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A Vermonter speaks: Why Dean is the only Democrat I can support

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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:17 AM
Original message
A Vermonter speaks: Why Dean is the only Democrat I can support
He is unique in many ways. I have the advantage of being a Vermonter, so I have personally lived under his leadership for over a decade. I have seen what this man can accomplish with my own two eyes...even while having to contend with a Republican majority House. First of all, he has united Vermont. Who else could have managed to get both Democrats and Republicans to support Civil Unions? Who else could turn far left liberals into budget balancers over tax and spenders? Who else has been able to motivate Democrats and Republicans to sit down once and sort out their differences and come up with a course of action both can live with minus all the pork? Who else has been a true champion for health care for the uninsured...making it a reality for 99% of the children and 92% of adults he leads? Who else has invested in young kids with the forethought of prevention? Who else has already stood up against big drug companies and demanded that they report every "gift" they dole out that exceeds a $20 value? Who actually endorsed a non-profit groups efforts to get prescription drugs from Canada? Who has shown anywhere near the same level of political courage that Dean has shown? The man is selfless. He's NOT in this race for what he can personally gain. He's in it for what he can GIVE to US. That is what is special and different about Howard Dean and that's why he deserves our respect and support. A polician who is honestly in it for the people is a rarity. They don't come along very often, and especially not at a time when we so desperately need it. I'm supporting Dean not for Dean. I'm supporting Dean for you and everyone else who hasn't been as fortunate as I have to benefit personally from his wonderful leadership. Everyone should take an honest look into his accomplishments and where he stands on the issues. You won't find anyone more sincere or with more integrity than Howard Dean. He wants to give the American people all he has to give, and that's not something the voters should pass up in favor of someone who just wants another political notch on their belt who won't change anything at all.
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mojo2004 Donating Member (94 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hopefully Dean can...
turn his campaign around. I have a hard time getting excited about Kerry.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. He can turn it around if people like you help
Anyone who doesn't like Kerry and can't get excited about him should contribute to Dean and support him. That's all he needs is for the voters to believe in him just as much as he believes in you. The power belongs to the people. The question now is...are they going to take that power and change things or are they going to let the extablishment steam roll over them? The choice is yours. I hope the supporters of other candidates will consider Dean as at least their second choice. He has worked hard for us and if it weren't for Dean, no one but Kucinich and Sharpton would be criticizing Bush, and it wouldn't be getting any kind of media coverage. Dean has done us all a huge favor by telling the truth and letting the chips fall where they may.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. Without Dean there would have been no campaign or debate.
Dean '04...
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
67. Why should people continue to throw good money after bad?
Kerry 2004

ABB
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Because Dean is the best candidate
and Kerry is unelectable because he's an uber-liberal from "Taxachussetts". Kerry is 10 times more liberal than Dean is. He also keeps dissing the south. At least Dean has the balls to not cede ANY state. It's about damn time, too. Kerry is the same old same old "do-nothing" Washington Insider. If people want REAL change in this country before it's too late to get it, Dean is the one who will ensure they get it.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. Two words: President Bush
I do not want to hear that term for the next four years. It is intolerable and dangerous to place that man back in the White House. I appreciate the passion of your support for Howard Dean, and do not disagree about his qualities and record. But this is another disturbing post from Dean supporters who say that the only Dem they will support is Dean. I, too, was disappointed when I worked in my first campaign, for Gene McCarthy in 1968. Bobby Kennedy's death was a further outrage. Then we all turned up our noses at Hubert Humphrey, and what did we get? Richard Nixon. The stakes are too great - even greater now than in 1968 - to sit on the sidelines should your candidate not make it. Don't let your passion for Dean deteriorate into bitterness should he fail to win the nomination. George Bush is a unique danger to this nation. He must be stopped. We will need to pull together whoever the nominee is. We can't sit this one out.
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Another two words: Supreme Court
I want a President who will fight to maintain rights...civil rights, reproductive rights, educational rights, health rights. I fear what will happen if Bush is allowed another four years!

I'm thrilled that the candidates have pulled in voters who have been disinterested, uninvolved, and perhaps apathetic. I think that's a great thing. I also think the Democratic Party is certainly the party of "the big tent". We don't all think the same, lookt he same, live the same, love the same, but we all know what's important.

This is the most important election in my lifetime. I don't intend to throw my vote away.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Thanks! The Supreme Court alone is enough.
I agree with everything you said, including that this is the most important election of my lifetime - and I go back to 1968!
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. That's exactly why Kerry can't be the nominee
After 9/11, how do you think it is going to sit with people when Bush starts putting out ads with Kerry on film doing things many will consider to be anti-American? They have nothing on Dean! They can't even attack his record because it was very moderate and successful. Kerry is the biggest risk of all!
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I applaud your support for your candidate
And your arguments are wonderful.

But, saying that you won't vote is a vote for continuing the status quo of a Bush presidency. That's the point I was trying to make. I wasn't in the least bit arguing the merits of your candidate.

This election is too important to sit out, I think.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. What "anti-American" things? His opposition to Vietnam?
His opposition to the Vietnam War was correct. Whoever is the nominee will be relentlessly and viciously attacked, Howard Dean included. Please continue to advocate for Mr. Dean; I only ask that you rethink your position of Dean or nobody, leaving Bush in office for (at least) another four years.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #24
50. His activities against Vietnam can be easily portrayed
in a VERY bad light. It's too risky. Combine that with some of Kerry's voting record and Bush and Rove with have a heyday, and mark my words, it will be FAR worse than anything they could say about Dean. I wish people would wake up and think. Sure they're calling Dean a liberal too, but it's very easy to prove that Dean isn't too liberal for moderate Americans. He's got a 12 year Governor's record that will be impressive to everyone, regardless of party. He's done many, many great things for the people of Vermont.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. "Too risky?" He was right on the war!
I didn't get into this to defend Kerry, but given your posts, now I will. The Vietnam War was a horrible mistake. I respected Kerry when as a young man he had the guts to be a leader in Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Go see "Fog and War," a movie out about Robert McNamara (you can look him up). If we have to defend the Vietnam War to pick a candidate, I shall have no part of it. I believe most Americans know that war was a mistake, at best. With all due respect, you are wearing blinders. I do not dispute Dean's fine record, but don't believe for a minute that Rove and Bush won't come after him like they will after any Dem. I have been undecided, but your rigid posting is pushing me hard, my friend.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. It doesn't matter what you or I think about Vietnam
But it does matter how it's going to be used against Kerry to make him look unpatriotic and anti-American. Look at how the media has taken Dean's screaming over a loud crowd and used it against him. What on earth do you think they are going to do with images of Kerry protesting, throwing medals, writing a book with photos of anti-war protestors blowing their nose on the flag? It doesn't matter how right or wrong Kerry was on the Vietnam war. What matters is the ability of Bush to use it against him to destroy his credibility as a candidate. I don't want to take the chance on that one. Not against Bush and Rove and not this time.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. Yes, it does matter. It matters a lot.
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 04:20 PM by faygokid
I don't know how old you are, but opposing the Vietnam War is not going to be a negative in this campaign. You have gone from a thoughtful, if wrongheaded, post about the good qualities of Dean and why you simply just can't vote for anyone else, to fearing what Rove and Bush are going to do to a candidate who was a leading voice against the War in Vietnam. Let them use John Kerry's opposition to that war against him. Those of us old enough to remember know that it simply won't work. You support your candidate; fine. You can't bring yourself to vote for anyone else, fine, enjoy your self righteousness in a second Bush term. But don't tell me that Kerry's opposition to the War in Vietnam is why you can't support him, because I don't buy it. This is starting to look like a LaRouche movement, for God's sake. I will say it again: I like Howard Dean. I like what he has done. I like what he says. But he is not God; he must face the political process like all the other candidates. I would support Howard Dean 100% against the evil that is George W. Bush. Knock Kerry if you must, and vote for George W. Bush if you are in this snit, if you must, but don't think that Kerry's stance against the war was not principled, and that attacking him for being against that war will work for the GOP. It won't.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. No, it doesn't matter
The only way Kerry stands any kind of chance in winning is with a lot of swing voters. The Democratic party is going to lose a lot of votes if Dean isn't the nominee.

As for Kerry's anti-war stance after Vietnam...it is NOT what Democrats think about what the media will be saying about it that matters, it's what swing voters think about it that matters, because those are the votes Kerry will NEED to stand any chance at winning. Those voters are very, very likely to have a very negative reaction when they hear that Kerry was hanging out with people who blew their noses on our flag. If you want to bury your head in the sand and not take this seriously, it's your choice, but I'm telling you exactly what will happen if Kerry is the nominee.
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
41. "They have nothing on Dean!"
Except:

- He admitted to having panic attacks while serving as governor.

- He offended African-Americans with his Confederate flag comments.

- He offended Christians with his attempt to inject religion into his campaign.

- He offended Jews by suggesting that the U.S. should be totally "neutral" with regard to the Israeli/Palestinian issue.

- He baffled nearly everyone by suggesting that Osama bin Laden deserves a "fair trial."

- He called for honest, open gov't while simultaneously locking his own records in a vault for ten years.

- He suggested that Bush knew about plans for 9/11 and did nothing, then retracted this claim when reporters asked him about it.

- He suggested that Iraq was better off under Saddam Hussein.

- He joked about his son's arrest for burglary.

- He kept his wife hidden away until the last days of his campaign.

- He screamed on national television after losing Iowa.

- He claims to be a fiscal conservative yet wasted $40 million in Iowa and New Hampshire, losing both contests by a wide margin.

The fact is that the Republicans have an enormous amount of stuff to use against Dean should he win the nod. I wouldn't be surprised if Karl Rove dreams about running against him.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Oh, Dear God
I thought I had heard all the most ridiculous spin on Dean, but this takes the cake. Would help if it were at least accurate.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #41
53. It's all spin, not truth


- He admitted to having panic attacks while serving as governor.

He hyperventilated upon hearing he had just become governor due to the death of Snelling. That's hardly an unacceptable reaction to such a situation.

- He offended African-Americans with his Confederate flag comments.

No he didn't. His opponents misrepresented what he said, used sickening race baiting and all Dean was saying was that both black and white people in the south care about the same things and have the same concerns and needs. He is right.

- He offended Christians with his attempt to inject religion into his campaign.

It's offensive to Christians to discuss religion? I guess that's why they rise up against their ministers for giving sermons. This one is just a silly claim, period.

- He offended Jews by suggesting that the U.S. should be totally "neutral" with regard to the Israeli/Palestinian issue.

You better tell his wife and kids that they are supposed to find him offensive. Dean has the most fair and reasonable position on Middle East peace of all the candidates. He has good things to say about both Israeli citizens and Palestinian citizens...and he knows most people there want peace and that it's just a few people on either side who cause all the problems. He wants to fix it.

- He baffled nearly everyone by suggesting that Osama bin Laden deserves a "fair trial."

Why? Isn't our country based on the premise of our constitution? Doesn't our constitution dictate that everyone get fair trials? Don't we all want all the facts? How do we get the facts if we just catch criminals and execute them without a trial? Personally, I'm baffled at how John Kerry can be viewed as Presidential when he shuns our constitution in such a way...even if it involves Osama bin Laden.

- He called for honest, open gov't while simultaneously locking his own records in a vault for ten years.

His policies and decisions are all open. The only things that are sealed are letters written to him by private citizens and others who wrote to him for whatever reason. A lawsuit was filed asking that his records be opened and he chose not to file an answer. That means the court gets to sort it out. Those records appropriate to be opened will be opened by a judge, at his or her discretion.

- He suggested that Bush knew about plans for 9/11 and did nothing, then retracted this claim when reporters asked him about it.

Not true. He said there were all kinds of rumors going around, including that particular rumor, which he also said that he didn't believe. He said he didn't believe it in the same statement.

e suggested that Iraq was better off under Saddam Hussein.

No, he said that WE are no safer with Saddam gone, and we aren't. He also said Iraq people had a higher standard of living before Saddam was taken out, which is true. Our bombing has destroyed electricity and infrastructure. People are without power, water and food. Dean is right.

H joked about his son's arrest for burglary.

Actually, his son was sitting in the car and didn't actually play an active role in the failed attempt by his friends to steal some alcohol. A police officer approached him to ask what he was doing sitting in the car and he told the officer the entire truth, including that his friends were in the process of stealing alcohol. He did the right thing. Also, Dean didn't "joke" about it. He immediately went home and dealt with the issue.

e kept his wife hidden away until the last days of his campaign.

"Kept"? Excuse me, but Judy Dean is hardly "kept". She is a busy doctor who doesn't have the time to be an armpiece. Her husband also respects her too much to treat her like some political Barbie doll. That's a good thing.

e screamed on national television after losing Iowa.

Actually, he did scream...in an attempt to be loud enough so the roaring crowd of his supporters could hear him. The media used the audio that filtered out the crowd noise. If you hear the full audio you can barely even hear Howard Dean.

He claims to be a fiscal conservative yet wasted $40 million in Iowa and New Hampshire, losing both contests by a wide margin.

He wouldn't have lost either if Kerry weren't calling Dean supporters and suggesting that Dean isn't electable because his wife is a Jew, among other nasty and disgusting things. Oh, and let's not forget the robo-calling, which I am convinced Kerry is behind as well.


Now, what can the GOP use against Dean again?
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
57. well, we won't find out that for sure uneless/untill the court
orders him to open his records.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Dean is the most solid candidate we have
For starters, if you look at his record, he is the SAFEST candidate to run. He's not a Northeastern liberal, not by any stretch of the imagination. When Bush and Rove look at his record they are not going to find anything to rip him to shreds over. They might try Civil Unions, but Dean is absolutely masterful in silencing any criticism about that.

Now let's look at Kerry. His anti-war activities after Vietnam is going to be used to make him look like an uber-liberal whack job. His voting record is going to be picked apart and used to prove that he IS an uber-liberal. His military service means nothing in elections. McCain had a far better record and Bush beat the bejesus out of him. Gore was a verteran and he didn't win by enough votes to keep Bush from being able to cheat.

Dean cannot be painted as anti-gun...but Kerry can and will be. That's going to kill him in the south and west. Dean has actually balanced a budget and delivered health care and a drug benefit for seniors long before those in Washington finally made a half-assed attempt to address the issue, and it's a horrible, horrible bill. Everytime Kerry speaks, he steals more of Dean's message. Edwards is doing the same thing. If you like what either one of them have been saying as of late you should be aware that they weren't saying a lot of that stuff until they heard Howard Dean saying it.

Did you know that a DU member who was working in one of the NH Dean campaign offices knows full well that Kerry operatives stole Dean's list of NH supporters? Did you know that a documentary crew got a Kerry worker on tape making calls to Dean supporters that were extremely offensive? Kerry didn't win Iowa and NH because everyone likes him best. He won because he played dirty and cheated. Is that really the kind of person we want to replace Bush with? Talk about going fron the frying pan to the fire.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Wow, you rock. :)
You should be a speaker for Dean on the road, hehe.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. This is the tragedy
At first dean even complained he would not get a hearing on his proven credentials and abilities. Then I think his campaign ran away with his image and his solid case never got out. He eclipsed himself in the rush to shine and kept on bluffing it out(which only the GOP is allowed to do all the time). Governors Clinton and Carter had tight reins on their campaigns, had deep but manageable problems but never lost their footing. I always had the gut feeling the Trippi/Dean thing was an uncomfortable fit and the endorsements(all by remarkable old losers) had trouble with the focus lens too.

Running counter establishment plus as the wise governor to get attention proved too unstable, regardless of the symbolic gaffes Dean got into because of that. Might have worked, but they gambled all on the first roll and maybe he had to, but more faith in the whole Dem electorate would have been better.

As for the "dirty tricks" that cuts a lot of ways, namely one: what do you think the GOP will do in November? or maybe has done already?
Everyone brings that factor up afterward, but realistically I don't think they are the only reason a candidate falls. If it deflates a campaign, was it a balloon all along? Iowa caucuses by the way were a very bad place to test a fledgling organization for an Easterner.
Dean should have gone low key there, but that is all debatable hindsight. Maybe he had no choice. If so, that speaks volumes about his own assessment of real electability without immediate frontrunner MO.
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
35. Those are very serious allegations
I hope you have something with which to back them up.

If there is proof, you don't think they would be all over the airwaves and all over the newspapers?

Why hasn't the Governor himself made those charges? I think it is because there is no proof, just really nasty rumors.

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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
64. ...except that Dean's campaign is on the ropes and he can't win so far
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 04:51 PM by zulchzulu
You can believe what you will about how Dean is the "safest" candidate if you wish.

Voters so far are not buying it and polls show that they continue to not buy it.

As for your charges, surely you can back them up. Like Dean's candidacy, I'm not convinced.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
48. fear
will kill us in 2004.

it killed us in 2002.

Dont be afraid of Bush.
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bigendian Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. A very nice post.
Continue to support "your" candidate. Please do not attribute bad motives to the others by more statements like:



"He wants to give the American people all he has to give, and that's not something the voters should pass up in favor of someone who just wants another political notch on their belt who won't change anything at all."


Putting a shine on a candidate while tarnishing the loyal opposition is a tactic unworthy of us.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. I firmly believe that Kerry is out for the notch
I also have reason to believe that he has done some very underhanded things to sabotage Dean's campaign. I firmly believe that we need to shine the light on that kind of bad behavior. I can't support him if he is the nominee. I could probably vote for Edwards if I had to, and maybe even Clark or Lieberman. But I can't and won't vote for Kerry. Not after his campaign stole from Dean's NH office. That's totally unacceptable.
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bigendian Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
28. The "notch" is what everyone wants.
Ambition drives this whole thing.
I was impressed with Dean's policies (from the website) but hold the opinion that his repeal of all tax cuts would not fly with the average voter who will not pay any attention to the race until maybe six weeks (I'm being generous) before the election.
Deal breaker.
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
5. Bad subject line
You've explained why you support Dean, but not why he is the only Democrat you support; you've said why you like Dean, but not why you are resigned to 4 more years of BushCo if Dean is not the nominee.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
7. A thousand words which have only one meaning:
"If Dean is not the nominee, I intend to enable Bush by denying his opponent a vote, thus doing my small part to make sure that no Dean-like policies will be implemented over the next four years."

All those kids you talk about and I sure hope you change you mind.
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. I will not, and I'm no kid.
I have voted in every election for the past 30 years. But I will not vote for the Democratic party's annointed candidate, in fact I wil leave the party if Dean is not the nominee. I refuse, you see, to be bullied, threatened, shamed or manipulated. If Bush gets another four years the blood will be on Democratic party's hands for the political assasination of Howard Dean. Not mine.
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Dark Star Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. Interesting hyperbole.
Sounds like Nader.

Unfortunately, now is in fact the time to be practical.

As people have mentioned, the judiciary alone is enough, IMHO, to vote for any democratic nominee should my choice not become the candidate.

I'm very sorry everyone does not realize Bush is the problem...he needs to go...then, we can and will get into heavy discussions.

However, the blood will NOT be on the Democratic party's hands if Democrats refuse to vote for anyone except their first choice!
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #26
45. The blood will be on Democratic party's hands
because of what they did to Dean.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. If Dean doesn't get the nomination
he can take much credit for steering the direction of the debate on the issues that have so far shaped this year's election cycle.
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bigendian Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. That's right.
Dean framed the debate and then Gore's endorsement lit a fire under everyone else's ass! Bravo!
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Of course he can
ALL of the candidates have added to the discourse in this extremely important election. I have said before, and will say again...a 1 candidate Democratic campaign would have been a very BAD thing for our party.

I am becoming more and more disturbed, however, by those who are becoming more and more strident about Howard Dean being the ONLY Democrat they CAN support.

A couple of months ago, there were several polls here and several accusations made of non-Dean supporters that we would actually vote for Bush rather than see Dean elected. Those have stopped, because they were proved to be so completely off the wall. But now, more and more, we are seeing posts that many of those same people will go to a third party candidate or sit out the election if Howard Dean is not the candidate. Isn't that the same as casting a vote for Bush?
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. I'm not a Democrat, I'm an Independent
I vote based on the individual candidate, not the party. Dean is the only one I believe can fix the mess Bush has made because he has experience cleaning up after irresponsible Republican leaders. He did it in Vermont. Snelling had his good qualities, but he wasn't responsible with money. Dean came in and cleaned house. He's the only one running who can save us from our corrupt government. He's the only one willing to stand up and clean house. If we don't get it done now, we may never get another chance.
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D G Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. But how can you prefer Bush over any other candidate?
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 11:17 AM by D G
You don't think ANY of the others are qualified to be president at all?

Edited to add: I mean other Democratic candidates and any other candidate that may be running (Independent, etc.)
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polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. So you are telling us that you prefer
to lose this country to the dangerous element now in power than to vote for anyone other than Howard Dean.....!
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. That's exactly the kind of threat
that won't work. The Dems don't get to install a Bush enabler and then hold Bush over our heads.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
69. And how is that "threat" worse than a NBD threat?
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #69
73. It's not a threat, it's a promise
Dean is who I'm voting for in November, whether he's on the ballot or not. If his name isn't on it, I'll be writing it in, period. This is how things work...if the Democratic party wants my vote, they have to earn it. :shrug:
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NewHampster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
11. Dean is my candidate Period
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Enjolras Donating Member (851 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Mine too
though I would settle for Kerry. I'm not part of the ABB crowd because I'm so tired of voting for just the lesser of 2 evils. I definitely will not settle for Lieberman or Edwards. (Maybe in the VP slot, but even then, I have to hold my nose)
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
21. Hear Hear!
Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean! Dean!
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Anwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
46. YEeah!!
DEAN! :toast:
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edzontar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
27. My 2 cents: Kerry's antI-Vietnam war activities are his BEST point
If he showed the kanunes and moral courage today that he showed then, he would have voted against the IWR, PATRIOT, and the rest, and would have earned my enthusiastic support.

He did not, however, as we all know. and his "explanations" of the IWR vote have been profoundly boring, unconvincing, and futile.

So now, in the general, if we aew so unfortunate that Kerry is our candidate, I will vote for him, but without any enthusiasm or joy.

And after he loses, as I fear he wil, all bets will be off between me and the DLC-party.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
29. I am still wondering
What happened to all those independent swing voters who were supposed to throw their support behind Dean and instead voted for Kerry in the primary? Perhaps NH is not as similar after all.
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XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I'm still wondering, too.
:shrug:

I thought Dean would have at least won Dixville Notch?

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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
30. Actually Gray Davis was 10 times more accomplished than Dean
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 11:49 AM by nothingshocksmeanymo
as a governor and was governing during HARD TIMES. Anyone can balance a budget in one of the smaller wealthier states in the union during good times.

The developments he signed off on behind closed doors while locking out other environmental concerns remind me of the manner in which George Bush has governed. His hidden Gubernatorial records remind me of George Bush's hidden records.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
31. Luckily, we will beat Bush without you.
:hi:
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Ramsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
36. Great testimonial
This is the vibe I get from Dean as well. Thank you for your eye-witness opinion.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
38. What a wonderful testament to Dean KK. I fully agree he's one of a kind
too bad most of America is to ingorant to realize it right now.
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D G Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Dean may be ahead of his time
and calling other people "ignorant" for not supporting him now is ensuring that his time will never come.
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MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. "to ingorant "
Umm, okay.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. lol
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
40. "First of all, he has united Vermont"
What? Dean won his 2000 re-election by a tiny margin and was almost subject to impeachment hearings when the Progressives in the legislature wanted to revolt. And most Republicans did NOT support civil unions. If anything, Dean did more to divide Vermont than any governor in years. IIRC, he even had to wear a bullet-proof vest at one point because he was actually getting death threats.

BTW, paragraphs are our friends.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. Vermont was about 70% opposed to Civil Unions
Because of Dean, they favor them by 70%. Dean united Vermont's politicians so that they can actually work together and accomplish things. I don't see anyone else in the race having that ability.

If you don't like my lack of paragraphs in the first post then don't read it.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
42. And KK hits one out of the park!
Well said, as only one who has first hand knowledge of Governor Dean in the Executive Branch can say it!
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
43. Whats the population of Vermont again
personal anecdotes from the 13 or 14 people who live in Vermont do not persuade me as to whether Dean can run the entire country. I found it laughable when you say he has united Vermont. Hahaha...like the divisions in Vermont are anything like the divisions in the country today. And look at how well Dean has united his party. Dean is a uniter in the Bush vein of uniters.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
58. You know what...look at the politicians Vermont sends to Washington
You can piss and moan all you want about how small Vermont is, but I've never heard ANYONE complain about the politicians this state gives the country. Vermonters can hold their heads high and be proud of the politicians we elect. We're very consistent about it, too. Somehow I doubt that you can say the same about wherever you happen to live. Oh yeah...and our state isn't in debt and falling apart either. Dean is to thank for building up a surplus for that, too.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
47. Too bad for you. Dean couldn't handle the heat and pull through.
Kerry and Edwards did when both their candidacies were declared dead and irrelevant.

Real deals pull through.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. Wrong again blm. Dean was pulling back up in NH
If Dean had had another week, he would have beaten Kerry.

MSNBC polls showed that voters preferred Dean's policies to Kerry but Kerry sold himself better on electibility. The exit Polls also showed that most of those who had made a decision last year supported Dean, most of those who made their decision the week after Iowa chose Kerry, and most of those who made up their minds within 3 days of the NH Primary split between Kerry and Dean. Dean was on the rise again, but he ran out of time.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
74. The DLC establishment is hard to beat. Revolution is a difficult game to
play. Dean runs against the DLC and the repubs. Many people are comfortable with a known non-quantity like Kerry.

Dean '04
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
51. It would have been nice to use this tone earlier

but all this Nietzschean superman behavior and triumphalism on part his supporters was unsustainable. It is also incompatible with liberalism.

I don't concede the claim of integrity to a man, or his supporter, who calls people with longer records of achievement and commitment 'Bush lite'. Sincerity at the time, fine. Integrity, only if you debase the term. People who unravel in front of the cameras by definition don't have the inner unity the term presupposes.

As for that clever claim about his competitors, that they "don't want to change anything at all", it will depend on whether you are talking about your own feeling of empowerment, a Cultural Revolution among Democrats, or the actual accomplishment of things in Washington. The former two are all yours to claim. The latter, I think the consensus around here is that Dean would be worse in his dealings with a Republican Congress than e.g. Kerry. Kerry would also be able to get Congress retaken in '06, a thing no one has expressed any confidence about concerning Dean. Now that would be the change The People need, is it not?


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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
61. Thanks for this direct appeal

Lots of info.
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adamrsilva Donating Member (636 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
62. Dean SAVED the Democrats
Dean looked like a broken man at the debate. His frontrunner status was taken away, his money gone, his
support hanging by a thread... After having risen so far to the top from so little, that can only be all the more devastating. I guess it goes to show that the grassroots just can't compete anymore.

It makes me sad, and angry. The fact of the matter is
Dean has energized the Democrats, and energized this campaign, and
given them a real shot at recapturing the White House. But because of a few "gaffes" and the constant pounding by a media as determined to bring him down as they were to put him up, and the theft of his issues by the other candidates, his campaign is suddenly imploding. And this question of "electibility makes" me fucking crazy...
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. You are right, and thank you Dean, but that doesn't clinch it.
I am so grateful to Howard Dean for the butt kicking he has given the Dems, especially after the abomination of the 2002 election "strategy" ("yes, we love George too!"). He may not win the nomination, but he has provided an inestimable public service with his wake up call. His fall makes me sad, too. Remember, though, this isn't Gerald Ford or Bob Dole in the White House. Sad only goes so far. Bush is by far the most dangerous president in American history (sorry, Tricky Dick). Get over it, and work to get him out of there. I got over Gene McCarthy in 1968; we ended up with Richard Nixon thanks to the purity of our cause. Don't let it happen again.
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auntpattywatty Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. He saved the Democratic party, and if he is not our nominee, the party will
sink back into oblivion.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Then work very, very hard for him.
He is not the only Dem in the race. He is not the Savior. He is a great man who has performed a great service. Best get to work. No party or movement can or should depend on one person. You put too much on him.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
68. The drug bill Dean passed
Was a bogus bill that did little. It was a bill passed in order to get around the fact than he vetoed a real bill designed to stop the pharmaceitical companies from gouging the VSCRIPT program:

It took real courage for Dean to take 6,000 dollars in campaign contributions from the phamaceutical companies, and then veto significant legislation three dats later:

MARCELLA LANDELL, et al., Plaintiffs, NEIL RANDALL, et al., Plaintiffs, and VERMONT REPUBLICAN STATE COMMITTEE, Plaintiff v. WILLIAM H. SORRELL, et al., Defendants, and VERMONT PUBLIC INTEREST RESEARCH GROUP, et al., Defendant-Intervenors
Docket No. 2:99-cv-146
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF VERMONT
August 10, 2000, Decided
August 10, 2000, Filed


Reports also described allegations that Governor Dean vetoed a pharmacy bill after collecting $ 6,000 in campaign contributions from drug companies

The influence of out-of-state donations: "Outside money is one of Howard Dean's specialties. Of the $ 312,290 the governor raised for his 1996 election, 65 percent came from out-of-state contributors: labor unions, Washington lawyer-lobbyists, the health care industry, to name a few of the special interests." n13 For the 1994 election "Dean, for example, received more money from major pharmaceutical manufacturers during the reporting period ($ 11,000) thin he did from people and companies located in Burlington ($ 10,460)." n14 One editorial said, "it's no mystery why out-of-state contributors pumped hundreds of thousands of dollars into Vermont campaigns. ... They're trying to buy influence. But the cost is public trust."



Bryan Pfeiffer, Dean Angry About Pharmacy Veto Criticism, News Story, Rutland Herald, June 16, 1994


http://www.brookingsinstitution.org/dybdocroot/gs/cf/headlines/cases/LandellvSorrell.DOC

The full story of Dean's sel out of the state to "Big Pill cna be found at:

Challenging Pharmaceutical Industry Political Power in Maine and Vermont Ramón Castellblanch San Francisco State University

Abstract A comparison of the Vermont and Maine cases of attempting to control pharmaceutical prices in the year 2000 shows that the Maine legislators were more successful in challenging pharmaceutical industry political power. This comparison shows that challenging the industry was aided by (1) mobilizing public support through grassroots organizations, (2) including independent pharmacists in negotiations over the legislation, and (3) developing state purchasing power leverage.

...At the beginning of the 2000 legislative session, Senator Rivers, Vermont Senate President pro tempore Peter Shumlin (D-Putney), and eight other state senators introduced a new bill related to drug prices, S 300. The bill included provisions to lower drug prices, such as helping people to purchase drugs in Canada; it also provided for direct regulation of drug prices. S 300 started out without strong independent pharmacist opposition. It did so despite special concerns that they had about price caps. Part of the income that pharmacists earn derives from high markups on drugs sold to people without any discount arrangements. Price controls would reduce pharmacists' incomes to the extent that they would not allow them these high markups. Pharmacists were told by price control proponents that their net revenue would not be cut by S 300. Proponents asserted that there would be volume increases in drug store sales resulting from the plan that would offset the losses that pharmacists would take on lost markups. Without vigorous arguments to the contrary, some pharmacists were inclined to accept this logic...


...After it was clear that S 300 was blocked, Governor Dean announced that he would not veto it. His "support" was too late. Had he acted earlier in the legislative session, he could have used legislative items sought by the blue dogs in bargaining with them on the prescription drug price bill. By the time the governor indicated his support, there was little left with which to bargain. His support also came too late for the independent pharmacists. Had his support come earlier, he might have helped persuade independent pharmacy owners that the bill would not reduce their revenues...

http://www.metrostate.edu/cgi-bin/troxy/lproxy.cgi/URL-www.press.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_health_politics_policy_and_law/v028/28.1castellblanch.html

This article, bt Dr Ramon Castellblanch, the United States formost expert and opponent of the abuses of the parmaceutica companies indicates Dean's acting infavor of the pharmaceutical companies and his role in perpetuating the political power they wielded over the government of Vermont during his tenure as Govenor, covering the period from 1994, when Dean vetoed legislations that would have saved the tax payers and citizens of Vermont hundreds of millions of dollars in prescription expenses, to 2002, when after gaining more political subtlty, he simply blocked all attempts of the Vermont Democratic Party to prevent the drug compoanies from massively overcharging for their products. His bill that prevented the drug companies from giving doctors gifts worth more than 25 dollars was the most bogus and offensive legislation possible. It did absolutely nothing to stop the blatant theft committed by "Big Pill"

The same thing irtually applies to all of Vermont's social programs, none of which Dean was responmsible for creating, and all of which at one time or other in his tenure as governor, Dena attmpted to cut or eliminate:

Medicaid cuts will affect thousands of Vermonters
January 23, 2002

By DAVID MACE

Vermont Press Bureau

MONTPELIER — Tens of thousands of Vermonters would see their state health care benefits rolled back or cut off completely under Gov. Howard Dean’s proposed budget, which seeks to wring $16.5 million in savings from Medicaid.

In an effort to curb costs in a rapidly expanding part of the social services budget, Dean is proposing to require many people who got coverage under his expansions of Medicaid programs to pay for a greater share of their health care...


Under the proposed budget, about 3,200 elderly or disabled Vermonters who get half the cost of long-term drugs paid for under a program called VScript Expanded would see their benefits disappear. This would save the state nearly $2.5 million. A single Vermonter with an annual income up to $19,332 is currently eligible.

And even those making less who are covered under the state’s standard VScript program will see their costs rise...

http://timesargus.com/Legislature/Story/41169.html

Those who know Dean say he’s no classic liberal
By ROSS SNEYD




Dean trimmed spending or held down increases in areas held dear by the liberals. More than once, Dean went to battle over whether individual welfare benefits should rise under automatic cost of living adjustments. Liberals were particularly incensed when he tried that tactic on a program serving the blind, disabled and elderly, which he did several times.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may_03/may_19/news/reg_vt0519a.asp

Howard Dean: the Progressive Anti-War Candidate?
Some Vermonters Give Their Views

By DONNA BISTER, MARC ESTRIN
and RON JACOBS



Health Care

Howard Dean gives passionate speeches about universal health care as a moral imperative, not just a policy initiative. Maybe, somewhere deep in his heart, he really believes that people have a right to good health care. But we sure aren't going to get there following the path he took in Vermont: tiny increments -- adding insurance coverage for kids in moderate income families one year, cutting back their benefits and increasing their co-pays and premiums the next. Adding a prescription drug benefit for low-income seniors, then cutting many of the most commonly used new drugs out of the formulary and forcing seniors back onto older medications with more side effects. His national proposal is similar--not really universal: it would extend Medicaid to people under 25, add a little prescription drug coverage to Medicare, tinker with this, adjust that, don't do anything to upset the insurance companies or big Pharmaceuticals. Then, when the bill gets big, he would make the cutbacks in the same incremental fashion. For example, began by defunding eyeglasses for kids here, dentures for seniors there. You know, just a few cuts; after all, everyone has to do his share.

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html

Dean calls for discipline in budget address
January 22, 2002



“The Medicaid budget will present significant challenges,” Dean said. “Every Vermonter deserves to have access to health care, and I will continue to fight for that principle. But we cannot afford to provide all the services that we currently offer.”

Dean said he wanted to eliminate some of the optional benefits Vermont offers through Medicaid so that the program would look more like the health care packages available through private insurance carriers. Vermont currently spends about $440 million on Medicaid, with about 60 cents of each dollar coming from the federal government and 40 cents from Vermont. The federal government mandates many of the benefits, but Vermont also provides some optional benefits.

During Dean’s tenure, Vermont has created some state-funded health care programs for people who are not eligible for Medicaid. Dean called for cuts in those programs as well.

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/41141

Text of budget speech
January 22, 2002


By The Associated Press

Text of Gov. Howard Dean's 2002 budget address:{/b]

...This budget does not include revenue increases -- such as the cigarette tax -- that the Legislature has previously opposed. Therefore, I regretfully recommend to you that we eliminate the expanded VSCRIPT program in its entirety, which is 100 percent funded through state dollars.

I also ask that we impose a 50 percent co-payment on pharmaceutical benefits through both the Vermont Health Access Plan and the remaining VSCRIPT program. These pharmaceutical programs are among the most expensive and rapidly growing parts of the Human Services budget...

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/41112


On August 9th of 1993, four days after that fateful budget vote in the House of Representatives and one day before President Clinton signed his economic plan into law, Howard Dean announced a series of mid-year budget cuts that shocked the State of Vermont. State revenues had come in a little below expectations, so he decided that cuts had to be made. He cut health care services for 2,500 low-income disabled adults. He dropped dental coverage for over 12,000 Medicaid recipients. Monthly welfare benefits were cut. And for those nursing home patients who were forced to go the hospital, Medicaid would no longer pay to hold their bed for them back at the nursing home."



"In the end, Howard Dean was forced to back down by state legislators and by Vermont Legal Aid, which sued him for making cuts without the proper authority."



"In 1993, Howard Dean cut special education funding by a million dollars and refused to increase education funding by the $7 million the State Board of Education said was critically necessary."



"In 1994, he increased state spending in nearly every area, but froze funding for Medicaid, education, and special education. Children with special needs and ailing low income citizens didn’t warrant even a meager three percent increase in funding."



"In 1995, Howard Dean tried to cut nearly a million dollars from the Aid to the Aged, Blind, and Disabled Program. The state legislature refused. Shortly afterwards, he made similar cuts without the legislature’s approval, and again he was sued. A judge ordered him to restore the funding."



"In 1996, Howard Dean tried to cut over $26 million from Medicaid, and four times as Governor, he tried to eliminate prescription drug assistance for seniors. The very same program he now proclaims across the country."



"Time after time, when faced with budget shortfalls, Howard Dean’s first and only instinct was to cut. Cut education, cut prescription drug coverage, cut Medicaid funding, cut aid to the elderly, blind, and disabled. Howard Dean wears his bravado as a budget cutter like a badge of honor. But to me, where’s the honor in saying quote ‘we’re willing to go after our own people’s education, health, and welfare.’ There is no place for governance without compassion. You can be proficient without empathy, but human lives deserve something more."

http://www.politicsus.com/presidential%20press%20releases/Gephardt/112303.htm



As noted, whenever Dean found it necessary to balance the budget, Dean never did the ethical thing, the moral thing, in fact the thing that we as Democrats regard as the only correctway to balance a budget. To raise taxes on those who earn the most from the fredoms offered by our system of government. Whenever Dean was faced with a fiscal crisis Dean chose to make cuts to those who were the most vulnerable, the weakest.Those least capable of contributing to his campaign war chest. Those unable to fight for themselves.

Whenver I think of what the best government policy is I go back to the very earliest law giver Hammurabi, who said in his law code:

The first duty of government is to protect the powerless against the powerful.

Howard Deans concepts of fiscal conservatism fly in the face of this very first description of the obligation of the goverors to the governed.

Dean has always been ready to do the opposite. To turn his power against the powerless, in order to protect the powerful"


Lets look at another article about the state of bought government in Vermont:


Much of the defense's testimony, on the other hand, tried to show that while few Vermont lawmakers took actual bribes--the only example was a particularly clueless tobacco lobbyist handing out $40 checks on the state house floor to legislators who had just voted in support of his industry--they succumbed to more subtle but no less destructive corruption. Peter Shumlin, president pro tem of the senate, said that his heavy fundraising on behalf of Democrats in the 1996 election cycle "was one of the most distasteful things that I've had to do in public service." Money bought access. "Access," as Shumlin says, "equals influence." ...



Even in nice little Vermont, with a population the size of Washington, D.C., lawmakers receive largesse not only from local businesses and individuals, but from such national corporations and trade organizations as R.J. Reynolds, Philip Morris, Monsanto, Parke-Davis, Anheuser-Busch, the National Association of Chain Drug Stores, and the American Insurance Association. In the 1994 race, Dean received more contributions just from pharmaceutical interests than the Republican challenger David Kelley collected in total....

Shumlin says, "I heard directly from pharmaceuticals that they would be working actively against Democrats in Vermont. The death of the pharmaceutical bill was a great example of effective lobbying by interests absolutely contrary to public interest. There is no question they influenced legislators in two ways. One, through the threat of not having access to generous campaign contributions, and two... ." He pauses and adds, "There is no two."



1994 was the same year Dean vetoed real pharmaceutical legislation.

The later gift legislation was a "ppiece of fluff bill" something that the drug companies allowed Dean to do to get out from under the chages of having been paid off to veto Peter Shumlins legislation which would have controlled the excessive profits of pharmeceutical companies. He gave them a piece of legislation that they approved of, which would not hurt their profits. Sort of like the "Clear Skies Initiative that rtepublicans show off as an indication of their envoronmental credentials. A joke


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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. Are you still griping about the cuts that were never even made?
You've been told about a gazillion times that when the state Republicans tried to block the necessary cigarette tax that Dean put out that proposed (only a PROPROSAL) budget to scare the shit out of them so they would "get it" that the cigarette tax was needed. He knew full well that if the Republicans were responsible for those kinds of cuts in health care that they knew they'll all be voted out. It worked like a charm and they gave him what he wanted to save their political collective ass.

Dean used his Veto power on things that were filled with unnecessary pork, regardless of who presented it. That's why my state isn't in debt like most all other states are. It's called fiscal responsibility.

And again...you repeatedly cite rhetoric from the Vermont Progressive Party as if it were fact, and it's not. I hate to break this to you, Nicholas_J, but opposing parties tend to be a bit less than truthful in their criticism of whoever they happen to be running against. You'd get about the same level of reliable material if you cited Rove and the RNC. :eyes:
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Polemonium Donating Member (660 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
72. Wonderful post
I'm still amazed at those who have marginalized Howard Dean, his record, and his non-corporate grassroots support. Dean is the only candidate I will support.:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Another one! Enjoy our George.
I give up. It's one thing to support your candidate through thick and thin; it's another to give George W. Bush a free pass. That's what's happening here by too many Dean supporters, and I guess that's just the way it is. If he doesn't win, you pack up your ball and go home. Bounce, bounce, bounce.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-04 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Nominate The Candidate With The Most Votes/Delegates
Edited on Fri Jan-30-04 09:33 PM by CreekDog
If it's Dean, then okay, if not, then it should be the one with the most. I mean, as a party, how else do we decide things?

But if I'm supposed to vote for him, then why not try to convince me rather than threaten me that you won't support the nominee? I certainly don't see those opposed to Dean saying they won't support him if he gets the nod --why should you be any different?

Also, why is one man so important? Dean did many good things, but some of you have practically beatified the guy. He's a man --that's all, who you hope will represent and enact the change you want to see. However, many of the other candidates share the same beliefs and have as much ability to do what you think only Dean can do. So why withhold support for them?

It just seems like you belong to the Dean party, not the Democratic party. The latter may not always do the right thing, but it's survival cannot be dependent on one candidate in the primary if there are other choices.
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