We are a rich country!

[enid602]

Given the worldwide (including our own) reaction to US poverty in the wake of Katrina, the current administration's attempts at balancing the budget on the backs of the poor and so much speculation that we are becoming a third world country, I set out to see how we fare as far as per capita GDP. I looked at two sources, "World Facts and Figures" (http://www.worldfactsandfigures.com/gdp_country_desc.php), and "The CIA World Fact Book" (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html). Both sources gave pretty much the same results; a partial list from the CIA list follows:

1 Luxembourg $ 58,900 2004 est.
2 United States $ 40,100 2004 est.
3 Guernsey $ 40,000 2003 est.
4 Norway $ 40,000 2004 est.
5 Jersey $ 40,000 2003 est.
6 British Virgin Islands $ 38,500 2004 est.
7 Bermuda $ 36,000 2003 est.
8 San Marino $ 34,600 2001 est.
9 Hong Kong $ 34,200 2004 est.
10 Switzerland $ 33,800 2004 est.
11 Cayman Islands $ 32,300 2004 est.
12 Denmark $ 32,200 2004 est.
13 Ireland $ 31,900 2004 est.
14 Iceland $ 31,900 2004 est.
15 Canada $ 31,500 2004 est.
16 Austria $ 31,300 2004 est.
17 Australia $ 30,700 2004 est.
18 Belgium $ 30,600 2004 est.
19 United Kingdom $ 29,600 2004 est.
20 Netherlands $ 29,500 2004 est.
21 Japan $ 29,400 2004 est.
22 Finland $ 29,000 2004 est.
23 France $ 28,700 2004 est.
24 Germany $ 28,700 2004 est.
25 Man, Isle of $ 28,500 2003 est.
26 Sweden $ 28,400 2004 est.
27 Aruba $ 28,000 2002 est.
28 Gibraltar $ 27,900 2000 est.
29 Singapore $ 27,800 2004 est.
30 Italy $ 27,700 2004 est.
31 Monaco $ 27,000 2000 est.
32 European Union $ 26,900 2004 est.
33 Andorra $ 26,800 2003 est.
34 Taiwan $ 25,300 2004 est.
35 United Arab Emirates $ 25,200 2004 est.
36 Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) $ 25,000 2002 est.
37 Liechtenstein $ 25,000 1999 est.
38 Brunei $ 23,600 2003 est.
39 Spain $ 23,300 2004 est.
40 New Zealand $ 23,200 2004 est.


Of course, the above list merely measures output per person; actual incomes would be net of corporate profits and taxes paid to the government. Nor does it take into account the concentration of wealth, which differs radically among different countries.

I must admit I was shocked when I saw the list. I expected most Western Europeans to be ahead of the US. The fact that only Luxembourg has a higher per capita GDP is staggering. It means that US as a whole (which includes poorer as well as wealthier states) has a higher GDP than say Sweden or Switzerland. Not to mention Germany or Japan. Hell, at only $31,000 in GDP, our much-envied neighbor to the north is a poor realation. I'm stunned by these findings.

SO WHY DO WE HAVE SO GODDAMN MUCH POVERTY?

[KerryOn]

1. Its simple....

We have so much poverty, because you are looking at averages per person. The Bill Gates, and Mr. Walmart have more than thier fair share. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Its always been that way and it always will be.

[enid602]

4. poverty

Not necessarily. Middle class incomes did well under the New Deal, and the War on Poverty (along with a lot of determination on the part of our citizens) brought half of African Americans out of poverty. What makes us think the other half can't make it?

When travelling in Europe, I'm always amazed by the lack of poverty in most countries. I've found myself think, well, they're richer than the US. The statistics cited prove otherwise.

[babylonsister]

2. That list is also bogus because it doesn't take into

consideration the benefits certain governments give their people as far as healthcare, property rights, etc.
I don't think per capita represents the wealth of their country (Brunei, UAE?); actually, probably none of them do, including the US.

[enid602]

6. production

The list does not mention incomes at all, but rather production. For example, the average American PRODUCES about $40 grand per year, but the average Japanese only $28K. My point is, if you and I are producing so much more than the average Japanese, why can he or she afford to eradicate poverty (and afford better education and health services), but we cannot. Of course, Japan is not currently pissing away so much of its treasure on invading countries, and does not have our ingrained industrial-military complex to suck it dry. I guess it comes down to priorities.

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. It also doesn't take into account the fact...

that the Japanese worker loans us $5,000 of that $40k by financing our debt. They maintain a healthy society on $35k and we can't do it on $45k.

[enid602]

23. thrift

The Japanese worker does not save the $5K because he wants to provide low-cost loans to the US, but is most likely saving for retirement. In the US, 90% of baby-boomers between 45 and 55 have less that $50K in their 401K's, but our lack of thrift and planning is another story. It has little to do with our failure to address poverty.

[NuttyFluffers]

29. well, depends on how we calculate productivity...

i'd have to look at that a bit and then double check the standard they allowed the americans to get away with. y'see, there's this pretty stupid trick in american business where they off-shore a portion of their workforce, but only count the americans when it comes to productivity numbers.

essentially they get a workforce of 100 people, send the work of 50 people to india, then when tabulating work productivity for gov't numbers only caculate the 50 still in america. well, duh, you still get the productivity of 100 people, but you are only tabulating 50, so no kidding they look like they are twice as productive as anyone else. that's why americans are made to seem as the "most productive peole the world has ever seen!" and still in the end work less time than people in slave labor 3rd world countries. it's just another bullshit playing with numbers tactic.

now this might, or might not, be the cause for the outrageous productivity numbers that you are seeing here. but that'd require an intensive study into methodology of not just this study, but the companies that supplied the information to their respective nations in the first place. that'd take a lot of time and is probably not worth the effort.

take (dis)comfort in the fact that, yes, america is rich, and yes, there's no excuse for such poverty among us.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. Here's why.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_inc_dis_ric_10&int=20&id=OECD

The top 10% of the population gets 31% of all the cash.

Only Mexico and Turkey have a more unequal distribution of wealth.

The flip side?

The bottom 10% of the population bring home 1.8% of the total income. Mexico is a little worse, but not by much, and they are the only one.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_inc_dis_poo_10&int=-1&id=OECD

Fuck the poor. The rich need their tax cuts.

Absorb this. Understand this. Internalize this. Know this. We are not the land of the free and the home of the brave. Fuck the general welfare. Fuck the blessings of liberty for us OR our posterity.

We do not live in your grandparents country.

[CountAllVotes]

9. We do not live in your grandparents country.

No shit - the dream is over ... :( :( :(

:grr:

:kick:

[enid602]

11. distribution

That's a big part of it, and if it were the whole story, a simple reversal of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy would solve the problem in no time. But we've had a poverty problem since our country's birth. Somehow, we've never been able to come together as a country and decide what level of poverty is acceptable for our citizens. The increased awareness of poverty after Katrina is welcome, but I fear it is ephemeral, and that our concern will wane.

[lumberjack_jeff]

14. We're a long way from realizing that poverty is a problem

We're actively working to make it worse. Today the Republican congress is working out an evil plan to hack 25% from Medicaid for poor people so that they can keep their tax cuts on estates, on capital gains and other unearned income.

This is the crux of the problem:
40% of the people think that they're in the top 10% of incomes - Lots of people think they're rich.
80% of those people (who think they're rich) are wage earners, even if they're a doctor, they're still a wage-earner, they're not *rich*.
Those wage earners are overtaxed because taxation has been essentially removed from the remaining 20%. Those wealthy few are smiling happily in the corner.

So, 9 out of 10 people who consider themselves rich are overtaxed, so they assume that rich people, generally, are overtaxed.

It's not true, and those smiling happy rich people who know better aren't going to set the record straight.

[enid602]

24. yes

Interesting theory.

[sandnsea]

26. Precisely

Except it's more like the top 2%. I really thought explaining that only 2% make over $200,000 would sink in last year. But it didn't, instead people started in with how $200,000 wasn't that much money in places like San Francisco and NYC. I don't know how you ever move the tax system back to something that benefits the masses when the masses are more concerned about the 2% than themselves.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. We have a govt. run by corporations

Corporations are the institutions of the rich.
We have no say in a govt. run by corporations.






"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the republic is destroyed.” – Abraham Lincoln, 1864.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Ever read "unequal protection"? n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. No Never. Does it explain the rampant poverty in the U.S.? nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. No, but it explains why we're a country of, by and for, corporations

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. Thanks. I am looking for the book now online & will buy it

[enid602]

10. book

I, too will try to acquire the book, but still am somewhat skeptical that the US' corporate history is responsible for the degree of poverty seen in this country. Maybe the book will help me with this, but everybody seems to be blaming everyone else for our poverty. I really feel that the fault is OURS, in that we've not demanded solutions to poverty.

[enid602]

19. No

No. What is it about?

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. Synopsis

http://www.thomhartmann.com/unequalprotection.shtml

[enid602]

17. corporations

I don't know. Japan is pretty corporate. Europe has a very confusing system of governments, but they are all united when it comes to protecting European corporations. Of course, large American corporations are somewhat unique in two ways; by and large the majority do not pay taxes, and they offer their senior execs huge salaries. Still, I don't know if corporate America is responsible for American poverty. The corporations have plenty of problems, but file those under the headings of greed, outsourcing, corruption and environmental rape.

I think the fault is ours, for not adequately defining as a society what level of poverty is acceptable to us, and setting policies accordingly. Hell, poverty hasn't even been on the national agenda for decades.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. True. Corporations exist everywhere on the planet....

But nowhere do they run a govt. as completely and absolutely as in the U.S.

The U.S. has allowed corporations near-absolute power in everything, while stripping its citizens of any power. U.S. laws also allow the looting of its citizens to give the money to the rich in seemingly innocuous or secret ways, and with the money it loots from us, it provides no services for its citizens. There's no adequate help for the old, the ill, the poor, look at South Florida's miserable infrastructure, little sticks and wires above ground that fall with every hurricane because they're totally exposed. Let's face it, this place is a frikkin' mess because we allow corporations to do anything and everything they want. Every day they impoverish the citizens more and more.

I'd like to add that when I say corporations, I don't mean the local garage that does your oil and lube. I'm talking about multi-nationals behind which the mega-rich hide.

[depakid]

15. Grossly Distorted Product

GDP is NOT equivalent to wealth production.... nor does it accurately reflect a nation's quality of life.

A family could bankrupt themselves on credit card debt trying to pay off exhorbitant medical bills- and that transfer of funds would still be reflected in GDP.

Therein lies your conundrum.

[enid602]

12. GDP

GDP is THE indicator of wealth, IMO as it gauges what each person in that country produces. When you see someone producing a lot (or making a lot of money), but still living poorly, you question the way he spends his money. Theoretically, we should be able to live better than the average Japanese, and still afford to maintain an adequate safety net and health and education systems. This is clearly not happening.

[depakid]

25. It's not an indicator of wealth at all!

Look at the stat again....

Here's a few places to start:

http://www.context.org/PEOPLE/celeste/gnpp.htm

http://www.tompaine.com/Archive/scontent/9316.html

[Sarah Ibarruri]

20. I'm no economist but....

Isn't it true that the only measures economists use are those which reflect how well the rich are doing?

Not long ago I read that Brazil has one of the most up-and-coming successful economies in the Americas, and yet they have rampant, horrific poverty, beggar children are everywhere, homeless children are shot routinely, there are monstrously huge shantytowns, and it's an all around poverty-stricken land. But ooh its economy is quite solid.

Economics serves no real purpose, in my opinion, if it doesn't measure the economy of the majority of people in a country. It's a masturbatory exercise wherein the rich measure how well they're doing and how much better they wish to be doing by looting the rest.

[enid602]

7. Brazil

I go to Brazill frequently. It is a very strange country. Southern Brazil (Rio, Sao Paulo, Sao Jose, Belo Horizonte, Florianopolis and Porto Alegre) is situated close to (and has Air, freeway and train links to) the rest of South America's relatively affluent 'Southern Cone,' which includes Argentina, Chile and Uruguay. Incomes are relatively high in Southern Brazil. Northern, western and central Brazil, however are underdeveloped and horribly poor. Incomes are staggeringly low, and the majority of people are subsistance farmers. Many live in a tribal state, with little or no contact with the outside world. The Brazilian Government is justifiably proud of its protection of tribal societies.

Because of the income differential, many northern Brazilians moved southward, creating the huge favelhas of Rio and Sao Paulo. During the last 10 years I have seen favelhas in Rio cleaned up or flattened in favor of a unique form of government housing where resident/owners actually build their homes with materials and blueprints provided by the government.

Ironically, Brazil has one of the highest tax rates on individuals; their current government runs left of center. They spend little on military, and have been energy dependent for decades. 40% of all autos manufactured this year will have engines that use ethanol. If you get a chance, also read what they are doing with re: to environmental programs in the Amazon Basin.

[Kickin_Donkey]

27. It's all about the DISTRIBUTION of wealth within the United States ...

The top 1% of Americans own 38.1% America's wealth. The top 10% own 70% of the nation's wealth.

The rest of the 90% of the U.S. population owns only 29% of the nation's wealth, with the bottom 40% owning a scant 0.2% of the wealth.

Microsoft CEO Bill Gates has more wealth than the bottom 45 percent of American households combined.

Broad statistics like GDP per capita can lie. One must look at the distribution of wealth across the society. I can't find the reference, but a couple of years ago I read that the inequality of wealth distribution in the United States was the worst of all developed countries. Nations such as those in Western Europe and Canada and Japan have a much flatter distribution profile. I think I also read that the disparity in the United States was moving toward those typical of Third World countries.

While other developed countries don't have as many, or any, uber rich like Bill Gates and Donald Trump, those countries tend not to have the expansive slums or "bad areas" of virtually every American city or the huge underclass that you see in the U.S., not to mention the high levels of crime or other things like infant mortality.


http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/wealth_distribution1999.html
http://www.inplainsight.info/Topics/Tax%20Reform/wealth.htm
http://www.therationalradical.com/dsep/wealth-distribution.htm
http://www.faireconomy.org/research/wealth_charts.html
http://www.levy.org/default.asp?view=research_distro
http://tiger.berkeley.edu/sohrab/politics/wealthdist.html

[enid602]

30. incredible

"Microsoft CEO Bill Gates has more wealth than the bottom 45 percent of American households combined." Good God.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. There is no real progressive taxation in the U.S. at all

As long as there isn't, there will be an unfair distribution of this country's wealth.

[NuttyFluffers]

28. we ARE a rich nation, with horrible distribution.

we are like... #1 in wealth at $13 trillion gdp. 2nd is japan at around.. what was it... $4 trillion?

but screw those numbers. an average between a homeless man and bill gates is that both are worth in excess of $20 billion. horseshit. lies, damn lies, and statistics. that's like nonsense where half the population is male, and the other half is female, and therefore if we add all the testicles and ovaries together and do the math... each man and woman have 1 testicle and 1 ovary. useless data.

if you want to find something worth looking at look at distribution. japan is like... 4th in equitable distribution of wealth. that's why it's in pretty good shape. equitable distribution means most people are doing well, thus the economy is less dependent on external trade because it has such a strong internal base to work with, thus once again enriching those part of the society, etc. a functioning cycle. things we used to have in america, until we decided to let dipshits kill the goose that laid the golden eggs and rip out manufacturing and middle class out of our society.

in truth, you are right, there's no excuse for the poverty that goes on in america. never has been, never will be. far too many people find the american dream a nightmare.