The Democrats won NOTHING with the filibuster compromise

[Goblinmonger]

and I was one of the people saying it when it happened.

Here we are now. Bush has nominated Satan to be on the SCOTUS. The Democrats will filibuster this nomination because it sucks. The Republicans will threaten to (and just might) go nu-cu-lar because the Democrats aren't "living up to the bargain." And here we are. No further ahead than we were months ago except some of Bush's shitty appointments got through without a fight.

That deal that was made was bullshit. I certainly hope the response from the Dems this time is to tell the Repugs to "bring it on." Let's make them look like asses for once.

Oh, I forgot, the Dems don't know how to act like an opposition party.

[creeksneakers2]

1. Did caving in stop one single bad nominee from getting

approval? I remember that was part of the deal, but don't remember any actually being withdrawn.

[Goblinmonger]

2. No

The dems bent over and took it because the so feared the "nuclear" option.

[Democrats_win]

3. I can't recall any being withdrawn. Message to Dems: No Satan on Scotus

[Dudley_DUright]

5. I recall that one or two of the less bad nominees were

withdrawn, but I might be wrong.

[seabeyond]

13. and all else fails bolton bush just put in. i blame the repugs and those

that voted repug. and i will continue to blame repug until 2008 and every person that voted repug.

but..... with this thread, we have effectively made dems losers regardless of what they do here on out. damn we are good at taking us down

[bowens43]

4. There were some very bad people kept off the bench by

this deal. To say we got nothing is a great exaggeration.

[Goblinmonger]

6. Who

And Bolton got through to the UN.
And what's her name, corporate shill got put on the district court that will hear the enron case.

[bowens43]

10. William Myers and Henry Saad

[Goblinmonger]

14. And they were worse than Bolton?

[bowens43]

17. Huh? I didn't say anything about Bolton.

As I have shown, your statement, that we got nothing from the deal is wrong. An exaggeration. Exaggerations don't often help you make a point.

[Goblinmonger]

28. Two nominees were withdrawn

and a little lighter shade of evil was let through. I don't think that is an exaggeration.

[smoogatz]

18. Bolton wasn't a judicial nominee.

Totally different battle. And really, Bolton's been relegated to a relatively harmless position. Letting him fuck up the UN is a lot better than letting him continue to fuck up our national defense.

[Goblinmonger]

27. I don't think the world sees it that way

Bolton is another huge straw on the camel's back of we suck in the eyes of the world.

[smoogatz]

33. True enough.

But trust me when I say the world is better off with Bolton in NYC than in Washington.

[smoogatz]

7. And what should Reid have done, then--filibustered the circuit court

appointments?

[Goblinmonger]

9. Yes

They sucked. Why not do so? Isn't that what an opposition party is supposed to do when the President appoints completely horrible people for a job?

[smoogatz]

15. So the Republicans go nuclear from a position of strength

and Bush is free to appoint whomever he chooses for the rest of his term of office. The Senate Dems would have NO weapon in the case of a SCOTUS nominee like Alito. That's your master plan? Some friends and I have a good high-stakes poker game every week--want to sit in?

[Goblinmonger]

20. What weapon do we have now?

If we filibuster, they will go nuclear and he still gets Altio.

[smoogatz]

32. Not necessarily.

The Republicans are considerably weaker now than they were six months ago--DeLay, Frist and the White House are all embroiled in scandal, Bush's agenda is largely in disarray, Bush's polling is terrible and the Republican congress's numbers are even worse. Democrats looked reasonable on the Roberts and Miers noms--and it was Republicans, not Dems, who declined to give Meirs an "up-or-down" vote. If the Republicans try the nuclear option now, Democrats in both houses would (should, anyway) go into full-on obstrct and delay mode--meaning that no Republican bill would be likely to move through congress before the midterm elections, at the very least. That would be a castrating blow to Bush and the Republicans. They'd get their judge, but that's all they'd get.

[Goblinmonger]

35. I hope you are right

I just think that we will look just as bad now. I still hope they do it, though.

[smoogatz]

39. I think I'm right about what Reid is up to--

whether the Dem rank and file will do their part is always another story. Like herding cats.

[Goblinmonger]

41. I hope Reid can do it.

I see you are in Wisconsin; maybe we can celebrate with a Guiness if he actually gets it done. I'd buy for doubting him.

[smoogatz]

42. Guinness sounds great.

If Reid can block the Alito appointment, I'll buy the second round, and a shot of Jameson's to go with it.

[Burning Water]

45. I disagree.

The Bush administration has been weakened, no doubt. But they have, with this outrageous appointment, done a tremendous yeoman's job of strengthening their position vis-avis their fanatic base. Old scores will be forgotten, and the conservatives will come together to try to push this nomination through.

A huge mother-of-all-battles (should I have said that?) fight is coming up. This may be the breaking point. The right welcomes it, and I think we should, too. It is a chance to educate the sheeple about the way the country is heading. It is a chance to stop the BFEE machine in its tracks. It is also a chance to totally lose everything which is why the right welcomes the fight. They think they can win. I think we can. If, and only if, we recognize the opportunity and the risk, and act accordingly. I'm not sure we do, yet, but we will. We will.

[Walt Starr]

8. Sure they did.

The battle was put off until now, and they're in a stronger position now. All that remains to be seen is whether they have the courage to flex their newfound muscles.

[Goblinmonger]

12. Maybe

I would accept the arugment that Bush having a lower approval rating is a little better, but I think overall we are in a worse position. If we filibuster this asshole, then the Repugs will just shake their heads and say "Look at those crazy liberals flip-flopping on their deal" and the people that elected those Repugs will nod their heads.

[Walt Starr]

21. I will agree with you if there is no filibuster on Alito

Of course, no filibuster on Alito and I'm done with the Democratic Party.

It's time for them to step up to the plate or to step down forever.

[Goblinmonger]

26. I agree with you completely.

But the test of whether we won anything with the deal is whether they go nuclear or not.

[Walt Starr]

31. I think it's a foregone conclusion the radical right will go nuclear

and the Dems will have to keep their vow to shut down the Senate if that happens.

[Goblinmonger]

36. Agreed.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. Perhaps you should learn what you're talking about first.

The Gang of 14 was NOT DONE BY DEM LEADERSHIP! Your ignorance on this issue is astounding.

[Goblinmonger]

16. Nothing like an ad hom to prove your point.

Democrats made this happen. Did Howard Dean call them up and tell them to do it? No. I don't think I said, "The Democratic leadership made a big mistake." I said that the deal got us nowhere.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

19. You said, precisely "DEMOCRATS WON NOTHING..."

Which is to say Democrats, as a party, were seeking something with the agreement. Which is to say your criticism should be reserved and narrowly tailored to the Gang of 14, which it most definitely is not.

[Goblinmonger]

24. I think you make a pretty big leap there

The result for the Democrats was not the victory that it was presented as. I was not addressing the process but the outcome.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

25. Explain your last line then

"Oh, I forgot, the Dems don't know how to act like an opposition party."

[Goblinmonger]

30. OK

1. They don't have enough cohesion to make sure that this shitty deal didn't take place.
2. If they can't get their act together on this, when will they.
3. = no opposition party.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

38. Rebuttal

1) Republicans, as the majority party, didn't have enough cohesion to prevent the deal that they hated even more than we did.
2) This is important, and perhaps you haven't noticed this before, but a political party is NOT a binding thing. Party members are not slaves and are free to make any deals they want. Unless they are YOUR elected officials, you have no right to make ANY demands on them whatsoever.
3) We are not the opposition party, we are the DEMOCRATIC PARTY. We do not exist for the sole purpose of throwing up roadblocks. Do not adhere to the obstructionist label Republicans put on you.

[Goblinmonger]

40. Valid

but,
1) Yes. But my argument is that they got the much better deal out of all of this. And the cohesion will be better this time around for the Repugs. I hope it is the same for the Dems.
2) Yes, I remember that from my grad class on political parties, thank you. So we should just toss it all to the wind and hope for the best?
3) Opposition doesn't = roadblocks for the sake of roadblocks. Wouldn't we be better off if our mindset was one of actually trying to do something to stop the opposing party that is in power from running roughshod over the country rather than trying to "position" ourselves to hopefully win the next election (fingers crossed and eyes closed tightly)?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

43. I don't agree with your first point

They didn't get a better deal out of this at all. They held ALL of the power in the situation, and 7 of their Senators took that power and said "Here, take it." Are you kidding me? How did we lose in that in any way?

And yeah, we need to fight. I hope we do filibuster Scalito. And we have fought on a lot of things. But too many people here seem to think we have to fight on every single bill and every single nominee, and that's flat out idiotic. We can't and shouldn't do that. You fight the fights worth fighting. You don't just fight for the fuck of it. In my opinion, this one is worth fighting. Miers wasn't. Roberts wasn't.

[ThoughtCriminal]

22. Remember - media blames Dems for bad * appointments

Somehow, Brownie's appointment at FEMA became the Democrats fault because Lieberman did not oppose him during the hearings.:eyes:

[Shrek]

23. You are incorrect

As this post make abundantly clear, Roe v Wade is safe and the nominee will be filibustered.

[Goblinmonger]

34. A couple thoughts

1. If this guy gets through, Roe ain't safe from shit.
2. Frist will grow a new pair if there is a filibuster. We will hear the same arguments about going nuclear and some of the people that "de-nutted" Frist the first time around were saying on Sunday that they won't do it this time around. Remember, it is his ilk that want this guy.

[EndElectoral]

29. Exactly...now it' either grow some testicles or we've a monarchy

[Goblinmonger]

37. I'm with you

I just don't think things are overly different now (with the exception of polling numbers--which I admit might make a big difference). We just delayed the inevitable.

[Burning Water]

44. I totally agree.

The RW wants a fight. I think the LW should, too. Let's find out which way the American people really want to go with the Court. If we win, great. If we lose, at least we'll know that it is time to abandon ship and emigrate to Canada or Europe. I'm thinking warm Mediterranean climes, myself. But someplace where we can carry on the fight against the American hegemon without the constant fear of the thought police breaking down our doors.