Forget LIHOP/MIHOP, it's WSTH.

[bigbrother05]

Wanted Something To Happen. From the time he decided to run, he put together a team dedicated to 'rebuild' the world, think PNAC. At the beginning, they took Powell at State out of the ME and put Rummy at DoD in charge of all diplomacy in the region. They continually ratcheted up the rhetoric, basically daring anyone to knock the chip off their shoulder. They were itching for a fight, but Osama caught them flat footed. They thought it would be like Kenya or the Cole or maybe even the 1st WTC attack. Hell, they probably even figured in an OKC equivalent, but seeing the towers come down made even a blank slate like GW blanche and run for the hills. Once the ghouls in the bowels of the WH were able to slap him out of it, he started joking about how he had hit the trifecta, heh, heh. Only the kind of backstabbing bastards we have in this misAdministration could openly make such a statement, much less use it as a repeated punchline in public appearances. Look back at the video of his hunt for WMD under the Oval Office sofas, a real thigh slapper.

Remember this, they Wanted Something To Happen!!!

[lonestarnot]

1. MIHOP! 9/11, Iraq, Oil Prices.... SO YOU need to do some remembering!

[bigbrother05]

13. When you want something to happen

there are many ways that can manifest itself. It is possible to standby and do nothing to help and then retain plausible deniability. Think they have a lot to answer for, but will save my tin foil hat for when we get closer to the sources.

Think it is clear that these a**holes were trying to get something started, just have some differences on the the degree of their active involvement in them. Nixon & Co were involved at all kinds of levels and Raygun/Poppy & Co were all over Iran/Contra and its associated crap (Mena, etc.), so there is every reason to believe that there are several G. Gordon Liddy or Ollie North wannabees just waiting to be unearthed.

Fully expect that we are only just seeing the tip of this iceberg, so keeping my powder dry until we can see the whites of their eyes.

And don't forget the quote from one of Ronnie's old westerns, "Aim low, they might be crawlin'."

[lonestarnot]

27. Never watched Ronnie's old western... easter egg hunts

don't amuse me.

[bigbrother05]

33. Could be an generation difference

Grew up with 3 channels of B&W, so was glad anything was on TV.

Don't really disagree with LIHOP or MIHOP viewpoints, but think that no matter how involved they were, they did things hoping to create a chance to act on their underlying intentions. Entrapment is illegal, trading with the enemy is treason and lying to the American people to precipitate a war should be viewed for what it is, the ultimate betrayal by an (un)elected official.

[lonestarnot]

40. Killing Americans to get the rest of them so stirred up and scared

shitless re terrorism is pretty treasonist act no?

[bigbrother05]

43. The treason goes back to GHWB at least

for some of these bastards. They are focused on one thing and it isn't good governance.

[The Doctor.]

29. The evidence is rather compelling.

No one has satifactorily explained building seven yet.

And believe you me... I've been looking.

http://www.wtc7.net/

If you can study this and still deny there is a strong case for MIHOP, then I applaud your psychological defense mechanisms.

[Swamp Rat]

31. Cool sigline graphic!

I like it! Is there a larger version of it somewhere for the taking? :)

[The Doctor.]

34. I don't know...

I guess you'll just have to steal this one the way I did.

PS: Mind if I collect your work?

[Swamp Rat]

42. Here's a couple for ya:

Be my guest. :)

[The Doctor.]

48. Thank You! You do great work!

I think 'Psycho' will be my new desktop until the wife decides otherwise.

[EuroObserver]

35. Keeping some powder dry here (UK) too, bigbrother05 n/t

[unblock]

2. they were definitely spoiling for a fight.

my own view is that the 9/11 terrorists had to have some help from inside the government and/or military. now, exactly WHO that help came from, THAT's the interesting question.

was there actually anyone in the administration involved? or was it merely some powerful pnac'ers in key positions in the military? or perhaps it was even more al qaeda infiltrators that we have yet to learn about?

:shrug:

[No Exit]

3. It sure is funny how when they want something, they magically get it. n/t

[unblock]

5. i will note this. they sure didn't have much of a plan OTHER than war.

they had the tax cut initially, of course, but that was pretty much it. what the hell else was their plan if not war in the middle east?

[No Exit]

11. Oh, their plan WAS war in the middle east.

Please read this, by Juan Cole:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/102905X.shtml

The taking of Iraq has been a dream of theirs for many years now. The whole thing was planned in advance.

Not only that, but Afghanistan was planned, because Unocal wanted to build a pipeline there, but a report had concluded that it could not be done while the Taliban were in control of Afghanistan.

Of course, it was just a coincidence that shortly after the neocons came to power in the White House, we happened to be attacked by an arch-terr'ist who happened to be hiding out in Afghanistan, where he happened to have protection from the Taliban--the selfsame Taliban that was giving Unocal such headaches.

Please also look for the "Bridas" articles at www.onlinejournal.com, in the archives. You'll see--it isn't just Michael Moore making this point!

[EuroObserver]

41. I suddenly feel the need to defend these people. Thus:

Leaving aside all sentiment, all feelings of common, shared humanity, if you have no heart, no fear of divine retribution or of the consequences of extreme HUBRIS;

If all you care about is that your particular tribe of well-connected, wealthy individuals and, maybe, mrmbers of your families, end up dominating the entire world in their own interest (and FUCK EVERYONE ELSE);

In the context of a possible present-day post-cold-war entirely egostic, shoot first, ask questions later type of understanding of realpolitik (without even having bothered to study Machiavelli first, much less HISTORY);

Then Mesopotamia is the right place to start.

(After all, no one's yet had to pay for the original North American Genocide, so far, isn't that right?)

[No Exit]

49. Mesopotamia: the cradle of civilization

and, oh my, what a great job we're doing of restoring it to its former glory...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

4. I can buy WSTH

because I have a feeling we might be there now.

I just can't get into LIHOP or particularly MIHOP but those were heady days and if they came back again...

well...

let's just hope they never do.

[suziedemocrat]

6. I TOTALLY agree!!

I simply can not believe MIHOP - for one thing - these guys seem too incompetent to pull it off. I was a LIHOP - but your are right they WANTED it: to get a friendly government in Afghanistan to let them put in their pipeline, to justify wars in the middle-east - Iraq AND Iran, to give them popularity because they are "tough guy Republicans" - not "Wussie Democrats" and when we are at war - we'll turn to them.

It might have worked if they weren't too stupid to win the war in Iraq. Let's face it - we will NEVER win. We will eventually give up and who knows what will happen to that country.

These people are proof that you can be Evil AND Incompetent.

[lonestarnot]

7. To each his own here at DU MIHOP.

[Mnemosyne]

15. I;m with you lonestarnot, MIHOP. n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

22. MIHOP/LIHOP all the same to me. I just wish they would get nailed

for what they did on 9/11. :grr:

[Mnemosyne]

28. Hear, hear! n/t

:woohoo: :popcorn:

[LSK]

9. they seem to be competent enough to steal elections n/t

[Mnemosyne]

14. truth n/t

[EuroObserver]

36. Won the 'war', lost the 'peace' there. n/t

[jobycom]

8. That's how I see it, too. Well said. nt.

[DS1]

10. Eh, they did it right with Afghanistan - at least in the beginning

but then politics did it's dirty work, all the effort went to shit, and now the region has turned into a global "Hamburger Hill". Fight for ground, leave, rinse, repeat. You are correct in the idea that that Iraq was going to be invaded no matter what, they went looking for the excuse. There's no doubt in my mind that the Aug 6th briefing that said


Osama Bin Laden determined to strike inside the United States*

had a rider stating

*You don't get what's going on here, shut the fuck up and do what Daddy says, boy.

[HawkerHurricane]

21. They did it right (at first) in Afghanistan because...

they used the existing military plan*, not some PNAC rewrite by a bunch of gamers who never wore a uniform.
They rewrote it later, that's why it's a mess now.
And Iraq, they wrote themeselves, because they are convinced they know more than guys who spent thier lives planning such things.

*There is a office in the Pentagon, whose name I do not know, that does nothing but writed warplans. They have plans for everything: How to invade Bermuda, what to do if Japan attack Hawaii again, how to deal with a combined Canada/Mexico invasion... It's what this office DOES. They write the plans, they update the plans, they dust off the ones that look likely...
In the years between WW1 and WW2, this office wrote a series of plans codenamed RAINBOW. Just before WW2 broke out, RAINBOW 5 was written. In RAINBOW, all opposing countries were color coded: Japan was orange, Germany black, China yellow, England red, France blue, U.S. green, communist uprising in U.S. white... everything had a plan and a color. When the war broke out, the U.S. Navy followed Warplan Orange almost to the letter. (The Army, under MacAurther, made a quick improvised plan to support the Navy... against Germany, the plan had to be majorly rewritten).

[DS1]

24. Yes, I know of this dept

But I don't know its name.

[HawkerHurricane]

25. Probably something simple...

Like "Department of War Planning" or "Defense Planning Department".

Someone's got to lay the groundwork, you can't just decide "I'll go invade somebody". You've got to plan
a. How will the troops get there?
b. How will we feed the troops on the way there?
c. How many typewriters will we need?
(Mentioned the last because for D-Day, they did plan on how many typewriters would be needed, and how many they could expect to lose to enemy action...)

On a side not, during the opening stages of WW1, the German Army had it's plans all laid out, and after they started, the Kaiser asked if they could stop to negotiate. Turned out they couldn't stop, because if the troops didn't keep moving they couldn't feed them. The troop trains were blocking the supply trains... you had to move the troops to the front so the food could reach them... and if the troops reached the front, no one would negotiate. There was nothing in the plans for choices like that.

[DS1]

26. That is totally fascinating

Your knowledge of history is amazing

[EuroObserver]

39. Yes indeed. The best-laid plans of mice and men... n/t

[HawkerHurricane]

45. Going off topic

The German WW1 warplan reminds me of the original nuclear war plans. We had so few warheads, the plan was 'Launch everything at these targets, hope most get through, and the enemy will be crippled'.
As we got more warheads (and the 'enemy' got his own) we kept the same plans into the early 1960's... which lead to the strange concept of having some 70 warheads targeting Moscow, delivered by some 20 land based missiles, 12 sea based, and 3 squadrons of bombers. These warheads would land over a period of 2 weeks, with most arriving during the first 10 hours.
Which lead to McNamara's outburst "You don't have a warplan, you have a orgasm."
Which lead to variable response, the MAD concept, brinkmanship, etc.

[EuroObserver]

37. You would have had better, more solid, company

if only the motivation had been genuine and you'd waited for the fact-finding to deliver and a genuine UN Security Council Resolution.

[OKNancy]

12. TITS

Too Incompetent To Stop ( It)

Don't believe in LIHOP or MIHOP.

[pox americana]

16. funny! :)

[leesa]

17. They knew the towers were going to come down. It was a demolition.

Ask Marvin Bush, who was on the Board of Directors for security of the WTC until the day the towers fell. A fact Bush very conveniently did not disclose as he should have.

[pox americana]

19. Yep, what a coincidence that at least four NYC media companies

had midtown office towers in the works, now under construction or completed: New York Times, Bloomberg, Time-Warner, and Hearst Corp.

Now how did they know the market for Manhattan office space would pick up after years of flatlining?

[pox americana]

18. Based on what I've learned in the last year or so

I think it was planned well before Shrub got elected, maybe as early as the '93 bombing, which was also a government operation, at least initially (officially, an FBI sting that "went bad").

[TheGunslinger]

20. Don't forget, the PNAC has been a remora.

They were born out of the Nixon era and come into its own during the Reagan era (fighting against the Evil Empire). Once the Soviet Union collapsed (we didn't "win" the Cold War...they spent themselves into oblivion), the PNAC had to create a new monster: Islamic radicals.

The PNACers were likely the ones behind Poppy's "New World Order" and then they attached themselves to the Clinton administration (Clinton is not completely innocent of an interventionist foreign policy) and then they hit their stride after 9/11 occurred.

[brentspeak]

23. This thread belongs in the Sept.11th forum

[mirandapriestly]

30. Yeah, where no one will read it.

So what if it was the most significant event in the last 5 years. It certainly has benefited the bush administration hasn't it?

[Swamp Rat]

32. Yes, and here as well. RE: "WSTH"

The OP, in my estimation, is trying to disseminate the "WSTH" acronym, and GD is a very good place to start with that endeavor. :)

[callady]

38. Defence Policy Guidance Document-Initial Draft Feb 18th 1992

No Need to Speculate-


Initial Draft (Feb. 18, 1992)

1) Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to general global power.

2) The U.S. must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests. In non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and economic order. We must maintain the mechanism for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role.

Latest Draft (April 16, 1992)

6) In the Middle East and Persian Gulf, we seek to foster regional stability, deter aggression against our friends and interests in the region, protect U.S. nationals and property, and safeguard our access to international air and seaways and to the region's oil. The United States is committed to the security of Israel and to maintaining the qualitative edge that is critical to Israel's security. Israel's confidence in its security and U.S.-Israel strategic cooperation contribute to the stability of the entire region, as demonstrated once again during the Persian Gulf War. At the same time, our assistance to our Arab friends to defend themselves against aggression also strengthens security throughout the region, including for Israel. (pg. 14)

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/Wolfowit...

Scooter and Paul Wolfowitz are the devious criminal minds behind the Bush gangster doctrine currently responsible for killing around 100,000 Iraqis. Scooter and Wolfowitz devised the Defense Policy Guidance document for Dick Cheney back in 1992. It is now more or less the Bush playbook for “pre-emptive force to prevent countries from developing weapons of mass destruction,” in other words invading Muslim countries that do not have weapons of mass destruction. It was also used as a blueprint when a clique of neocons cobbled together the criminal organization Project for a New American Century. Scooter’s lies were instrumental in the invasion of Iraq—for instance, the fairy tale one of Saddam’s intelligence agents met with supposed nine eleven “ring leader” Mohamed Atta. Scooter was so insistent this lie be included in Colin Powell’s dog and pony show at the United Nations he called him late at night in the eleventh hour and harangued him.

Scooter is a shameless criminal operator. It is said he rang the phones off the wall at the Pentagon after the Iraq invasion to make sure Halliburton received a contract to repair oil wells destroyed during the American invasion he formulated with Wolfowitz. As if to demonstrate crime is well-rewarded in Bushzarro world, Wolfowitz was appointed to run the World Bank, the largest conductor of neoliberal loan sharking on the planet.

As if to further demonstrate his criminal propensity, Scooter once told an aide he planned to stay on as Cheney’s top adviser until “I get indicted or something.” In other words, he understands full well he is a criminal and he thinks his crimes are cute and ingenious. “You never get in trouble for something you don’t say,” Libby also quipped, using an old Sam Rayburn maxim.

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=89

[bigbrother05]

44. Great links

Their focus on an issue would be admirable if it were directed at something other than world domination and the pillaging of SW Asia. That they can think of only how to push their already significant advantage in business and government affairs puts them at the head of the pack for a spot on the 21st Century Infamy pantheon. Think Tea Pot Dome.

[LunaC]

Wishful thinking or active involvement?

Read the link in my sig line then come back and we'll talk......

[bigbrother05]

47. Wouldn't put anything past those thieving bastards

just want to be able to wrap our hands around an idea that won't rule out any possible permutation of involvement.

The attempt to come up with an alternative talking point was neither naive or contrarian, just hoping to keep the conversation lively. Seems to be working.

[neebob]

46. Why not HIPS?

Hide in plain sight. It's so frickin' obvious, who gives a shit whether they wanted it to happen or made it happen or let it happen.

[TNOE]

50. It is beyond obvious to me

and frankly, I don't understand the depths of denial that other people have. Their incompetence is still glaring around 9/11 as well as with the stolen election.

They had NO Desire to investigate 9/11 - the greatest tragedy on American Soil and people/circumstances had to force the pResident's hand to investigate it? What else do you need to know? If you are innocent - let the investigations begin.

Where is the administration's evidence it was Bin Laden? Not one piece of paper has been put forth to the American People proving Bin Laden. Not one.

How could it be that there had not been a hijacking in this country for 14 years before 9/11? Because it could no longer be done. Systems were in place. To beleive that 19 hijackers hijacked 4 planes and NOTHIING - NOT ONE THING was done on that morning to stop anything - you have to believe that every single person in a position of responsibility was asleep at the wheel. And for a solid hour?

We are to beleive that men in caves had the capability to thwart a $14 TRILLION dollar defense system? That just defies logic. 9/11 could have never happened had the government NOT wanted it to happen. The towers had to come down regardless due to asbestos. This administration made enough mistakes - even by circumstantial evidence - it would make quite a compelling case at a trial. People who have willfully blinded themselves to the possibility that our own government killed their own people to encompass power & wealth have no knowledge of history. At least read up on the Northwoods project - it is not out of the realm of possibility at all.

The people who refuse to investigate the evidence of 9/11 cannot be considered patriotic Americans. It is all of our responsibility to at least look at the evidence and consider it - and if you look at it all and come to the conclusion that it was Bin Laden - well - whatever - I don't know personally how one could do that - but to just say "no way" based on some kind of belief that these people are Christian or inheriently good, you do yourselves and the country a great disservice. I'm sure in the days of Hitler there were the same kinds of people who loved Hitler and denied any possibility that he was out for world domination and that he was killing jews - I'm sure there were those that believed it was "just a conspiracy" by people who hated Hitler that they just made shit up about him. History will tell the tale.

Read David Ray Griffin.

[toymachines]

51. Damn Straight!

The 911 hoax and the stolen elections are major events that are usually dismissed by even well educated people. Those truths must get out to the public. I just wonder what it would take to convince them. cognitive dissonance is a motherfucker.
Peace.

[ComerPerro]

52. If I understand correctly, "WSTH" is LIHOP

They Wanted Something To Happen, so they Let It Happen On Purpose

[bigbrother05]

53. Actually has an element of both

That's why the attempt to get at it from a different angle. Goes well beyond just 9-11, that is just the most dramatic/tragic part of their MO. They push things to a breakpoint, then stand back and exclaim that "no one could have anticipated a) flying planes into buildings, b) the levees in NO would break, c) the economy would stay in the dumper, d) Harriet Miers wasn't qualified, e) there would be looting in Baghdad, ....

When they keep creating an atmosphere that encourages failure and destruction, it's time to change the Administration.

[ComerPerro]

54. Gotcha. I see what you're getting at now