it. Plus, "wasting" this excess/no longer quite merited power on the last few residues of the Cold War- the Stalinism of Iraq, North Korea, the former Soviet Republics- is perhaps the least messy and most appropriate way of using it up.

This selfinflicted collapse of American power has had a good side in forcing other global powers, like the EU and Russia and China and India, to find responsible and realistic policies of power projection- the willingness to have regional might, to squeeze bad American interests out of these regions, and yet to limit themselves to their regions as well. It has forced a greater maturity on all sides. The state of Israel's decision to go into detente is a good example of this as well.

[Arugula Latte]

2. Maybe one day the U.S. will be worthy of other countries' support

But we're a looooong way from that with these band of criminals in charge.

It's a pity.

[0007]

5. OMFG!! Folks are waking up around the world and in the U.S.

The self-serving lunatics are none other than organized crime that understands clearly how to use religion and the loop-holes in U.S. and International laws to buy off the wealthy and big cooperations to rule with an iron hand.

[magnolia]

6. It's not just other countries...

...it's the citizens of other countries. They no longer see the U.S. as the most desirable place in the world to live.

The Bush administration has given us a new slogan:

AMERICAN - NICE PLACE TO VISIT, BUT I WOULDN'T WANT TO LIVE THERE.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. It's all part of Bushco's plan to control illegal immigration.

"America? Why the fuck would I want to go there?"

[DBoon]

10. after bush is done ruining our economy

Americans will have to emigrate to Mexico to find jobs

[melody]

8. very sad and yet not surprising

They aren't disavowing Bush and Co., they're disavowing us, and we didn't vote for the monster in the first place.

I never experience a lot of "love" in general toward Americans from Australians that I know, so I suspect this is just becoming more vocal than not.

Why is it that it's well to feel sorry for the poor Iranian people under the Mullah (and I agree with that), but somehow we evil Americans are in league with the devil? This seems more a case of bias than actual personal reflection.

[I Have A Dream]

9. Well, at least right now, the Mullah isn't going around starting...

wars in other areas of the world as we did in Iraq. (In my opinion, Afghanistan was different, and I think lots of people outside of the US probably think the same way.)

If I weren't American, I probably would be pissed at Americans right now. Actually, I AM pissed at 52% of Americans right now.

[melody]

11. I'm not pissed off at any Americans now

We didn't vote for him, either time.

Are we all to be blamed for what our ruler does? I don't think so - most of us suffer far more than anyone other than the Iraqis from what this monster does. I remember being taught in school to differentiate between the "evil Soviets" and the "good Soviet people". Our whacko government can make that distinction but international folk can't?

[I Have A Dream]

12. All I can say is that I'm surrounded by B* supporters every...

day. I'm pissed at them. I'm glad that you're able to take the high road. I wish that I could, but I don't have it in me any longer.

[melody]

14. I live in California, we all want him roasted on a spit

I don't know anyone but one person who voted for him and even he regrets it now.

That's what disturbs me - and I blame Bush for this as much as anyone, that we're all being blamed for what the minority did. 220 million Americans either didn't vote for George Bush or were too young to vote or incapable of voting. Seventy million people voted for him. They are the decided minority, even if you *do* believe Diebold, which I don't.

[I Have A Dream]

17. I envy you your sea of blue! n/t

[Zodiak]

27. did we make that distinction between Iraqis and Saddam?

We bombed the hell out the Iraqis because Saddam was a bad man, remember. Who can look at a culture (ours) that does a thing like that and NOT blame the people somewhat?

47-52% of Americans were in lock-step with Bush on the last election. Foreigners are not as "in the know" about our stolen elections, so what conclusion are they supposed to come up with?

Are Americans "special" in that we are not held responsible for our leaders? Is there any other country in the world that enjoys such a discnnect?

[melody]

30. Who did these things?

Well, if we're going to accuse someone of killing Iraqis while protecting Iraq (and we definitely should), we shouldn't make the same mistake as those we are accusing. If we do that, we stand on shaky moral ground.

>Who can look at a culture (ours) that does a thing like that and NOT >blame the people somewhat?

There exists an anti-American bias in Europe which has existed before Bush even came into office. I was called a "septic tank" (Cockney rhyming slang ethnic slur for Yanks) back in 1993. While there is plenty of understandable anger at our US government in Europe and Australia, we shouldn't chastise our people for doing one thing and let everyone else off for the same behavior. Why are WE being held to another standard?

It's no more right to be biased against Americans than it is to be biased against any other nationality. What makes it irrational for one, makes it irrational for all. It's not only a moral error, but an intellectual one involved in racism/bigotry.

As I've said before, my people didn't come here to leave their country any more than a Californian moving to Hawaii sees himself as leaving the US -- my people were stuck here after the Revolution, both the Cherokee and the British parts. I'm nothing but an American, so when you generalize about Americans, you're talking about me.

I am against this repulsive war BECAUSE I am on the side of the Iraqi people. Just so, I'm against anti-American bias, because I'm on the side of the American *people*. That perspective IS the same side.

I know a lot of you are younger folk who need to see the outside world as somehow more moral than we are, but I've been there. The simple truth is, everyone is human. No one nationality is "better" than any other. We all suck equally at different things. lol

[Zodiak]

34. I am not justifying bigotry

If that is what you are interpreting from my post, then I apologize for not being clear. What I am saying is that many in the world look at America and see the face of Bush....they see the roaring crowds of freepers screaming for the blood of Iraqis because that is how America is presenting itself to the world.

As you say, people are flawed, so they see this through human, flawed eyes and blame Americans for this. You and I undersand that it is our government, but many do not...they generalize. The point of my post is to show a few things:

Americans have not made that distinction in the past with other countries, and express their bigotry through bombs, not words. I thought this point needed to be made because of the generalized question "why don't they (foreigners) make a distinction between us and our government?" If they did, it would be a double standard and it would allow us to escape our own hypocrisy. I think America needs to see its ugly hypocrisy and amend it before we look for others to amend their behavior. You know, lead by example (if we are worthy to lead at all).

I cannot control other countries' bigotry, and I am under no illusions that they are any better. However, many countries have a far saner government and a population far less likely to be swayed by TV commercials promoting war. I would imaginge that GW's "re-election" made the rest of the world start to really look at Americans themselves.

They see the freepers, and are rightfully disgusted.

BTW - A military man with whom I work told me today that he had personally seen MANY, MANY American students and toursits acting like complete asses in foreign countries. Their attitude was "get out of my way, I'm an AMERICAN!!". I would imagine that our haughty manner, our expectorating attitudes, and our disdain for other cultures has fomented the sentiment to which you were privvy in 1993.

Just a guess.

We are liberals in America. By definition, we are a small minority with no power, no voice, and get little say concerning our culture. I do NOT want people from other countries to look at how I act and think it is representative of Americans. It isn't. Joe Sixpack is representative of "typical Americans", and we liberals are along for the ride, white-knuckling it all the way.

I personally do not care about what others call me for being American. Defending Americans in this environment seems to me to be too PC and disingenuous. I have heard it all from those with whom I work (rich, stupid, incurious, uncultured, uncooth, rude, "cliquish"), and most of the time I cannot disagree with them. I am glad to be the exception.

[melody]

35. I find bigotry of all kinds offensive and I argue against it in any forum

BTW, there was a French sociological study a few years ago that tracked a group of apparent "foreigners" in public places. They had the people dress in gear to look like a range of different nationalities. They presented themselves to people around them as that nationality. This happened over a period of a year. All times, the test group said and did the same things with the same intensity.

Everytime their raucous behavior was cited as "rude" or "arrogant", the group was dressed as Americans. Europeans saw the European young people as just being "kids".

I'm afraid we see ourselves that way too, just as I have a black acquaintance who is more racist against black people than many right-wing white folk I know. Unfortunately, we buy into the most negative stereotypes about ourselves.

As for "politically correct", what is politically correct in one venue is not politically correct in another. If you think I sound "PC" here, you haven't seen my private messages. lol

I'm just suggesting, we're as worthwhile as any other kind of human...that's all. No reason to hate ourselves as a people, is my point, simply because our *government* is detestable.

[Zodiak]

36. I get you

We are just coming at this from different angles. I have accepted that people are flawed and instead try to understand why they act the way they do without judgement. I do not hate myself as an American, but I cannot disagree with many of the stereotypes because I work with it each and every day and have the benefit of getting the opinions of the many foreign nationals I work with, as well. It is not self-hatred...it is simple observation.

It is what it is. It is not everybody who acts like the stereotype, but it is a good proportion of us.

I commend you for detesting any bigotry that you see, but you must understand that it is what it is and cannot be changed from without, so I would disagree with challenging it everywhere you see in a forum. It must come from within without coercion. Personally, I would rather that bigots are allowed to let it all hang out so at least we can deal with it openly and honestly.

I don't revel in the hatred of other countries towards this one...I just cannot deny that it has, of late, come with good reason. Previous to that, it was ostensibly unjustified because the whole world pretty much knew that our government kept us in the dark. Now blind nationalism and bloodlust are allowed to emerge unchecked as the ugly face of the American people, as well.

Like it or not, Bush speaks for us...through our airwaves, our culture, and our government. He has coursened our country and brought the emnity of many of our allies, including their people. Rather than stamp my foot in consternation at it, I would like to fix it and return to the day when hatred of American was unjustified, because now I cannot in good conscience say it isn't.

"they hate us for our freedoms"

[melody]

37. my problem is with unseen bigotry

There are subtle forms that aren't always obvious -- we all have them. The key is to, as the late Justice Marshall said, sit hard upon them.

I don't "coerce", I merely point it out in discussion. lol

That said, since Bush has now made the dollar work a fraction of what it once was, I must go to work again to put food on my family. :)

[Zodiak]

40. lol ok

And thanks for the discussion. I agree, we ALL have some form of bigotry. It is pernicious and unfortuntely a part of the human experience.

[Geek_Girl]

39. I disagree

almost half or more of registered voters put this asshole in office. And with all that has happened still 40% of Americans still support him.

[Kailassa]

13. tourists ...

Melody there is one thing yours and my country have in common, when "touristing" we tend to very loudly demonstrate the worst of our national traits. So Americans wanting acceptance often pretend to be Canadian, and Australians wanting acceptance get drunk.

It's not only the rest of the world that can make the mistake of blaming Americans in general for Bush. A poster in another forum was insisting that, as America is a democratic country, the people of New Orleans were responsible for whatever the elected government did, therefore it was their own fault if the government's decisions killed them.

Another aspect is what I believe to be a Republican propagander machine that floods newspapers all around the world with letters telling the standard Republican lies. When this is all many people see of Americans, apart from films and television in which every American is loud, insensitive and lives in a spacious apartment or 2 storey house, people are sold the notion that Americans are all stupid rich bastards.

I think it's time the Dems got their own propagander machine oiled and running to counteract the destructive freeper tactics.

[melody]

16. Americans don't pretend to be Canadian - that's a myth

It was invented by a Canadian journalist who now admits to it. I can't imagine any American pretending to be Canadian. I am a progressive and I wouldn't do it. Nothing against Canadians, it's just a matter of embracing one's own ancestors and their sacrifices.

I like most of the Aussies I meet. You're the most Californian people in the world outside California. lol Anyway, every Aussie I've met is an individual. Anyone who thinks all Americans are loud has never been to my home. I'm so soft-spoken, most people need to ask twice what I've just said. My Aussie college friend Kate and I share that trait.

Also, there are plenty of films with Americans who aren't any of those things. I fear the problem is more an anti-American bias laced with very wrong-headed jealousy of us. If they knew what it's like to really live here, they surely wouldn't be jealous. Just ask the poor people of the Gulf Coast. What happened there shocked everyone, but it didn't really surprise any of the Americans I know. We're taught from an early age we deserve whatever kick in the teeth we receive.

I have found quite a few non-US friends who were stunned to find that I (a middle class American) lived in a 780 sq foot house. I think there's this notion that we all live in palaces, when that is the decided minority, as I know you know.

Alright, end of my flight from work...back to the grindstone so I can afford to pay my health insurance. lol

[Kailassa]

19. legendary Americans

Melody, re "Canadian" Americans, I'm not talking about a myth I've heard, I'm talking about 9 out of 10 Americans who I know locally.

As for you being soft spoken and having a small house, I don't doubt it. If you read my original post you would see I have a lot of respect for the Americans here. That is why I post here, I want to do what I can to encourage you and lend a hand, and I'm sooo angry with what the Republicans are doing to your beautiful country that I need a place where I can join in discussions about what is going on.

You seem to be taking my post about the poll very personally. I'm not attacking you or anyone else. The poll I'm reporting is about the Australia/US alliance, the remains of what used to be ANZUS, not about individuals.

So let's get back to the facts, which are that Bush has finally, through his lack of compassion towards the people of New Orleans, managed to convince the bulk of Australia that they don't want to be aligned politically with America any longer.

[melody]

20. This is personal, but my reaction isn't to you

It's to the trend you've posted about. If the study referred to "Americans", rather than the government, I find it very sad, but there will always be bigots in every country. We have them in droves in the US, too. They are all over the place. One can't avoid them.

The Americans you know locally have their own problems, then. I've received enough knee-jerk anti-American reactions from some Canadians that it doesn't surprise me some Americans might feel it necessary. I just know the old story about students sewing maple leaves onto bookbags is false.

When any person says "America" or "Americans", they mean me. I'm not excluded from such a remark. If the person says "some of America or some Americans", fine, I can live with that. Most Americans I know despise George Bush, and yet this anti-American stereotype persists elsewhere out of disdain for the people, not for the government, and yes, I think some of that is misplaced "envy". It's also the old authority thing - people like at the "big dog" in the world as the exteriorized father or something. Oy.

Anyway, don't take my comments personally - they aren't to you, but to the topic.

[Karenina]

24. Your post is a perfect example

of why Americans are now being lumped together with the *administration.

[melody]

25. why, because I love my country? I think that's a good thing.

Karenina, that's a petulant personal attack. If you have problems with my comments, address them individually and show your work. Otherwise, it's just a petty insult.

You assume -- yet again (as happens with so many people) -- that just because I love my country, I "like" the fetid shrub. Let me tell you, I was writing about the dangers of the Bush crime family before you were born most probably. I despise this monster and his entire family. However, I love my country and am quite proud of the accomplishments of my family over 300 years.

If you need to hate us for your own reasons, by all means do so, but it has nothing to do with our people. If you hate our government, fine, then I'm with you, but our *people* -- my people (Americans) -- are a different matter entirely.

I don't think we're the best country in the world, but I don't think we're the worst country in the world. We now have the worst national leader in the world, but that was forced upon us...it was never our choice.

However, it's very handy the way public sentiment (most obviously in Europe and Australia) has been used to make some people hate the #2 victims (behind Iraq) of the Bush regime. Thereby, the Bushbots will go right on destroying, going from one country to another, long after somebody nukes us into perdition.

[Karenina]

28. May I point out at a few things

that raise hackles? My communication intent was to draw your attention.
I am happy that I succeeded. We are not adversaries. I should like to direct your attention to how your words are received.

Assumptions of superiority:

"You assume -- yet again (as happens with so many people) -- that just because I love my country, I "like" the fetid shrub. Let me tell you, I was writing about the dangers of the Bush crime family before you were born most probably."

If you "liked" the *shrub you would hardly be able to post so many threads on this board. I lived during the Truman era. My next door neighbors were on BOTH sides "fresh" Holocaust survivors.

"If you need to hate us for your own reasons, by all means do so, but it has nothing to do with our people. If you hate our government, fine, then I'm with you, but our *people* -- my people (Americans) -- are a different matter entirely."

I was born black and raised in white America when there were separate drinking fountains. I know quite up close and personal what "hate" from Americans feels like.

"Americans don't pretend to be Canadian - that's a myth
It was invented by a Canadian journalist who now admits to it."

When was the last time you were in Europe? During Clinton's impeachment there were times I simply could not deal with public discussion, I altered my accent and references when identifying myself as Canadian. I spent my teenie summers in Parry Sound. Most Amis who attempt it DO NOT pass muster.

"I fear the problem is more an anti-American bias laced with very wrong-headed jealousy of us. If they knew what it's like to really live here, they surely wouldn't be jealous."

That you think most are just "jealous" reveals your default template that America is the best country to live in. That you think others don't and haven't grokked the reality of America, especially post-Katrina...

[melody]

29. then obviously you didn't read my post

First off, I'm part Cherokee (and I mean 1/4, NOT 1/16th). I look Indian. Lets not play "more minority than thou". The rest of me is poor white folk. My people came from the Appalachias. I have lived in the more affluent rungs of white America for a long time. I have also been in white Europe. I've heard as many nasty remarks from Europeans as I have from European-Americans. Idiots are everywhere. And my best friend (growing up and still one of them) IS the daughter of a Holocaust survivor, so lets end the pissing contest on that score, too, shall we?

There are plenty of self-hating Americans or Americans who want to see Europe/other countries as some idyllic, non-evil entity outside of the evil US. Those countries have just as many problems as we do. They may be different ones, but they are there. We're all human -- none of us fall very far from the tree. lol There are no "good" guys or "bad" guys, except for George Bush and his ilk (and there is at least one of him in every country).

Third, if you would re-read my posting, you would see I quite specifically said **misplaced "envy"** -- in fact, a lot of people in other countries incorrectly see us as rich, well-off brats who are pampered, when the vast majority compare much more to the people hung out to dry in Louisiana. We are a third world country in many respects except for about 5% of our population.

Please, next time read what I post, not what you think I've posted.

It's sad that you have such an overpoweringly negative reaction to your own country -- I'm afraid I can't blame you on that level. It would be easy for a lot of us to give up the fight. That said, no other countries is going to be "better" than this one in terms of its people. All we can hope for is wiser government.

[Karenina]

31. Whoomp dey it is again...

"That said, no other countries is going to be "better" than this one in terms of its people. All we can hope for is wiser government."

My goodness, your *dauphin certainly does accurately reflect the core assumptions in your post. :SIGH:

Ever lived on a reservation?

[melody]

32. Ohmygod...I give up

You're reading into it what you want to read into it, Karenina.

>no other countries is going to be "better" than this one in terms of >its people

This a matter of logic and reason, not moral fibre. People are people, in other words, but you'll read that whatever way you like.

I know one of your favorite things to do is to go play "more leftist than thou" on here, and I've toyed with the thought of adding you to my ignore list, but I give everyone the benefit of the doubt -- you just lost yours.

Now have the last word as you always seek to, and we can close this thread.

[Karenina]

33. Please DO put me on ignore.

Circle your wagons, remain ignorant and in denial. Alles Bestens!

[OnionPatch]

22. The Dems propaganda machine

isn't backed by all the US multi-national corporations like the Republican's spin machine is. The Republicans own all the major media in case you haven't noticed. Unfortunately, telling the truth doesn't pay as much as furthering an agenda for rich SOBs.

I agree that Bush is not rightfully our president because his cronies did steal the election (and every election since 2000.) But I sometimes feel I want to blame people for snoozing and letting this happen. Too many Americans haven't a clue as to what our government is doing or even what it's supposed to be doing. On the other hand, so many people, especially in the south, have been so totally propagandized (is that a word?) from every possible direction that I have a hard time placing ALL the blame on the people.

I'm sorry to hear Australian opinion of the US is down but in a way it's heartening to know that the rest of the world is basically against all this Republican garbage. I might be more upset if I thought Australia LOVED Bush! I just hope the rest of the world takes a lesson from us and vigilantly guards their democracy. Freedom isn't free, you know. ;)

[Sooner75]

23. Maybe there's some good in this.

If was an Aussie, I know I'd be among those who are deeply disappointed with this country. I have been amazed and disappointed by the rise of this empty suit of a politician since 1994 when he kept Ann Richards from getting re-elected as Texas governor. Back then, he was almost completely unknown. He just had a famous name.

From 1994 thru 2004, I voted against GWB FOUR TIMES!! The gubenatorial races in '94 and '98 and the presidential races in 2000 and 2004. I am more than a little frustrated by the ride that that guy has had.

Just MAYBE, if Americans see enough of their valued friends like the Australians and the Kiwis holding their noses, then they MIGHT get a clue.

[melody]

26. we have a clue

I really wish people would read the Diebold information -- our elections were stolen. Do you honestly think a President can go from a win of the electorate to a 32% approval rating in one year? It's statistically highly unlikely.

[mikelewis]

38. Welcome to DU...

"I wonder how they have the courage and perseverance to keep posting against the throngs of unthinking idiots."

Coffee, cigarettes and a deep well of shock and outrage.