Anyone see Dean on Hardball last night - blaming Bush I for the genocide?

[Sean Reynolds]

Last night on Hardball Dean started talking about how all the genocide Saddam did happened under the hands of the Reagan and Bush administration - said they turned their backs on those actions and it's pointless using an 11 year old genocide to justify a war today. It was amazing, I hope EVERY candidate starts talking about the United States and Iraq handjob that went on during the 80s and early 90s.

Anyway, here is the bit I'm talking about from Hardball:

DEAN: Saddam Hussein—Saddam Hussein clearly was genocidal. He clearly is a mass murderer. Most of those murders went on 11 years ago, when George W. Bush—George Bush‘s father created the Shiite—or wink and nodded and encouraged the Shiites to rebel and then didn‘t do anything to support them. That‘s when hundreds of thousands of Shiites were murdered.

The time to take out Saddam to stop genocide was 11 years ago, under the first Bush administration. But that didn‘t happen. To then say he was committing genocide through that entire 11 years, he was doing some terrible, terrible things. Genocide was not one of them. The gassing of the Kurds occurred many years ago. It‘s very hard to use that as an excuse to go to war many years later. I‘m delighted Saddam is gone. He‘s a terrible human being.

MATTHEWS: Especially when we were on the side...

DEAN: Pardon? What‘s that, Chris?

MATTHEWS: Especially when we were on the side of the Iraqis against the Iranians when they committed the genocide against the Kurds.

DEAN: Well, unfortunately, we have a long history of what Henry Kissinger used to call—or Metternich, actually, used to call realpolitik.

I think that we have made many mistakes over the years, siding with people who turned out to be pretty horrible people, on the grounds that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. And, unfortunately, the United States has been burned more than once in that regard. Certainly, we were burned in Central America, when we got rid of Allende, only to have Pinochet take over and have a lengthy dictatorship, where many people were murdered in Chile.

We did it in Afghanistan, when we actually helped some of the people who were working with Osama bin Laden because they were fighting the Russians at the time. We did it in Iraq. We‘ve got—you know, if I become president of the United States, we are not going to do that anymore. The enemy of your enemy may very well be your enemy, too. And watch out.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4106985/

:bounce:

[Wetzelbill]

1. Way to go, Howard Dean!!!!!

[Sean Reynolds]

2. Thats what I say.

I hope he continues to talk about this in the future. Average Americans need to know Reagan and Bush are to blame for Iraq and bin Laden!

[ewagner]

3. Hats off to Howard!

He did great with Tweety last night.

Tweety even treated him fairly and respectfully

quick...get the defib................

[Hep]

4. Dean's just angry

I heard it from the Kerry campaign.

[joshcryer]

9. Angry and unstable!

And negative! He says a lot of negative stuff! Just ask the DLC! Anger...

[Hep]

11. We'll let Dean stick his neck out, we'll attack him for it, then...

We'll steal it.

[Eloriel]

37. Ah, but only if it plays well with the voters and focus groups n/t

[polpilot]

19. Was Kerry in congress 11 years ago?? 20 years ago?? 30 years ago??

Dean '04...The Decent Party

[vi5]

5. That's excellent....

Not a Dean supporter or fan here, but let's call it as it is. That is a phenomenal exchange on a subject that needs to be discussed more often. Kudos to the Doctor for doing so.

[sangh0]

6. Why does Dean give GWB* a pass on genocide?

GWB* launched an war of choice that ended the lives of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. Why is he going after GHWB and giving GWB* a pass?

[GumboYaYa]

26. Hello, this whole exchange was in the context of

discussing the fact that we were misled into Iraq and there needs to be accountability for the current Bush for doing that.

Talk about finding something to criticize regardless of what was said, this takes the cake.

[blm]

7. Odd. Dean said on Hardball in Dec. Poppy's foreign policy was "excellent."

He said he supported Bush1 fully on the Gulf War then.Why would he change his opinion now?

[joshcryer]

8. Maybe he was uninformed?

Or maybe he wasn't approving of all of his tactics?

Maybe you could be a good reporter for FOX News.

edit, you changed your post, where did he say that he agreed with Bush 1 "fully"?

[blm]

24. He always says he fully supported Gulf War 1.

.

[GumboYaYa]

28. Give it up....

We know you can't stand Dean, but this current critique holds no water. Dean was commenting on the fact that the genocide in Iraq occurred after Gulf War I when Bush winked and nodded to the Shiites that if they revolted the US would support them. They revolted, we didn't support them and they all got killed. There is absolutely nothing inconsistent about the Hardball statement and last night's statement.

[sangh0]

48. Dean praised GHWB's foreign policy when Governor

but now Dean will say anything to get votes.

[daveskilt]

12. up to a point

It is perfectly reasonable to back Gulf war I right up to the point where pop bush says "fight and we will help you" then left the kurds out to dry and get massacred. He is responsible for that genocide. There is no plausible way for him to deny he knew that he was not going to invade and that by encouraging the kurds to fight with lying promises he was knowingly sending them to their deaths for his own political gain and with no hope for them to reach their goal.

Bush Jr didnt even have a semi plausible justification for war before he started bombing civilians and stealing oil.

[joshcryer]

14. Totally agreed.

I also was upset that Bush I pulled out of Iraq like that. Why did he do it? Well, quite simply, his reelection was coming up and he didn't want our boys coming home dead because he thought that would screw his chances, so what does he do? Pull out at the most critical time possible... leaving thousands to die.

[polpilot]

21. Bush I pulled out because: (1) he would have to share the oil with the '91

coalition. The oil guys thought the oil would be the domain of U.S companies ONLY in 'Bomb the Sheperds-The Sequel.'

Dean '04..The Decent Party

[sangh0]

49. Dean never criticized the "genocide" before

When Dean was governor, GHWB was OK. Now Dean will say anything to get votes.

[Larkspur]

22. Gee, blm, don't you recall Saddam was invading one of our allies

in 1991, and we had an obligation to defend them and we were welcomed by our allies in the region. But wait! Kerry voted against that war that was obviously needed and had the full support of our allies. And he voted in 2002 for a war that those very same allies opposed. What kind of foreign policy experience is that? "Sticking the finger in the wind" kind of foreign policy experience it is.

[blm]

25. So you say. I think I'll stick with MY trusted instincts.

.

[Larkspur]

27. It obvious your instincts ignore reality

Kerry only developed spine in attacking Bush AFTER Dean starting hitting him and the other pro-war contenders.

Democrats owe a debt to Dean
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/column.shields.opinion.dean/index.html

Dean, not Kerry, made it safe again for all Dems to attack Bush.

[Metrix]

35. The 1991 vote: Look into this further

January 12, 1991
Nays (47)
Democrats (45 or 82%)
Adams, Akaka, Baucus, Bentsen, Biden, Bingaman, Boren, Bradley, Bumpers, Burdick, Byrd, Conrad, Daschle, DeConcini, Dixon, Dodd, Exon, Ford, Fowler, Glenn, Harkin, Hollings, Inouye, Kennedy, Kerrey, Kerry, Kohl, Lautenberg, Leahy, Levin, Metzenbaum, Mikulski, Mitchell, Moynihan, Nunn, Pell, Pryor, Riegle, Rockefeller, Sanford, Sarbanes, Sasser, Simon, Wellstone, Wirth

Republicans (2 or 5%)
Grassley, Hatfield

[sangh0]

50. Larkspur thinks we "fought to liberate Kuwait" from Saddam

Sound familiar?

[Larkspur]

52. Saddam committed an act of agression in 1991 that was condemned

by his neighbors and the UN.

Saddam's invasion of Kuwait also threatend our oil supply from Saudi Arabia and since we were and are still heavily dependent upon foreign oil, Saddam's 1991 invasion of Kuwait threated the US.

Unlike Bush II, Bush I did get a real coalition that not only suppled troops but paid for most of the war bill.

That is why Al Gore voted FOR the 1991 Iraq War Resolution. Gore's vote made sense. Kerry's did not.

[creativelcro]

10. Yep, don't see Kerry saying much about that...

[On the Road]

13. So Who Says There's No Difference Among Candidates?

I'm glad to hear his answer and crushed that he probably won't be in a position next January to follow through.

Dean DOES have a nomination that he's trying to win, though. This type of issue is not going to bring him back in the polls. He needs to concentrate on domestic issues. Start another "Save Social Security" initiative, for example.

[Eloriel]

41. He was answering questions, ribofunk

Not setting an agenda.

47. Talking sense to the American people

I think that is what Dean is doing.
My mother reminded me of this this morning.
It makes me sad.
This is what she wrote me--
"I remember Adlai Stevenson's run for the Presidency when I was 16. I worked in the local office and went knocking on doors, too.. His famous motto was that he was going to "talk sense to the American people" and you see how far that took him."

[LoneStarLiberal]

15. This is Fantastic Stuff! Huzzah!

I'm a Clark backer, but this is fantastic stuff! It just goes to show that good reasoning and good work should not be subject to partisan categorization ("It didn't come from <insert favorite candidate here> therefore it's bunk.").

I've always thought it was astoundingly foolish of our candidates to simply assume the position when it came to September 11, American prestige being on the decline around the world, and all the mass graves that are apparently our justification du jour for invading Iraq.

Dean's exactly right. The screwed up uber-Machiavellian policies pursued by many Presidental administrations during the Cold War left us with a number of huge credibility gaps once the Cold War ended. Afghanistan, Iraq, Congo-Zaire and Pakistan to name a few major ones.

Saint Ronnie, with the assistance of Democrats Charlie Wilson and Paul Tsongas in Congress, mired us deeply in the very creation of the armed-to-the-teeth and trained-in-the-black-arts al-Qaeda umbrella of militant Islamic organizations. Also on Saint Ronnie's watch we armed the hell and trained the hell out of Saddam Hussein because, as Dean correctly states, he was the enemy of our enemy (Khomeni's Iran) and therefore, by conservative logic, our friend. That we enabled a good decade's worth of Saddam's brutality, including the Anfal campaign against the Kurds (widely cited now as one of the reasons to depose Saddam), has gone pretty much unmentioned outside of liberal circles.

Good work, Dr. Dean.

[ProfessorPlum]

16. Awesome

that guy rocks. It's about time we start remembering the lessons of our own (pretty checkered) history.

Go Dean!

[RichM]

17. Dean is dead wrong about "US being burned" in Chile & Afghanistan.

Does he really believe this stuff? How disappointing -- he seems to not know the difference between real history and US propaganda.

Pinochet was not an "unpleasant surprise" to the US - he was OUR BOY all the way, just like the Shah, Marcos, Suharto, etc. It was precisely the plan, to install Pinochet, after undermining Allende -- and there was no doubt whatever about what Pinochet would be like.

Pretending that the US had some moral horror after seeing what Pinchet actually did is embarrassingly weak, for someone who tries to portray himself as a truth-teller.

I give him credit for telling the truth about Bush I's responsibility for Saddam's mass murders in 1991. But the rest of it is very disappointing. Look at his phrasing: I think that we have made many mistakes over the years, siding with people who turned out to be pretty horrible people, on the grounds that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. That misrepresents the "grounds" on which we sided with those horrible people. We sided with them because we knew they could be relied upon to suppress & kill the people we wanted suppressed & killed, and because backing such rulers in client states is beneficial to the US program of global domination.

[bread_and_roses]

29. You said it

But I give credit to Dean for speaking up on "Iraq, the prequel." Iraq war I was as viscious and unethical an action as Iraq war II, as were the sanctions. We need to hear more of this from all of our candidates...at least, a few voters out there might begin to understand where the hatred fueling terrorism against the US is coming from.

[Terwilliger]

30. RICH!!!

I'd given up on ya!! :hi:

[RichM]

40. Hi, Ter.

Nice to see you! :hi:

Yeah, I thought I'd browse on by & see what's happenin' in the ol' neighborhood. ;-)

[milkyway]

38. You're right, but Dean can only go so far before he's

labeled an un-American nut. He still went further than any candidate this side of DK would, and there was certainly no political gain with most people in bringing this up. Once again, Dean stands out front, ready to take the bullets for his followers.

[CWebster]

46. RichM!

Too bad we have to greet each other in such a manner of slight disagreement. I think you are reading something into it that isn't there, Dean is pointing out the MISTAKE of operating with types like Pinochet. I was actually impressed when he started to discuss it.:crazy:

[SeattleRob]

18. it is precisely this reason...

because he speaks the unpleastant truths, the Republicans and the Deomcratic establishment has been in full attack mode against him.

[Cheswick2.0]

20. Look for Kerry to wait a few days with his finger in the wind

and then repeat what Dean said. :eyes:

[Zomby Woof]

23. but he confused "shi'ites" with "Kurds"

That was a major gaffe. But I won't fault him for bringing up the failure of Bush Sr. with Iraq.

[HFishbine]

32. No, He didn't

He is exactly right about that. It was the shi'ites in the south who were quietly encouraged to revolt, then abandoned by Bush I. Dean is not the one who has the facts wrong.

[Zomby Woof]

33. it was the Kurds in the north

The shi'ites in the south were more or less consistently harrassed and/or killed by Saddam throughout his reign. The Kurdish episode was because of Bush's abandonment.

Dean was wrong, although his heart was in the right place. Same goes for his comment about Chile being in "Central America" (um, no, Doctor, it is in South America), and that it was some kind of unpleasant surpirse that Allende was overthrown. As someone else said above, Pinochet was our boy.

Dean wasn't Dan Quayle-bad on these points. Reminded me more of Gerald Ford, who asserted in the 1976 debate with Carter that "Poland is not under the influence of the USSR".

[HFishbine]

39. Your information is incorrect

Dean was correct and your information is not. Dean was refering to the shi'ite uprising in the south of Iraq after Gulf war I that was encouraged by Bush I. It's a matter of historical fact.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/11/1049567865441.html

[Zomby Woof]

45. still

Bush ignored the Kurds, who met a similar fate, for similar reasons. So I will give Dean credit for telling half the story.

Dean is not qualified to be president, and his campaign is in its final weeks. Sooner or later, his supporters will come to terms with that.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RogueTrooper]

36. And the marsh arabs

who were in coalition with the Shia. Saddam destroyed their ancient habitat in revenge.

[RetroLounge]

42. Nice try, but no gaffe here.

eom

[Zomby Woof]

44. saying Chile is in Central America was a gaffe

It is the same as saying Canada is in Central America. Makes him look inexperienced and unqualified, which he is.

[Jerseycoa]

31. Dean was really good with Tweety last night

:toast:

[slinkerwink]

34. thanks!

:hi:

[Anwen]

51. Yes I saw that!!

Damn I love his straight-forward honesty! :bounce: