Wanna keep losing? Ignore this article...

[Moderate Dem]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/06/AR2005100601645_pf.html

By Thomas B. Edsall
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, October 7, 2005; A07


The liberals' hope that Democrats can win back the presidency by drawing sharp ideological contrasts and energizing the partisan base is a fantasy that could cripple the party's efforts to return to power, according to a new study by two prominent Democratic analysts.

In the latest shot in a long-running war over the party's direction -- an argument turned more passionate after Democrat John F. Kerry's loss to President Bush last year -- two intellectuals who have been aligned with former president Bill Clinton warn that the only way back to victory is down the center.

Democrats must "admit that they cannot simply grow themselves out of their electoral dilemmas," wrote William A. Galston and Elaine C. Kamarck, in a report released yesterday. "The groups that were supposed to constitute the new Democratic majority in 2004 simply failed to materialize in sufficient number to overcome the right-center coalition of the Republican Party."

Since Kerry's defeat, some Democrats have urged that the party adopt a political strategy more like one pursued by Bush and his senior adviser, Karl Rove -- which emphasized robust turnout of the party base rather than relentless, Clinton-style tending to "swing voters."

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[soleft]

1. Want to discuss this in the earlier thread?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4998740

[MisterLiberal]

160. Shame! Shame! Shame!

Centrists came into our party telling us that they would "help us" win and now they want the FUCKING KEYS!

[Oerdin]

165. Wrong.

We were the party up until about 1960.

[peacetalksforall]

169. Right on! When we have extremism, we can't fight it with mousy

acquiescence. A weak position is to acquiesce. If ever people had to speak out = shout out - it is NOW!

[dave123williams]

2. Yeah; that Centrist tack has worked SO WELL for Dems...great idea.

[dolstein]

90. As opposed to McGovern's and Mondale's 49-state losing strategy

NT

[knight_of_the_star]

120. Let's analyze that shall we?

Namely the GOP monkeyed around in the 72 primary to get someone in who they could beat on the image fight and did the same to Mondale. As long as the GOP keeps winning the image war policy won't matter much unless we can shred the imagery they have falsely draped themselves in.

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asthmaticeog]

3. So, wait,

we're going to keep losing unless we do exactly what we've been doing to lose all this time? Clintonian triangulation never even worked for Clinton. Can we please just give up the stupid numbers games and try STANDING FOR SOMETHING?

Oh. also, fuck the DLC.

[Moderate Dem]

7. You can say "fuck the DLC"

Can I then say "Fuck the far left"?

The far left doesn't own this party, and has kept us losers the last 2 elections. I'm sick of it.

[jonnyblitz]

8. the far left kept us losers the last 2 elections?

I have NO IDEA what you are talking about...are you insinuating Gore and Kerry are FAR LEFT? :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

13. They sure as shit didn't help...

How many split off to vote for Greens or some other crackpot party?

[jonnyblitz]

15. oh.ok..THAT theory again...now I understand what was meant.

I thought the poster meant the DEM candidates were too far left.

[Ferret Annica]

101. How many Greens helped the Democrats despite their party ties?

Listen to you. hey, I voted for the third party rather then for Clinton twice, but I voted for Gore and Worked for and supported Kerry. And I am a Green.

I even uncovered petitioner fraud paid petitioners who were using Repug money to try to get Ralph Nader on the ballot after he failed to get a thousand of us Greens and others together in one place on the same night to sign him onto the ballot as he did before here in Oregon.

I sparked an investigation by the SEIU Union of this fraud, and Nader was kept off the ballot. After I came forward, others also signed affidavits concerning the fraud, but it took a "crackpot tree hugging Green" to do so.

Instead of sounding like a FReeper when you speak of us you want to support Democratic candidates for POTUS, why don't you grow up and be a civil adult?

Calling us names is far from engaging in constructive behavior, which is ironic considering the nature of this thread.

[Moderate Dem]

16. Not really, although Gore did get kinda flaky...

I'm talking about the people that seem to get media attention, probably thanks to Karl Rove.

Michael Moore got a lot of college kids asll fired up, many of whom didn't bother to vote, confirming the historical trend. Most of my Democratic friends thought that he harmed the party badly, overall, among "normal" voters. You know, the ones that Bush got about 3% more of...

The far left can look to the far right for a lesson here. If the Republicans lose support among "normal" voters, it will be largely because the far right overstepped its position, and thought that the Republican Party should move to the far right because the party "owed" them.

Radicals' jobs in a party are to help the party get elected by whatever means they can, then gently "nudge" the party in its direction, in my opinion.

[jonnyblitz]

20. thanks for clarifying what you meant even if I don't agree...

I appreciate your response. "normal" is relative, IMHO.

[tnlefty]

30. Among "normal" voters? Could you explain this please?

I'm also curious to know how Michael Moore is considered to have hurt the democratic party? Because donated money to and helped Wes Clark during the primary? Because he made a documentary that got the rightwing blowhards all in a tizzy? Could it be that the rwing blowhards screamed as loud as they did because their lying, warmongering Lil' Emperor had some of his clothing removed and was beginning to be revealed? The Emperor has had no clothes for quite some time so is this to be ignored so we can be more "normal" like bush** voters? I don't want to be anything like bush** voters as I'm convinced that a lot of them are as morally bankrupt as their dear leader.

[paulk]

76. by campaigning for Nader in 2000?

does that qualify as "hurting"?

[Crunchy Frog]

83. So Michael Moore's campaigning for Nader in 2000 hurt Kerry

among "normal" voters in the 2004 election? Is that what you're trying to say?

[paulk]

108. it says "2004" in the subthread?

Guess I missed it.

[nvliberal]

91. Moore had a lot to answer for

when he voted for Nader back in 2000.

But he DID learn the error of his ways this past election and admitted it in his speeches.

So I will cut him a bit more slack.

[tnlefty]

106. I'm not sure of how that hurt in '04, and considering that even in

'00 Gore actually won I don't know. I do know that I had some angry correspondence with the Nader campaign after the scurrilous unSupreme Court installation of Bush** in '00 in which I mentioned in no uncertain terms that I thought we were about to see just how much difference there was between Gore and bush**, but I don't have ill will toward him nor those who voted for him in '00 anymore. Should I also be angry with Badnarik and Cobb for running in '04? I'm not certain of your definition of "hurting".

[Crunchy Frog]

79. So, Michael Moore hurts the Democrats by being so "far left"

but Anne Coulter and Rush Limbaugh don't hurt the Republican party by being far right, extreme, flamboyantly nasty and vicious, and just downright nuts. Michael moore is extremely moderate and reasonable compared with those two, and multiple other RW spokespersons who get tons of media exposure.

Could you please explain to me how that works because I'm just not getting it.

[guruoo]

140. General should...

keep his distance from Moore next time.
It's just a perception thing -the Repugs just did too good a job
at swiftboating Moore..
2008!:patriot:2008!

[Crunchy Frog]

142. Probably true, but

pretty much irrelevant to the point I was making. Ultimately, we need to figure out how to swiftboat the Repugs as effectively as they do the Dems.

[guruoo]

143. We're behind the curve, but....

I believe we're catching up fast.

[Turn CO Blue]

136. RW talking point - that young voters did not turn out in 2004

"Michael Moore got a lot of college kids asll fired up, many of whom didn't bother to vote, confirming the historical trend."

Uh...nope.

Source 1: Boston Globe
Turnout was strong, but maintaining interest is key
By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | November 5, 2004

WASHINGTON -- More young voters cast ballots this year than they have in the last two presidential contests as the record turnout reversed the downward trend in youth participation in national elections, according to preliminary analyses and pollsters.

With the help of dozens of get-out-the-vote campaigns, from MTV's "Rock the Vote" to Artists Coming Together and MoveOn.org, nearly 21 million people between the ages of 18 and 29 voted this year, 4.6 million more than four years ago, the data show. Overall, 51.6 percent of twentysomethings were heard on Election Day, compared to 42.3 percent in 2000.
<http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2004/11/05/turnout_was_strong_but_maintaining_interest_is_key/>

Source 2: San Francisco Chronicle
Next challenge is keeping young voters interested
Joe Garafolo | Sunday, November 7, 2004

Now that a variety of political interest groups have discovered cell phone numbers and e-mail addresses for the record number of young voters who cast ballots Tuesday, the question is when this new bloc will spend their political capital.

Or, if they will.

Organizers across the political spectrum were thrilled that 21 million Americans younger than 30 voted Tuesday, 4.7 million more than in 2000 and about 18 percent of all voters, according to exit poll information analyzed by the University of Maryland's Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning and Engagement.
<http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/11/07/MNG5F9NFFP1.DTL>
=================================

4.7 million more young voters than in 2000.
Under 30 was 18% of all voters.

Kerry won the youth vote in a LANDSLIDE, getting a full ten points more than Bush (Kerry: 54%, Bush: 44%).

[hippiegranny]

92. I'll go even one better, jonnyblitz:

Not only are Gore and Kerry NOT far left, they both WON!!!! This "we're losers because we're not CENTRIST enough" is typical DLC groupthink that prevents real reform from happening where we need it most - fixing the voting process and getting rid of cheater Diebold apparatus!!!

[asthmaticeog]

10. You can say whatever you want,

but it doesn't make your opinion worth a damn. You can blame the far left for whatever you want, but the waffling, chickenshit, GOP appeasing centrists don't own this party either (thank fucking GOD), and it's centrists who've tanked the last three elections.

[Moderate Dem]

17. Then get ready for

another train to Loserville, 2006 and 2008.

Exactly what positions do the "centrists" take that you cannot stomach?

[asthmaticeog]

26. Uh, the Loserville Express is YOUR train. Y'all own it.

You built it, and you're the conductors. Notice how nobody's actually ever won with it?

[AntiCoup2K4]

35. "Exactly what positions do the "centrists" take that you cannot stomach?"

Warmongering
Corporatism
Enabling the Likud PNAC Treason

[Toots]

41. Did the centrists oppose any of the Bush* agenda for the last five years?

What has Bush* put forth officially that did not get passed? I am not talking about the three out of two hundred and twenty judicial appointees, I am talking about bills and power. You want to talk like a Republican and call it normal so be it but be fore warned a lot of us will no longer be taken for granted. Gore got more votes than any other person ever in the history of the US and you say the left ruined it. The DLC is bound and determined to destroy the Democratic party and your post is part and parcel to that happening. Obviously they do not like the Democratic Party so have to "correct" it by making a New Democratic party. One most people do not like or want, except Republicans that is. They love the division within our ranks. Tory is a good word to describe.

[jackbourassa]

154. Don't forget Gore trailed by 15 points when he ran DLC campaign

He only gained the lead when he turned populist.

Kerry was DLC from day one.

So much for that theory.

[Crunchy Frog]

86. Being in favor of unprovoked invasions of sovereign countries

in complete opposition to international law and norms of behavior. I cannot and will not stomach that. There's plenty of other things I don't like, but that one's a deal breaker.

[MrBenchley]

14. Let's point out that the far left kissed Naders's ass in 2000

and were no help at all in 2004.

[welshTerrier2]

31. you know what your endless anti-Nader rants sound like ...

just to be clear, i voted for Gore and did NOT think Nader should have run against him ...

but your endless rants about Nader, who is and was a virtually meaningless political force, sound exactly like the right wing who still blames Clinton for everything that's ever been wrong with this country ...

you explain to a right winger that bush is running the largest budget deficits in history and they point out that Clinton only had a good economy because he created an artificial stock market bubble ...

it's just not relevant ...

and as for your "the far left were (sic) no help at all in 2004", all i can say is that i helped ... i gave Kerry lots of money and worked very hard to elect Democrats ... so what you point out is not right ...

[MrBenchley]

36. "endless antiNader rants"?

I doubt I've mentioned the shithead more than once or twice. I just find it funny that the charmers on the far left here are having a bout of "collective amnesia" about their role in that election.

"all i can say is that i helped"
That's so cute...do you really want to pretend Kerry got total support from the far left?

[welshTerrier2]

39. total support ????

did what you write mention anything about "total support" ???

i don't want to "pretend" anything ... i want to tell you that many on the far left "stuck around" last year and accepted an active role in supporting Kerry as part of an ABB campaign ...

i worked with these people ... attended meetings with these people ... wrote checks with these people ... made phone calls and licked envelopes with these people ... wrote letters, built campaign software, analyzed trends and on and on with these people ... yeah, the "far left" was there to help ... there's no pretending about it ...

amnesia you say? nope, i remember it all very clearly ...

[MrBenchley]

46. Uh-HUH...

And I rant about Nader endlessly, too....

"i want to tell you that many on the far left "stuck around" last year and accepted an active role in supporting Kerry as part of an ABB campaign"
What a curious comment. You mean the far left didn't think John Kerry was a true Democrat?

[welshTerrier2]

49. i think i shall waste no more time with you ...

good day ...

[MrBenchley]

50. ta ta...

It's been a slice of something...

[Sterling]

102. The train to loser ville will not arrive. It's actually a train wreck.

I probably will not even vote again in my lifetime because the system is such a sick joke that only the most naive take seriously anymore. The Dem party is the saddest joke of them all as it stands for nothing and stands in the way of real representation of the people.

I can barely bother to come here to read the news because it has all been so depressing to see that people actually still by into this bullshit.

Congrats to the "centrists" you are firmly positioned to enable the wealthy and prevent any sort of social justice for the remainder of our countries duration, which may not be that much longer thanks to you guys and your RW puppet masters. Good job.

[Nederland]

62. Meaningless Political Force?

Nader, who is and was a virtually meaningless political force...

Excuse me?

Please answer the following:

1) What percentage of the vote did Nader get in 2000?
2) What percentage did Gore lose by?

Now do some basic math and let's revisit your ridiculous assertion...

[welshTerrier2]

69. let's revisit your ridiculous assertion...

of course, for your ridiculous assertion to have any merit, you would have to make the case that those who voted for Nader would otherwise have voted for Gore ...

got any data to back that up ?????

and while you're scrambling to recover from your ridiculous assertion, go ahead and explain to me what percentage of registered Democrats didn't vote at all ... is it just possible that group was 5 to 10 times larger than the group of Nader voters?? ... now that would be a meaningful political force if one could have inspired them to vote ...

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

103. I wish the left had that much power.

If they did the might be able to put the breaks on the corpo RW bootlickers train wreck in progress. As it is the suck ups to the wealthy in our party are free to prevent any real opposition to the interests of the uber elite.

[acmejack]

21. What have you been smoking?

The far left? The frigging middle is on the right. Progressive policies made this party not the DLC centrist BS. And we shall own this party as well, mark my words.

The DLC policy of appeasement is dead, some are a few too blind (or deluded) to recognize that fact.

[Moderate Dem]

27. OK, where are your 64 million leftists?

You're gonna need every one of them without the rest of us...

[welshTerrier2]

34. you are badly missing the point ...

you're making this little argument that the left needs the center ... you argue that the center will just stay home and the left will lose ...

but you're badly missing the point ...

you see, speaking from "the left" (whatever you think that term means), the point is that neither the center nor the left will succeed with a process of unification ... and that's what's NOT happening in the Democratic Party ... there is no process for reform ... there is no process of inclusion for those who feel alienated from the Party ...

your statement that the left can't succeed without the center is true but it misses the whole point ... the point is that changes are needed in the Party ... the point is that with a large section of the Party feeling alienated, we are all in trouble ...

instead of posting garbage that will only further alienate the left if the Party were to move even further to the right, why not call on the Party's leadership to do a better job soliciting the support of the Party's progressive wing ... or would you just as soon do without that support ??

[MrBenchley]

61. By the way....

It's hilarious to hear the same folks who are busily bashing every Democrat currently in office turning around to assure us they can't win.

Hillary won her Senate seat by two to one, and Schumer won his by three to one..and I've heard both of them reviled as "DLC losers."

[Clark2008]

93. Hillary would lose a general election, though.

The base is uncomfortable with her kissing Republican ass and red state moderates think she's too liberal.

Put in a liberal everyone thinks is a moderate and you've got a race.

[MrBenchley]

156. Sez you....

I don't see much from "the base" that indicates any such thing. And how far out of touch with reality does someone have to be to accuse her of "kissing Republican ass."

Try "kicking" it. Good and hard.

[Cooley Hurd]

81. Gore won...

:eyes:

[Turn CO Blue]

137. And will win again in 2008 if he runs as a Populist. n/t

[Lerkfish]

123. my understanding is the DLC said "f the far left" first, and repeatedly

:shrug:

dont realy get how they act so offended to get their own treatment back.

[me b zola]

135. And I can say K Street

From a guy living in Virgina posting on a PROGRESSIVE message board, I'd guess that is where you work.

The "far left" is fucking sick of you corporate bastids. We who you demonize are only asking/demanding that the party return to it's roots of representing the common man/woman. That is all the fuck we want. What we get in return from the corporate interest who have taken over the party is to be called names and spat on for standing up for Democratic principles/values. Here's a refresher course:

We believe in the labor over the few who own the means to work.

We believe in equal rights, that ALL people have the same Constitutional rights as their neighbors.

We believe in war only as a last alternative.

We believe in a social safety net--think FDR

We believe in a strong separation of church & State--just as our Founders did, if you understand history.

We believe in protecting our environment--just as Teddy Roosevelt did. Our grand children's lives depend upon it--but New Orleans would be a more immediate example of the death & destruction that can happen when you spit in the eye of Mother Nature.


These values are decades old. They ARE the Democratic Party. Bug off.

[me b zola]

139. Can you say "copy right law"?

Or did your corporate backers pay for the right for you to post an entire article on a web site? Just wondering. :shrug:

BTW, your hatred of the base of the Democratic Party gave you away.

Buh-Bye :hi:

[leanin_green]

152. Troll Alert! But I like the debate!

Fear of the far left, sounds like to me. This is the overriding fear of any and all moderates and conservatives alike.

Note the 'wacko party' shot at the Greens. And yet, many of the Green Party platform ideas are beginning to have more of an appeal in today's political climate. Corporate corruption, environmental issues ect. If you ask me. When your in a fight, any good boxer will tell ya you need a good left jab. It sets up the right.

[lateo]

161. Wrong.

You aren't seriously saying that the "far left" lost the elections for Gore and Kerry are you? Care to give some examples?

[Cronus Protagonist]

52. Hahaha took the words out of my mouth - the DLC has never won anything

And they never will. They never address the question as to why anyone would vote for a DINO Democrat when there's a bona fide Republican available on the same ballot. They won't, they haven't and they never will, so the DLC can go fuck themselves.

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[welshTerrier2]

4. wanna keep losing? follow the advice in the WP article ...

here's a previous thread on this topic: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2140132

[Moderate Dem]

6. Sorry, I'll go post there...

[welshTerrier2]

11. no problem either way ...

the advice being peddled is horrible though ...

[w13rd0]

5. Want to keep losing?

Ignore reality and keep trying the GOP-lite, corpowhore approach.

[fhqwhgads]

19. can i ask...

...what do you mean when you say the dlc are corporate whores? i'm honestly asking...haven't paid enough attention to this, i guess.

[bee]

56. The DLC gets its funding from fortune 500 corporations

For example: Aetna, AT&T, American Airlines, AIG, BellSouth, Chevron, DuPont, Enron, IBM, Merck and Company, Microsoft, Philip Morris, Texaco, and Verizon Communications.

Theres a very informative American Prospect article about all that here : http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/7/dreyfuss-r.html

[MrBenchley]

9. The Middle is where the votes are...

and that's a fact...

[stillcool]

18. What middle?

We deserve the government we have because of the stupidity and apathy of our nation. The far-left as you love to cite is exactly who? Those who read history? Your venom is unbecoming.

[MrBenchley]

23. So let me get this straight...

You hate the nation you're in and you think what you're peddling is history. Hokay.

[stillcool]

28. Whats up with the antagonism?

i'm not peddling anything. The nation i'm in is my own. Just as my family has issues so does my larger family. I choose to bring those issues into the light and in so doing make adjustments for a smoother road to the future.

[MrBenchley]

37. Gee one of us started ranting about "stupidity and apathy"

and it sure as shit wasn't me.

[stillcool]

42. you're right...

i have run into your posts before and what i posted here was a knee-jerk reaction totally out of perspective. My apology's for doing exactly what i so dislike seeing in others.

[MrBenchley]

48. No problem...

One of the things I dislike a GREAT deal about some parts of the far left is their open contempt (and even hostility) for so many of their fellow citizens, not least because it is apparent to many of their fellow citizens. I'm sorry if I overreacted, but I DO feel that way.

To me, the largest difference between the far fringe of the left and the far fringe of the right is that the far fringe of the right says "We believe thus and so like all Americans do and so do you." Meanwhile the far left says "You believe thus and so like all Americans do because you're a stupid PNAC corporatist sheep."

Which of those attitudes is likely to sway any voter?

[stillcool]

59. the stupidity and apathy i speak of...

are of a personal nature. After spending a good twenty years of my life on a bar stool i emerged virtually unaware of the world around me. It is amazing to go back and view my own history for the first time, and connect political and social realities with my own.

[MrBenchley]

60. Keep strong and healthy, friend...

Glad you've straightened yourself out. That's very admirable.

As I said, what alarms and disgusts me is the contempt some people on the left openly express for their fellow Americans in total. Especially because it's so perceptible to other Americans.

You'll notice Michael Moore has no trouble connecting with the middle...but you don't hear him ranting about "sheep" wither....

I got no problem with singling out, say, the anti-environmentalists, or the gun loonies, or the ghouls waving fetus pictures and screaming at women's health clinics and giving THEM a good bash. But a lot of what I hear from the far left bashes all of America...

[Nederland]

65. True

The middle is where the votes are. The trouble is that the "middle" is not a unified voting block. Consider the following issues:

1) Abortion
2) Gay Marriage
3) Gun Control
4) Taxes
5) Free Trade
6) School Vouchers

Now, what do you call a person that agrees with the Republican party on 1, 2 & 3 but disagrees with them on 4, 5 & 6? Are they "in the middle"?

Now, what do you call a person that agrees with the Republican party on 4, 5 & 6 but disagrees with them on 1, 2 & 3? Are they "in the middle"?

Now you see the problem. I've just describe two people that disagree on absolutely every issue listed and yet they are both "in the middle"? How exactly do you craft a campaign to "win the middle" when the middle is so fractured?

[sadiesworld]

150. The idea that any sizable portion of this country agrees with

our current "free" trade policies is laughable. People are furious over the loss of manufacturing jobs and skyrocketing trade deficits. CAFTA was so unpopular the media had to hide it.

[dorktv]

73. The middle respond to a strong clear message.

So even if ours is far left, we still would get voters simply because we had the sense to make a strong clear (and unlike the Rethuglicans) HONEST message.

[Telly Savalas]

129. Not in the United States, it isn't.

If you look at the bigger context of the Western industrialized world (that is if we include much more liberal countries that have better health care systems and education systems), the Republican Party is a far-right wing lunatic fringe organization. The Middle which voted for Kerry was outnumbered in the electorate by the Right. The only way to overcome this is to expand the electorate by giving habitual non-voters a reason to show up at the voting booth.

[tnlefty]

12. Yeah, I take great pride in approving the execution of a semi-

retarded prisoner. Cruelty is something that I've aspired to all of my life.:sarcasm: Are these authors insane?

[Crunchy Frog]

100. Well, sometimes you need a little human sacrifice

to spice up your political message. Maybe our party would be more popular if it started advocating for public executions in town squares.:sarcasm:

[kentuck]

22. Give them the middle and we will go the "Third Way"...

Sounds like the deal they are making?

[MrBenchley]

25. Yeah, that worked so well when Nader did it....

Guess that must be more of that "history" or whatever...

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. They talk about the 'right-center coalition' that won the last two

elections, but the right did not play toward the center. The squishy center gravitated toward the perceived strength. If the left was to show some strength and backbone, not be seen as compromisers, a lot more of the center would go toward the left.

In this screwed up, winning is everything culture, some people just want to be on the winning side and they aren't involved enought to know the difference -- anybody recognise the phrase 'there's not a spit of difference between the parties'?

That doesn't even touch the issue of massive fraud on the right.

Strong arguments for national health care, for equal rights, for international cooperation instead of antagonism will do far more for the dems than playing to the middle will.

[Moderate Dem]

29. National health care, equal rights, and international cooperation

Are NOT far left issues!

It's the way the far left frames these issues that allows the right to paint all Democrats as drooling, hate America losers.

Kerry actually had really good, centrist issues. How many more votes would he have gotten without the "help" of Michael Moore and the rest of the far left?

There is a place for the far left in the party, it's just not front and center, shouting louder than anyone else.

Remember "clean for Gene" in 1968? The far left in that case went "mainstream" in appearence and manners, and almost nominated a TRULY liberal candidate, in an era that was much more conservative than today.

[welshTerrier2]

55. if you would stop throwing around labels ...

i think you would find that you have far more in common with "the far left" than you think ... the labels get in the way ...

look at what just happened ... some consider national healthcare a far left issue and you don't ... congratulations, you've already started bridging the gap ...

and Michael Moore? ... don't get hung up in the trap of a handful of conspiracy theorists and celebrities ... many on "the far left" have very sound (even if you would disagree with them) ideas on how the country's problems should be addressed ...

this labeling garbage does nothing but divide us ...

[MrBenchley]

57. "this labeling garbage does nothing but divide us ..."

Jeepers, guess I missed where Moderate Dem was throwing around terms like "waffling, chickenshit, GOP appeasing centrists" or "the Loserville Express" or "Enabling the Likud PNAC Treason" or "DINO Democrat" or "corpowhore" or "The squishy center " or "Repugnik Lite"....

"many on "the far left" have very sound (even if you would disagree with them) ideas"
It shows...

[chaska]

64. There is a place for the far left in the party, it's just not front and...

center, shouting louder than anyone else."

How you gonna get a candidate elected without the base of the party? We far lefties are the ones who do all the work in the party. And we're damn tired of being forced to accept these mealy mouthed mediocrities that the corporate controlled powers-that-be keep forcing on us.

[AntiCoup2K4]

32. More DLC propaganda

:boring:

[Califooyah Operative]

115. bingo

[rniel]

33. How come you never see

Republican strategists saying they need to become more liberal to win voters in the middle. They've never done that.

That should tell us something about your strategy.

[MrBenchley]

38. Geeze, maybe you ought to open your eyes...

Ever hear of Frank Luntz?

[rniel]

40. Don't know him but

How many elections has he won?

[MrBenchley]

44. Google "Frank Luntz" and learn, whydoncha?

[Cooley Hurd]

87. Learn about hairpieces?

Luntz has nothing to add other than what hairpiece NOT to use.:eyes:

[MrBenchley]

157. And that's why the Republicans use him to make their shit sound palatable

Because he's an expert on hairpieces...

[MrBenchley]

45. Google "Frank Luntz" and learn, whydoncha?

[rniel]

94. Has he been

More successful than Karl Rove?

How come I've never heard of him then.

All I'm saying is Republicans have won by going to the right. If we adopted their strategy we should be moving to the left not to the right.

[MrBenchley]

158. Well, you've got me there...

I have no idea why you have never heard of the infamous Frank Luntz. Clearly your ignorance means that he cannot be very important.

"Republicans have won by going to the right."
Did they? Last election, Chimpy was trying to pass himself off as a moderate, who was for civil unions, gun control and economic populism in the form of lower taxes on working people.

"If we adopted their strategy we should be moving to the left not to the right."
Again, why does THAT follow? If you want to claim we have to adopt somebody's strategy, why would you then claim we have to do the opposite?

[GreenPartyVoter]

47. Good point

[lostinacause]

130. I hate to break it to you but the speach Bush made at the Republican

National Convention was aimed at the swing voter. The three main issues he brought up were education, employment and terrorism. Education and employment were spoken about to target people who were not the stereotypical republican voter. The goal and probably the result of the speech was to get the swing voter and if I'm not mistaken his numbers did rise. Most conservatives who I talked to about it did not find it to be his best speech, however they were going to vote for him regardless of what the speech did. From a strategic standpoint it was a very good speech. He gained support from an area he might not have had it. He kept reinforcing the point that "America is safer" because of his action. He further reinforced the points about Kerry's perceived weaknesses very subtly.

Looking at political strategy the key to success is typically timing and subtle messages. In an election the key to success is having a (perceived) strength that the public values (or that you can convince them they value.)

In my opinion, an optimal strategy for the Democrats would be to play off of either free trade or the problem with the deficit. Both of these can be made a winning issue as it is possible to take a stance that would be hard not to support on each of these issues. Both of these issues require a moderate stance to get the desired result. A moderate will do better on the issue of the deficit because it is going to be hard to convince Americans to face an increase in taxation to start to pay down the debt and also convince them to face an increase in taxation to pay for more social programs. The state of the debt can also easily be associated with the **REPUBLICANS** and rightfully so. From a free trade standpoint people are scared of a race to the bottom. The Democrats can take a stance on free trade such that the institutions are changed to make it so that the standard of living of the typical American remains high. The “let the market decide” mentality of many of the Republican voters would prohibit them from taking the same action.

[Mass]

43. I hope they will ignore it.

"We dont need a second Republican Party". I could not agree more with that.

This said, this recommendation makes me throw up:

"They suggest that Democratic presidential candidates replicate Clinton's tactics in 1992, when he broke with the party's liberal base by approving the execution of a semi-retarded prisoner, by challenging liberal icon Jesse L. Jackson and by calling for an end to welfare "as we know it."

If they are proud of that, they dont represent me.

[GreenArrow]

51. "semi retarded"

there's no "semi" about it. The man was retarded. The execution of Ricky Ray Rector was one of the most nauseatingly cynical and politically opportunistic things I've ever seen.

[Kammer]

74. Poor Ricky Ray Rector

Ricky Ray Rector was a double murderer and cop killer who was only brain damaged because he put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger, blowing half his brain away after killing the police officer. It was just too bad he didn't complete the job as it would have saved taxpayers a lot of money.

The real compassion should be for the family and children of the victims.

[GreenArrow]

77. nevermind

.

[Savannah Progressive]

53. Agree.

You know, the me too nonsense is getting old. The Repugniks come out and admit they are going to destroy the environment, and the DLC can't wait to get their check by shouting "Me Too, I want to destroy the world more than he does".

Here is a thought, did you Repugnik Lite folks ever wonder if perhaps your problems might come from the Corporate Sell Out mode the party has been in for a while?

[OzarkDem]

54. Their theory has more bugs

than a flop-house mattress.

Someone forgot to tell them that the majority of Americans now oppose the war in Iraq.

However, they are correct on a few issues - Dem leaders still can't get a grip on how to communicate with the voters who make up the majority of their party - women. They keep talking down to women - they have a semi- regressive Catholic approach. They think of women only in terms of their ability to have sex, raise the kids, pay the bills and keep the house clean and take care of the parents in the nursing home. Their policy reflects that POV.

Women want health care for themselves as well as their kids. Women want equal pay for equal work.

[Writer]

58. I am all for this article and the research therein.

The staunch liberals will not dictate to me what my beliefs should be as a Democrat. I'm going to leave orthodoxy to those on the right.

[chaska]

63. More BS. Over the long haul we must get our working class base back...

Not only is it the right thing to do, it's the way to stay in power.

We simply don't give workers enough benefit to outweigh the manipulative devices used by the right (religion, gays, etc.). When we can finally convince them - and it will take years, if not decades - they will return to us. But until we take back the reins from the corporate interests that own our party we're screwed.

[Nederland]

67. Working class?

Would that include the portion of the working class that is pro-gun, anti-gay and anti-choice?

Why in the world should we pursue a group that is politically fractured and shrinking?

[chaska]

70. The parties are defined on the basis of money...

Dems are for the working class. Pugs are business and investor class. That's why we are doing so poorly. We have forgotten this and allowed the pugs to steal our voters.

Promise (and be able to deliver) a man better pay (and etc.) and he won't give a shite about god, guns and gays.

[Nederland]

72. But the parties AREN'T defined on the basis of money

They are defined on a wide range of issues that include cultural ones.

[chaska]

80. And that's why we're losing...

We have to get back on real, not bs issues.

[Nederland]

84. Missing the point

Many people care about cultural issues. You can talk all you want about how they aren't "real", but ultimately people are going to care about what they think is important, not what you think is important.

They key to sucess in politics is to move outside your own little world and imagine how other people see things.

[chaska]

88. "They key to sucess in politics is ...

to move outside your own little world and imagine how other people see things."

Or to change how people see things. That's what the pugs have done. And unlike how they do it, it can be done in a way that actually helps people.

You get the last word.

[Nederland]

89. I hope you're right

I've got a family full of working class Republicans who I swear are Republicans only because they are evangelical christians (I'm the black sheep of the family) and feel that George Bush speaks for them more than the Democrats. I've tried for years to convince them otherwise and am a little cynical that it can be done.

Here's to hoping. Cheers.

[rniel]

97. Somehow

The right has convinced many low income americans that they need to rise up on their own and not be accepting of any government help. Welfare is bad and immoral. No college assistance, food stamps, welfare or government intervention of any kind. But at the same time the rich corporations get government handouts right and left and they don't pay their share of taxes but noone cares.

Poor handouts BAD

Corporate handouts GOOD

[guruoo]

138. They're right -at least for the short run

That's the way it is here in Tennessee. You just can't win here without the moderates, and crossovers. Any candidate that runs on an 'all or nothing' liberal platform in Tennessee would be committing political suicide.


'The liberals' hope that Democrats can win back the presidency by drawing sharp ideological contrasts and energizing the partisan base is a fantasy that could cripple the party's efforts to return to power, according to a new study by two prominent Democratic analysts.

In the latest shot in a long-running war over the party's direction -- an argument turned more passionate after Democrat John F. Kerry's loss to President Bush last year -- two intellectuals who have been aligned with former president Bill Clinton warn that the only way back to victory is down the center.'

[Pithy Cherub]

66. The "Third Way" Horse is dead and will stay dead.

This article is pure sophistry on where power in the Democratic party actually lies. It fails brilliantly on a fair few fronts. The individuals who participate are exceptionally inspired by candidates, partake in party politics and in the volunteer work. Fourteen years ago a candidate did that, but now a new level of political sophistication arises within the inspired that has made the DLC backrooms obsolete.

Fourteen years ago the reference talking points were say it to a talking head or news anchor, and voila, it is so. Fourteen years ago there was heavy reliance on TV news and print mediums for communicating a message. Fourteen years ago campaigns were funded primarily with money collected from a cadre of very wealthy influence seekers (in all their iterations) and Hollywood. Fourteen years ago, cable outlets were fewer with CNN owning the bulk of the coverage. Fourteen years ago, race played an exceptional role in motivating the base votes, Rodney King verdicts. Fourteen years ago, Democrats had a War Room where everything said was challenged within the same news cycle. Fourteen years ago, a man from Hope, felt our pain and he can't do jack shit about fixing it now.

Today, there are Third Way people determined to use DLC Fourteen Years ago as their mantra for the future. It's a new day. More people can select candidates, read platforms, give scads of small continuous contributions and influence who the DNC has as a chairman than the DNC. (The DLC tried their Fourteen years ago strategy in this race too and look who was standing unanimously at the end). There are promising critical discussions on unlocking the hegemony of Iowa and New Hampshire, the liberal left OWNS the blogosphere and more people get their information from an Al Gore invention. Al Gore has moved on and so should the DLC. It is not fourteen years ago, It is a New Day! :)

[incapsulated]

68. Ah, the DLC Handbook...

I thought I lost it!

Oh, and if you can, be Bill Clinton, it helps a lot!

:eyes:

[txaslftist]

75. Right on! Let's execute more retarded people! Then we'll win!

[Pepperbelly]

112. he wasn't retarded.

He was brain-damaged.

:D

[CTyankee]

78. Reading these posts must make freepers happy

Here we are again, eating our own. The repukes are disciplined, ruthless and relentless. They have no shame and take no prisoners. I never see them doing this stuff that we're doing here. They just shut up and vote. We can't shut up and can't seem to defend ourselves against the far right's vicious attacks.

We just have to figure out a way to neutralize their attacks, not with their base, but the influence they have on voters who can't or won't recognize the repukes for what they are. That is what we haven't done.

[bluedawg12]

99. Maybe we talk more than think?

The radical right worked their ideology out years, decades ago.

The repugs are not just a party they are a conservative ideology.

They are not about specific issues as much as they are about an agenda and then they vote for the issues around their agenda.

We need to have preconceived well defined vision of what America should look like in 5, 10, 15, 30 years. Our opponents do.

By the way, Lakoff if correct- they speak in code: I am just listening to shrub talk about "legislating from the bench," the crowd goes wild, they know what it means.

We are also burdened with explaining positions on ideas that have been tarred and feathered verbally and to which most Americans now have a negative gut reaction.

They have been hammering at abortion for decades.
Liberals stopped hammering for abortion, on an equal scale, after Roe v Wade. Because, it is not about abortion, it is about the law and the right to choose but they took away the high minded concept of legalized choice by a woman over her body- and turned it into a powerful image of killing babies. And, they have a point. have we clearly defined for the public the difference between first trimester pg termination and late term?

maybe we can never explain this issue in a way to make it palatable. it is a sad topic.

Maybe it should be about post rape conception, health issues and incest victims and not about women who did not take care to avoid conception. This is a tough one and it hung around our necks like a three day old head of cabbage.

How tough are we on illegal immigration?

Where do we stand on private ownership of guns? And why?
I have a right to own a gun and don't want that infringed upon.

I don't give a damned about international laws or not with regard to Iraq- sorry, just not there, but I do give a damn about national security, a poorly planned idiotic war in Iraq, and fanning the flames of Islamist ( not Islamic) hatred against the west.

[CTyankee]

104. I have to say, with all due respect

that the moderate repubs, like my brother in law and sister in law, support abortion rights but vote republican. I don't get it. He is a member of the Hemlock Society and has a plan for his suicide in case of extreme disability (he has diabetes and is 75 years old). What in the world could he have made of the whole Terry Schiavo debacle?

My sister in law has 2 daughters and 2 granddaughters. That she will not fight for their constitutional rights, even tho she is prochoice, astounds me. I cannot figure this thing out! Wouldn't any mother fight for her daughters right to be safe and alive?

I get it about all the gun stuff and illegal immigration. I just don't get it when it comes to ones PERSONAL decisions. WHY???

[bluedawg12]

107. CT yankee- could it be that they are swayed by economic issues?

Perhaps the libertarian strain of repugs or the moderates on wedge issues give way because they believed (past tense) that the repugs were for lower taxes and pro business?

If you ever find out from them, let us know- it is a puzzle.

I hope we have some realy good pollsetrs who can answer these issues.

One thing about Dems- we don't get canned spoon fed ideas like freepers seem to, we sort it out and think it through.

[CTyankee]

148. The stuff about lower taxes and pro business

seems quaint now. They have seen with their own eyes what happened to a vibrant, prosperous economy under Clinton and the hash that Bush has made of it. A huge surplus turned into a huge deficit. Huge tax cuts to really rich people (not ordinary Repubs)while the economy doesn't get a lift (a rising tide lifting all boats nonsense) and the stock market is stagnant. Plus the war and the now revealed lies that got us into it.

Yes, the blue dress and the cigar and the missing Rose Law Firm files and Vince Foster all seems like a haze in the distant past, crowded out by images of bodies floating in New Orleans, the daily bulletins about deaths in Iraq, upcoming and already delivered indictments. This has got to have an accumulated effect at some point.

[GreenArrow]

82. Democrat . . . Republican . . .

Them's old ways a thinkin'.

[sendero]

85. I just love it..

.... when pointy headed morons ignore the simple realities of elections, especially for President.

People do not vote for an ideology, they vote for a candidate. And they vote AGAINST a party (or a candidate) almost as often as they vote FOR one.

This kind of analysis is frankly ludicrous. I wish they would go work for the Repukes, we could use something to hobble them with.

[Zero Division]

127. "They vote for a candidate": yes, you will hear this often...

from those who identify as moderates or apolitical or those who don't vote very often. It's a very important point to consider.

It's the kind of point that too easily gets lost in the battle between ideologues on either end of the Democratic Party.

[sendero]

166. Good distinction..

... when I said "vote for a candidate", I'm talking the "swing" voters of course. Hard core Repubs and Dems are going to vote Repub and Dem, even if they are running Daffy Duck as their nominee. Look no further than George Bush for an example of that.

[Catrina]

151. 'I wish they would go work for the Repukes'

They ARE working for the Repukes, or at least they are working for the PNAC branch of the Republican party.

Isn't it obvious? The greatest fear of the noecons is 'liberal thought' of any kind!! The DLC, in every missive they've put out, shows a paranoia verging on the pathological, when it comes to anything even perceived as 'liberal'.

And who are they to tell any Democrat what they need to support?

I want them to state what they support, other than their terror and fear of all things 'liberal'.

1. Do they support eternal war, but differ only with Bush in that he didn't kill enough Iraqis to WIN?

2. Do they support fair pay for work, or do they agree with Bush, that free market will determine that a fair wage means 'keep the money in the hands of the corporations and hire illegals if necessary, never giving them legal status, because then they would have to pay taxes and would need a fair wage'?

3. Do they support healthcare for all Americans and oppose the current system where if Americans lose their jobs, they lose their healthcare benefits? Or do they agree with Bush, that healthcare means if you can't afford it, 'too bad'?

4. Do they believe that we should be putting money into Alternative Energy or do they support Bush in continuing to fight wars for oil until the oil runs out?

5. Do they believe in the constitutional right of all Americans to live free from government interference in their private lives, or do they support the Bush administration in their belief that certain 'groups' should be targeted and prevented from sharing in those rights, because of their 'lifestyles'?

There's more, without even getting into the usual 'wedge issues'. I have no idea what this DLC group (I presume they have lots of money which is why Hillary et al are kissing up to them) believes in.

From what I'm reading, they believe that supporting the state killing of a person whose mental abilities are in question, is a great way to get votes!!!!

And from what I've seen before, they love war about as much as the Republicans, so long as THEIR loved ones don't have to fight in them.

Why is anyone even paying attention to them?

I will support only someone who represents my position on the issues. And I'm no ultra leftwinger.

Seems to me, the PNAC hired this crowd to make sure to stamp out liberalism, that seems to be their most important issue. I could care less about Michael Moore. Only the rightwing talkshow hacks seem to care about such things, so I'm pretty suspicious when I see the DLC repeating rightwing talking points.

I supported Kerry despite his vote on the war last time. That is the last time I will do that on an issue that is so important.

The ABB thingy didn't work, either they stole the election, or this 'let's be like them' nonsense didn't work.

And btw, which is it, DLC? Did we lose by ingoring our own issues and getting behind someone who was a 'centrist'? Or was the election stolen?

What total arrogance and BS!!

[sendero]

167. Let me amend my comment.....

.... "let them just admit they are working for the Repukes" :)

[ulysses]

95. woohoo! execute the retarded! fuck the poor!

It just gets better from there!

Pffft.

Know what? Do it. Just do it. If centrists can win an election by yourselves, then do it.

[depakid]

96. Wanna WIN- ignore this article

and any other poster who ignores the evidence of the last 6 elections in favor of the same stupid "strategy" that's cost the Dems not only the majority- but their relevancy.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result

~Benjamin Franklin.

[IndianaGreen]

113. Ding, ding, ding! We got a winner here!

You get a ballon, but no cigar (smoking is bad for you!)

:party: :applause:

[Califooyah Operative]

118. I agree. nt

[radio4progressives]

171. Amen...

:applause:

[Cooley Hurd]

98. Democrats are all about:

Godless Sodomites:

Black People:

Trial Lawers:

Organized Labor:

Abortion for everyone:


YAWN! :yawn:

[feistydem]

105. Dems lost twice because the presidential election was stolen - twice!

voter verifiable electonic voting machines

enforceable & fair polling place practices

prosecution of hackers

and political campaign donation reform from the bottom up!

That's what we need to level the playing field --not 'centering' our party and leaving 1/2 of our members behind.

[bluedawg12]

109. If we had more clout then the paperless machines

would not have been diebolded into place.

Vanity Fair wrote about the potential for abuse with the voting machines, especially in Ohio and they mentioned the Die-bold-asthieves Co. the summer before the election. i had a sinking feeling and wondered how the power players would handle this in ther Dem ranks- I expected a loud out cry. If it came it was not heard.
The media gave it scant coverage and no outrage.

Let's not forget that the media were still butt smooching "mr.9-11 with the bull horn" and afraid of their shadow from the radical right. Boy, KKKarl sure held sway over the 5th estate for the last 5 years or more.

We got freaking side tracked by the politics of personal destruction and before we could ever be heard on the real issues we were against the ropes with the stinking Swiftboatliars and the dredged up little skunk Oh'Kneel from trick dicky days gone by.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Awsi Dooger]

111. I don't know how we can discount these vital paragraphs:

"· They say liberals who count on rising numbers of Hispanic voters fail to recognize the growing strength of the GOP among Hispanics, as well as the growing weakness of Democrats with white Catholics and married women.

· They contend that Democrats who hope the party's relative advantages on health care and education can vault them back to power "fail the test of political reality in the post-9/11 world." Security issues have become "threshold" questions for many voters, and cultural issues have become "a prism of candidates' individual character and family life," Galston and Kamarck argue."

Exactly. The Emerging Democratic Majority was derailed by 9/11. Period. I still see liberal blogs insisting everything is fine and it maddens me beyond description. These short term GOP self-inflicted wounds don't mean squat to the political basics of 2006 and 2008 and forseeable. As long as national security is top shelf we are in peril. Our numbers on that question are still pathetic compared to the GOP.

Married white women are the critical voting block, almost to the point nothing else matters. They swayed in low but decisive numbers to the Republicans after 9/11. Every energy and focus we have should be laser beamed at recapturing their allegiance.

I've posted this PEW party ID link many times before, regarding the ongoing and apparently longlasting impact of 9/11. The study was done long before election 2004 and forecast the underlying aspects of everything that transpired on November 2. We blame Diebold under supreme ignorance, and certainty of future failure: http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=750

[agincourt]

114. I don't think the problem is political positioning,

the problem is a RW smear machine that lies and is believed. A majority of Americans know Bush is a terrible president. It's just that whomever is run by the democrats gets set-up to be worse than Bush, to over-worked propaganda dumb Americans. We need to show Americans how the liars operate at a nuts and bolts level. As long as Americans believe the corporate rat media is a "liberal" one, no great canidate save us whether center, left of center or progressive.

[corbett]

116. I Disagree With Most Of It But...

it reinforces my assertion that a John Kerry/Hillary Rodham Clinton ticket in 2008 would be unbeatable!

[TroubleMan]

117. This article is total bullshit....we just did that for the last two

elections.

Both Gore and Kerry were centrists. They both made it close enough for the repugs to still because they didn't differentiate themselves enough from their opponent.

Kerry in some ways is almost repug-lite, and Gore, who now is showing to be more liberal than he was in his campaign, shot hard to the right when he was campaigning. He acted too centrist, and so did bush.

In 2000, for the untrained eye, it was hard to tell a substantial difference between bush and Gore. Of course bush was extreme right, but you never would have known that from his campaigning, and Gore was moderate left, but you couldn't tell that from his campaigning. Gore seemed almost right of center in many ways in 2000.

We lose (or make it close enough for them to steal), when we don't differentiate ourselves enough from our opponent for the average joe to see the difference.

We just did what the article says to do in the last two elections. It didn't work (yes I know it was stolen), so we need to try something different. The person that wrote this article obviously has a vested interest in the status quo.

[struggle4progress]

119. Wanna win? Organize and stay organized. Stop waiting ..

.. for some mythical party leadership to turn things around. Stop blaming the stupidity of the American public. Get out there: every day, shake the hands, make the phone calls, work the issues. Don't wait until an election year. Make it part of your life. It's a civic responsibility ...

[usregimechange]

121. Do this in red states, do the other in blue states

[sellitman]

122. Horse manure!

Fix the machines and then turn left. The middle of the road is where the skunks get run over.

[bvar22]

124. Fuck a bunch of DINOS

Moving to the center has been working sooooo great for the last 20 years.
What has the Democratic mParty done for Working Americans lately?

They HAVE been raking in MILLIONS from the CEOs of the BIG Corps!


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those who advance the agenda of
THE RICH (Corporate Owners)at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR!

[The Backlash Cometh]

125. How can they be prominent analysts if A) I've never heard of them and

B) They haven't won a presidential election, to my knowledge.

The way things work around here, the Dems keep hiring right-wingers for their campaigns and they keep losing.

[mike_c]

126. that's why we have a green party-- either the greens or the dems...

...will "grow" an electoral base where liberals can come out of the closet, and be proud.

[Telly Savalas]

128. He lost me at "the right-center coalition of the Republican Party"

The GOP is a right-center coaltion?

:rofl:

[bobbieinok]

131. Gore clearly won in 2000--bushco stole election; K/E probably won

in 2004

the REAL PROBLEM is election fraud by the republicans and 24/7 democratic party bashing by the M$M

if democrats were reported on in the same way republicans are, people would hear the message

right now it's just babbling to say democrats must move further to the right

[Jim Sagle]

132. Whadda buncha DLC shit.

[lostinacause]

133. Many of the people who don't believe this are doing so because of their

own preferences. Especially given the reputation the word "liberal" currently has. The "far left" is going to have a very difficult time winning an election. Unless an extraordinary candidate comes from the left the only thing that will defeat the republicans is themselves. A more centrist candidate is able to work the issues to cover a greater range of the political spectrum.

The mean-voter theory says that a centrist candidate will always win a one issue election with rational voters. While elections are typically multiple issues and rationality is far less then ideal the implications of this theory will still lead the winning candidate to the center.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Ah DLC crapolla

keep going right and yuo will win, trust us...

Yeah Right, and we have to believe it becuase they said such... it even says such in the article

On it is shit like this that gets people riled and thinking, hmm maybe it is time... keep it up DLC, you will achieve your split as the RNC masters surely desire.

[lostnfound]

141. Moderate Dem, please trim down the post - Copyright infringement

Max 4-5 paragraphs.
Thanks.

[JackDragna]

144. Yes! Winning elections by killing the retarded!

It's just what the doctor ordered. What? Jesus Christ.

[sepia_steel]

145. No offense

but FUCK 'going down the center'. THAT wishy-washiness, THAT failure to stand up for what most liberals want, is exactly what has been costing us elections. THAT lack of backbone.

You go ahead and be moderate, I'm not judging you for that. But I'm saying that our party hasn't been progressive ENOUGH. Many of our leaders believe in the direction that i think a majority of Dems do, but most haven't fought hard enough or made themselves heard.

The way things are going lately, I have hope that this is starting to change.

I couldn't disagree more with your opinion.

[Raksha]

146. I already saw this article on another forum...

...posted by one of the resident freepers! Every last one of the Repukes on that forum offers the SAME motheaten advice to the progressives (who of course they call "the Far Left.") Not only am I not buying it, I don't even want to HEAR it any more, least of all on DU. Fuck the DLC!!!

[formernaderite]

147. Oh right...the centrists won seats in 94, 96 etc.

Yes Clinton won....but not with a majority of anything. Let's be serious, we lucked out the Ross perot ran. What the article doesn't take into consideration is the 40-50% of the country that chooses not to vote because there are no real choices. Polls done using registered voters offers just a small myopic picture of where the two political parties stand. I'm tired of the so-called independants and undecidedly ignorant choosing who wins.
Let's attract the voters who don't vote!!! Give them a candidate who stands for something more flavorfull than milk toast.

[BL611]

149. Edsall is a great writer

About 10 years ago he and his wife wrote a book called "Chain Reaction" that is simply the best explanation of the dynamics that have caused and maintained the Republican ascendance since the 70's. Everyone on DU should really try to read the book, many of you probably won't be happy with some of his explanation, but I would challenge you to give a rational refutation of them.

As far as the article from what I can tell it seems to be making the point (which is a similar one to what Edsall made in the book) that affluent "liberals" who hold views out of the mainstream on social issues, and tend to flirt with anti-americanism on foreign policy, have drowned out the economic populism that is the democrats greatest boon. Without calling people names and using a bunch of vague hyperbole, would someone like to tell me what's wrong with that assessment?

[jonnyblitz]

153. "anti- americanism' is a right wing termonology .

:eyes:

[welshTerrier2]

155. "anti-americanism on foreign policy"

"liberals" do not "flirt with anti-americanism on foreign policy" ... if you accept this premise, you've been drinking the Kool-aid ...

criticizing the American government and its illegal support of imperialism is not "anti-American" at all ... in fact, nothing could be more American ...

we are suffering with the infestation of our democracy by wealthy, powerful corporatists ... what could be more American than calling on those in office to return our country to the ideals on which the country was founded ... return power to the people ...

the foreign policy we have today puts Americans at greater risk, uses the American military as a private security force to procure oil and other corporate objectives and bankrupts the American treasury to benefit a greedy few ... conflating criticisms of how our government "HAS BEEN OPERATING" with how our government "SHOULD BE OPERATING" and labeling such criticisms as "anti-American" is nothing but lies and propaganda ... there is no higher calling to patriotism than to tell the American people the truth and to fight to restore the ideals of their democracy ...

[AntiCoup2K4]

159. Here's how I define "anti-americanism on foreign policy"

Asking US troops to die for corporate gains, or for the benefit of a third party foreign country quite capable of defending itself.

This anti-american foreign policy is practiced not only by the Bush Criminal Empire and PNAC, but also by their DLC operated subsidiary "PPI".

I advocate an AMERICAN foreign policy. The United States military exists to defend the United States of America and ONLY the United States of America, with the exception of participation in a NATO and/or UN peacekeeping force, the merits of which would be decided on a case by case basis. In NO case would the US military ever be deployed for the interests of corporations, and NEVER again would National Guard troops ever be deployed outside of their home states, unless a national emergency required them to help a neighboring state.

Anyone who calls this policy "anti american" can kiss my white Liberal ass.

[RazzleDazzle]

162. What a coincidence

I was just reading this terrific article by David Sirota in the Nation:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050103/sirota

Looking out over Washington, DC, from his plush office, Al From is once again foaming at the mouth. The CEO of the corporate-sponsored Democratic Leadership Council and his wealthy cronies are in their regular postelection attack mode. Despite wins by economic populists in red states like Colorado and Montana this year, the DLC is claiming like a broken record that progressive policies are hurting the Democratic Party.

From's group is funded by huge contributions from multinationals like Philip Morris, Texaco, Enron and Merck, which have all, at one point or another, slathered the DLC with cash. Those resources have been used to push a nakedly corporate agenda under the guise of "centrism" while allowing the DLC to parrot GOP criticism of populist Democrats as far-left extremists. Worse, the mainstream media follow suit, characterizing progressive positions on everything from trade to healthcare to taxes as ultra-liberal. As the AP recently claimed, "party liberals argue that the party must energize its base by moving to the left" while "the DLC and other centrist groups argue that the party must court moderates and find a way to compete in the Midwest and South."

Is this really true? Is a corporate agenda really "centrism"? Or is it only "centrist" among Washington's media elite, influence peddlers and out-of-touch political class?



Very good article. The DLC doesn't seem to get it, but then when you understand that getting it is not their goal, but to managing perceptions on behalf of large corporate donors, their actions make a lot more sense. It amazes me there's anyone here at the DU who supports the DLC.

And just think, Simon Rosenberg actually ran for DNC chair. Whew! Close call.

[kid a]

163. Question to Moderate Dem - Who loses?

For a progressive "far-left" liberal, there is a no-win situation.

Would I rather lose with dignity, or lose under the false pretense of a "winning" DLC democrat (with wads of cash stuffed in his or her pocket.)

Call me stupid and naive - go ahead, that doesn't come near the offense as the "far-left" label.

[Moderate Dem]

170. If you wanna play the game...

You've gotta raise the money.

I hear right wingers talk about ending foreign aid all the time. They don't realize that that's the way the world system works. We "buy" friends, and often get them to do things that we don't want to do ourselves. It's just the way the game is played, and not playing the game means that we'll lose influence and alliances will be weaker.

It's the same with corporate financing of political parties. Sure it stinks, but it's the system we work within, until we change it. And we're not going to change it until we get more people elected, which means playing the game...

[Oerdin]

164. Best post here in a long time.

I mean it. There are way to many misguided people who think we'll win if we just become extremist nutballs. You can usually tell who these people are because they start spouting anti-DLC nonsense. I hope they read this article and take it to heart but I doubt they will and in all likelyhood it will take years more of losing before they're discredited enough for us to really become the centrist party we need to be.

[The Magistrate]

172. Locking

Flamewar.