Spoke to a Republican doctor yesterday. Bird flu is being used for fear.

[genius]

Bush's plan for martial law exaggerates the bird flu. The doctor said that it wouldn't be here for a couple of years and by then we would likely have a cure. They already have a vaccine that is ready for testing, and with enough people vaccinated, there won't be any problems.

So, with the martial law talk, we need to look at what Bush is up to. He's placing troops in America - like the NAZIs. Under the Real ID Act, we will be gearing up for National ID cards, like the citizens under Hitler. Under the Real ID Act, death camps are legal.

[LynneSin]

1. Sometimes I think our tinfoil hats are on too tight

but I'm really thinking this Bird Flu crap is just a load of fear factor for the country. We no longer go into a state of panic when terror alerts are made so the Bush Regime needed to find a new way to frighten the masses with a disease not really in existance yet (and not even in our species).

So this time I'm thinking otherwise - that what you posted has true merit. We shall see

[Raster]

28. Fear is what put these bastards into power and fear is the only hope they

have of staying out of prison(s).

And I think we're gonna need more cowbell.

[leesa]

34. Well, they do it every year..think there's a pattern???

[SteppingRazor]

2. "Under the Real ID Act, death camps are legal. "

Huh?

Also, should we really be afraid that there are American troops in America? I mean, haven't there always been?

[wtmusic]

3. American troops are forbidden by Posse Comitatus

to be used for law enforcement. There are efforts to remove that restriction.

[SteppingRazor]

14. I'm aware of Posse Comitatus...

police and police powers is sort of a specialty of mine. Just didn't realize that that is what the OP was getting at with the mention of American troops in America.

As for circumventing the PC Act, it's really already been done. Reagan used the Navy and Air Force to fight the War on Drugs in the 1980s. And troops have been used both in immigration patrols and in tariff enforcement.

Of course, it's an easy step from that to using the military in homeland security.

Still, "death camps?" "Police state?" I wouldn't get too crazy.

[wtmusic]

25. Have any links re: Reagan and the immigration stuff?

That's news to me.

[SteppingRazor]

35. Here's an excellent one complete with footnotes:

http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm

[wtmusic]

37. Good link -- written by a military man who's swallowed the Kool-Aid

and believes that terrorism is different from any other kind of war.

He seems very encouraged about the idea that the military has very few limits for operating domestically, and completely oblivious to the idea that that capability provides fertile ground for abuse.

[SteppingRazor]

39. Which is what makes it a good link...

When looking at ways in which the rightwing will attempt to circumvent posse comitatus, why look at leftwing commentary on the right's ideas when yoou can go straight to the source?

This treatise spells it all out for anyone willing to read it -- what they've done in the past, what they plan to do in the future, and how to justify it given past actions.

[Deep13]

9. I'm sure that's how the Communists justify using the Chinese Army...

...on its own people. It is just a bad, bad idea to use soldiers as police officers. Getting bayonetted by an American hurts just as much as being bayonetted by an enemy soldier.

[genius]

10. Section 102. And we have never used American troops on American people.

Under Bush's plan, they may have to kill their relatives.

[SteppingRazor]

19. The five dead at Kent State would disagree...

But putting the idea that American troops have never killed Americans aside, let's look at Section 102 of the Real ID Act.

It is, admittedly pretty heinous stuff. It allows for the building of large barriers to stem immigration, specifically around San Diego and allows the Attorney General to wave the Endangered Species Act and the Environmental Protection Act in building these barriers.
Not a big deal in and of itself -- I mean, it sucks, but it's certainly not death camps -- but there's also H.R. 418, which allows the Secretary of Homeland Security to "waive any and all laws that he determines necessary, in his sole discretion, to ensure the expeditious construction of barriers and roads" that are required to be built under Section 102.

But again, it's only in regards to these barriers being built. It's not the beginning of a police state and the end of law as we know it.

[wtmusic]

27. PC doesn't apply to National Guard troops

which are under the control of state governors.

[SteppingRazor]

36. I'm well aware of that...

But National Guard troops are still just that -- troops.

Which means that American troops have, in fact, been used against American citizens.

[Deep13]

4. "Under the Real ID Act, death camps are legal."

Oh? :o Death camps? How do you figure?

By "Republican doctor" do you mean he is a party operative, or just that he votes that way? Anyway, based on history, I'd say that denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

[genius]

11. Stop the attack games. Just look at section 102.

[Deep13]

20. Attack, you're it! Sec. 102:

SEC. 102. WAIVER OF LAWS NECESSARY FOR IMPROVEMENT OF BARRIERS AT BORDERS.

Section 102(c) of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (8 U.S.C. 1103 note) is amended to read as follows:

`(c) Waiver-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall have the authority to waive, and shall waive, all laws such Secretary, in such Secretary's sole discretion, determines necessary to ensure expeditious construction of the barriers and roads under this section.

`(2) NO JUDICIAL REVIEW- Notwithstanding any other provision of law (statutory or nonstatutory), no court, administrative agency, or other entity shall have jurisdiction--

`(A) to hear any cause or claim arising from any action undertaken, or any decision made, by the Secretary of Homeland Security pursuant to paragraph (1); or

`(B) to order compensatory, declaratory, injunctive, equitable, or any other relief for damage alleged to arise from any such action or decision.'.


This speaks to suspension of local property rights to construct a wall on the border. It says nothing about anything that could be described as 'death camps.'

[Deep13]

Just checked LEXIS.

There is no mention of this in 8 U.S.C. 1103 which is where the sections directs one to look. I do not believe this in enacted.

[frylock]

5. 65 reported deaths in southeast asia since 2003 due to h5n1..

65 deaths. BFD. More people die every year from the usual strains of influenza. This is a serious load of BS.

[back2basics909]

8. Thats because..

. it is nt transmitted from human to human yet.

[eShirl]

6. medical doctor?

what is his area of expertise?

[genius]

13. Family medical doctor.

This guy keeps up more on epidemics than any doctor I've ever seen. He has documents all over his office about what epidemics are happening where and what their danger is.

[eShirl]

15. thanks, but I'll sooner trust the opinion of an expert in the field

http://www.recombinomics.com/whats_new.html

edit: this is the link I meant to post here: http://www.recombinomics.com/in_the_news.html

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. I don't trust Republican doctors.

Would the Republicans be so clueless if their doctor friends were informed? Too many Repubs didn't believe in ozone depletion before it was too late, or global warming before it was too late, or the bowl effect before it was too late. Who can trust a Republican anything?

[back2basics909]

12. Frist for example..

There seem to be many people on DU that are skeptical of a possible pandemic. Does anybody have a single evidence based reason why?

There are hundreds of the worlds best experts in the field working on this. Isn't dismissing their advice tantamount to dismissing the views of evolutionary experts?

I didn't realize we had so many anti-science progressives.

[genius]

16. Yeh. But this guy's info didn't help Bush. He thought Bush was paranoid.

[back2basics909]

22. An experts opinion..

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2005/avian-flu-1005.html

H5N1 is particularly, swiftly lethal to healthy humans under the age of 35, Garrett noted, for the same reasons the young were most vulnerable to the pandemic virus of 1918: they lack the antibody protection afforded to older humans who have survived earlier viral attacks.

Meanwhile, human-to-human transmission has been confirmed in Thailand and Vietnam, where it has been 55 percent lethal, so far.

In addition, she said, "The human immune system finds this virus so deeply foreign that it goes all out in its response. There's tremendous collateral damage."

“Garrett also warned that medicine to manage any avian flu damage barely exists. Only nine countries in the world have the capacity to produce vaccine, and surely the wealthy nations will serve their own people first.”

So you see the problems are far greater than SARS. Firstly the mortality rate is MUCH higher. Remember SARS had a similar mortality rate to most other respetory illnesses. It was a new kind of virus, which scared many, then the media blew it out of all proportion.

The effect on the immune system is also far greater than SARS. It's estimated than many of the deaths will be from secondary problems, caused by a break down of the immunes system. So it's not a case of getting some drugs and going home. People will require substantial care in hospital, and to be blunt we do not have enough room in our hospitals for everybody. Priorities will have to be set.

H5N1 is also more dangerous to a much larger group of people. Anybody under 35, and the elderly. That’s a far greater amount of people to try and immunize. And we do not know when it will hit. We already have shortages of regular flu jabs, and this will require many more people to be immunized. How many 30 year olds get a flu shot these days?

[Angry Girl]

17. Why are you going to a Republican doctor?

If he voted for Bush, how smart can he be? If he still thinks the GOP is great, how impartial and scientific can he be? Already he's in a profession that uses fear to profit from the ignorant....

[bluedawg12]

18. From new England Journal of Medicine and others>

New England Journal of Medicine

Previous Volume 353:1374-1385 September 29, 2005 Number 13

Avian Influenza A (H5N1) Infection in Humans
The Writing Committee of the World Health Organization (WHO) Consultation on Human Influenza A/H5

“An unprecedented epizootic avian influenza A (H5N1) virus that is highly pathogenic has crossed the species barrier in Asia to cause many human fatalities and poses an increasing pandemic threat. This summary describes the features of human infection with influenza A (H5N1) and reviews recommendations for prevention and clinical management presented in part at the recent World Health Organization (WHO) Meeting on Case Management and Research on Human Influenza A/H5, which was held in Hanoi, May 10 through 12, 2005.1 Because many critical questions remain, modifications of these recommendations are likely...

Conclusions

Infected birds have been the primary source of influenza A (H5N1) infections in humans in Asia. Transmission between humans is very limited at present, but continued monitoring is required to identify any increase in viral adaptation to human hosts. Avian influenza A (H5N1) in humans differs in multiple ways from influenza due to human viruses, including the routes of transmission, clinical severity, pathogenesis, and perhaps, response to treatment. Case detection is confounded by the nonspecificity of initial manifestations of illness, so that detailed contact and travel histories and knowledge of viral activity in poultry are essential. Commercial rapid antigen tests are insensitive, and confirmatory diagnosis requires sophisticated laboratory support. Unlike human influenza, avian influenza A (H5N1) may have higher viral titers in the throat than in the nose, and hence, analysis of throat swabs or lower respiratory samples may offer more sensitive means of diagnosis. Recent human isolates are fully resistant to M2 inhibitors, and increased doses of oral oseltamivir may be warranted for the treatment of severe illness. Despite recent progress, knowledge of the epidemiology, natural history, and management of influenza A (H5N1) disease in humans is incomplete. There is an urgent need for more coordination in clinical and epidemiologic research among institutions in countries with cases of influenza A (H5N1) and internationally. “
...........

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16213784&query_hl=5
.........
J Clin Virol. 2005 Oct 4; Related Articles, Links


Avian influenza A (H5N1).
de Jong MD, Hien TT.
Oxford University Clinical Research Unit, Hospital for Tropical Diseases, 190 Ben Ham Tu, District 5, Ho Chi Minh City, Viet Nam.
Since their reemergence in 2003, highly pathogenic avian influenza A (H5N1) viruses have reached endemic levels among poultry in several southeast Asian countries and have caused a still increasing number of more than 100 reported human infections with high mortality. These developments have ignited global fears of an imminent influenza pandemic. The current knowledge of the virology, clinical spectrum, diagnosis and treatment of human influenza H5N1 virus infections is reviewed herein.
..................
Semin Pediatr Infect Dis. 2005 Oct;16(4):326-35. Related Articles, Links


Avian Influenza Virus H5N1: A Review of Its History and Information Regarding Its Potential to Cause the Next Pandemic.

Ligon BL.

Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas.

Avian influenza virus H5N1, which has been limited to poultry, now has spread to migrating birds and has emerged in mammals and among the human population. It presents a distinct threat of a pandemic for which the World Health Organization and other organizations are making preparations. This article reviews information about the virus itself and its spread among poultry, migrating birds, mammals, and humans

.........

[Digit]

21. I see this as an excuse to re-institute the draft...

At least that was the thought that hit me last night over this martial law talk.

[wiley]

31. Then you can bet they will test it on active duty

and VA hospital patients first. There is no such thing as "informed Consent" in the military. Well, you could get discharged for refusing.

[bluedawg12]

23. Info from WHO

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/influenza/globalagenda/en/index.html

check out the info with in the web site.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

24. On CSPAN - Wingnuts were blaming liberals & media for Bird Flu Scare

This morning on CSPAN, a number of wingnuts called in to claim that the liberals were behind this scare & that the liberal media was promoting it. It is interesting that both sides are blaming each other. To me, this comes from Bush. He read a book about the 1918 Flu epidemic during his last vacation (boy, I wish I had his vacation plan) & he is trying to act busy after the Katrina fiasco.

[wiley]

26. This has Rove ALL over it

Unfortunately, it appears to be working. That seems to be all they are talking about in the burbs. I think we really should not put too much hope in the development of a vaccine in less than 5 years. We should also not assume it will be both safe in 100% of people nor will it be effective.

[WatchWhatISay]

29. Maybe this is just pre-sales buildup for pharmas new vaccine

Seems more likely than anything else to me. Everyone these days is hopping on the "fear sells" bandwagon. It works as well as sex does in selling products to the masses.

[snowbear]

30. How do you know your doc is a Rethug?

Did you see him drive in with a Bush/Cheney sticker on his Lexus?

I know the political affiliation of the orthopedic surgeon who lives next door to me.. but only because I've seen the signs he puts out during elections.

But my own doc.. :shrug: I have no idea. No way he'd discuss politics to his patients.. Does your doc? http://eliteleague.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/duh!.gif

[radfringe]

32. tissue detectors at airports

metal detectors have been adjusted to detect passengers carrying tissues, nyquil, thera-flu and other items used in the treatment of the flu

in other news - police arrested a 84 year old woman for assault on a police officer. She sneezed on him. Her lawyer stated the woman has allergies and not the flu

BREAKING NEWS: HALLIBURTON awarded a no-bid contract to provide face masks.



-----------

Homeland Security issues a Flu Alert code.

"We are not using colors but rather symbols. The symbols range from a smiley face :) indicating there is no threat to a vomiting one :puke: which means there is a high alert."

[Red Knight]

33. My pulminary doctor laughed at it

I have asthma(mild fortunately) and saw my pulminary doctor yesterday. He just moved into a new office and the television in the waiting room was showing "Fox News". On the magazine table I saw "The Wall Stree Journal". I started wondering if my cool doc was a Republican/Neo-Con follower.

I asked him what he thought of all of the bird flu shows on the news and he laughed. "It's been around for years and it was nothing to get worked up about. I think, it's this administration trying to get attention away from the mess in Iraq and all their other messes."

I was stunned.

Not what I expected.

I felt like asking him why Fox was on but didn't want to push it and perhaps he doesn't even monitor that particular minor detail of the business. Heck--anyone could have put it on.

Anyway---he laughed as I was leaving and told me not to eat any chicken.

He is clearly not concerned.

[bluedawg12]

38. The science is legit- the political misuse is not. n/t

[McCamy Taylor]

40. You think? Buy your poultry dead and shrink wrapped and you are ok.