If there are indictments, we could be in even deeper shit than we are now

[Stinky The Clown]

Idiot son has made a career of loyalty. Or so it would seem. In fact, it could well be (probably is) that he is not a trustful person. Look at who is there with him. Every one of the inner circle has been associated with him for years - decades, even. Look at his appointments. Look at his staff. Look at his friends. Every one of them from the same group.

And in that group is a similar style, a similar loyalty to the boy. A similar ideology. Indeed, it is just as likely that he adopted their ideology, rather than they sharing his. Little George is not a deep man.

So now we see his group being torn asunder. Indeed, just this morning, as he dumps Miers' nomination, Chris Matthews (a whack job in some respects, but generally right on the 'inside baseball' stuff) pointed out that the nomination was the product of a new team of advisers, not the old guard, who are all distracted elsewhere. In fact, Matthews said he heard the main adviser on the Miers nomination was Laura, of all people. This is likely true, given McLellan's statement when the nomination was announced, that even Cheney was out of the loop on the decision.

So what does all this portend? Why might we be in deeper shit than we are now?

Because Little Boots, our dear latter day Caligula, is without the internal compass to lead the country anywhere. Not to the right. Not to the left. Not to anywhere. Idiot son needs handlers and tacticians. Idiot son needs advisers. He can't decide to go to the toilet without asking for help.

But he'll now need new advisers. And he'll pick them. But he won't trust them. He won't allow their counsel to be meaningful. There will be open rifts in White House policy and management. The country will be rudderless.

Can we survive three years of rudderless governance?

The constitutional crisis in front of us today - before the indictments - is not a need to impeach so much as to recall. We simply cannot have an incompetent leader who is surrounded by ineffective advisers.

Reagan was much the same way, but his closest advisers survived to keep things under wraps. Little Boots has no such competent advisers.

The next Supreme nomination will be telling. If it is a Washington insider, like, say, Ted Olsen, then lay in a supply of canned goods and bottled water. Bush will be out of business. That kind of decision (nomination) would indicate that George has allowed his untrusted and (to him) untested advisers do the deciding.

And we will be rudderless. And drifting into the perilous Sea of Deep Shit.

[Cactus44]

1. Rudderless beats deliberatly sailing towards the rocks.

Bush will probably become a figurehead if there are numerous resignations and congress will really be driving the agenda at that point. He'll be the lamest of all lame ducks.

[hippiechick]

8. He's been a figurehead since he took office !

:wow:

[Stinky The Clown]

13. True enough ..... but still the ship had a captain

These days, the figurehead will be forced to steer ... and he has NO idea how to do that.

[Patiod]

30. To repeat the joke...

Blaming Bush for anything is like blaming the San Diego Chicken when the Padres lose.

He's just a big, fuzzy mascot.

/SNL

[unpossibles]

34. HAHAHA...BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

thank you

[Jack from Charlotte]

23. No question about that. I can't believe anyone would try to advance.....

the argument the we should fear being rudderless compared to the previous 4 1/2 years of this AWOL/Morons ruddering.

[bowens43]

2. Much better to be rudderless

then to maintain the course.

[More Than A Feeling]

3. With rudderless, we might accidentally do the right thing

it's better than an actively evil government, and sets the stage for Democrats to save the day in '06 and '08.

[Kagemusha]

4. I recall this was a key argument against having a President Gore.

And I remember it because I myself feared that result at the time. The problem is lemmings-towards-a-cliff leadership vs. rudderless leadership.

It's too bad we have those options (I refuse to call them "choices") but that's the breaks.

[expatriot]

5. I'd take my chances being rudderless over have Charon my oarsman. nt

[Patiod]

28. oooo....nice classical reference there

the only reason I, with my public school and public college education caught it is that my S.O. tried out to play Charon in a Tom Stoppard's "Invention of Love".

[livetohike]

6. Nominated and I agree

The next three plus years will be hell one way or the other.

[Inland]

7. Completely random action may be best we can hope for. nt

[OneForLuck]

9. I can't say that I look forward to

a rudderless administration. As we've all seen in the past, George has a temperament that doesn't allow him to listen to opposing views... unless they come from someone who he trusts. If his closest advisers are embroiled in their own indictments that truly does leave Georgie all on his own. The extent that Dick is involved in Plamegate also takes his voice out of the mix (not that I necessarily think that is a bad thing). But what I do think is George on his own is VERY VERY dangerous for this country. Look at everything he's screwed up with advisors... I fear the time when he has to start making decisions for himself.

[newyawker99]

12. Hi OneForLuck!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[prescole]

10. Solid analysis. Spot on. Can newbies second a nomination?

'Scuse me, I gotta pee. Condi, can I go pee?

[Stinky The Clown]

14. Yes, you can

but only after you go pee. :hi:

[calimary]

42. Welcome, prescole and OneForLuck!

Damn glad you're here!

We need you guys - as we...

Visualize IMPEACHMENT!!!!!!!

Honest-to-God, let's GET RID of these bastards!!!

BTW, prescole, not sure if you have enough of a post count to be able to nominate things, but you can always find out by trying it. If it lets ya, then you have your answer. And I hope it lets ya.

:hi:

[BeFree]

11. In the Sea of Deep Shit Already

Steered there by a foolish commander and his lackeys. Now that his lackeys are fighting amongst themselves with the steering wheel as the center of their competing desires, we no longer are we staying the course.

Good. Let's be rudderless and may the winds of anti-war, and the hurricanes, blow us out of the Sea of Deep Shit into a tranquil sea. Tranquil would be nice, eh? Haven't seen tranquil since Clinton was steering the boat.

[Wordie]

15. Wow...you articulated much of what has been worrying me. Recommended.

Will Daddy have to send in the adult team, I wonder? (Which wouldn't be much better, but at least we would have someone at the till.)

Scarier still, though, is an angry boy-prince all alone at the helm trying to PROVE that he can govern. Watch out.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. That would be pouring gasoline on an already raging conflagration

Poppy and dumb son are not the best of friends. There's a whole level of familial dysfunction there that we can only guess. When he went into Baghdad, it was as much to outdo Daddy as any other reason. When he 'won' a second term, he outdid Daddy. He was able to gloat at the old man. For the old man to once again bail him out would be more than his fragile ego could bear.

And in the face of all that, we the people will pay what comes due.

Worst president in history only tells the barest minimum of the whole story.

In the vernacular, Georgie is one fucked up dude.

[grace0418]

16. Hell, I'll get in and row myself if it would help.

In other words, hell yes, it's better to be rudderless than to be heading straight for the rocks.

[AntiFascist]

17. Since most Americans feel we have been headed in the wrong direction....

since when did the admin ever have a rudder? I think its been full speed ahead wherever the currents happen to take them.

[alcibiades_mystery]

18. I think we can take the chance

:eyes:

[Pacifist Patriot]

19. I think it's very safe to say that he is NOT a trusting person.

Your concerns are valid. I'm wondering if he would have a complete breakdown if his support system were suddenly pulled out from under him. I don't think he could psychologically, emotionally or physically handle it.

[bobbieinok]

29. there are still Karen Hughes and Rice......but if Hadley goes, doesn't tha

that pull in Rice

Hadley was asst NSC to Rice and is now himself NSC director

[Alpharetta]

20. Oh just wait till he makes his minister his Chief of Staff

[meganmonkey]

21. Well, the more deep-shitty it is, the less likely we will have to endure 3

years, because 2006 could be a great year for Dems, if it goes down as you theorize.

And if 2006 IS a great year for the Dems, then impeachment is more of a possiblility. So maybe it'll only be a year and a half or so instead of three.

:shrug:

[Nightjock]

22. Ted Olsen

For those of you, like me, that are not sure who Ted Olsen is:

I "googled" him. Now that would be scary Husb2!

Snip<

In 1988, when President Reagan left office, Theodore Olson became his personal attorney and represented him in matters relating to the Iran Contra scandal. Olson monitored Reagan's testimony throughout the investigations and hearings, a central and indispensable figure during the examination of the extra-Constitutional power grab effected by conservative Republicans.

Shortly after President Clinton took office in 1993, a loose cabal of conservative Republicans plotted to drive him from office. The same Theodore Olson, and his wife Barbara, were at the core of the effort, which nearly succeeded in deposing a popular, duly elected president against the expressed will of the American people.

In 2000, Theodore Olson represented George W. Bush as conservative Republicans seized the presidency by forcing Florida to cease the counting of lawful votes through the machinations of the conservative Republican majority of the U.S. Supreme Court. Olson, again, was central to the effort -- a successful coup d'état.

In return for his three glorious services to the power grabbers (and other services rendered), the conservative George W. Bush appointed Theodore Olson to the position of Solicitor General of the United States, in which capacity it would be his duty to represent the interests of the United States before the Supreme Court.

In the hearing for his confirmation by the Senate Judiciary Committee in May, Olson was less than candid about his partisan activities against President Clinton, and sought to minimize their significance. Democratic senators asked for clarification of his role in the Arkansas Project, a plot against the Clintons that funneled millions of dollars through the tax-exempt American Spectator magazine's education fund. The money was used to develop scandals with which to smear the Clintons.

As the senators' questioning focused on the subversive plot, the vast covey of GOP first responders began a barrage intended to intimidate Democrats -- the same kind of verbal warfare they have deployed to quash and threaten Americans who protected Roosevelt, or who voted for Al Gore, or who questioned the truthfulness of Oliver North, or who protested the continuation of the Vietnam war.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. Ted was on my mind earlier today, actually .......

..... in this reply to another thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2184811#2184938

Yup, ol' Ted's pretty scary.

[Kailassa]

35. And that's who, in my opinion, paid Monica. n/t

[longship]

26. Dangerous situation.

I agree that the indictments could set up a very dangerous situation. But no indictments would be totally insane.

We've got the bastards. We need to follow through this thing no matter what. If things begin to go to hell in a hand-basket we'll have to deal with that also. We supposedly have a resilient form of government, or at least it's proved to be in the past. I'm not too cynical to put trust in it at this time. It's the only thing we have right now.

But Chimp has not only been bad at policy, he's been extraordinarily bad in leadership. We have had as close to a vacuum in leadership for five years as we've ever had. More than anything right now, we need somebody from our side of the fence to stand up and stand out as a leader. It's not yet happened, but these indictments may be a great opportunity for us to do that.

I'd embrace any Democrat who did that, even if I disagree with them on policy. It may be the singularly most important thing which can lead the country back from the brink. Make no bones about it; we are at the brink.

[Stinky The Clown]

27. OOOooooooo ...... please don't read into my post that I am opposed to

indictments. That would be a huge error. Indictments are the best thing that can happen .... short of impeachment.

[longship]

31. I understood that.

I should have made that clear.

We're stuck with this situation. We didn't fight the fight when it would have been far easier. So now we've got this one.

This could develop into a constitutional crisis very easily. Somebody damned well better blink, and soon. I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't be Fitzgerald.

I worry about Chimp's stability. No matter who people think is actually running things, he's the one with the office and the power. He could fire everybody in the West Wing tomorrow and nobody would be able to stop him. He could put in a whole new cabinet and nobody would be able to stop him.

We need that Dem leader.

[pacalo]

32. Good point! With or without his neocon advisors, we're screwed.

But, you know, a "rudderless" presidency might lead to the big "I".

[No Exit]

33. NO, NO, NO!!! Don't worry, be happy

What we have had was all three branches of government in the stranglehold of the worst bunch of crooks/murderers I've ever seen in Washington, D.C. Not to mention, numerous state governorships and courts.

What we need is a breaking of that stranglehold--a release of at least one of the branches. That is what we might get, if we're really lucky in this Plame investigation.

Imagine an army with 3 battalions attacking you relentlessly. Suddenly one battalion is struck down. Trust me, you are then MUCH better off!!!

"Can we survive three years of rudderless governance?"

What are we--sheep to the slaughter?? We have to have someone telling us what to do, even if it's an evil someone?? Some of us are the descendants of pioneers or slaves. Such people were strong, or they'd have no descendants. We don't need a tyrant. We can do it better ourselves.

THE GOVERNMENT IS THERE TO SERVE US--NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. WE ARE HERE TO LEAD THE GOVERNMENT--NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

36. The thing that concerns me is that George is a dry drunk.

And that is a personality that if it perceives itself as being under attack, and worse, losing the attack, they can become quite unstable and irrational. An for a guy that has access to the football, that's bad.

[0rganism]

37. I don't think it's ever been clearer: we're on our own now

The federal government is simply crippled with corruption. Don't expect Washington D.C. to do the right thing, whatever the remaining individuals of integrity may have to say. Many state governments are arguably worse. It's really down to the local level now, like getting bond measures on the ballots to keep municipal governments solvent. We've taken a huge gigantic leap backwards: the Great Society is all but gone, the New Deal is in jeopardy, and we're scheduled to get a heaping helping of Gilded Age with a side dish of Red Scare. Whatever else happens, don't lose sight of your school board, your libraries, your parks, your emergency services, and your public utilities (for those still lucky enough to have them).

This is called "Starting Over Halfway Done." And it's going to be a fucking mess for a LONG time to come, regardless of who sits on the court. Just pray to whatever gods you hold sacred that none of the remaining SCOTUS moderates kick it while the republicans hold the presidency.

[Jacobin]

38. It's like "Home Alone" in the WH

Now, instead of the criminals telling what to do, we'll have a new set of in effect, ministers, running the government, like the Dauphins of old.

[bonito]

39. We're already in splinters on the rocks

Waiting for a new caption to rebuild again, with no more bullship in the plans.

[struggle4progress]

40. We sailed into Deep Shit some time ago: the government is controlled ..

.. by a group of traitors who are deliberately trying to bankrupt the United States; torture is a national policy, pro-torture judges have been appointed, and Death Squad Johnny is our intelligence czar; the ruling cabal keeps floating trial balloons on militarizing everything in sight, from disaster relief to public health organizations; rightwing dispensationalists (who really want an Armageddon in the Middle East to force, as they think, the coming of the Messiah) get an friendly ear in foreign policy circles -- almost anybody here could fill a whole page with more bad news.

As the mast falls off the Ship of State, we know who to blame. And I, for one, will be glad that we are no longer sailing full speed ahead into stinkier waters. With Captain Wacko and his handful of loyalists effectively confined to the officers' mess, the rest of us can draw a breath and consider how to prepare for the coming wind and waves ...

[MADem]

41. I think some of the old lions will step in

The lions in the Senate, specifically, the gang of 14. They see that we have reached a tipping point, and I suspect they will start communicating strongly that his agenda will be totally shut down if he does not adjust and adapt.

The new crew, depending who they are, won't be imbued with the same level of confidence as the old strutting crowd. I think the lions can intimidate them.

It won't be Democratic governance, but it will be better than it is now.

[TheModernTerrorist]

43. I'm worried about

him going bat-shit crazy, ala Dr. Strangelove.