Separation of Church and State in High School Band Competitions

[renie408]

So, we went to my son's first band competition today (we won our division, BTW). The last band to perform was the band from the school hosting the competition. They are not judged, but they perform their competition show.

The show was entitled "Appalachian Sketches" and had a variety of hillbilly music...and wound up with a medley of "Promised Land", "Amazing Grace" and "How Great Thou Art".

Isn't that...wrong? It really irked the hell out of me. I know this is rural SC, but DAMN.

[renie408]

1. Did I mention that the show ended with the color guard waving

giant eight foot tall crosses?

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. Okay, I read this after I wrote my post - that's totally uncool

and pure bullshit.

That would be one of those signifiers that makes it easy to tell what side of the nebulous line the school was on. Clearly on the religious propaganda side.

Fuckers.

[msongs]

11. were the crosses burning with real fire? nt

[renie408]

14. Now THAT would have reflected SC history.

Like I said in another post, if they had decided to play "Dixieland" and wave Confederate flags, the world would have come to an end. There are a lot of things that are inappropriate for a public high school setting that represent SC history.

[kath]

15. Did they really wave 8-ft crosses? Or did you forget the sarcasm emoticon?

Please say the 2nd case is true, or I'm really going to freak out here. Yikes.

[renie408]

16. No, they really waved 8 ft crosses

Or at least the crosses were way bigger than the kids were. They may have only been seven foot crosses.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Well, there are two sides to that coin

One cannot talk about American music without talking about religious music, at least not until the 1950s or so, and not in terms of GOOD music. And it's just plain difficult to talk about Western music at all without talking religion.

And one ABSOLUTELY cannot talk about Appalachian music without talking about religious music, specifically the Christian religion.

In that sense, it doesn't bother me if schools are playing the music, UNLESS the school is doing it for religious reasons. And that's the tricky part - determining when it's being performed simply because the music is such a part of the fabric of America, or when it's being done to make a religious statement.

Do we bar school orchestras from performing Bach or Faure or Messiaen? Do we stop school choirs from singing cantatas and oratorios?

I don't think we should.

Perhaps I would draw the line with contemporary Christian music - Amazing Grace, How Great Thou Art, etc., are all part of the American fabric and tradition, so they're okay. But if high school band was gonna play Amy Grant music, I'd say no fucking way.

[renie408]

5. I dunno

I think the combination of "How Great Thou Art" and the giant crosses is over the line. The music is bad enough, winding up playing "How Great Thou Art" while half the people watching were singing along and the kids were waving giant crosses was creepy.

[eyesroll]

4. Musical competitions get a little more leeway

First, they're voluntary. (If this wasn't voluntary, then there is a problem.)

Second, if you got rid of religiously-oriented music, in a lot of instances, you'd have no music. "Amazing Grace" is a standard, for instance. Just like a choir singing "Silent Night" at a holiday concert. It starts to get iffy when the songs get more obscure.

The crosses are a little much, though. (Was the host a private school? In that case, they can do what they want.)

[Silverhair]

6. Legal.

They had a variety of music that represented the culture of SC, and the religion of SC is very much a part of the culture. Further, there were no words.

I suppose you would also be against a teacher wearing a small cross on a necklace. Or perhaps against a teacher bowing his/her head and quietly giving personal thanks before a meal with his/her class in the cafeteria.

What about a small town teacher, who, on campus does everything right to a standard that even you would approve of - but off campus is a minister of a small, very evangelical church? And off campus freely shares his/her faith freely with teens in a youth outreach ministry? Many of the kids at the youth meetings will be the same ones that are in his/her classroom?

[Silverhair]

9. I was responding to the OP. Didn't see your post #1.

That changes it completely.

[renie408]

10. That is quite an extrapolation

My first reaction was to get angry at your series of pompous assumptions. But then I realized that yours was just the standard Christian knee jerk reaction to being questioned. To answer your obnoxious post, NO, I don’t mind if somebody wants to wear even a great big gold cross. That is a personal expression of religion. I don’t care if a muslim girl wants to wear a head scarf to school . I don’t care if a school teacher is a youth minister or a Wiccan, as long as they don’t preach during school or on school property. My family says the Pledge and we bow our heads during moments of silence. I am, in fact, all for moments of silence at the beginning of the day. We say our thankfuls before every meal. YOU DON’T KNOW ME.

But after that sweet little post, I think I know you. After all, my community is full of good Christians just like you.

I am not for Christian hymns being played while kids are waving giant crosses at a public high school. Call me crazy, but that seems to be taking things a tad too far for my taste. Especially since the penalty for NOT participating is being kicked out of band and a failing grade. I would also not be for the band playing “Dixieland”, either. And I will damn well bet that if THAT were the case, NOBODY would be giving me a hard time about it being racist and inappropriate. But how much MORE does that song represent the history of SC??

[renie408]

12. I think I have decided to be angry after all.

You know what REALLY pisses me off? I would defend YOUR right to privately pursue your religion with my very last breath. I have gotten into argument after argument defending anyone’s right to believe whatever works for them. Or not. But I am not free from YOUR religion at a public high school supported with my tax dollars. And you feel as if, without knowing the first thing about me, you have the right to make a bunch of erroneous, narrow minded observations about me because it bothers me. I guess you think it was OK when my sons Social Studies teacher read an email out loud in class that said that 86% of the country believed in god and the other 14% should just SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP. I guess you think it is fine that the Christian First Priority club in my daughter’s school was given an entire page in the annual and included a RELIGIOUS poem on their page. No other extra curricular club was given ANY space in the annual at all, BTW. I guess you don’t have a problem with my daughter’s school handing out flyers for a FOR PROFIT Jesus/Bible study horse summer camp at a place called “His Farm”. I guess you wouldn’t have a problem with the posters that were put up in school that said, “All Christians welcome, we are having a prayer vigil to comemorate 9/11 to be held around the flag pole.” Not EVERYBODY was welcome to honor the victims of 9/11, just the Christians. I live with this silly shit every day. And with people like YOU every day.

Of all of those things, the only one I ever said a single thing about was the email. I went to the Social Studies teacher and said that I did not think it appropriate that the person responsible for teaching my kid how this country works should tell ANY segment of it to sit down and shut up.

Wow. This has really made me angry. Way more angry than the damn eight foot crosses did.

[renie408]

13. And lastly

Oh, and one more thing. The reason I don’t say anything is that I do not want my children to be persecuted by the Christians.

How’s that for irony?

Like my husband just said…Good will towards men? My ass. Good will towards anybody just like me. You know, I don’t think that is what Jesus had in mind. But what do I know.

[dsc]

17. You might want to get off your cross for a moment

and note that you LEFT OUT THE CROSSES in your first post. Just whose fault is it that the responder DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE CROSSES if you LEFT THEM OUT.

Incidently that person has since, and BEFORE YOUR REPLIES said the CROSSES changed the picture.

[countmyvote4real]

7. I would have to draw the line at cross twirling. n/t

[Sparkly]

8. LOL!!

:rofl:

[dsc]

18. I read the whole thread before replying so I know about the crosses

which are over the line. But Amazing Grace, How Great Thou Art, and Promised Land are quintisential hillbilly music. It would be totally remiss not to play such music in a celebration of hillbilly music.

From your OP and your OP alone, this conduct is totally legal. The crosses, on the otherhand, are a big problem. That kind of religious imagery is beyond the pale.

[verdalaven]

19. In sharp contrast is our school system....

Our school board takes the separation of Church and state very seriously. Last year the drama teacher wanted to do A Christmas Carol, she had to get permission from the school board and school officials to let tiny Tim say "God Bless us Everyone!" These are church going people, by the way.

I love our schools. :)

[Ioo]

20. I would say NO, personalty, and here is why

I would say that this is not as wrong as you think.

Here is why, First, I have a PhD in Music Composition, so I am not speaking out of my ass.

Almost without exception, all music that we have today, from Abba to Zeppelin, has its roots in music of faith. In America, that is even more so, because we did not have a renaissance so most our musical heritage came from the church. We brought to the shores of America simple, almost crude instruments, no pianos, no pipe organs, and most of us were on a religious journey in the first place.

The second aspect of this is an emotional connection. I had been in MANY competitions in my musical life, I am a born again Pagan but I will pull out the Messiah from Handle in a heartbeat if I want to win, because it makes an emotional connection to the judges.

Musically, all of those songs are great works, people know the words and know the tune. If I play the best Amazing Grace you have heard, it will beat out "Never heard of you" Op 3 in D Minor.

If you removed the music of faith from music, you are left with very little to play.