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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:09 PM
Original message
Fundamentalist Christianity is JUST AS BAD as Fundamentalist Islam
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 06:25 PM by An Unabashed Atheist
It always amazes me when the far-right Christian wackos try to justify the Iraq War, and Bush's vision of the War on Terror, by citing the incompatibility of Fundamentalist Islam with freedom and liberty. The hypocrisy is so staggering because Fundamentalist Christianity is equally as incompatible with freedom and liberty. And, these far-right Christian wackos are admittedly trying to make Biblical precepts part of public policy! Thus, these people are not opposed to oppressive theocracies. They just want an oppressive theocracy driven by their own dogma, rather than Islamic dogma.

Another one of my favorite hypocrisies from these people is when they talk about how evil/hate-filled/violent the Koran is.

Here are 20 of my favorite BIBLE passages, which also happen to be variably evil, hate-filled and violent. I often quote these to far-right Christian wackos.

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.
Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession.
You may even bequeath them to your sons after you, to receive as a possession; you can use them as permanent slaves. But in respect to your countrymen, the sons of Israel, you shall not rule with severity over one another.
Lev 25:44-46

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.
But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,'
then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
Ex 21:2-8

Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;
Eph 6:5

Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
Col 3:22

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
1Cor 14:34

Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1Tim 2:9-14

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
Num 31:17

How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones
Against the rock.
Psalm 137:9

Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat.
Lev 26:29

'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.
--Jesus
Rev 2:23

If there is a man who marries a woman and her mother, it is immorality; both he and they shall be burned with fire, so that there will be no immorality in your midst.
Lev.20:14

Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire.
Lev.21:9

Now the people became like those who complain of adversity in the hearing of the LORD; and when the LORD heard it, His anger was kindled, and the fire of the LORD burned among them and consumed some of the outskirts of the camp.
Num.11:1

And the king said to her, "What is the matter with you?" And she answered, "This woman said to me, 'Give your son that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow.'
"So we boiled my son and ate him; and I said to her on the next day, 'Give your son, that we may eat him'; but she has hidden her son."
2 Kg.6:28-29

"Speak to Aaron, saying, 'No man of your offspring throughout their generations who has a defect shall approach to offer the food of his God.
For no one who has a defect shall approach: a blind man, or a lame man, or he who has a disfigured face, or any deformed limb,
or a man who has a broken foot or broken hand,
or a hunchback or a dwarf, or one who has a defect in his eye or eczema or scabs or crushed testicles.
No man among the descendants of Aaron the priest who has a defect is to come near to offer the LORD'S offerings by fire; since he has a defect, he shall not come near to offer the food of his God.
He may eat the food of his God, both of the most holy and of the holy,
only he shall not go in to the veil or come near the altar because he has a defect, so that he will not profane My sanctuaries. For I am the LORD who sanctifies them."
Lev.21:17-23

"Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him that we may preserve our family through our father."
So they made their father drink wine that night, and the firstborn went in and lay with her father; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
On the following day, the firstborn said to the younger, "Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve our family through our father."
So they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father.
Genesis 19:32-36

Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.
But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.
Gen.38:9-10

and whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.
2 Chr.15:13

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ
1 Cor.11:3

"Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof."
Gen.19:8

He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."
...
Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen.22:2,10
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think you'll find most agree with you n/t
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. I too am an unabashed (existentialist!) atheist, and I agree 100%.
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. but fundamentalist pastafarians
eat well.
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm a liberal Christian (rarely church-going) who agrees with you 100%
In fact, I fear Christian fundamentalists FAR more than I fear Islamic fundamentalists. The former are far more likely to hurt me personally.
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salib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. "Fundamentalism" is pretty bad, but
Charismatic is worse. Basically, like most "fundamentalist" congregations in my neck of the woods, charismatics are simply led by the nose by some "charismatic" pastor/preacher/minister/whateverer. So, you a crazy using a maniacal philosophical basis to lead a bunch of petty bourgeois wanna-be goodies.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. I would have to disagree with that
Christian Fundies are MUCH worse and MORE dangerous because their leader has tens of thousands of nuclear weapons and he is stark fucking raving mad.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. And I hope you get the same response that moderate Muslims
cite back: It's not the original texts, it's how they're interpreted.

Very few churches, however fundamentalist, make a habit of offering burnt offerings on an altar, or dashing out tykes brains.

Very few churches, however liberal, would endorse having a son marry his mother.

This reduces much of what you cite to the status of a straw man. It makes arguments much easier to win.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. Right
Churches today in Christianity definietly don't do burnings anymore. That's where Jesus came in.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #25
55. No, but
some of them swing censers and light candles and use holy water and take the body of Christ.

Earth, air, fire, and water. All bound together by the- wait for it- Holy Spirit.

Having lived with a Wiccan for five years now- those things are suspiciously familiar.

File this under "think that make me go, 'HHHHHhhhmmmmmmmmm......'"
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
57. That's a strange thing to hope.
Edited on Sun Oct-30-05 10:59 AM by Arianrhod
Of course modern churches don't do any of these things; Christians have been selectively believing and practicing for 1900 years. Such selectivity began with the rise of the original Church in Jerusalem (the feud between Paul and James), and has continued down through the ages by means of various Councils, anti-heretical Crusades, Papal Bulls, and Protestant movements. The Church as practiced today is nothing like it was in 326 CE, when it was given political legitimacy--let alone in 36. Hence the fact that there are 20,000 sects in existence at last count--each teaching something different.

There simply is no such thing as "true" Christianity.

Meanwhile, to address your subject line, none of the people in question speak Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic. How do they know what the manuscripts say?

Moreover, there isn't a single New Testament manuscript in existence that is older than the 2nd Century CE--and no Old Testament older than the 2nd BCE. IOWs--there are no "original texts". I've personally viewed the two oldest NTs we have--the Sinai Codex and the Alexandria Codex--and the texts don't agree with each other. Which one is "correct"?

So what religious nuts may believe the "original texts" have to say is worse than irrelevant, IMO. These people are divorced from reality.

That makes them incredibly dangerous. To be rooting them on, then, is--IMO--not particularly wise.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
81. This Muslim does say that Fundamentalism is bad.
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The River Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's More OLD Testament Religion vs NEW Testament
Religion.
If I remember my bible (very vaguely) most of your quotes are OT.
It's as if the fundies are attracted to the bloody, fearful and
vengeful god of the OT. I wonder if they aren't so full of emotional shame that they secretly want a dictatorial god (and pResident) to make them miserable, to punish them for their "sins".
They think the loving god that jeezus speaks of is some sort of liberal scam. Most all of the religious Dems/Progressives I know are very much New Testament Christians. The fundies just want you to burn in hell...lol
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blossomstar Donating Member (772 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. Oh THANK you for this article! WELL SAID... now if only the rest of
this country can see the danger to our democracy from these extreme right wing "christians"! Our forefathers who gave their very blood to have freedom of religion would turn over in their graves..... how soon we forget!
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. Welcome to DU
Tired of nutty fundies in your face? Me too!
http://www.livejournal.com/community/thought_express/14905.html
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. Reading those quotes just reaffirms my position that the sole
purpose of religion was to control the masses. Anyone who buys that shit deserves to be a slave.
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spacelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. Tell me something I don't know. n/t
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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks for your comments!
Thanks for your comments so far, everybody!

Seems that many of you agree with me that Fundamentalist Christianity is indeed a huge danger to the United States, as well as the larger whole of human society.

Indeed, as an atheist, I view religion overall as a pernicious influence. However, Fundamentalism, whether of the Islamic or Christian variety, is the most pernicious enemy facing our species.

I have utterly no respect for the right-wing Christian wackos who, out of one side of their mouth, condemn Islamic theocracies in the Middle East, but out of the other side of their mouth, call for a Christian theocracy right here in the United States.

I declare my personal independence from Christian morality, which I consider to be illusory and false. The day that Christian morality is codified in the US law books is the same day that the United States completes its steady descent down the toilet bowl.

Though I am a Libertarian--not a liberal--I recognize that conservatives are the ones flushing the bowl on us.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
14. great list. Welcome to DU!
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mikefromwichita Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. Never lived in a moslem controlled State have ya?
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I have never heard of a "moslem" controlled state. What is it?
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. At least he didn't use Mohammedan, or....
some other variation.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. Deleted message
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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Agreed.
Agreed.

Those are miserable places.

BUT, a Christian theocracy would be just as bad. Maybe worse.

The US is not a Christian theocracy...yet. However, the right-wing Christian wackos are certainly fighting to make Biblical precepts the basis of public policy--step one toward Christian theocracy.

Turn the country over to Falwell, Robertson, Dobson and Bork? Guess what, I might choose Syria.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Deleted message
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. They are far from any Constitutional Originalists I have ever seen...
From there rhetoric, both published and broadcast, they would like me to be dead, forgive me for being afraid of them gaining power in this country.
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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Homosexuality is an executable offense.
According to The Bible, homosexuality is an executable offense. Let's be clear about that. If you read The Bible, it is explicit in its condemnation of homosexuality and its prescription that homosexuals be executed. I have no doubt that in a Christian Theocracy:

1. Homosexuality would be a capital offense.
2. Pre-marital sex would be illegal.
3. Contraceptives would be illegal.
4. Abortion would be illegal, even to save the mother's life.
5. Perceived blasphemy would be illegal.
6. Women having power over men in any substantial way would be outlawed.

and all other sorts of rules and regulations that seem remarkably similar to the codes of Muslim Theocracies at present.

I much prefer secularity, with reverence only, perhaps, to science and reason.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Not homosexual...
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 20: 18
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. Deleted message
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nashbridges Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
90. Have you read the Koran?
Homosexuality doesn't get a fair shake there, either. Go nuts with one text and you're going to get hurt.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. Deleted message
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #37
59. "Friendly Fascism"? Explain, please. nt
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #32
79. Vatican, Great Britain are christian theocracies
Both nations heads of state are religous people.
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
38. This Muslim won't argue with you
Islam can be interpreted so that violence can be acceptable.

Christianity can too, but this has decreased over the centuries as things such as Separation of Religious Institute and State have come into play.

But, don't think I'm going to close this post without making a jab of truth at the RW'ers.

Reagan, his buddies, and other RW'ers have been a force detrimental to bringing Islam into modernity.

Iran-Contra, putting up the Shah in Iran, helping Saddam Hussein in the 80's, helping the Afghan Mujahideen fight the Soviets, etc. are all things that have helped Islamic Fundamentalists.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Deleted message
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
53. I have.
I lived in Malaysia for three years,and Egypt for a year. There were the usual censorship issues, a religious police, and one set of laws for Moslem's and another set for everyone else.

Traveling back and forth taught me, was if the christians had their way here, it would be much worse than over there. Where in Malaysia, all the Moslem's had to abide by a specific set of laws, a christian controlled theocracy would push much the same set of laws on everyone regardless of whether they were christian or not.
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nashbridges Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #53
91. Then you've never spent time in Indonesia
or Iran, or Saudi Arabia.

My wife grew up in Malaysia, there was plenty of external pressure in how to live. Spend some time living there and not working there and you'll see it. The only thing that kept you from being hurt was money (business).
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
17. Repigious fundamentalism is the single greatest danger the world faces
The religion that the fundamentalists practice makes no difference, they are all evil people whenther Muslim fundamentalists, Christian Fundamentalists, o whatever Fundamentalists.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I agree, Walt...
Fundamentalists can not be swayed by reason, or logic, and fall back to quoting a document that all do not accept as their reasons. They are not content to live their own lives, protected by freedom of religion, but are adamant in forcing that same religion, and their points of view, down everybody else's throat.

They are a danger for us, and for the entire world. If they could live, and let live, I would have no problem. When they try to seize from me the prerogative to choose what is moral and what is not, then there is a great problem. They try to take for themselves that choice. For me, the fundamentalists, Christian, Muslim, or whatever, are a cancer on society, in that they sow seeds of violence, and try to spread that violence in the name of freedom of religion. They are only content when their view of what is moral and just is the only view, and forms the basis for law.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. Deleted message
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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Check this link.
Check this link: http://libertariandefender.blogspot.com/2005/09/religion-kills-in-somber-remembrance.html

I cited it elsewhere in this same thread.

Very informative, my fellow Libertarian!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Deleted message
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. Christian majority states have little, if anything, to do with Christian
Edited on Sat Oct-29-05 08:54 PM by Walt Starr
Fundamentalism

Get your temrinology stright before spouting bullshit of which you know nothing.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. Welcome to DU from the Evil Atheist Conspiracy!
Great post! Here's your official EAC rubber chicken.
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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thank you kindly
Thank you kindly for it!
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
21. Support The Separation Of Church & State...
welcome to du, An Unabashed Atheist :hi: :kick: :patriot:
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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Exactly.
Exactly.

Separate church and state.

If millions of people want to believe in illogic in the privacy of their homes, that's fine. However, I stand firmly against codifying religious illogic into laws we all must follow.

Should it strike any fellow atheist's fancy, check out the following link, which leads to a brief and scholarly case against Christianity and The Bible: http://libertariandefender.blogspot.com/2005/09/strong-atheists-case-against-christian.html

Enjoy.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. All you have to do
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 11:39 PM by FreedomAngel82
is mention the Salem "witch" trials and ask people if they want that again. Do they want to burn, behead, jail and drown innocent people again? Basically all the people who were involved in that were totally innocent and not "witches" in any sense. Read "The Crucible". And give them the title "Night" from Elie Wiesel with the Jews in Germany.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. On witch trials
Carl Sagan covers the witch hunts very well in Demon Haunted World. Perhaps the most memorable thing I took from that book is the sheer number of "witches" put to death. I had always assumed it was a few hundred, certainly no more than 1 or 2 thousand. I had no idea it was in the tens of thousands, nor did I know that around 25% were male or that they continued through about 1750.
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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Very Interesting....and a link
Very interesting information. Thank you.

Here is a pertinent link: http://libertariandefender.blogspot.com/2005/09/religion-kills-in-somber-remembrance.html

It's titled "Religion Kills."
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
60. Thanks, from an EX-fundamentalist and fellow unabashed atheist.
Edited on Sun Oct-30-05 11:17 AM by Ladyhawk
I learned from the fundies themselves just how scary their world is and how intolerable the US would be under their control. "What's the Matter with Kansas" (AKA mikefromwichita) is wrong. As an American, I'm much more afraid of Christian fundies than I am of Muslim fundies. After all, they're the ones trying to gain control of the government.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
24. I do agree
I'm a Christian and agree highly. It is hypocriacy which is quite sad really. Nothing really different with the American Taliban and the mid east Taliban.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-28-05 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
27. Ahhh, but a fish doesn't know it is wet.
Edited on Fri Oct-28-05 11:57 PM by LostInAnomie
Fundies are so submersed in zealotry that they can't see that they are zealots. All they can see is difference. Difference to them (because they follow to the letter "the perfect word of God") is not only seen as inferior but as evil.

The big problem I have with fundies is the mandate that they feel they have received from the Bible to proselytize be any means necessary. It is not enough for them to take the plank from their eye before taking the splinter out of ours. They feel they, or at least their leaders feel, that America must be placed under their "God's" control.

They do not wish for people under their own free will to accept their beliefs. That would mean that some might not and then they wouldn't be under the church's control. They want unbending obedience to their religion, and the whole free will thing gets too messy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
34. Deleted message
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. It is pretty much the same
Edited on Sat Oct-29-05 06:27 PM by ck4829
When you enter Fundamentalism, it stops being about religion in reality.

Fundamentalists are paranoid or those who do not believe like they do, they see the non-believer as an enemy. This is true in any Fundamentalist doctrine.

I've seen Fundamentalists, I've read about them.

It's 95% - the Doctrine of someone else
5% - Bible, Quran, etc.

A Christian Fundamentalist is actually more likely to listen to Neal Horsley, or a violent Anti-Choice Advocate, than read the Bible.

An Islamic Fundamentalist is more likely to dwell on the words of people like Osama bin Laden than to read the Quran.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Deleted message
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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. Who, them or me?
If you think I'm intolerant of those who are radically opposed to human and civil rights, you can say that I am intolerant.

I don't see Fundamentalists of any religion rallying around for human rights or civil rights. Fundamentalists offer little to nothing for human progress.

All I see is that they are claiming that they are persecuted.

Need proof?

Just look at any Just-Us Sunday.

Look at any Anti-Israel rally.

If you think Fundamentalists are fine people, that's fine by me, but I'll trust any person who believes their faith in moderation over a Fundamentalist any day.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
70. Question: Do the Christian fundamentalists you know follow the
teachings of the old testament or the new testament?

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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #34
61. Christian Fundamentalism got its start
in the late 19th Century when a group of clerics--largely Presbyterian--put together a series of booklets entitled "The Fundamentals". In this series, they laid down precisely what it means to be a "true" Christian. Although a literal interpretation of scripture was part of the code, it was by no means the only thing defining the movement. In large part, the Fundamentalist movement was a reaction against science and the leaning of society towards a liberal social conscience. It made its biggest splash with the 1925 Scopes trial--which, btw, the Fundamentalists won.

Take a look at the decree a couple years ago by the Southern Baptist Convention--a decidedly Fundamentalist group. It was so anti-women that Jimmy Carter resigned from the Convention in protest.

To claim that Fundamentalists are against war is nonsense. The only Christian sect genuinely against war, that I know of, is the Quakers. I've never met a Christian yet who couldn't justify war on some ground or other.

BTW, if one is following "Holy Writ" to the letter, then there is no such thing as "defensive war". There is, however, "turning the other cheek", "giving a man your cloak", and "walking a second mile". Justification for war is a later doctrine of the Church.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Deleted message
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Feminism is defined as regarding men and women as legal equals...
so yes, by your own definition the SBC is anti-woman in regards to equal rights.
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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #65
83. I hate it when the mods delete messages.
I never get to read the good stuff.

hahaha
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nickgutierrez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #34
73. "Fundamentalism", in practice, is different from in theory.
It generally refers only to legal code, in such a way as to keep the masses in line while the government profits off of them in one way or another. This is, generally speaking, regardless of religion - the leaders of a fundamentalist state are generally not tied to the same laws their citizens abide by.

And, of course, there can almost certainly be no democracy in a fundamentalist regime of any variety - after all, how can there be multiple ways of looking at law when the word is absolute?
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
36. Both are promoters of male domination.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #36
50. Deleted message
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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #50
56. The fact that your religion places them into pre-defined positions.
Edited on Sun Oct-30-05 11:23 AM by PowerToThePeople
No freedom there.

Well, freedom to give that religion the bird.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. Deleted message
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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Actually, you don't get to make that choice for others.
Edited on Sun Oct-30-05 01:54 PM by PowerToThePeople
I fight FOR peoples rights. You seem to think that "A woman has her place and a man his." IMHO, this is a very wrong attitude and one that should be eradicated from any decent civilization.

edit-
"I expect that NOT being able to control others annoys you to no end." - mikefromwichita.

Actually, you are very wrong in this matter. I do not look to control others at all, except to stop them when their actions encroach on another humans rights.

And, I personally know women in relationships defined as you have stated. Most of them do not like the way it is but go along with it out of a sense of duty, or not to start trouble in the marriage. I would very much consider these repressive relationships.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Deleted message
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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. So many abused wives request help from others.
You either do not understand the nature of repressive relationships, or you condone them.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. In a former life, did you once own a plantation?
:shrug:

Imho, your pathetic response echos the sentiments of those that tried to justify slavery.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. People can live THEIR OWN lives just fine.
When it comes to that lifestyle involving dominating others, nope, isn't going to happen.

People have no right to sujugate others. Don't like it? Move to a place more in line with totalitarianism, like North Korea or Saudi Arabia.

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. ... or another galaxy from whence came the lizard people.
Watch out! THEY are everywhere! :yoiks:

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Man, I just love your stuff.
You should sell t-shirts! (Maybe you do?)

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. Nope
I don't sell anything (except, perhaps vicariously, my demented delirium - my reaction to what I read here). I just post all my pix for free, here and elsewhere in cyberspace. :)

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. So you'd be okay with someone turning your art into a shirt...
...for personal use only?

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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #67
77. Are you off your fucking meds again mike?

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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #50
58. Hello Mike
I have a question for you.

You say you are in the Bible Belt, but yet you are in Kansas. OK, I can buy that.

But, what troubles me is that you said you know Fundamentalists and I think you are implying that they aren't all that bad, the Christian Fundamentalists anyway.

Surely you know about Fred Phelps. He is a stunning example of the 'greatness' of humanity when it follows Fundamentalism.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
78. Distinct roles? This is true
The woman in a subordinate role to the man. You should read the Da Vinci code a great book on how Christianity has crushed the "sacred feminine".

Roles are OK as long as they don't result in one group suborned to another.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
43. I agree
thanks for the list of corroborating scriptures ...
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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. You're Welcome!
I'm glad that you found the list to be of use.
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PowerToThePeople Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-29-05 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
44. Reading tonight instead of DUing. Quote from book....
"We" had become a collective entity, with all the intellectual cowardice and dishonesty of a collective being we instinctively ignored or belittled anything that could disturb our our collective self-satisfaction. A German Reich in microcosm. - Sebastian Haffner, "Defying Hitler"

This describes my perspective on organized religion.
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misternormal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
54. And we haven't even discussed...
The stealing of the Pagan Religion
The Salem Witch Trials
The Crusades
The persecutions of the indians on the California coast with the building of the missions...

There are many, many things that have been done by Fundamentalist Christians over the years.
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In_The_Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
69. Welcome to DU Unabashed Atheist

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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #69
85. Thanks!
Thanks, Joan!!
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-30-05 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
74. I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that equivalent.
The Christian Fundamentalist want to convert the whole world. That is bad, bar none

The Islam Fundamentalist wants the whole world to leave them alone. this is not bad

Cough, cough, I hear someone knocking at my door! Is it another missionary?

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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #74
84. Excellent point.
Excellent point.

As far as I'm concerned, Saudi Arabia has a RIGHT to have a wildly misogynistic government. Saudi Arabia is an autonomous country. It can do whatever it wants, with respect to domestic policy.

I wonder if the US would have ever been a victim of terrorism if we had never judged Middle Eastern culture, supported Israel or attempted to "spread freedom." If we had just left the Middle East to fester, perhaps no Jihad ever would have been called.

My foreign policy motto is this: Every country responsible for itself; no country imposing its values on another.
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Thank you. I agree with you're foregin policy motto also.
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An Unabashed Atheist Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Glad to hear it.
Glad to hear it.

Unfortunately, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats are willing to embrace a policy of isolationism, as I advocate. The only isolationist party is the Libertarian Party, which takes the common-sense stance that the military should be used for national defense, and NEVER offense.
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nashbridges Donating Member (349 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #74
88. With all due respect
I don't think you have a proper understanding of Islamic fundamentalism. It's just as bad as Christian fundamentalism. Each line of thought wants to make people think like they do. Muslim extremists do not want to be left alone, they want to make the world adhere to their own beliefs.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-31-05 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
89. I totally agree
ANY bunch of people who take stuff literally that wasn't meant to be taken literally are:

1. Idiots
2. Idiots
3. Idiots
4. Stupid Idiots
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bas Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. i'm a french student and i agree too
I'm a french student and i'm muslim. and i agree too. I really believe in god and i practice my religion and i don't need to be fondamentalist to believe.
But i think that, since 9/11, some people are afraid and tend to think that all muslims are suspectfull.
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win_in_06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
93. Fundies can be annoying, but I haven't read of them blowing up any buses
full of innocent civilians in the name of Jesus.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-05 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. No only abortion clinics and the olympics, stuff like that. n/t
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