The Dems will always support this war no matter how bad it gets

[Roon]

This isn't a war about terrorism, this is about oil.What we are witnessing is a global struggle for resources.China has changed, now we have a billion of them who want to dry SUVs too! The same goes for India.If we want to maintain our current lifestyle we had no choice but to secure oil of our own.The terrorism thing is just an excuse. The dems totally understand the consequences if we don't get this oil!

So we can protest and raise hell all we want, the war will go on as planned and there is nothing we can do about it.

[emulatorloo]

1. So as Fitz is about to reveal the "Big Lie" and how it was put together

you want to have a thread about how the Dems are responsible for the Bush's Iraq War?

[papau]

6. It does seem both stupid and a lie - but Dem's chasing oil made Bush

go to war works on some level, I guess.

"Patriots are we" also works

But I like "there is a GOP mess to fix" that leaving tomorrow - rather than a year from tomorrow at 50% of troop number as today, and in 2 years we are out - that might have some justification, eh?

[Roon]

7. Well, from what I understand

Fitz isn't going to reveal this "Big Lie" or anything close to it.
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Fitzgerald_has_decided_to_seek_indictments_1025.html

[emulatorloo]

11. The Genie is out of the bottle - even NBC is reporting re Niger forgeries

and linking them to Chalabi, and of course linking Chalabi back to admin.

BTW rawstory you sited also notes "The sources said, however, they wouldn't rule out charges of conspiracy."

[Roon]

13. Where did you see this NBC report? eom

[emulatorloo]

16. give me a sec I'll go find a link. . .

[emulatorloo]

18. ok here it is:

http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/schustercialeakinvestigationoct2105.wmv

Thanks to the can of fun person. . .main page at http://www.canofun.com/blog if my other link doesn't work . . . .look for "CIA Leak Investigation-Schuster Oct 21 05"

[Roon]

21. Thanks! eom

[JanusAscending]

17. Don't believe everything you read!

I don't believe a thing you wrote in your post either! I prefer to hear it from the "horses mouth" rather than the opposite end.

[electropop]

2. Fortunately this war for oil is a huge success.

:sarcasm:

It's actually a war against oil. The Bushites have succeeded in raising the value (i.e. cost to us) of the vast US oil reserves they all hold. ALl they had to do was shut down their biggest competitor (not counting Saudi Arabia, where half of the Bush-Laden family lives).

[whirlygigspin]

3. well isn't that special

n/t

[Larkspur]

4. Continuing to decrease the number of recruits into the military is one way

to challenge this war policy. We are at the lowest recruiting levels in 26 years. I don't see a pro-war Dem improving those levels.

If we refuse to go to war to fight, the pols will either have to commit political suicide and restore the Draft, continue bankrupting the Treasury by hiring mercenaries, or finding alternatives to war.

[LiberalEsto]

5. It's a war over control of resources

and the profits from them.

There are several possible alternative approaches to fighting wars for control of oil:

Find and develop new energy sources
Globalize all energy resources under UN control
Reduce energy consumption
Destroy all oil and gas resources (which would be an insane thing to do because of all the CO2 that would flood the atmosphere)

[KoKo]

8. The war has made getting the oil harder. We are presiding over civil

war. Halliburton maybe extracting "unmetered oil" but the pipeline keeps getting blown up and they must be paying a premium to get workers over their to supervise given the threats to their lives. Iraqi's don't want us there and have been throwing us Christian Imperialists and Crusaders out for thousands and thousands of years. We always think that our military is superior...but it never is when one's own land is invaded and occupied.

When the last of big oil companies and Halliburton wake up...the tide will turn. (the oil companies may be more involved in Scowcroft and others revelations than their OWN sense of "honor" for which I believe they have little.)

I think some of the Dem War Hawks will come forward and change their tune when the last oil man tells them to. When it's safe.

[Roon]

12. They miscalculated

Remember? They were suppose to shower us with flowers and candy and dance in the streets and the administration deluded themselves into thinking that is what would happen.

<When the last of big oil companies and Halliburton wake up...the tide will turn. (the oil companies may be more involved in Scowcroft and others revelations than their OWN sense of "honor" for which I believe they have little.)>

I don't think this will ever happen, there is too much at stake.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. The Dems I support will

1. NOT support the war
2. Work to get viable alternative energy options up and running.

Remember when Kennedy said we'd have a man on the moon by 1969? We need a modern Dem telling us that we'll be energy independent by a specific date(to use as a goal). Exploring alternative fuels and energy sources should be the main focus of our government.

[Roon]

15. I totally agree eom

[IndianaGreen]

20. My Democratic Congresswoman has been most excellent

It's the Beltway Democrats that I am having trouble with.

[politicaholic]

10. Sure, now that the war is here...

but everyone understood that having a rogue nutcase in charge of the 3rd largest oil supply was a very bad idea and a volitile situation.

How the administration went about it was vastly different from what the Dems would have done. The way that they Dems WERE dealing with it (oil for food) and the way the repubs ARE dealing with it (illegal war) looks like are BOTH turning out to be scandalous.

Who's calling for the weening off of gas? Demonized Liberals, a group of whom I am proud to be a part of.

[IndianaGreen]

14. Democrats also supported segregation!

I am old enough to remember how terrified Democrats were of offending their fellow Democrats from the South. I know from history that great humanists like Eleanor Roosevelt wanted FDR to oppose segregation and he wouldn't do it.

[WI_DEM]

19. You say "The Dems" but there are alot of anti-war Democrats

in congress too, so let's not use blanket statements for everyone.

[welshTerrier2]

22. voters: the missing piece

imperialism has been a cornerstone of American foreign policy for more than a hundred years ... while Iraq is on everyone's radar today, Chavez in Venezuela has made accusations that CIA trained operatives are in his country trying to assassinate him ... we used to justify things like this by claiming these "bad guys" were Communists ... but the "ists" gave up so we needed some new "ists" ... now we have terrorists ... of course with Chavez, they still point to his ties with Communist Cuba ... does it seem likely Fidel will be able to spread Communism across the globe? it's total nonsense ...

in our good names our government has gone around the world like a big bully ... we talk a lot about "free market" capitalism as if there is some set of rules we play by (beyond the law of the jungle); that's nonsense too ... we assassinate; we destabilize; we distort election results; we bankrupt and blackmail ...

and sitting behind this immorality is NOT only some misguided sense of nationalism and oil procurement; it's also incredible, unconscionable profits for the greedy shareholders of Big Oil ... each day Iraq remains unstable, Big Oil has realized record profits ... all time records ... so it's important to broaden the theme of the OP to understand that those being served by American imperialism are by no means just the American people ...

and perhaps the most important point here is that if Democrats are supporting American imperialism to procure (i.e. steal) oil from weaker nations, they are doing so without the informed consent of the American people ... how we would vote on this issue as a nation remains to be seen ...

so, while i, for one, would rather have no gas for my car and have my house go cold than endorse such global barbarism, the Democrats, if this is indeed their reason for supporting the insanity in Iraq, have failed to honor our democracy ... Democrats should not see themselves as daddies keeping the bad news from the children ... if they are condoning this imperialistic immorality, they have an obligation to present the issue to the American people for their approval or disapproval ...

until Democrats "deliver the bad news" about the urgent crisis we face because of our dependence on oil, they will not have an adequately strong justification for their calls for alternative energy sources ... they seem so afraid of the "shoot the messenger" syndrome that they're afraid to tell the truth and afraid to lead ... this fear is self-paralyzing ... Democrats need to make the case against oil ... they need to talk more about the urgency of global warming ... they need to talk about the coming "oil wars" as readily available supplies dwindle ... they need to talk about the emergence of huge economies like India and China and the risks they pose to the US in terms of oil demand ... and more positively, they need to talk about saving our economy that is so heavily dependent on oil by planting the seeds for a new industry that could literally save life on the planet while it rebuilds the US economy ...

just at a time the Democratic Party should seize the opportunity to involve the American people, they have chosen to play questionable political games ... that's not leadership and that's not going to return the Democratic Party to majority status ... bold leadership, honesty with the American people, and the courage to push for the right policies are the only path back to power ...

[Roon]

25. Great post!

Thanks

[ArkDem]

23. I never dry mine. I just let the water evaporate.

[Leftest]

24. Corporate States Of America

"So we can protest and raise hell all we want, the war will go on as planned and there is nothing we can do about it."

Ahhh but there is something we can do about it. But first allow me to say that I agree with your observation that we can protest all we want and it ain't going to make enough difference to change the FACT that this war on terror, which is really not about terrorism at all but rather about seizing (I mean securing) energy resources, isn't going end until they (the corporations) have taken control of all the oil.

So what do I think it will take? Well.......I've always believed that money talks and bullshit walks. So what we have to do is speak in a language that they understand. And the only two languages that I know they understand - is violence & greed. Since of course we're not about to commit acts of violence against our government, therefore we have to address their language of greed.

Money & power is the name of the game here. No money........no power. Since we don't really live in a democracy but rather a plutocracy, all power is predicated upon money. And there is our key. Because (of course as you all know) since money is nothing more than an exchange medium representing "goods" & "services". WE THE PEOPLE, the ones who perform the labor creating all the goods & services, ultimately (if we all organize together) can take back control of the power. And the way we do that is through mass organization, nation wide, to all walk off the job in solidarity for a national general strike. But before this is done, a resolution drafted from us will be necessary to both define the conditions necessary for us to return to our jobs -and- to grant immunity for all against the employers from taking any action(s) against those who participated.


Until radical measures such as this are taken, nothing is going to change. And I might add. Even though this sounds like a radical idea; if you really stop and think about it, its something that CAN be done - especially in this age of the internet and the organizing power of the blogs.



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