Should members of secret cults and societies be ineligible

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

for public office? Or , at the very least, shouldn't it be a disclosable item if one is running for public office?(I am NOT equating religions with cults)

I think we need to have this discussion. Our public discourse of late has been filled with references to Skull and Bones, neo-cons, Bohemian Grove, Bilderburghers, Free-Masons, Opus Deis and God knows what other sub-cults and sects. It raises the question about where the greater loyalty lies - to these secretive, exclusionary societies which are the very antithesis of democracy, or to the secular society that the Constitution described and exists as a framework to protect?

People who belong to these societies with their secret handshakes and phrases believe THE RULES DO NOT APPLY TO THEM. I think we are reaping those fruits this very minute. Why are we reading this crap about "aspens turning in clumps" because they are connected by root systems?

Belong to any society you want - have the handshakes, the tattoos, the secret phrases, the coded letters - but RENOUNCE membership if you accept any public office.

Disagree?

The link below is specifically about Scalia and Opus Dei but I think that the theme can be more generalized.

http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney01172004.html

[whalerider55]

1. you mean cults like...

halliburton, enron, the rnc...

yup.

whalerider

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

5. I specifically used the word "secret"

Employees and shareholders of public companies are not "secret"

[NAO]

23. If you exclude the Illuminati from government, there will be nobody left.

THEY are everywhere...

ILLUMINATI
-- To the tune of "Eleanor Rigby"
11-07-88
Steve Jackson, Joe Vail, Creede Lambard

Illuminati...
They put a thing made of tinfoil on top of my door...
What is it for?
Illuminati...
Shooting a ray at my cornflakes to make them turn green...
What does it mean?
The Illuminati... They're watching me, I know.
The Illuminati... They're everywhere I go.

Illuminati...
Doing unspeakable things in the night to a cow...
Where are they now?
Illuminati...
Sent an impostor in place of the Popsicle man...
What is their plan?
The Illuminati... They're watching me, I know.
The Illuminati... They're everywhere I go.

Illuminati...
They cancelled Star Trek, The Fonz, and My Mother, the Car...
Are they bizarre?
You can't escape them;
Even if you take a plane to Nepal or Peru...
They'll be there, too...
The Illuminati... They're watching me, I know.
The Illuminati... They're everywhere I go.

I know that they know all about me...
They know that I know all about them...

Illuminati...
Hide their assassins' instructions in newspaper text...
Who will be next?
They're all around us...
Underline every third word in the Times and you'll see...
How can it be?
The Illuminati... They're watching me, I know.
The Illuminati... They're everywhere I go.

They're in the attic and the cellar...
Bigger than Hunt or Rockefeller...

Illuminati...
Go through my garbage and count all the pop bottles there...
Why do they care?
They're out to get me...
They're fluoridating my water from their UFO...
What do they know?
The Illuminati... They're everywhere, I see.
The Illuminati... And no one knows but me.

[yurbud]

2. they should be asked if they place loyalty to any organization ahead of

their loyalty to their country.

[cdsilv]

8. they take an oath ....

...when you enter the political arena as an elected official or enter the military, you take an oath to protect, defend and preserve whatever entity your are expected to preserve.

If that oath is in conflict with an oath taken to a secret club (He-man girl haters?) or what, that should either be disclosed, or your membership in the he-man girl hater's club should be publicly and legally be renounced. Preferrably both.

Period.

(apologies to the Little Rascals)

[Coastie for Truth]

3. Does that include TAU BETA PI

(Google it). Jimmie Carter and I are both members.

[JVS]

6. Engineering students with good grades must be stopped!

Only the Phi Beta Kappas demonstrate the wisdom to be our philosopher kings!

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

7. Is it "secret"? n/t

[NorCalDem]

19. Hooray for the Bent! n/t

TBP members, shout out!

[Big Kahuna]

4. Great idea but...

Prove it. :(

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

9. Prove what , exactly? n/t

[Kenroy]

10. No

The first amendment allows us freedom of association.

Further, if somebody was in a truly secret society, how would you know?

[JVS]

11. Yup and yup

[Burning Water]

12. I think this statement

People who belong to these societies with their secret handshakes and phrases believe THE RULES DO NOT APPLY TO THEM over generalizes. Some of them probably do. But you don't have to belong to a secret society to feel that way. Most muggers are not members of secret societies, unless maybe they belong to a gang. Not at all the same thing IMO.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

15. I will relate a true story

A father of a friend was in a management position. He found it necessary to let someone go ( a young person) for a reason that was criminal and required reporting to his superiors and the "authorities" The father of the employee begged for an audience with the father of my friend. The very first thing he (father of employee) did was shake his (father of friend) hand and use a "secret phrase" by which the friend of my father was supposed to know that they were both members of the same secret society. And, of course, the father of my friend was supposed to forget the whole thing happened. Unfortunately, he was NOT a member of the secret society and the phrase did diddly squat. The lesson here is that it was SUPPOSED TO MEAN SOMETHING directed at the proper person.

[Burning Water]

28. OK. I guess my question is this

The father of the friend was not a member of the organization; he did not know the secret handshake and did not know the secret phrase. He told your friend, his child, this story (I'm supposing here). The friend told you (again this is an assumption). Exactly what? That some secret phrase, and secret handshake, that meant diddly squat to him (your own phrase, by the way), also informed him that he was supposed to forget the whole thing?

Does nothing about this story strike you as illogical, even contradictory?

[Chan790]

13. It depends on the secret society...

as an alumni and national board member of a secret society (a college fraternity) I certainly don't think that having a secret handshake, chugging beer at fraternity parties, taking part in some bizzare and sometimes cheesy ceremonies (which do espouse beliefs that I DO believe in), having get up for 3am PT, walking 6 blocks through the rain to change the channel for Brother Sean as a pledge and making pledges raid underwear from the pledges of our sister sorority all before the age of 20 should disqualify me from holding a high governmental office at 40 or 50.

Now if you're talking about some of the more malevolent secret groups in the world...like the illumnati, then yes...being a member of the illumnati should disqualify you from public office.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

16. A college fraternity is hardly secret.

You have pictures in yearbooks, alumni associations, etc. It's cute that you have secret handshakes and all, but you're not really what I am talking about at all.

[Chan790]

24. Don't tell the actives that

I have to pry them off the ceiling every time they think someone *might* have figured out the handshake or the password to the "executive washroom" (The one bathroom in the house stocked with toilet paper at all times.)

In my experience, secret societies (and greek organizations) do the things they do and give the impression they they're powerful...to make the members feel self-important and omnipotent. (I have the benefit of being able to look back and realize that the rituals were not what was really important, it was the common experiences that were.)

I'm convinced that skull and bones is barely more than a greek organization despite all the hype...I know the freemasons are just that as their "secrets" are about the worst-kept in the world, they're in every library in America at this point. It's the boogieman under the bed, people are scared of the unknown...if you knew how boring things are behind the curtain, you wouldn't worry. I mean really...once you get past the cabalistic oddity of the "skull" rituals, it's obviously something that kids with overactive imaginations thought up while sitting in a circle in their skivvies. That ruins the illusion, I can't be scared of a naked, pimply-faced GW Bush sitting in a coffin holding a skull over his crotch...it's just too silly. Bohemian Grove, et al. are just adult versions of the same thing.

I'm more scared of the Federalist Society or PNAC and they're as open-door and public as you can get.

[yurbud]

25. what about all the homoerotic sadomasochistic initiation ceremonies?

I wonder why the religious right has never gone after fraternities...

[AntiFascist]

14. Excellent article...

and there's nothing wrong with Tau Beta Pi members who got good grades!

[Zynx]

17. That is a very dangerous road to go down.

It would establish the mechanism for political and religious persecution in this country the likes of which we have never seen.

[pauldp]

18. No they should not be ineligible, BUT

unless they renounce their membership they should be questioned extensively about the secret group they belong to at any time in public. Just because the members of said secret society want certain things to remain secret does not mean that they should be off limits to the public. The goals of many of these societies often include hidden agendas counter to the interest of the American public.

So if a member of a secret society runs for or is nominated for public office then they should expect questions like: "Sir I understand you had to lie in a coffin with a skull over your genitals and recite your sexual history to a bunch of hooded white men while they spoke ancient latin incantations. Could you comment sir on how this affects your candidacy?"

[Kagemusha]

20. Freedom of association is meant to protect these groups.

You'd have to rewrite the Constitution, and I don't think you'd succeed.

Better luck next time.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

21. I understand freedom of association

and believe me, I depend upon it. My question was based upon a premise:

If you accept an elected office, will you hold your duties to your constituents as your highest and noblest duty without preference or pejudice as to their or your private associations?

[HawkerHurricane]

22. No.

Sorry, 'freedom of association' still exists.

Of course, while they are allowed to run and serve, I also believe they should be outed from whatever secret society at the earliest possible moment.

[ladjf]

26. Most definitely.

[Pepperbelly]

27. If it's a secret, how would you know?

They'd make a point of keeping it far more secret if this were to be reality.

:shrug:

Seems like it defeats the point, whatever that might be.

[NNadir]

29. Who exactly will decide what a cult is?

I am an atheist. Is that a "cult?"

Scientology?

Roman Catholicism?

A Mormon?

I certainly don't trust any public official to designate what is and is not a cult.

[hyphenate]

30. I think disclosure is one thing

but many of those groups are not very dangerous. Freemasons have been around since the days of King Solomon and many of our founding fathers were also Masons. Masonry has a lot of religious lies, but they are also an organization which gives generously to non-political groups and charities. I'm not up on the others so much, but I don't think that there is much that can be done about a lot of these "groups"--except for some "higher on the totem pole" secrets, much of what is done is on a very open basis.

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Why not ban former cheerleaders?

After all, both George W. Bush and Trent Lott cheered for their universities -- see the connection?