To all the Hillary haters; Boxer's a Republican!!

[BL611]

Lifetime AFL-CIO rating

Hillary Clinton-94%
Barbara Boxer-95%

ACLU rating
Clinton-78%
Boxer-75%

League of conservation voters rating
Clinton-92%
Boxer-92%

Americans For Democratic Action liberal quotient
Clinton-95%
Boxer-95%


Hmmm, by the Clinton is a Republican standard, what is boxer, but I know Clinton voted for the war!!!I suppose Chafee is a liberal dem, right???

[MadisonProgressive]

1. I hope I'm not the only one scratching my head

[Gidney N Cloyd]

6. I think I was following him right up to the voting for the war part.

[BL611]

9. The point being

that all of this is negated because Clinton voted for the war resolution, and that if your only criteria is the war vote Chafee who voted against it would be a liberal dem. Hopefully this clarifies it...

[endarkenment]

12. Chafee is a liberal dem

who happens, due to the peculiar nature of rhode island politics, to be a Republican.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

56. Continuing support for the Iraq War pretty much does negate

those domestic stands. The war consumes so much energy and so many resources that there isn't a whole lot to devote to domestic objectives, and since the war also makes the USA a terrorist target, it leads to further encroachments on our civil liberties and domestic spending at the expense of idiotic militarism. Especially when Biden and Hillary even want to spread the war's flames even further to engulf Syria, not to mention maintaining long-term bases on Iraq. The war in Iraq is *the* central issue because of the way it has of overwhelming everything else.

[second edition]

2. Good for HRC. But, I still hope she doesn't run for President! n/t

[BL611]

4. That wasn't the question

The question was is Boxer a Republican?

[second edition]

18. I bypassed your question because I assumed you point was

that HRC is as liberal as Boxer. it's ridiculous to say either one of them are Republicans. Hillary is whatever it takes to get elected.

[howmad1]

63. Is that any different than any other politician?

[Danger Duck]

3. Right,,,,,,,

Conservation league? This is a conservative group, or an environmental concern?

Bottom line. Hillary plays to win, Boxer speaks to her heart and her mind. Hilary is more concerned with getting the nation to vote for her, whereas Boxer has no such ambition.

[BL611]

5. HAHAHAHAHAHAH

Thank You this is just what I was looking for, so even though they have amassed essentially the same record all of Boxer's votes are pure, while Clinton's are calculated for political gain, and you have what evidence to back this up except for your own telekinetic ability.


Conservation League is an environmental group..

[William769]

13. You bring up a very good point

Get ready fpr the smear campaign. (Iwonder who else does that?)

[Danger Duck]

15. IF this is that funny

I'm sorry. Get a life. I don't know what your scheme is, but both candidates are Democrats, and vote along party lines ninety percent of the time. if you don't perceive a difference in their public conduct, and their varying stances on the policy in Iraq, you're just not that smart, or you're legally deaf and blind. Besides, different votes have varying degrees of importance.

Also, think back to Condi Rice's hearing. Remember Boxer? Remember Boxer's outspoken comments on the war, before and after the shit hit the fan?

I don't know why you're so desperate to prove that Boxer and Clinton are the same person, and willing to use a Limbaugh or O'Reilly tactic to do so; the showcasing of partial and irrelevant statistics in absence of the totality of the circumstances.

Hilary is alright, she is just calculating, which turns people off. I'm glad you like her, but if you want ot convince anyone of anything, you need to build her up, not tear Boxer down.

[BL611]

22. If you think voting records

are "irrelevant" statistics, while C-SPAN tirades are acts of purity, I really don't know what to say...

[Danger Duck]

30. Ok.....

good response. hannity would be proud. Comparing voting records of Senators in the same party and saying that they are almost identical is about as significant as finding sand at the beach.

It where the vote patterns stray that defines the candidate. And to say that Boxer and Clinton are identical because of four stats from four groups is so beyond the pale, well, Fox News would be proud.

[BL611]

34. Saying that composite voting records from

prominent liberal organizations are identical is beyond the pale??? What can I say?

[Danger Duck]

40. You could say

its deceptive to compare two candidates soley on issues they agree on. Which is what you did. But to each their own. I think that your argument is weak and does a disservice to Hilary.

[BL611]

42. The ADA

is not a single issue organization, I don't know how you figure it to be deceptive, I took those groups because they are the major organizations that came to my head. It you want foreign policy Peace Now gave Hillary a 75% the year of the war, while Boxer got 100% if that makes Boxer wonderful, while making Hillary a Republican lite, again you prove my point...

[Danger Duck]

44. Let's take it down a notch.

Don't get me wrong. I like Hilary, and I'll vote for her if she is the candidate. I think people that call her a Republican are reactionary, and not really worth addressing.

But, there message is relevant. Hilary doesn't act like Pelosi, or Boxer, or Dean. That's why she may be the next President. It's a calculation.

Some purists will protest, but ultimately, everyone will vote for her on DU. Why worry?

But to argue that there is no difference between her and Boxer, or that they are both "Republican" because they vote alike, is a intellectually dishonest.

Of course, subtlety and ironic sarcasm doesn't always translate well in black letter mediums, so if I'm way off on my interpretation of what you were trying to say, I apologize. Any-hooo, I need to do some work today, so I'm going to get going. Have a good one.

[AlGore-08.com]

66. Actually, it's called cherry-picking your facts

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=cherry-pick

Main Entry: cherry-pick
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: to choose the best items from a selection for oneself, often in an unfair manner
Usage: derogatory

[Goldeneye]

7. Don't try to change their minds.

Someone of them are just too far gone. I actually had to argue with someone that Hillary isn't a neocon. A f#@!*ing neocon! Can you believe that crap?

[BL611]

11. Yes

unfortunately I can, buts its alright because Boxer is also a neocon!!!!

[Goldeneye]

33. ...

:-)

[Danger Duck]

25. Hilary is a candidate

always has been. She's for sale, and attuned to whatever deity is bought or sold by her supporters that week. She plays the middle, and seems less concerned with ideology then remaining in power, thus concessions are made in Public that her supporters hope are denounced in private.

Really, Bill Clinton set the Neocon model. He is, to say the least, someone that any politician would want to emulate. He just happened to be on our side. Michael Moore wrote a chapter about Bill calling him a "great republican President".

In the middle lies power, and mediocrity. I miss the Clinton Years, but I don't miss the Clinton Whitehouse. Minus a dot com boom, it was just business as usual. I think Hilary Clinton will aspire to bring that lazy plateau and consensus BS back, getting rid of "violent" video games and "dirty movies", failing to nationalize health care, and creating a further rift in our country. Give me Gore, give me Dean, or someone that isn't afraid to speak and lead.

[Goldeneye]

31. I don't care about any of that.

Well, I do, but that's not what I was talking about. I want a radical change in direction for this country, and I don't see that happening with Hillary. But anyone who says she is a neocon just talking out of their ass. As far as her ideology changing...I don't really see that. I see that she typically votes and acts in a way that is consistent with her past.

[Tom Joad]

8. That is not the question. Does Hillary support sending more troops

to this insane, immoral, imperialistic war?

It is not a question of Hillary being a closet republican.

The question is, is she a supporter of the war?

Yes, she is. A hypocrite at that. I don't see Chelsea signing up.

[Danger Duck]

35. Not to be a contrarian

but lets end the argument that if you support the war, your children should fight it. The whole point of the Army is that it is a volonteer army, and the whole point of the United States is that you should be free to live your life. What the hell does it mean when someone is attacked for not "signing" their children up? You can't sign your children up, nor can you force them to fight.

[Tom Joad]

50. You have a point...

It probably is irrelvant about what Chelsea is doing right now. I hope she is doing well. For that matter, i hope the Bush twins well, also (just as long as they don't run for office!)

Still the tragedy is that other people will be fighting this war, Iraqis will be dying, and it is a tragic waste. A crime.

[Danger Duck]

52. Yeah

Besides, I can think of much better uses for the Bush twins. For example, I have a piece of string they could play with. And loads of shiny objects they could bring home to Daddy.

[endarkenment]

10. Clinton isn't a republican she is DLC 'new Democrat'

None of your ratings test for 'free market fundamentalism' or 'neocon imperialism'. Nor does Hillary have much of a voting track record - which is what most of these ratings go by - as she has held exactly one public office, senator, and that for a single term. Boxer has been in the senate since '92.

[BL611]

17. Free market Fundamentalism???

Funny I would think the AFL-CIO would be against that kind of thing...

So I suppose in your second term you become far more conservative right? And if you believe so, is your argument that Hillary is a "new Democrat" (as opposed to Boxer), because of what she will do in her next term??

[endarkenment]

20. Yes free market fundamentalism

So the only vote she took on that was I believe CAFTA and you can read her own words here: http://www.senate.gov/~clinton/news/statements/details.cfm?id=240183&&

She voted against it 'with great difficulty'. You go figure out what the difficulty was. I figure she needed to keep her AFL-CIO rating up. Her heart is clearly in the other direction and yes she and the rest of the New Democrats are Free Trade Fundamentalists, as was her husband when he was president.

[BL611]

27. Yes this is the point

she can't win with you she votes the right way 95% of the time and she's just politically calculating, but when Boxer does it, its for principal, as I asked someone else;how do you figure?

[BL611]

28. Yes this is the point

she can't win with you she votes the right way 95% of the time and she's just politically calculating, but when Boxer does it, its for principal, as I asked someone else;how do you figure?

[endarkenment]

36. By some measure she votes right 95% of the time.

She continues to support the war. At this point, with all that has transpired, that issue alone prevents my supporting her candidacy IN THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARIES. I will vote for somebody else. If Hilary wins the nomination I will support her as our nominee. I've said so before and I'll say it again now. So stop putting words in our mouths and telling us what we think.

[BL611]

39. Your the one

that said she supports "free market fundamentalism", don't say I putting words in your mouth your comments are there for everyone to read, you don't want to support her in the primaries, fine! I never said you had to (or even should for that matter),now who's the one putting words in whose mouth?

[bluedawg12]

48. DLC democrats are more than their liberal social posture

they may be socially liberal, in the same way that neocons are socially conservative, but that just means that neocons and neoliberals get to straddle both sides of the fence.

It's their vision of the world, our role in the middle east, their anti-unin position, and thier love of globalization and the free market scam that has screwed the American worker.

Both are elitist and share the same vision for American global hedgemony.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=86&subid=194&contentid=1926

DLC | Key Document | August 1, 2000
The Hyde Park Declaration: A Statement of Principles and a Policy Agenda for the 21st Century

A rapidly changing global environment in which American values and interests are predominant, but in which we face a new series of international challenges based not on a monolithic threat from another superpower, but on regional instability, economic rivalries, ethnic conflicts, rogue states, and terrorism.

[MoJoWorkin]

14. Hillary has cozied up to the Bushes--That tore it with me

Also, she is a DLC'er. Sorry, I can't go that, either. She STILL will not accept the war as wrong. I am a lifelong Dem(started out at 15, walking door to door for JFK) who is tired of this middle-of-the-road be nice to the Repugs business. Give the Repugs the business--Boxer style. I DON'T WANT HILLARY, period!!!

[jonnyblitz]

16. this proves what a political animal she is...she is giving the

illusion she is a centrist but really isn't . SHE IS DISHONEST about her leanings and A-MORAL all for political gain!

how was that? :P

seriously, for me, it's all about the war. I will no longer call her Lieberman in drag, though, I promise. I will admit I was wrong in exaggerating her rightwinged-ness, too, if these polls are the be-all and end-all in determining who is a liberal and who isn't. :shrug:

[Township75]

19. In light of this, I see no reason to run Clinton instead of Boxer

after all, they have the same record, and Boxer has been fighting the battle in the senate longer, plus she actually made an attempt to do something about election fraud (did Clinton do anything other than lip service?).

Let's join together and support Boxer in 08!!

[endarkenment]

21. Good point!

So all the DLC/New Demopublican types can rally 'round the Boxer presidency.

[BL611]

23. Thats fine

If Boxer wins the primary I'll be happy to support her, although she does not have the money or name recognition that Clinton does, and therefore IMO would be a weaker candidate. It's funny how people are so rabid they take a Clinton/Boxer comparison to be a slam on Boxer!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

24. Well said. n/t

[One_of_8]

29. Now that's a ticket I could support

without reservation!

I don't hate HRC, but I also don't want her to run for President in '08. She'll rally the Repubs against her, and divide the Democratic vote. Unfortunately for HRC, she's a divider within her own party. Let's pick someone who's not guaranteed to unify the wingers, and who will hopefully entice some of the "moderate" Republicans to cast a vote for a Democrat for president.

[joeprogressive]

26. This type of post and comments to follow are exactly why

we can not nominate Hillary. She is very divisive to our own party. The vast majority can't stand her here. We have them on the ropes, giving them Hillary lets them get away. By the way, the Iraq vote means everything; ask Kerry.

[BL611]

32. Our own party is divisive of our own party

These were the same comments that people said about Kerry when he was the nominee. The same as the comments about Gore, and etc, etc. These people are only concerned about hearing a candidate placate THEM, they divide the party because if a candidate says something they don't like to appeal to someone who isn't THEM, they call them a Republican, or a whore, or whatever makes them feel good. Their just like Republicans in their narrow mindedness and selfishness they just manifest it differently...

[endarkenment]

37. Oh bullshit.

I worked my ass off for kerry and kept my mouth shut about his stupid stance on the war until he got the election stolen from him in Ohio. Then, after the fucking criminal bush got himself 're-elected' I did speak out about just what a sorry campaign kerry ran and what a mixed up stupid foolish and incomprehensible position he had and has on the criminal war we waged against the people of Iraq.

[joeprogressive]

38. No it is you that is selfish just like the greens

Let go of your candidate for the good of the country. I don't know how I can say this any differently. Hillary can't win. I have placed my entire future on the '08 elections.

I have already put a plan in motion where my family is leaving the country if a repuke wins again. If a repuke wins because Hillary was nominated it will be your fault just like it was greens fault in 2000. Throw out all the tidbits about diebold, stolen florida elections etc. While it all may be true it is indisputable that if greens supported Gore in 2000 he easily wins Florida. You will be relegated to their status as spoiler.

[BL611]

41. When did I ever say I wouldn't support

another candidate? I'm not even sure I'm going to support Hillary yet in the primaries (although I'm leaning toward it) and that wasn't the point of the post, it was about all the vile against Hillary whether she's your candidate or not. If Hillary's not your first choice, fine whatever, say I disagree with her Iraq vote and would prefer someone who voted against the resolution, don't go around calling her a Republican or all the other ridiculous hyperbole thats spilled around here. If you want to give up on this country, go ahead I'll help you pack your bags..

[joeprogressive]

43. talk about sounding like a Republican

They are always the first ones to offer to help pack your bags for you. Life is too short and my son too precious to me to waste it in this country when there are several progressive alternatives out there.

What you don't understand is I am not one to call her repub lite or to say I hate her. I actually rather like her, but she can't win period. This is not the time to be screwing around with experiments. Clark, Gore, Edwards, and so on are better alternatives.

To know that Gore that a few hundred votes in Florida essentially set our country back a decade breaks my heart. If Hillary wins nomination I will vote for her but when she loses, and she will lose, I am leaving the party and the country. It is that simple. No regrets. And no I don't need your help to pack my bags, but thanks for the offer.

[BL611]

45. I happen to think

this country is too precious to abandon it because I don't like whats going on at the moment, if you think that makes me sound like a Republican, don't sit around wondering why the Democrats lose...

[joeprogressive]

54. The difference is I respect your decision to stay

By offering to pack my bags, you are just being mean. Therefore republican like. You have no idea how this administration has hurt my family and my career. By choosing to leave, I don't feel like I will be abondoning my country, my country abondoned me a long time ago. This is not why republicans win. Republicans win because they play the game smarter and dirtier. Running Hillary is just plain dumb.

[bluedawg12]

51. Well, Hill and the DLC and PNAC agree on Iraq.

But, speaking of undermining- how did the DLC treat Howard dean and support his anti-war sentimnets?

By singing the PNAC letter to President Bush?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council

>Marshall Wittmann, a senior fellow at the DLC and the former legislative director for the Christian Coalition, and Will Marshall, a cosigner of a letter issued by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) endorsing not only the 2003 Invasion of Iraq, but also a foreign policy that has much in common with the neoconservative world-view.<

"If you want to give up on this country, go ahead I'll help you pack your bags.." - BL611

what is that? the neoliberal version of America love it or leave it?

[zann725]

46. Could've fooled me?! Everyone who's worked Boxer's campaigns,

(and she IS my Senator)...every floor speech she's ever given (including the one where she was the ONLY Senator to stand with the Congress on questioning Ohio Electoral Vote Fraud). A day on which Clinton hem-haw'd a lot, but like Obama was clearly middle-of-the-road.

Of the two, Boxer is clearly more passionate (actually believes) the causes she argues for...as opposed to Clinton who at best 'talks the talk.'

ACLU, indeed???

[Mass]

47. Lifetime rating - That is 4 years for Clinton, at least 15 for Boxer

25 including her period as representative.

Comparing records on so different periods is meaningless. (For example Boxer voted for DOMA. What do you think Hillary Clinton would have done?)

Do you have Boxer ratings since 2001? These may be comparable numbers.

[BL611]

49. Both have numbers

that are fairly consistent throughout, both had 100% AFL-CIO ratings last year, and 95's from the ADA...

[GRLMGC]

53. I don't support Hillary

but I also reject that she's a neocon like she's made out to be here sometimes. I heart Boxer though. She's my good Senator

[IndianaGreen]

55. Hillary voted for the war, and continues to support the war and torture

If you want a personnel change at the White House, vote for Hillary, the Lucretia Borgia of the Democratic Party.

If you want a policy change at the White House, vote for someone other than Hillary, Biden, Bayh, Lieberman, or the GOP.

[AJH032]

57. Thank you BL611

Thank you for posting this, it just confirms the fact that Hillary Clinton is NOT a DINO. Just because I disagree with her position on the Iraq war doesn't make her a Republican. The Hillary haters will continue to spin GOP-style, but that's to be expected.

[IndianaGreen]

58. Hillary is not a Republican but she is a war crimes enabler

and as such she will be rejected by millions of voters were she to run for President.

[zann725]

67. At best, she's a "Remocrat." At best...

n/t

[karynnj]

59. I may be wrong, but the "life" does not have the same meaning for both

Hillary has been in office since Jan 2001, I thing Boxer was there long before that. These ratings are therefore apples and oranges. (A fair measure would by their % over a fixed time frame common to both.

If you look at the list, many newer Senators score more liberal than you expect them too. This may reflect the fact that in earlier times when the Democrats controlled the Senate, the legislation was more liberal.

[Clarkie1]

60. It's sad Hillary cares more about herself than her party and her country.

America and the Democratic Party need a uniter, not a divider...and Hillary herself is smart enough to know that she is carries too much partisan baggage to bring more people into the Democratic fold. Yet sadly, she doesn't seem to care.

The truth is Hillary can serve America and the Democratic Party best by stepping aside; America is not an oligarchy; I look forward to the day Americans elect a woman based on her own achievements, not her husband's. That day will come, but not with Hillary.

If you want to cripple the Democratic Party for the sake of voting for a woman and the Clinton namesake, then go ahead and nominate Hillary. If you want to win back the White House and bring more people into the Party without compromising our values, then look elsewhere.

[Dave Reynolds]

61. .

[leesa]

62. Whatever. Try opening the eyes.

[howmad1]

64. Hillary Clinton = Yada, Yada, Yada, yada.

Good grief, will you people get a life! I strongly recommend you Hillary haters go to the website of the republican candidate for NY Senate, donate some money, and get rid of Hillary once and for all. Then you can all piss and moan about how this one party system is destroying democracy.

[SaveElmer]

65. No you didn't...no you didn't...you have alot of nerve giving us FACTS...

When it comes to Hillary...c'mon it's alot easier to think of her as a right wing neocon corporatist, torture loving, sweat shop supporting baby killer!!!

We cannot have facts disturb our carefully crafted fantasies!!!

Jeez...get with the program will ya!!!

[mmonk]

68. No

illegal war promoters. I don't care how "liberal" she is.