I think Monica is still haunting us (and all Dems)

[Doctor_J]

I was getting my haircut yesterday, at a place that does about 3/4 women and 1/4 men. A recent issue of one of the women's-oriented glossies (GH, IIRC) was lying on the counter, and on the cover was the Big Dog, looking great and very presidential and leaderly. About 5 min into my cut someone commented on it, and him, and the general consensus among the women was, "I really liked him until he cheated on his wife". Do you think this thinking prevails? I know the voters rallied around him during the persecution, but beyond that many are still mortified at his behavior. Does it hurt even the very best of our men like Al G and Carter and Edwards? Is this why the VRWC keeps his name alive?

[ixion]

1. yes, adultery seems to weigh more heavily than murder with the sheeple

I'll never figure that one out. :crazy:

[abluelady]

5. I'll figure it out for you.

When you cheat on your spouse you show terrible disrespect to the person you should treat the best in your life. Betrayal is a cowardly characteristic. If you don't like your spouse, leave.
If you live your personal life deceitfully, then how can your public life be trusted? Just my personal opinion and believe me, I'm not a sheep! I've seen way too much of this to just disregard it.

[Pepperbelly]

9. and tht is worse than murder?

Huh?

:wtf:

[abluelady]

11. Depends what you're talking about.

My guess is there are many wives/husbands out there who would have rather been killed than betrayed.

But if we're talking about the war in Iraq, of course Bush has done way worse, imho. But if you're a warhawk, he is doing just what they want.

I agree with you 100%. I was just saying there is more to cheating than may meet your eye.

[Andromeda]

73. Now that's really a stretch...

there are many husbands and wives who would rather be KILLED than betrayed?

My last husband cheated on me and HE'S the one I wanted to kill.

Sometime people forgive their spouses for cheating on them so please do not assume that you speak for everybody. If they want to make their marriages work then they should be encouraged to.

People make mistakes and who are we to say they don't deserve to be forgiven?

What really gets me is that some people are so judgemental and narrow-minded about what other people do.

[tandoori]

81. Murder is out of context here...the women in the barber shop were

talking about cheating on your wife. I don't know of any
president who has murdered his wife so it is irrelevant to
the discussion here.

[Burning Water]

12. I tend to agree

with you on this issue. But I think it is much, much more.

Clinton only lied about sex, true. But he did it in a court of law. That gave the Rs the perjury charge to hang around him. Perjury is a serious charge, and it doesn't matter to the law what it was about.

Then there was the way he handled it. Does anybody remember Bob Livingstone? Newt Gingrich has practically fallen off the public awareness. When Rs are caught, they step down out of the limelight so far as possible, giving their enemies little to shoot at. Look for example, Tom Delay. He stepped down, although he did not resign his seat. This takes a lot of public attention and concern off him, leaving him free to fight more in the court of law.

Did the Big Dog step aside, or otherwise deflect public concern? He did not. Instead, he accused the Rs of trying to overturn the results of the election. This was a fairly ridiculous assertion, as Al Gore would have stepped up and been President. He probably then would have beaten GWB in 2000, and we wouldn't have all these many disasters of today. Clinton probably should have fallen on his sword for the sake of his party and country.

There are a number of DUers, I've noticed, that seem to think that if we can impeach Bush we can overturn the last election and John Kerry will be inaugurated. Wrong. Cheney will just take over. Nor will we be able to "undo" the appointment of a "criminal administration". They are perfectly legal and binding. Not that impeaching Bush wouldn't be something to be accomplished for its own sake, it just won't change the course of the country. Only a new election has the chance of doing that. 'Course with Diebold, etc. That won't do any good, either. Or so I've been told. Especially if Bush manages to pack the courts.

Well, I'm not giving up, and neither should you. The only way democracy can die is if the people let it!!!

I seem to have gotten a little off subject, but I think I will post it anyway. Have a good day.

[nvliberal]

18. The plain truth is he didn't even lie about that.

Your premise is totally false. You have utterly no understanding of what the Clinton witchhunts were all about.

They had nothing, absolutely NOTHING, on him, and the Jones lawyers tried like hell to get him to slip up. Remember, they already KNEW the exact nature of the "relationship" between Clinton and Lewinsky because Tripp told them, but they refused to flat-out ask Clinton exactly what kinds of sex acts took place between them.

Recall, if you will, how the Jones lawyers acted when Clinton and Robert Bennett tried to get them to flat-out ask, and they refused on the basis of how embarrassing it would be and all. They KNEW if they had asked him, he would have told them.

And that would have been the end of their politically-motivated witchhunt, motivated by a desire to gain seats in the 1998 elections. Thus they asked him questions so convoluted and tried to twist Clinton's answers to make it look like he committed perjury, but THEY knew he hadn't.

It was important to manipulate public opinion on this matter to help the Republicans in the fall.

If Clinton had stepped aside, you know damned good and well they would have gone after Al Gore, because this whole thing was NOT ABOUT CLINTON; it was a coup attempt to oust a legitimately-elected president whose only crime was being a moderate Democrat.

Clinton could NOT resign because of the horrible precedent it would have set.

At least for a time, our democracy was preserved, but in retrospect we can see this was the opening salvo of the fascistic overtaking of our government.

[Burning Water]

39. I disagree with your analysis.

I think you are wrong. But, who knows, maybe you're not. Here's the point, though. Clinton is still a point of controversy and divisiveness in this country. The Republicans who stepped aside are not, as they are now irrelevant.

[FreedomAngel82]

47. And the only reason that is

is whenever they get caught in something they automatically bring it back to him "well Clinton got caught lying about his sex life!" When they do that you need to turn it back to the person orignially being talked about whether Bush, Rove, DeLay etc.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. really?

Watergate is still a sore point

And don't count them eggs, insofar as these boys

You are also discounting the other major element in this.... can you say Media?

They keep harrasing the Clenis five years after the fact, hell, we had Rush talking of Vince Foster the other day... but the so called libby media has not told peiople about Ken Lay, or Gingrich or for that matter followed up on Delay.

So your premise is partially colored by pink glasses

[tandoori]

83. Why are you listening to that blow hard Rush????

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. I'm not but the media monitors are

that is what Brock does and does well

;-)

He gets the headache and I just get the data

By the way welcome to DU

[tandoori]

98. Thanks Nadin

Any relation to Zbignew?

[AlGore-08.com]

65. I'm sorry, but "they KNEW if they had asked him, he would have told them"

Is not supported by the facts. If you read the deposition, you'll see that Clinton was asked other questions which were not "did you have sexual relations with Monica Lewinski as defined above", and Clinton's answers were lies, and he was under oath at the time.

It's very clear from the deposition that the questions that Clinton lied in response to are all building to the question "Did you have a sexual relationship/an affair with Monica Lewinski". The lies that Clinton gave prior to the lie of "I did not have a sexual relationship with her as defined above" were almost certainly an attempt to keep the fact that he had an affair with Lewinski secret.

Whether Clinton should have been impeached based on the lies he made under oath are another discussion. But he did lie, and he did lie under oath. To claim that he did not, or that he was justified in doing so, does not advance our cause. It makes us look like we don't care about the truth any more than the Freepers do.

Additionally, the idea that "since Clinton's lies were less of a crime than Bush's war, folks should automatically vote Democratic" is another idea which does not win votes. It's not logical. If somebody said "FDR rounded up American citizens and put them in camps, Reagan never did that, so you should vote Republican", would anybody here run out to vote Republican? No, because it doesn't make any sense.

One can discuss the political side of the impeachment, and whether it was justified, without abandoning the truth.

[Bunny]

30. Tom Delay was FORCED to step down, according to the rules

established by his OWN party. There was NOTHING noble about Termite Tommy's stepping down as Majority Leader. But I'm curious as to why you are so determined to defend the Republicans.

[Burning Water]

40. I am certainly not trying to defend

the Republicans. You should re-read what I said. but let me put it in simpler terms. Regardless of the wrong-headedness of their policies, the lack of compassion for the poor and weak, their racist mind-set, and all the other negative qualities they have, they are much better political tacticians than most Democrats seem to be. They know when to cut their losses. They don't let a single individual drag the whole apparatus down with him. So the sheeple don't stay stirred up about whatever it is they did.

Does that answer your question??

[FreedomAngel82]

48. Exactly

And remember they even changed the rules so DeLay could come back! Remember that? And then he went on all the talk shows and was whining and lying saying that the prosecutor was a partisan hack. My dad had it on fox this morning (he either watches that or CNN) and this host guy on the friends show or whatever it's called was whining about that. :eyes: Someone was on there talking on the opposite side of fox and that's the last thing he brought up and they didn't even go back to the other guy to let him talk. :eyes: They "ran out of time" conventantly.

[FreedomAngel82]

44. I don't agree

Clinton shouldn't have fallen "on his sword". His approval raiting was 60% when this was going on. Now if his approval raiting was 38% or lower then MAYBE. But no. Clinton was the last elected president and should've stayed there. They spent $60 million and all they got was his penis. They're immature and lonely people who need to get laid and get a life and learn how to respect government or get out of the way for people who do. I get tired of these assholes who care nothing but themselves and let the rest of us go poor and/or die in an illegal war.
You have to be able to prove that the election was stolen and if it's proven they have to leave as stated in the Constiution. Cheney would have to be impeached and the whole gang and Hasert has some crimes as well.

[Yupster]

59. Clinton shouldn't have resigned

He should have flown to Little Rock and in the Town Square held a press conference with thousands of Arkansans there.

He should have announced he made a horrible mistake, apologized for it, and then answered questions from the press until they couldn't think of any more to ask.

After about an hour, when the questions would be the same as the ones he already answered three times already, the citizens would start booing the press, and Clinton would be done with the scandal.

He's the one who prolonged it for over a year by lying for so long. If Monica hadn't kept the dress, he still would be lying about it today.

[Burning Water]

70. That would

have been very good. Nixon wasn't forced to resign because of the Watergate break-in. It was because he tried to cover it up, tryng to protect some friends. Friends you have to protect are not friends you need.

[eridani]

92. There was a reason why his approval ratings were up

Not because people approve of adultery, but because for the first time in his presidency he stood up for himself instead of triangulation.

[Andromeda]

71. You're wrong about everything...

He didn't commit perjury. There was no legal basis to indict him for perjury. If they had reason to indicte President Clinton, they would have indicted him---and don't think they didn't try.

The right wing was trying to overturn the election. That was the whole purpose of going after Clinton.

I followed the whole thing CLOSELY so why don't you inform yourself on the facts instead of spewing right-wing talking points.

[eridani]

91. But it wasn't perjury

Perjury is lying under oath about a material fact. The only people who think that facts about consensual sex are material facts in a case about involuntary harassment are the puritanical sociopaths and testosterone-poisoned pustules who think that a rape victim's prior sexual history is a material fact in a rapist't trial.

If you lie under oath about your tax returns when you are on trial for murder, that is not a material fact. (Unless your alibi was that you were filling out tax returns on the night of the murder, but evidence shows a prior date, in which case that would become a material fact.)

[Southsideirish]

13. I agree. Clinton is a terribly flawed man. I voted for him but I could

never stand him, personally. He was and is an embarrassment to the Democratic party and will be for many, many years to come.

Cheating on your spouse is a breach of a person's most important pact- with your chosen life partner.

[nvliberal]

15. Yeah, he was really terrible.

He slipped up when he was in the middle of the shutting down of the government, and then he broke off the non-affair, unconsummated "relationship" because he cared about Chelsea and Hillary.

He was just scum because he supported family values.

At the same time old Newt was out fucking his girlfriend and God know who else in the back of his Mustang while second wife Marianne (who he dumped his first wife Jackie for) was out of town.

People need to quit buying the horseshit spewed by the media.

[Bunny]

31. Uh, Clinton didn't shut down the government. Gingrich attempted

to shut it down, and got his ass handed to him. Hahahaha, boy did I laugh at that one!!!

[nvliberal]

16. The problem is, this case wasn't it.

Clinton BROKE IT OFF with that idiot Monica because he cared about Chelsea and Hillary.

He knew this non-affair was wrong, and he did what was right by breaking it off.

Contrary to media propaganda, this wasn't even an affair. It was a big nothing, exploited by the likes of Ken Starr to affect the 1998 elections.

Clinton never gets enough credit for this, but instead we read all sorts of shit that if one "cheats" on his or her spouse, he or she can't be trusted for anything else.

Which is bullshit and plays right into the right-wing playbook.

[FreedomAngel82]

49. I personally respect him for doing that

He and Hillary could've easily divorced since divorce is like going out and buying an ice cream cone now days. But they stuck together and made their relationship work and they cared about their daughter as well. You can always tell how important Chelsea is to them when they look at her in their eyes since they sparkle so. I admire both Hillary and Bill for what they went through with that shit from them and how they stayed together. I think that's the second biggest blow to them besides Bill staying in office and having a successful term and all he did for the country and he's still widely loved and popular.

[DU me]

24. Everything that you said is true. BUT That is very narrow minded and

hippocritical thinking. What I mean is that, the thoughts shouldn't stop there. Practicality and history will show that it is not uncommon for powerful men and leaders to have affairs. While not something people honor or brag about, neither is starting unjust wars or a series of lies that can be proven by just watching Bush's speeches. Any 3rd grader can catch him in numerous lies.

While what Clinton did was wrong, I would strongly call people out on their judgements and let them know that while I don't agree with cheating on a spouse, looking at history, it is not uncommon. Looking at Human History and cheating is one (or two) of many sins involving dishonor. Since when have you or me become sinless? When have our homes stopped being made of glass? I look at the effect that his lies have had on our country, how many lives were lost because of Monica and Bill's affair? I would ask them things like that and then I would ask how many people are in jail for affairs and how many people are in jail for killing people? Because that is what it comes down to. If people want to be morality judges, I would rub Iraq in their faces until they were sick to their stomachs.
I would also throw in how many people Jesus killed and believed in killing to get out his beliefs and message.

[abluelady]

27. Why is thinking something wrong hypocritical?

Perhaps if people went to jail there would be less adultry. What is hypocritical is repugs screaming family values while they are out screwing around on their wives/husbands and their country. But they think gays marrying is bad for families?

Nobody is saying Clinton was worse than Bush. But to be like the repugs and not see things that are wrong and keep hiding mistakes, no thank you. I will never be one of them. Bush starting a war for lies and having children killed is horrible.

It didn't happen but what if Clinton's fiasco was with a spy? Remember that Dick Morris being in bed with hookers and being on the phone with high muckety mucks in government. Don't think just because lots of people dishonor their spouses, that it is a minor wrong.

It is nearly impossible to try to compare wrongs. I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you.

[DU me]

54. When people get all bent out of shape about Clinton's affair and ignore

Bush's war, economic policy disasters, inept handling of Katrina, sleeping behind the switch on 9/11....well, I would be laughing in their faces for such their obsession with such a petty human sin.

I sin, you sin, we all sin...I can say with a overwhelming amount of certainty though that none of my sins (or yours either (guessing by a leap of faith)) led to anyone's death, can Bush?????

THAT is my point.

[abluelady]

55. That is Hypocritical

Absolutely. But that is what the repugs are known for--hypocricy. I am just saying that for me to not think what Clinton did was bad would be hypocritical. I do believe my leaders can make mistakes.

There is a huge difference between the mistakes Bush made and Clinton made. I will not argue that. But if Clinton hadn't fucked around, America would be stronger. Bush would not be president.

[DU me]

56. I really wouldn't blame Clinton for Gore's getting the Election

stolen from him. Nor would I blame Clinton for Kerry getting the election stolen from him. I would blame the theives....stealing is also morally wrong.

Clinton was getting hammered before he even took office. The "Right Wing Radicals" went on the most agressive fishing expedition that I have ever witnessed. They EXPLOITED any and everything that they could get their grimey hands on. It was so apparently obvious that no matter what, "they were going to get their man", no matter whether Clinton was a saint or a sinner. Clinton though was pretty sharp, he was elected and then he was re elected. If Clinton could have run for a 3rd term, he would have won again.

Gore took the high road and look where it led him.

Carter took the high road and look where he ended up - only 1 term. Where was their Monica screw up? No, the Monica story got to the dumb asses that didn't know any better to argue against Clinton in any other way. Monica is the only thing that they can really bitch about and sound like they are standing on the moral high ground. They are simpleton's using a simpleton argument to make themselves appear righteous and smart. The truth is, they are hippocrates that are dimwitted, lazy and shallow.

The Repubs have gotten even slimier and meaner and became more unlawful and they STOLE the last two elections, (remember, we did win) denying OUR right to have a President that was fairly elected.

Clinton was guilty of being human like the rest of us, if he were God, then maybe just maybe the Repubs wouldn't have been able to pull all of their shit.

Clinton was wrong. You are right about that. Don't you agree though that #1 The Repubs were going to get him on SOMETHING (Remember he technically was impeached because he lied under oath, the lie could have been about ANYTHING, and #2 We still won the last 2 elections.

Maybe some people who are tongue tied when somebody mentions Clinton and Monica, they should mention GWB and Cocaine.

[abluelady]

58. That Was One of My Points

The RW nuts were determined to find something on him. Most of what they found was not true. He gave them quite a find!

Remember back then we didn't want Bush elected, but I know I didn't realize how bad it was going to be. If Gore could have used Clinton, perhaps the numbers would not have been so close so the election would not have been able to have been stolen. Hindsight is wonderful, isn't it?

Again, you're preaching to the choir when you talk about GWB, but Clinton did mess up. And, again, I will say his mess up doesn't compare to Bush's, but think about what it would be like now if Bush hadn't been given the election in 2000.
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[DU me]

67. RW nuts were on a witch hunt, it would have been something...

Gore lost because of theft. Sure it was close but that doesn't equate to a win. Besides, Clinton would have been elected to a 3rd term if he could have run. It was a likeability factor that stung Gore, he just wasn't as "appealing" a candidate as was Clinton and choke, choke Bush. I always figured that they (Repubs) got as much a "Clinton like" candidate as possible to run. They realized that the media really is the most important sales tool of a candidate and if the candidate has charisma, then more than 1/2 of their job is done. Gore didn't have much charisma. Bush - choke choke - did/does (to dumb asses- I had to throw that in). He is the kind of guy that you want to have a beer with!?!? My response to that: Since when did being a good beer drinking buddy become a requirement for the President of the United States? Personally, I would feel better if the President WASN'T a drinker. THAT is what did Gore in, his lack of charisma. The Clinton scandal just enabled the "higher moral ground" claim by the Christian fundies. As hippocritical as it is. If Gore had been more Charismatic, his win would have been by a wider margin. The people running his campaign did a piss poor job for what could have been a fine President. AND WE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE let the theft stand.

[FreedomAngel82]

51. Exactly

When history talks about Bill Clinton it'd probably mention a brief thing about the whole affair and then list his other great accomplishments. The only people who this affair will still matter to is those republicans who bring it up everytime they're in trouble. When I'm fifty they'll still be doing that I betcha.

[tritsofme]

63. I doubt it, peace and prosperity doesn't make the history books.

Does the average Joe on the street know who was president during the the 1920s?

In historic terms, his impeachment was the most consequential event of his presidency.

Being only the second president in US history to be impeached will probably receive much more prominence 50 years from now than the economic boom.

His eight years in office were pretty much about maintaining and slightly improving the status quo, and doesn't make for an interesting read. Saucy sex scandals and impeachment does.

[Yupster]

64. Agree tritsofme

How was the economy when Benjamin Harrison was president? How about William Taft? Who knows and who cares.

The fact is that the history books rarely makes a big deal of the economy unless something goes frightfully wrong. Hoover and FDR are known for the economy. They're about the only two presidents though.

Other than that, what will history remember Bill Clinton for?

He got impeached and he couldn't keep his hands off the help.

[ixion]

41. betrayal is cowardly... what about murder?

how is that in any way better?

Oh, and the "I'd rather die" defense doesn't cut it. There's a big difference.

[abluelady]

50. I guess I believe sometimes murder is okay.

Therefore, I don't consider it cowardly. Can't think of one reason that makes betrayal okay. People lie because they are not strong enough to tell the truth, imo. Look at our commander in chief! One of the weakest people I've ever seen.

Sorry. We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Tomee450]

52. There are no perfect people.

Adultery has been going on since the world began and will continue. FDR, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin all cheated on their wives and all contributed greatly to this country. Are we better off now under Bush than under Clinton? I think not. Some people did not vote for Gore because he was part of the Clinton adminisration and they despised Clinton's morals. What good did that do this country. Look what we have now.

[abluelady]

53. I'm With You

We were much better off as a country with Clinton President than Bush. And I don't care how many men and women (nowadays) cheat, people in certain positions need to be better with their decision making.

So much more could have been accomplished by Mr. Clinton if he had made better choices in his personal life. The RW nuts were out to get him and he gave them a reason---dumb, dumb, for such a brilliant man.

[Andromeda]

72. It was nobody's business what Clinton

did in private. It was about SEX, madam. Don't proselytize about morals and how people should act.

Talk about splinters and logs!

Hillary was the only one whose opinion really mattered in this case--not yours or mine because she's married to him.

Why do you have a problem with that? You should be looking at the behavior of the Republicans and how they overplayed their hand in the impeachment process. Those people are just plain nuts!

Sorry, but there's no moral lesson in this, just a purient interest in sex, lies and videotape---a public nightmare for America.

[FreedomAngel82]

43. I keep saying

they're obsessed with sex!

[WinkyDink]

2. People want to peek at sex, not face war.

From our Puritan beginnings until now, Americans have preferred to be titillated.
Some are honest about it; Republicans are not.

[MadisonProgressive]

3. Many men cheat on their wives and girlfriends

It's not right or condoned by any stretch of the imagination, but my point is that you probably know a man or woman that has cheated and think they are great people. You just don't know about their cheating. They didn't have a multi-million dollar investigation into every facet of their personal lives.

[afdip]

4. at some point, we need to

remind those who are still haunted by bill clinton's indiscretions, that he is not running for anything. he has not been president for five fucking years now. to continue to kvetch about that blow job while bushco is gang-raping the country is ludicrous.

[peace frog]

6. The fact that a bj is but nothing compared to

mass murder and corruption on a scale heretofore never seen in this country seems to escape the notice of some... but they are not in the majority IMO. Most people are not so simple-minded.. it may take a while for them to notice, of course (as we have seen in Junior's America) but when they finally do sit up and take note, they draw the right conclusions.

[davikim]

7. a right winger I work w/

was bringing up the bj thing and she was appalled, just horrified. Some in this administration might be taking bribes but Clinton got "AN ORGASM" That was her main point of horror, the orgasm. No wonder these people are sooooooooooooooo miserable!

[lateo]

8. Why isn't Jennifer Fitzgerald haunting the Republicans?

If Monica haunts us and damages our reputation...why don't we bring out Bush 41's mistress and give her a good airing out?

[Yupster]

75. You think that will help?

Poppy Bush denied ever having an affair with her.

She is dead but to her dying day she denied ever having an afair with him.

So you have two people who both deny the affair. What else do you have?

Anything besides gossip and whispers?

You think publicizing that will help? I think it would be a complete and total disaster.

[lateo]

77. Clinton denied Monica.

This affair was found out during the Iran/Contra investigation. The evidence was strong enough then. Do you really expect us to believe Poppy?

Come on.

[Yupster]

78. What evidence?

I guess I need to be enlightened.

All I've ever seen is "long rumoured," and "Washington insiders whisper..."

[lateo]

95. Nope...

The special prosecutor investigating Iran/Contra discovered this. The thing that pisses me off is the fact that the Democrats at the time said..."its a private matter". Yet, during the 1990s the Republicans used Monica as a bludgeon against Clinton.

[acmavm]

10. Oh for Pete's sake, it was the lie. I didn't give a damn whether he

diddled Monica or not. I was aggravated that I was forced to hear and read about the details everywhere, but there are just some things you can't escape.

It was when he lied and then started parsing words, "it depends on what your definition of..." Then I got mad. Because something that, if he would have just said "yeah, I did it, I'm sorry, now bite me I have to go deal with Hillary" might have just run out of gas. He would have been known as a philanderer and a cheat, but so what? Even Poopy had his fling(s).

But the lie and the weaseling. That just poured fuel on the fire.

[newspeak]

62. it never should have been an issue

many people say "it was the lie." However, it never should have been in public or an issue!!!! Can we go back in history and put Eisenhower or JFK on the spot about their sexual indiscretions? What makes Clinton so different than them----he was targeted by the RNC with help from the media to make it an issue!!!!!!! Now it is his lie, it's all about his lie; but Georgie's lies get people killed and to me, are much more destructive than Clinton's. Where's the people's outrage about his lies? Oh, I guess if the media doesn't show it 24/7, therefore, it's no big deal!!!!!

[Yupster]

76. A good general rule in any management position though

is to keep your hands off the help.

Also, Eisenhower's most recent biographer examined the evidence and opined that Ike and Kay Sommersby probably did not have a sexual relationship.

Who knows for sure?

[newspeak]

79. okay

how about Harding? how about Poppy? and I don't know if i'm going to believe Eisenhower kept his hands off . Again, it depends if the media wants to make it an issue, isn't it? 24/7 of Monica and Clinton--I was so sick of it.

[Yupster]

80. Yes of course

It's not just a Clinton rule. It's a general rule for anyone in management. Keep your hands off the help.

I happen to be a manager and I do have a woman secretary and I will tell you that I am careful the way I behave around her. I don't tell off-color jokes, and I don't even tell her she looks nice in certain clothes. You have to be careful about the work environment you're creating when it's a man-woman office. And I do all this and I don't even have a sexual harrassment lawsuit hanging over me.

Now to the subject of Harding, Poppy and Ike, I would be categorical about it. They all needed to keep their hands off the help. If they didn't, then I condemn them for it.

As far as I know the evidence is far stronger for Harding than for either Poppy or Ike, but guilt or innocence aside, I condemn any manager who has an affair with women working for him. In an uneven power arrangement like that, it is not good for the company or whatever the organization is.

[meow2u3]

14. CONservatives are obsessed with illicit sex

They obsess over the illicit sex of others, especially their opponents, to divert attention from the sexual skeletons in their own proverbial closets. This way, Americans will never find out how perverted the cons really are if they get the media to focus on Dems' sex lives.

[cassiepriam]

17. That is how good the repug propaganda is.....

their ugliness lasts and lasts. I doubt that we will ever be
free of it.

[Carni]

19. BUT I am not sure that means they wouldn't have him back as President

I like Bill Clinton now--but I didn't *like him* as a person for about two years after he was busted with Monica.

Did I approve of the impeachment? Hell no

As a woman was I mad at him for what he pulled on his wife? Yes

But with that said his failings in his marriage didn't make me think any less of him regarding his job then, or now.

[kentuck]

20. I think Bill should pull back out of the limelight and let history...

determine his legacy. The reality is that the Repubs were able to take great advantage of his personal weakness. They impeached him. Although we may think differently here on DU, I think Bill has hurt the Democratic Party nationwide, contrary to what the polls said about him when he left office. I think he hurt AL Gore in 2000. I think that is the reality. I beleive it would be best for him, his legacy, and the Democratic Party if they kept an honest distance at this time. Just my opinion.

[Pepperbelly]

21. so what you're saying is that despite evidence to the contrary ...

you believe otherwise. So when will the evidence of this great harm surface?

Do not even attempt to point to 2K and 04 as results of it because that simply will not hold water for too many reasons to even count, much less elucidate.

On edit, I direct this comment both to the post to which it was attached AND the OP.

[kentuck]

25. Are you using the polls as "evidence"?

I don't think they are accurate. Just my opinion. I think the majority of Americans are very gullible and can be easily persuaded to one argument or the other and they have been persuaded that Bill Clinton was a liar and adulterer and there is nothing worse in the whole world. It did n't have to be plausible, just that they were persuaded. I think that is the reality.

[Pepperbelly]

26. if he could run again ...

he would win and win BIG. I think that is the reality.

[kentuck]

29. I am not so certain...

He never received 50% ... ever...

[Tatiana]

32. At the height of impeachment, Clinton had approval ratings in the 60s

America didn't give a damn about a bj. Most Americans regarded the whole Monica thing as something that was between him and Hillary, not the public.

Al Gore hurt Al Gore's chances in 2000.

[kentuck]

37. And the Democrats in Congress and the Senate didn't take advantage?

Of clinton's approval? Otherwise we would have won back the House and Senate? If they had only approved of Clinton more enthusiastically?

[catmother]

22. monica

yes. adultery is horrible. if my husband cheated on me i would be devastated, but maybe bill and hill have an understanding. i love bill and i think he really and truly loves and cares about people.

[newyawker99]

23. Hi catmother!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[win_in_06]

28. Fooling around is a way of life with most powerful men.

Just a fact. Perhaps the same gene that makes them powerful also makes them horny.

[spooky3]

33. more likely, it just gives them more opportunities

the same guy with no money or power would be far less attractive to the women who would have an affair with him

[spooky3]

34. until we've walked a mile in his/her shoes, I think people

should live their own views and get their own houses in order. Many who condemn him have probably done far worse things, or have never had a comparable opportunity to commit the same "sins."

No, I don't think most people agree that he was great until caught with Lewinsky. I think most people think (a) it's his personal business and (b) it was worse that he lied about it and (c) they don't care much about this issue anymore.

[nsd]

35. It's not really an issue anymore.

The Lewinsky thing may have played a role in the 2000 election, but I think we're done with that now. At this point Bill Clinton is a *former* president. He's never going to be a candidate again and so it's never going to come up again. Notice that it played no part in the 2004 election.

The one (possible) exception to this is if Hillary Clinton runs in 2008. (My prediction: She won't run, but, if she does, she won't be the nominee.) Even in that case, I think Lewinsky will still only be a small factor.

[Ignacio Upton]

36. Talking about Monica is beating a dead horse

after all we have been through I don't think the majority of voters will vote in the next election based on some intern that gave a blowjob to a former President ten years ago.

[bluedawg12]

38. It's only ours if we accept it- I say don't touch it

The issue is an emotional hot button.

Sadly, many men in power abuse it.

During Monica-gate, Sen. Livingston and some other old repug gopher we outed, and Newton Grinning-idiot-I am rich, dumped his wife with breast cancer and married his secretary or something sleazy like that, didn't he?

My answer, if any: it's a sad personal problem with-in a marriage, I hope they have put it behind them.

Kill them with kindness, most decent people would have to agree with that.

[FreedomAngel82]

42. If I was there

I would've said: and that's your business why? And it effected you and the country how? :eyes:

[Borgnine]

45. It's ironic.

Many of the same people who complain that Bill cheated on his wife hate Hillary just as much or greater and deep down must love the turmoil it put her through. Well, those that don't think she's a "lesbian" or whatever Rush and Falwell are claiming this week.

[FreedomAngel82]

46. I also wanted to add

sometimes I wonder about Monica and if she was a neocon plant. Especially when you think about the phone call and the tape where she is talking to that other girl. Oh and I'm not the only one who thinks so too. If you haven't check out Kay Griggs' interview (interesting stuff).

[AX10]

57. Much worse has been done than this.

[bluedawg12]

60. Lewinsky, Tripp and Goldstein - they set him up.

this is a gift that keeps on giving for them- if we bite.

it has no moral validity- it was a personal problem, a personal character defect, and almost smells of entrapment.

it's time the wounded right got over this issue, they pig-hogged the air waves with this for two years, the radicalright assualted my ears with private sexual details by their sordid misuse of subpoena powers to make him testify about an affair--an affair--it's not like outing a CIA agent, or starting a freaking war, or ignorng poor black folk four four days in the sweltering sun,
or using cultural wedge issues to scapegoat Americans, or...aw..heck..you know this goes on and on.

Tell 'em to git over it, pardner.

[tandoori]

85. Not Goldstein, it was Lucy Ann Goldberg.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. They won't

far easer to talk of the clenis than anting else, or admit that hell St Reagan cheated on Nancy and the only President who never did was Carter. Everybody else has... of course I wonder who Dubya gets in bed with and if this is a live boy we may get the hysterical right well to finally give up on George... only thing they care, SEX

[newspeak]

61. I am sick of Clinton's penis!!!!

Yep, it's all about Clinton's penis---I guess the public has one focus, of course, they forget about Eisenhower's, Poppy Bush's, JFK's, and other president's indiscretions. It's all about Clinton!!!! Apparently, it's only news when our glorious "liberal" media says it's news!!! How about alleged insider trading at the tune of $848,529. by Lil Ol Georgie or lying the American people into war or leaving the US unprotected on 9/11 or outing an entire CIA operation or those no-bid Halliburton contracts or leaving our troops ill equipped or bad military food by corporate contractors or leaving people to die in New Orleans or never finding OBL or never finding the anthrax perpetrator or Bush's oil buddies stiffing the American public or those hell raising parties at Bohemian Grove, or 32 Iran-Contra indictments and look where they are or genocide in Iraq or murdering journalists who try to tell the truth...... and it goes on and on--but all we're supposed to care about is Clinton's penis!!!!!

[Bethany Rockafella]

66. That woman that said that is an idiot.

This whole nonsense was between Bill and his wife. After all that crap they are still bonded in matrimony. For better or for worse. Case closed.

[McCamy Taylor]

68. No.

[SunDrop23]

69. Adultery or the death of troops and innocent civilians? Yea, I'd say

those who think adultery is worse have their priorities straight.

Not.

[Andromeda]

74. I think the majority of the nation has moved on....

but there will always be small-minded people in the world who want to keep this issue alive.

[tandoori]

84. Yap, Clinton resigns, Gore becomes president, Gore is INCUMBENT in 2000

Gore gets easily re-elected in 2000, the power of the executive
incumbent president Gore would have protected us from Diebold,
things would have turned out much much much better for democrats.

But Bill Clinton refused to step aside for Gore even after the blue
dress proved his semen was on Monica's dress, and we got screwed.

Like it or not, those are the facts.

[rfkrfk]

88. Clinton resigning, would set a bad precedent.

most people I know don't want the US to become
a sourkraut republic with their seemingly seasonal
changes in national leadeership

[tandoori]

99. It would have been an ORDERLY transfer of presidency to the VP

that is not the same as a "sourkraut" republic where cou's and no
confidence votes cause change of regimes.

Can you refute the fact that Gore becoming president would have
helped both democrats AND the country?

[Adelante]

96. Bullshit

Gore and every single other Democrat should have defended Bill Clinton's RIGHT TO PRIVACY, instead of running away like scared, disloyal, moralizing rabbits.

[tandoori]

100. and Gore did...."Clinton is the best president ever" are his

actual words.

[rfkrfk]

102. Clinton invited everyone into his personal life

you can't say both......

'It's none of your business', and

'I didn't do it'.



By denying, ...now it is a credibility issue.

There are times when it is better to say nothing.

[joeprogressive]

89. I think we are missing the important point

The most powerful man in the world should get blowjobs on demand. It is a good stress reliever and you don't want the man with the finger on the button stressed like that. If Hillary wasn't taking care of business, she is not fit to be president.

On a serious note. It was never about the sex or the lie, It was about the hatred for Clinton by the RW from day one. If they could have busted him for jaywalking, they would have. The whole lying under oath was their way to sell it to the moderate soccer moms.

The RW'ers would never turn on their own for a worse offense. I have heard RW'ers admit that Reagan lied to the American people about his knowledge of Iran/Contra but they said at least he didn't do it under oath. These people can't be reasoned with. The constitution should have said high crimes against the people. That was the true intent and that is what Bush is guilty of on many counts.

Clinton's actions were a stupid thing, but it was a victimless act (outside his family) and had no consequence to the American people.

[Bridget Burke]

90. Monica is haunting all those men who never got...

What she gave Bill. And all those women who fear their own hubbies are getting a little extra.

This is the WORST the VRWC could get against him.

Perhaps you hang out too much in beauty parlors. You've got a pretty small sample there.

[Borgnine]

94. To be fair...

...Republicans aren't the only ones who can't seem to get what Monica gave Bill.

Not that I'm, uh, speaking from (lack of) experience or anything.

[Awsi Dooger]

93. I canvassed last year and was shocked how frequently Monica was mentioned

For a week or so prior to the election I volunteered part time in the afternoon for Kerry. They had me canvass a district near a junior high school. It's a 50/50 area according to the breakdown they gave me.

The most memorable discussions were with three middleaged white working women who didn't particularly like Bush, but they were voting for him because they still couldn't vote Democratic after Clinton's shenanigans with Lewinsky. When it happened the third time I was so stunned I was looking at my chart while she spoke, to make sure I wasn't at the same house talking to a sister. The words and reasoning were almost identical, no smiling or apologizing just matter-of-fact rejection.

I had to conclude it's an underrated problem. White women is where we have lost the most vital support since '96. When I read the header on this thread, I wondered if women would be the focus. Sure enough, TOJ got there in the third line.

[Adelante]

97. I don't agree

When Americans look back on the Clinton-Gore years they see their now disappeared bank balances and not Monica Lewinsky. My sister, who has always voted Republican and utterly despised Bill Clinton, now says if she could wake up tomorrow with one wish it would be to have him back as president. So I asked her, whatever happened to Monica? And my sister says it's about the job he did, not about his personal life. She has to blush when she says it, since this is what I argued at the time, but she does see that now. I can't imagine she's alone.

[gulliver]

101. Clinton dishonored the "First Marriage"

He broke taboo, sullied the institution of marriage itself. It's why we have Bush and everything bad that naturally comes from having such a worthless pipsqueak in the presidency.

Dems lost face because of Clinton. He should have resigned. Kerry should have whipped up on Clinton verbally with humor and anger but with balanced admiration for the great way Clinton ran the office.

A lot of folks are in denial in the Dem party. There still has been no catharsis.