What Part of Roman History Are We Parodying?

[leanin_green]

Why Roman history? Many who believe in the synchronism of cycles and history parodying itself in current events, believe that America is the mirror-image of Rome in modern times. I could go into a long list of why this is so, but the idea has been out there long enough to be general knowledge.

But what is happening in our current phase of national existence that can find its echo in the glory that was Rome?

HBO would say that it is the time of the rise of Caesar. Oh, you can say that's a bunch of huey, but the writing in of similar concepts and scenes that smack of current events is undeniable. The whole period of Caesar's' rise to eminence was arguably the beginning of the demise of the Republic and the institution of authoritarianism where Caesar was "touched" by the gods and the imperial throne was the representative of the gods on earth. Then things got really interesting. Delusion and the birth of the Holy Roman Empire was seeded within the minds of the elite and ruling classes.

Where the Senate used to be the final word for all things to do with the Republic. The Senate became the lap dog of the emperor and useful debate became grounds for treasonous ideas and crimes against the Republic. Sound familiar?

Soon, another rival power sprang up in the east. A power that would threaten the very fabric of the Republic itself. Genghis Khan and the Mongolian hordes. Whereas the threats of that time was based more on life and death issues and the control of land, what is the parody in our times? Land was what marked empires in ancient times. Markets are what constitute empires in our times. What threat from the east now rears its head in our model? You can fill in the blanks yourself. I'm just putting out the idea for us to consider. DU is always a good place for useful debate and dialog. Perhaps the internet and the groups it spawns are becoming the "Peoples' Senate." I open the floor for the flame throwers, thoughtful debaters and the ever present skeptic to assimilate and devour.

[rainy]

1. Have you read Michael Parenti's book on Caesar?

[leanin_green]

7. No, can you share the basic premise, I might go get one.

[roguevalley]

2. the end. there will be huge displacements of population if famine

is a result of environmental upheavals and they will traverse continents. Reminds me of the goths and other populations during the latter years of the republic. This instability and battle of dwindling resources coupled with growing populations is going to drag the world down.

[mzteris]

3. Seven Stages of Civilization

Mixture
Gestation
Expansion
Age of Conflict
Universal Empire
Decay
Invasion


For definitions of stages: http://www.draftymanor.com/bart/h_quigl3.htm

Suffice it to say we're at the end stages of the Universal Empire and beginning stages of Decay.....

[leanin_green]

5. Actually, I think it's the beginning of Universal Empire.

Although, an arguement could be made that that has already happened with world markets. If I stick to my model of markets marking empire, then you could be right.

[mzteris]

8. It's an elastic thing

There is no "line" dividing these things, it's very fluid - advances here, declines there, recouping from that loss, etc...

I suppose you could be right - I guess I was thinking that we went through "peaceful" (such as it was) and prosperous already.

I can't find this definition online, but I have it handy: (I was just to lazy to type the whole thing. :( )

4. CONFLICT: Expansion declines and class tensions increase, borders expand, and there are wars. Atmospher of pessimism prevails. (I can see where you'd get we're still in this mode.....)

5. UNIVERSAL EMPIRE: Civilizations develop a single government powerful enough to appear peaceful and prosperous, but the few in power squander wealth while the majority struggle to make a living.

6. DECAY: Wealth is used up and economic depression sets in. Living standards and literacy decline, conflicts within the society multiply. (SO you can see why I'd think we might be in the beginning stages here....)

7. INVASION: too week to defend seslf; invaders/outsiders take over.

NOW, if you consider that we will probably not fall prey any time soon to what one normally thinks of as an invasion - BUT that "INVASION" - could mean more of an "economic invasion/taker" - I can even see some that happening now.

[leanin_green]

13. Yes, fluid and elastic would be a good way of looking at it, and. . .

like any fluid, it always takes the shape of whatever it is poured into.

So, using the model of markets as the new boundaries of empire let's take another look at these phases.

CONFLICT: After WWII there was an "economic expansion" within our country. But the seeds of conflict were planted within the populace during WWII. Consider the "Rosie the Riveter" phenomenon that was the seed moment of the 'expansion' of the needs of women to contribute more than just in the kitchen and raising children. I believe this is just one of the many types of expansion that was the source of conflict in the '60's and 70's. You had a populace that wanted to expand and grow and a government entity that feared that growth and its inability to control or contain it. I believe the conflict was a direct result of the efforts of the ruling classes trying to stop the rising tide of expansion and growth. There was such an explosion of ideas happening within this country due to technological advancements that connected the world and its citizenry. Borders where shrinking in a symbolical sense.

UNIVERSAL EMPIRE: With the removal of such leaders of this new found expansion of freedom and its potential to unite a world, "Not a Pax Americana" we were told, well, something just had to be done. The assassination of JFKennedy was the beginning point, to me, of UNIVERSAL EMPIRE. The assertion of the ruling classes to maintain control in an ever shrinking world that no longer considered them relevant. The seeds of DECAY were soon planted within the minds of the people with the wounding of their dreams and illusions. Pessimism and apathy began to take hold in increments. The period of DECAY that we are beginning to see take hold are, I believe, a subconscious desire of the collective for this nightmare they no longer want to be a part of to end. They want to awaken.

DECAY: So, in some respects, I believe you are right in that we may be in the DECAY phase of our civilization. But I also believe the UNIVERSAL EMPIRE phase is in its last sub-phase began during the '60's. What fascinates me is the fact that these phases are so much more accelerated now than in times past. What used to take centuries now only seems to take decades. I guess you can only hold that beach ball of natural expansion under the water for so long before it pops up where you least suspect it.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

4. I don't see the parallels in the Romans as much

as in the Greeks.

The miserable state of affairs today roughly resembles the demise of the Athenians following their initiation of the Peloponnesian War. Iraq mirrors their assault on Syracuse: initially succesful, followed by a quagmire that ultimately led to their defeat at the hands of the Spartans and the death of the democratic experiment in Athens.

Read Pericles' Funeral Oration http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/pericles-funeralspeech.html and see if you don't hear the ringing tones of Dear Leader when he claims more soldiers must die in Iraq because other soldiers have already died in Iraq.

Read the Melian Dialogue http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/melian.htm and see if it doesn't remind you of the "Coalition of the Willing."

It was the collapse of Athenian democracy that led to Alexander and, ultimately, to the rise of Rome.

[leanin_green]

6. Many would argue that Rome was merely Greece II.

The Romans adopted their gods, much of their political and social structure and so on. But I will read what you posted. I love this type of stuff!

[Arkana]

11. The Melian dialogue is SCARY when read in context

because if you think about it, that's essentially what we did to Iraq.

[GrpCaptMandrake]

14. It's exactly what we did to Iraq n/t

[leanin_green]

15. This is great stuff. Keep it coming.

[Solon]

9. Look at this link for a "detailed" analysis...

funny too!
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/us_rome.htm

[Arkana]

10. When Commodus came to power after his father, Marcus Aurelius, died.

Bill Clinton symbolized the last of the Five Good Emperors.

[leanin_green]

12. And look at the paralells of Reagan with Domician.

[liberalpragmatist]

16. Well, it wasn't Genghis Khan that did Rome in

The Mongol Horde was MUCH later - 1300s. With Rome it were Germanic "Barbarians" and Goths who began invading Roman territory because they were being displaced by the Huns, led by Attila.

[leanin_green]

18. Thanks for the correction.

[Ioo]

17. If you know the whole story, Nero.

After the fire, he used the burned out area to build a palace. So what will he build in NO

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

19. "find its echo in the glory that was Rome?"...

If you really want to use imperial Rome as a yardstick, I think you are now firmly in the decline and fall. However, imperial Rome did more in it's time (for better and for worse) that the U.S.A. has done so far. But there's still time to beat the record in either dimension. No flames intended.

[leanin_green]

20. None taken. And I agree.