If the election were today, it were a close race, and the candidates were

[mzmolly]

those listed below, who would you vote for?

Let me say that I don't think Hillary Clinton will be our nominee, but I'm tossing this about as she is getting much attention.

[mzmolly]

1. It's interesting that we have 4 votes for an unknown party?

Unless people are suggesting they'd stay home?

How can one claim the war is the end all, and not vote to prevent more?

[longship]

2. No vote.

The presumptions in the poll is:

1. Hillary and Jeb are running. Hillary hasn't said. Jeb has said, "No."

2. Hillary and Jeb will be the top of the heap in 2008. This is highly speculative.

3. The US will nominate two pro-war candidates. This is the wildest of presumptions and goes contrary to all trends and even current opinion.

[mzmolly]

3. There are many assumptions made here every day.

And Hillary is not pro-war. She urged inspections as did most Democrats.

I agree that Hillary will not be our nominee, but we do have notable people saying "I won't support her" if she is.

[Wilms]

6. You don't think Hillary will be the Nom.

But you put her up on the poll as representing the Dem party.

So what will this poll tell us?

[mzmolly]

8. I put her up in response to the "I'll never support an unpure Dem"

posts.

What this poll will tell us is if people who are opposed to PNAC will learn from history.

:hi:

[Wilms]

10. Ah. That's much clearer.

So, looking at the poll results so far, do you think it would be an idea for the Dem Leadership to learn something from history?

[mzmolly]

12. Considering the results represent 20 Americans, I don't put too much

stake in the numbers. However, it is my hope that we ALL learn from history, and prevent another Republican presidency in our quest for perfection.

Is it your suggestion that only Democrats should learn from history?

[Wilms]

13. No. Not ONLY the Dems.

But that would be a great start!

[mzmolly]

16. It would. And I hope we all learn from past mistakes.

:hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

32. And the history is, listening to mealy-mouthed DLC/GOP lite sellouts

hasn't been winning us any elections.

No, this time we need to run someone who isn't going to apologize for believing in core principles, someone who will stand up for things the MAJORITY of the party believes in (the wrongness of the Iraq war, the separation of church and state, equal rights for gays & lesbians, privacy rights and the rights of citizens to control their own bodies) and someone who isn't going to ape the positions of the other party while telling the energetic BASE "you have nowhere else to go- you better settle for just a tiny bit better than the other guy".

Uh huh. I'm a yellow dog democrat, and even I am sick of that shit. Time for some new leadership.

[mzmolly]

39. I agree with the kind of person we need to run. But we lost because

the owner of Diebold f-d with Ohio IMHO.

I don't trust the results of the last two elections, I think we won.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. I agree. But I think the results would have been unchallengeable

if we'd ran someone unafraid to take on some sacred cows.

Look, I bought ALL the noise about Kerry during the primaries- I supported the guy the whole time. In retrospect, however, I firmly believe we should have run Howard Dean.

[mzmolly]

45. As a Dean supporter from long ago, I'll accept your mea culpa.

;)

[Warren DeMontague]

74. Cool. I fully admit I was wrong.

:hi:

[longship]

7. There's some time for her to adapt.

And Hillary is not pro-war. She urged inspections as did most Democrats.

I'm writing about her current position on Iraq.

Hillary is for increasing, not decreasing, troop strength in Iraq. That's a boldly pro-Iraq war stance.

Maybe she will be changing her mind on this. I would certainly welcome it. But right now it's pretty much a straight DLC Iraq "We can't cut and run" stance. This is precisely what was being said about Viet Nam in the 1960's after which thousands more US soldiers died.

I just can't support any candidate with that position now. Those who do support it are in an ever decreasing minoority. One can only hope that public opinion will sway her and the other Dem hawks. Then, we could have more candidates with broad support which would make for an interesting nomination campaign season.

[mzmolly]

11. Keep in mind Hillary won't expand into Syria and Iran.

The PNAC Neocon's will. If only this were about Iraq and Iraq alone.

I agree with you that Hillary will adapt.

I haven't read her position on Iraq in full, so I can't comment on the specifics.

:hi:

[Wilms]

14. This thread is beginning to remind me of something.

A campaign call masquerading as a poll.

[mzmolly]

17. It's a discussion on a discussion board. I don't support Hillary Clinton

for the record.

I'm in the "play it safe with a Popular, White, Southern, Male, Married, Governor, who appeals both to the moderates and the left category."

Now, can you find someone who meets my criteria?

[Wilms]

22. Edwards is close to that.

And '08 is far away.

[mzmolly]

27. Close but I'm leary of a Senator.

He's close, but he "voted for the war" as well.

I wan't someone who did not have to go on the record on Iraq if possible. Again we're talkin "in a perfect world" here.

[Wilms]

34. Here's a link to a list of Dem govs.

http://www.democraticgovernors.org/governors

Who among them might possibilities?

[mzmolly]

40. I'll give it some thought.

Thanks for the list.

:hi:

[mzmolly]

48. How bout this guy?

http://www.democraticgovernors.org/governors/375/governor-phil-bredesen

http://www.state.tn.us/governor/About.do

Would he have mass appeal? I don't know enough about the South, but he looks good on the surface?

[longship]

26. Kathleen Sibelius, just kiddin' about the Male???

She's good, attractive, and sharp as a tack.

[mzmolly]

28. Ha!

:hi:

Well if the Republicans are found out and Americans are still rating Bush at around 30%, we may be able to open up our choices a bit. ;)

[Warren DeMontague]

46. He was never a governor

But I'm firmly convinced that THIS is our guy:

[mzmolly]

49. Me love Al Gore.

Yum yum. :hi:

I'd be jazzed if he runs again!

[Warren DeMontague]

55. Then you and I agree completely on that.

And believe me, if we were talking about the 1973 HRC, or even the 1993 HRC, I'd be all over it. But I can't abide her makeover as a pro-war hawk vis a vis Iraq. It's just too important to let slide.

[skipos]

69. Gov. Warner is very popular in the red state of VA

I think he is a possibility.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

67. Hate to break it to you.

Hillary is pro-this-war. Her multitudinous statements leave no doubt of that. Kerry, Dean and Clark have straddled the issue at various times. Dean and Clark initially, Kerry always.

Akaka (D-HI), Nay
Allard (R-CO), Yea
Allen (R-VA), Yea
Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Bayh (D-IN), Yea
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Yea
Boxer (D-CA), Nay
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Brownback (R-KS), Yea
Bunning (R-KY), Yea
Burns (R-MT), Yea
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Campbell (R-CO), Yea
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Carnahan (D-MO), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Chafee (R-RI), Nay
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Cochran (R-MS), Yea
Collins (R-ME), Yea
Conrad (D-ND), Nay
Corzine (D-NJ), Nay
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Yea
Daschle (D-SD), Yea
Dayton (D-MN), Nay
DeWine (R-OH), Yea
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Domenici (R-NM), Yea
Dorgan (D-ND), Yea
Durbin (D-IL), Nay
Edwards (D-NC), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Yea
Enzi (R-WY), Yea
Feingold (D-WI), Nay
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Fitzgerald (R-IL), Yea
Frist (R-TN), Yea
Graham (D-FL), Nay
Gramm (R-TX), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Yea
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Yea
Hatch (R-UT), Yea
Helms (R-NC), Yea
Hollings (D-SC), Yea
Hutchinson (R-AR), Yea
Hutchison (R-TX), Yea
Inhofe (R-OK), Yea
Inouye (D-HI), Nay
Jeffords (I-VT), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Yea
Kennedy (D-MA), Nay
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Nay
Levin (D-MI), Nay
Lieberman (D-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Nay
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Yea
Murray (D-WA), Nay
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea
Nickles (R-OK), Yea
Reed (D-RI), Nay
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Yea
Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea
Santorum (R-PA), Yea
Sarbanes (D-MD), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Yea
Shelby (R-AL), Yea
Smith (R-NH), Yea
Smith (R-OR), Yea
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Stevens (R-AK), Yea
Thomas (R-WY), Yea
Thompson (R-TN), Yea
Thurmond (R-SC), Yea
Torricelli (D-NJ), Yea
Voinovich (R-OH), Yea
Warner (R-VA), Yea
Wellstone (D-MN), Nay
Wyden (D-OR), Nay

[Zhade]

4. Yep. Even Republicans would think twice about voting for a war supporter.

I mean, it'd be really hard for the public, the majority of which want troops home, to say "fuck Jeb! I'm going Dem!" only to be faced with a Dem who doesn't share their earnest desire to end this madness ASAP.

Strategically, the worst thing the Dems could do is fail to recognize the anti-Iraq-war feelings prevalent in America today.

[mzmolly]

9. I have confidence that we will, and that even Hillary will come around

in the end.

She's too sympathetic to criticism of the "President" after the R's hunted Bill me thinks?

[Zhade]

21. You have far more confidence in the former Goldwater Girl than I do.

As far as I know, she's never repented for a lot of her past, like supporting the rightwing Contras.

[mzmolly]

30. Her ideology has changed. And, I think she's demonstrated that.

But, to each his own. I don't really think she'll get the nod anyhow. If she does, you'll all be hearing about the vitures of Hillary from me. ;)


:hi:

[Coastie for Truth]

5. Jeb won't run!

DR Frist did one of his web cam, remote, Terri Schiavo diagnoses. DR Frist said Jeb is a very sick man - heart murmur, possible gout and early stage Parkinsons, chronic constipation, needs complete bed rest until after the 2008 Election.

I am going to follow my mother's advice - and "Vote for a Democratic Doctor" - got it down to Howard Dean, Sidney Wolfe (Green Party), and Cyril Wecht (Dem chair of Pittsburgh PA).

[Crazy Guggenheim]

15. What's close? I assume you mean that a few votes could throw the

election to the Repukes?

[mzmolly]

18. That's what I mean.

:hi:

[Crazy Guggenheim]

19. Thank you.

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. hmmm

Yes, if that were the choice I would vote for Hillary to stop Jeb. Although I don't think Jeb will run and I hope Hillary will not be the nominee.

But, PLEASE the issue is NOT purity. If that was the issue I wouldn't be able to vote for anyone. The issue is about basic morality. Call me old fashion and square if you will. But, it is not moral and it is not right for government to be run by and for the corporate lobbyist whom both Hillary and Jeb serve so faithfully. Still since Hillary represents the left-wing of K-Street and Jeb represents the right-wing of K-Street. The difference is enough for me to vote for the one who will take our country and our world backward less fast.

Also, if you check the foreign policy statements from the DLC's so-called "Progressive Policy Institute" and read some of the mad ravings in The New Republic--you will see that the Republican Party are not the only ones with a neocon fringe. I hope for God's sakes that Hillary or anyone who ends up being the Democratic Party nominee will not be influenced by these evil mad men.

[Swamp Rat]

23. Other

Bush and Clinton are both branches of the PNAC tree. I'd rather vote for Gumby than those two.

To specify the other, I like John Conyers and Max Cleland, among others. Hell, Al Gore should run again too! He's a better alternative than any of the DLC lizards.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. As long as he stays true to himself

I'm all behind Al Gore.

[mzmolly]

31. Can you provide a link regarding Hillary's support of the PNAC agenda?

I'm talking rebuilding the entire mid east (STARTING with Iraq) to protect our oil interests and all that jazz.

:shrug:

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Just supporting the Iraq war and echoing the BIG LIE that it has ANYTHING

to do with the bogus "war on terror" is a deal breaker for me.

[mzmolly]

38. Could be. But PNAC has us going into Iran and Syria next.

That's my "deal breaker" I won't stop fighting until R's are out of office. I won't let my purity place any more people in danger.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. PNAC is going to have a hard time with that

Specifically, "them and what army?"

addendum: and "staying the course" in Iraq, as HRC would have us do, is not acceptable, either- and will lead to pointless deaths as well.

[mzmolly]

43. That's what we thought the first time around. LIHOP/MIHOP

and red alerts, have proven great motivators for those promoting war.

[Warren DeMontague]

50. So you'll split the difference with someone who only supports (supposedly)

part of the PNAC agenda- specifically, Iraq (and, again, pushes the "big lie" that it has jack diddly shit to do with the so-called "war on terror") and assume that she won't sign on to the rest of it, in time?

I'd rather have someone whose position isn't so, erm, 'nuanced' about the whole thing.

[mzmolly]

56. There is a huge difference between supporting PNAC and being lied to

and tricked into carrying out the agenda. If Dems would have supported it, Bush would not have had to lie.

[Warren DeMontague]

58. No, but it's the behavior since then

and particularly flogging the notion that Bush is 'winning the war on terror' with regards to the illegal war in Iraq (forgive me if I don't find the link to the comments right now, but they're out there) that I find particularly noxious. Voting for the IWR is not a dealbreaker, so long as events since have brought a higher level of awareness and willingness to abide by the first rule of holes.

With Hillary, I don't see that.

[mzmolly]

59. I am not familiar with her statements claiming Bush has been a success

in the war on terror?

It seems what I've gotten is a lot of paraphrasing and not any particulars.

What I recall recently are her remarks comparing Bush to Alfred E. Neuman. That doesn't sound like promoting * to me?

[Swamp Rat]

47. See your PM

:)

[Warren DeMontague]

24. I will write in the corpse of Bill Hicks n/t

[Swamp Rat]

29. Good one! And I'll add Hunter S. Thompson as VP.

... or vice versa.

[NoPasaran]

66. If we're going to be voting for stiffs...

I think it's long overdue that we elect Bobby Kennedy!

[BooScout]

35. Hilary....

Hands down. The Republicans are terrified of her. She's moved to the center in anticpation of taking the middle America vote and so far she's the only one I can see with a chance in hell of winning. She's the brains behind Bill Clinton. When she let him think...............well...........we all know what part of his anatomy he thought with.:eyes:

I grow a little weary of people here cutting her down for various ill-informed reasons. I'm as far left as I can be and I would vote for her in a heart beat. No, she's not perfect...........but she's a far sight better than the rest of the field.

[DanCa]

36. I really like Senator Clinton and have no qualms about her philosophy ,,,,

however I just don't think that she'd crack the southren boys club mentality. It is for this reason that I dont think that she'd win.
Note I will vote for her if she is the party nominee but definetly not the first choice on the list. Now maybe a s a vp candidate.

[UrbScotty]

37. Not voting for Hillary = voting for Jeb

I'd 'hold ny nose' so to speak, but almost anyone - heck, Lieberman - would do a better job than Jeb.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. The only people who are inspired by the thought of Hillary running

are bobbleheads on the right. That, alone, ought to tell you something.

[DanCa]

52. Senator Clinton will be torn into like Kerry was on votting records.

The only way I can vote for her if she is the party nominee.

[mzmolly]

53. Now now there are a few DU-ers who are genuinely excited to see her run.

And many are further excited at the thought of a Woman for President. ;)

[Warren DeMontague]

57. I'd be VERY excited by the thought of a woman as President:

Specifically, someone like this:

[mzmolly]

60. Now she's a pleasant thought!

:hi:

[welshTerrier2]

51. STOP THE WAR NOW !!

Democrats are letting their base erode by continuing to support the war in Iraq ...

yes, i think Hillary would be much better than Jeb but, no, i wouldn't vote for her given your hypothetical ... from now on, i will only vote for progressive candidates who have helped put an end to this insane war ...

if i just keep "going along", as i did with Kerry, i have no representation ... i don't require absolute compliance with my views; i require a process that gives every Democrat a real voice ... i don't believe the Party, especially Senate Dems, respects that ...

given the choice above with an ongoing war, i would either write-in a progressive Democrat or vote for a third party candidate ...

[mzmolly]

72. We'll be at this place by the next GE.

Condi Rice said we'll be in Iraq for 10 years, Dems say about 12 months. I guess those are our choices.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

54. My major problem with Hillary is I *do not* see her as a brawler.

That is someone who is willing to call it as she sees it.

[mzmolly]

61. Agreed. But I have a far bigger problem with another Republican,

specifically a Neo-Con in office.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

62. Let me restate what I meant. That is if she were nominated, I think

she *could not* take on the media and the RW barrage.

[mzmolly]

64. I agree.

And, I don't think she'll be our nominee.

[Pushed To The Left]

63. 2nd and 3rd choice will have the same result

Looks like Jeb Bush is DU's choice in this one! Don't get me wrong: I would prefer that the Democratic candidate share more of my views, but I always vote for the most progressive candidate with a chance of winning! If we want a more progressive candidate, we need to fight that battle during the primaries, not the general election!

[skipos]

68. "I vote for the most progressive candidate with a chance of winning"

That's what I say too. We should all hope to nominate the most progressive candidate that *will win the election.* If I wanted to throw my vote away on someone who wouldn't have a chance of being elected, I'd write in myself. Now THERE is a candidate I agree with about everything.

[mzmolly]

71. Good one.

" If I wanted to throw my vote away on someone who wouldn't have a chance of being elected, I'd write in myself. Now THERE is a candidate I agree with about everything."

:)

[yellowdogintexas]

65. I would not vote for Jeb Bush for dogcatcher, and I refuse to NOT

vote in a presidential election.

Besides if it got that far, I'd be damned sure I tried to keep the sleazeball Bush regime out of power, if my black cat were the nominee.

(you should all know my black cat is so dumb we call him "the blonde", no offense intended to any blondes living or dead)

[judy from nj]

70. Wes Clark

He's the one who can win, and who can get us out of this mess. Hillary would lose bad.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. Jeb (PNAC) vs Hillary (PNAC supporter) = Green for me.

Hillary can then blame the "failed insurgency" she likes to talk about.