Rubbing salt in the wound: a lesson in how to alienate people.

[Cuban_Liberal]

I'm not going to speculate about why it's so, but it's becoming quite obvious that some supporters of one or two candidates are insisting on 'rubbing salt in the wounds' of Dean supporters. I'm frankly puzzled as to why anyone would want to do this since, by all objective evidence, the vast majority of Dean supporters appear to be solid Democrats who are 'ABB' folks. Does gratuitously alienating them seem to be a good strategy for the GE? If so, I fail to see it.

You know who you are. Lighten up, OK?

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. Kick

[On the Road]

2. I Don't Understand it Either

I am ABB, but my enthusaism is not the same for all candidates.

And Dean was correct -- a surprising number of his supporters seem to have nontransferable votes. Antagonizing the supporters of a losing candidate is not the way to win in November.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. I'm pretty certain the VAST majority of ALL candidate supporters are ABB

It works both ways.

[xultar]

4. I don't know what you are talking about. I think

Most of us have really been very positve to Dean supporters. Especially Clark supporters because we know what it feels like to get attacked and assaulted.

Last night all of the comments were fairly civil.

[creativelcro]

5. Clark supporters HAVE been decent.

It's the brainless bragging and misinfirmation by certain Kerry supporters that have forced most Dean supporters to go to other sites for sensible discussion.

[progressivebydesign]

8. Clark supporters have improved a lot..

I appreciate that.

[xultar]

11. Dean supprters have been less abrasive as well.

I appreciate that too!

I knew we'd get together

[edzontar]

21. Indeed. The Clark contingent has found its kinder heart.

Unlike the Kerry folks, who are, for the most part, unrelenting and alienating in the extreme.

[slinkerwink]

25. exactly.

[jsw_81]

44. "brainless bragging and misinfirmation"

Isn't that the motto of the Dean campaign?

[Cuban_Liberal]

49. That was helpful.

I'm certain that that statement will bring HUGE numbers of Dean supporters on board the Kerry campaign. :eyes:

[jsw_81]

55. Dean doesn't even have any real support

The man got 18 percent in Iowa after spending $30 million, and he's currently running fifth in South Carolina; it's not like the Dean campaign is some kind of juggernaut that we have to worry about. Edwards on the other hand...

[Cuban_Liberal]

56. Their votes count like anyone else's.

Keep alienating them, and Sen. Edwards or Gen. Clark will benefit. Is that what Kerry supporters want? If so, that's fine with me. :think:

[jsw_81]

61. Tell me something

Why is it okay for Dean's supporters to attack Kerry but not okay for Kerry supporters to fight back?

Just this morning Dean people have told me:

- Kerry is old and boring
- Kerry is the Democratic Bob Dole
- Kerry is a Republican
- Kerry should shut up about his Vietnam record
- Kerry sucks
- Kerry is an idiot
- Kerry is rich and arrogant

Yet when I make a rather harmless joke about the imminent collapse of the Dean campaign, everyone freaks out like I just punched an infant. Is that how it works? Do we all have to treat the Dean people with kid gloves until they feel better?

[Cuban_Liberal]

66. You might, if you want their votes.

I do, so I'm letting stuff pass...

[Duncan Grant]

76. That's not good.

Ideally, Dean supporters should be taking issue with Kerry's positions or the relevant issues of the campaign. I've refrained because the level of animosity among the two 'camps' is out of control. Seriously, it's as if the most well intentioned efforts to engage in an exchange of ideas are suspect. So much emotion, so little thought.

I do hope the incendiary threads stop soon...on all sides. That being said, I'm all for raucous debate provided that we can keep the punches above the belt.

[Cuban_Liberal]

6. FWIW...

... I mean the gratuitous 'digs' at the Dean campaign, etc. . I know MOST people here aren't doing it, but a certain group of about 10 people insist on 'rubbing salt in the wound' of Dean supporters, and it seems pretty mean-spirited, petty and pointless..

[Duncan Grant]

I'd agree with that.

And one prominent DU Kerry supporter is leading the charge to take the high road when criticizing candidates. I've appreciated those efforts very much!

[progressivebydesign]

7. Agreed.. and it's changed my views..

I'm a Dean supporter.. have been for many, many months. Because of the incessant attacks, and rude remarks of certain candidates supporters... my next favorite candidate, if Dean drops out, has changed. But I shouldn't say who my second choice is, otherwise the supporters of the other candidates might know who I was talking about.

Psssst. My second choice is Edwards. Okay. Actually, in addition to the behavior of the other supporters, I am giving Edwards a second look. I like his style, and I like what he has to say.

I'm with Dean for as long as he's statistically viable. He has the most important message, and the most passion for what I believe in.

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. Sen. Edwards is a gentleman.

He has conducted himself as a gentleman, and most of us are trying to emulate that behavior. :)

[Duncan Grant]

10. The hostility I've seen in GD Primary does seem misplaced.

It's not like our candidates are corrupt, immoral, unethical crooks like some politicians we could target. Passions are running *very* high right now (and in all fairness, there's plenty of blame to go around).

What's really fun is when someone says, "Suck it up" or "Get a thicker skin", and allow me to intimidate and insult you. I suppose the ability to be an anonymous a** encourages some people to say things here that they'd never say in public.

Some days GD Primary looks like a place where we burn down the house just to treat it for a minor termite infestation. :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. What wounds?

According to the Dean supporters on DU, everything is fine at the Dean campaign, Dean is going to win the nomination in an unstoppable tide of newly-energized grassroots support.

How can we rub salt into that? By pointing out that it is a fantasy?

I've endured months and months of ridicule and abuse of my candidate that continues unabated today. If someone's feelings are hurt by me pointing out that my candidate is winning, so be it.

[Cuban_Liberal]

13. "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."

That's a certain way to get support for Sen. Kerry. Mmm hmm, yup, yup. :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

22. Your attempt to mischaracterize my post is misguided.

And I didn't say or imply anything like the sentiment you ascribe to me. Why don't you try responding to what I actually said?

[PVnRT]

26. He did

It's one thing to point out your candidate is winning, it's another thing to be a jerk about it like so many Kerry supporters are.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. Calling unnamed Kerry supporters 'jerks' is meaningless.

Should I respond by name-calling the supporters of other candidates?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julien Sorel]

78. Sorry, but...

it was far more than few. Too bad this place has rules against it (like almost everything else), or I'd post names; such a list would have at least 25 entries, and that would be off the top of my head. And of course, that's just the sheer number; the insane, over-the-top nature of some of the 'jerks' was beyond belief. Inventing insane conspiracy theories; posting links to equally nutty conspiracy theories every hour, every day for weeks on end; arrogantly proclaiming that 'ignorant Clarkie newbies' weren't welcome here; promising to rub it in to no end once Dean won the nomination, which was inevitable; attacking every candidate who wasn't Dean; proclaiming themselves the real Democrats and the rest of us fakes; attacking people as 'Republicans' who found Dean obnoxious and weak, and many of his supporters living in Fantasyland -- Dean supporters, as a group (and there were plenty of exceptions) turned this place into what it's become today.

While I agree with the original poster that there's nothing really practical to be gained by rubbing salt in, there are a few people left (many of the most egregious fuckheads disappeared when Dean collapsed in Iowa -- what a shock) who need a lesson in common sense and decency. A little salt can go a long way towards teaching that lesson.

[seaglass]

32. Did you seen any of the Dean is inevitable threads

Telling supporters of other candidates to give it up, relishing in a 2 month old Boston Herald poll that Kerry was losing in his own state?

This has NOT been a one way street.

[Cuban_Liberal]

37. Why continue the alienation?

Is there a point to that, besides pure revenge? :think:

[seaglass]

63. Your thread was about alienating people as if this is

happening to Dean supporters in a vaccuum. I'm only pointing out that the alienation began long ago so that maybe you would understand it.

I'm not condoning anyone rubbing salt in the wound, either then or now.

[PVnRT]

38. No, it hasn't

Have all Dean supporters posted those threads? No. Yet Kerry supporters assume we are all the same and all responsible and attack us all.

[seaglass]

65. All Kerry supporters attack all Dean supporters?

I don't think so. Nor do I believe all Dean supporters attack all Kerry supporters. I pretty much know the names of the attackers as I'm sure you do, it's not everyone.

[RetroLounge]

19. and now for a good example...

eom

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. Are you willing to engage in a discussion about it?

Or will your input be limited to hit-and-run sniping?

[Cuban_Liberal]

27. "...By pointing out that it is a fantasy?...."

That's certainly charitable. Mmmm hmm, yup, yup. That sort of post should bring TONS of Dean supporters to the Kerry campaign... :eyes:

I stand by my original answer.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. It is a fantasy.

And if I had any illusions a few months ago, I realize now that these silly arguments on DU are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT and meaningless.

There will be ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT ON THE ELECTORAL PROCESS from anything said on this forum.

It is nothing but a form of entertainment.

[Cuban_Liberal]

40. The last time I checked...

... Dr. Dean still had more delegates than anyone else. Until he drops out, or until someone else locks up the nomination, it's not a 'fantasy'.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

46. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

[Cuban_Liberal]

48. Did I say you weren't? n/t

[Feanorcurufinwe]

50. You implied that it was factually wrong.

"everything is fine at the Dean campaign, Dean is going to win the nomination in an unstoppable tide of newly-energized grassroots support."


I say that is a fantasy, if you disagree, fine. I'll catch up with you in 6 weeks and we will see who was right.

[Cuban_Liberal]

71. I 'implied' nothing.

If that's what you read, then so be it.:shrug:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

74. OK, we'll see in 6 weeks if it is a fantasy or not.

[Cuban_Liberal]

77. No, in 6 weeks we'll see if it's REALITY.

Right now nothing is fantasy, and it's extremely rude, crude and isulting to label anyone's belief in their candidate 'fantasy'.

[Duncan Grant]

34. I'm sorry you feel that way.

I do owe you a big thank you, though.

It's not my intention to call you out (seriously) but you've really inspired me to temper my own passions when salt gets in the wound (so to speak). I desperately don't want to be pathologized as a "sour grapes" Dean supporter. By the same token, I don't want to launch a rant that makes my candidate's supporters look like unprincipled, undisciplined neophytes.

And why should I (or anyone else) dampen our enthusiasm for our chosen candidate? Because others say we should? Call it a fantasy if you must, but it's not over for me until it's over.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

45. I applaud anyone who is enthusiastic about their candidate.

I myself, have supported many candidates over the years who had no chance of winning. Probably 90% of my general election votes have been for the losing candidate.

So during those campaigns, if someone had pointed out to me just how bad my candidate's chances were of winning, should I have reacted with anger and hurt, or with determination and hope?

[Cuban_Liberal]

47. Let me turn that question on its head.

Would you have been more or LESS likely to join that candidate's campaign if his/her people hadn't acted like jerks in pointing out what was painful to you, even if it was true? :think:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. I am not so immature

that I judge a candidate by what some anonymous person on a messageboard says. Whether it hurts my feelings or not.

[Cuban_Liberal]

58. The anonymity makes it OK?

I see now...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. I don't base my opinions on anonymous postings on the internet.

That's what I said.


What are you talking about?

"The anonymity makes it OK?"

Makes what OK?

[Cuban_Liberal]

67. The bashing and baiting.

That's 'what'.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

69. There have been times

when it really got me upset. But in my more sober moments I realize that everything said on this board is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the real campaign. It is merely entertainment, kind of like looking at Internet porn, only less messy.

[Duncan Grant]

51. Why is it important to you to point out your opinion of my candidate's..

chances? Who benefits from that discussion? A strident post about my candidate's campaign manager (insinuating corruption) or a glittering critique of my candidate's 'chances' adds nothing to the big picture of issues and process.

Obviously, Kerry has taken a lot of cheap shots around here (the botox thread last night was appalling!) but to trade offensive threads here is counter productive (imho).

[Feanorcurufinwe]

53. This is a discussion board; I come here to talk about politics.

If you don't want to read my comments, put me on ignore.

[Duncan Grant]

60. Short, concise, and to the point.

A perfect summary of an indefensible strategy. Excellent.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

62. Short, offtopic, and false.

A perfect example of contradiction dressed up as an argument.

[Duncan Grant]

68. What contradiction?

You've presented a case in which it's perfectly acceptable to tell other candidate's supporters that their candidate's chances of winning the nomination are slim to none.

You then say that you come here to discuss politics *and* if any of us don't like what you have to say, please place you on ignore.

My question is: Why bother with the 'your candidate doesn't have a snowball's chance' message if you are encouraging people like me to put you on ignore?

Unless, of course the intention is to commiserate with like minded people. Where's the discussion if everyone agrees with your point of view? Why should it remain permissible for posters to continue to disparage other campaigns only to engage in a series of self-congratulatory responses at the expense of others? :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

73. If you don't like my posts,

that is fine with me. I really don't care what you think about me.

I certainly do believe that it is perfectly acceptable for anyone to say anything on DU as long as it follows the rules.


That is my position, and if you wish to disagree with me, that is the position you are disagreeing with.

[quinnox]

14. This is nothing compared to what was done to Kerry campaign

by certain Dean folks here at Du. It was months of making fun of Kerry and his admittedly failing campaign, and mocking those of us who still supported Kerry.

[edzontar]

17. I shall never cease in my criticism of Kerry and his supporters...

After what Dean people have suffered here---I will vote for him, but that is it.

[Cuban_Liberal]

18. "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."

I'm sure that will bring those Dean supporters just RUNNING to support Sen. Kerry. Smack 'em around 3 or 4 times, and maybe they'll even bring their friends on board.:eyes:

By all means, keep it up, because it benefits MY candidate a lot more than it does Sen. Kerry. :shrug:

[PVnRT]

20. WAAAAH, mommy, he hit me first!

Yes, attack all supporters of a cnadidate because a few of them are assholes. Brilliant strategy. Do you cut your finger off when it itches so that it will stop?

I swear, there are people on DU who I will never have respect nor a use for thanks to this election.

[edzontar]

24. The fact that the Clark folks have found a gentler voice proves...

That reform is possible.

If only some supporters of some other canddiates could learn that, I might feel better about Kerry.

[CWebster]

15. pretty cocky and demanding, aren't they

Well, it is their 15 minutes, let them hang onto their big hurrah until the jig turns sour. It is comical because they need us, and they know it. At this stage of the game I would be more likely to appreciate the consideration of the Clark people as well as acknowledging their firm support of their candidate.

[edzontar]

16. It is hard to even BEGIN on this one...but here goes..

For many months, Dean supporters have had to endure the most vicious and vituperous assualts from supporters of other canddiates.

After Iowa and the much-ballyhooed "speeach," an orgy of attacks were launched, mostly by self-declared Clark supporters, but also from the much smaller ranks of Kerry folks.

I have encountered some decent Clark folks here, but it was their arrival and the "Stop Dean Movement" that some of them brought to these forums that set into motion the disaster that literally drove scores of us--at least 150 acccording to my count-- to scale back our DU participation or to leave altogether.

So yes, it is true, the incessant attacks have alienated me from most of the other candidates, and from DU as a whole.

Since then, I have noticed a distinct upward tick in the character and content of Clark supporting threads. I feel a genuine kinship with them now.

No so Kerry, of course.

I still expect to cast my vote for this DLC sell-out if he gets the nomination.

But I have no present plans to donate, nor work in any significant way, to help that candidate win.

And for that, you can thank all the wonderful people here on DU who bashed my candidate and drove myself and my friends to greener pastures---yes, there is a consequence, and I am afrraid that it is too late to do anything about it.

[adadem]

29. But , you must

admit that there are a good many Dean supporters who have posted some of the, as you put it, "most vicious and vituperous assualts" toward other candidates and his/her supporters here at DU, too. The Dean supporters here have not exactly been "angelic" toward others.

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. So that justifies a 'vituperative' response?

Hmmm.... :shrug:

[WiseMen]

31. Could Admin do a survey of Libelous Posts on Board. Could Enlighten Us

I, for one, have tried to avoid any criticism of Candidates except in response to vicious posts, and rarely even then. I think an impartial survey of the board will find that it is Senator Kerry who has been the object of more gratuitous attacks than any other
candidate.

If the Admin has data, I would love to see proof otherwise.

[Cuban_Liberal]

33. Since I support neither Dean not Kerry...

... my observation would be that the number are about equal.

[WiseMen]

42. Could you show any evidence. My quick count today is about 15 to 1

Dean attacks on Kerry vs Kerry attacks on Dean.

I saw a list just posted on some of todays libelous posts against Kerry, but the combined pile is just too horrible to copy here.

Here is the link to themes of many threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=232731

[Cuban_Liberal]

43. Oh, please!

Do you seriously think I have the time to go through every archived thread in DU? My impression is just as valid as is yours.:eyes:

[NashVegas]

59. What Was This in Response To?

Other than the "let's hit on the 'Dean's unelectable' meme?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=11301

[Jerseycoa]

39. No one group here holds the patent on salting wounds

But I agree it should stop and fast.

[Cuban_Liberal]

41. I agree.

At some point, some one group of supporters has to play the grownup, and quit acting like 3rd graders.

[John_H]

54. I confess. My relief that Dean won't be the nom. has occasionally

crossed the line into gloating. Sorry to those I've offended.

[ibegurpard]

57. People can rub salt in my wounds all they want

It doesn't affect my view of any candidate, it only affects my view of them. My disdain for Kerry or any other candidate has very little to do with the obnoxiousness of anyone on this board.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. That's the spirit!

I respect you.

[paulk]

70. quite frankly, you haven't been on this board long enough

to make an objective assessment of this.

Dean supporters have, by far, been the worst group when it comes to nonstop attacks on other candidates. First it was Kerry, then Clark, and now it's Kerry again. If Edwards had shown himself more of a threat, then, believe me, he would have gotten it also.

I have seen very little "rubbing salt in the wound" posts on here - what I mostly see are an unending stream of accusations from thin skinned Dean supporters.

There is a core group of Dean supporters on this board who wrote the book on how to "alienate" people. Now that their candidate has shown himself to be inviable, it seems to be actually getting worse.

You're barking up the wrong tree, IMO.

[Cuban_Liberal]

72. I've been here since LONG before I registered.

I've been reading this board for almost 2 years, and my analysis is perfectly valid.

[Cheswick2.0]

79. It's okay CL, we aren't all that wounded

But thanks for your concern. :hi:

[EarlG]

80. While we appreciate the effort

to discuss why supporters of candidates should avoid alienating supporters of other candidates, this thread doesn't seem to be doing the job. It appears to have turned into a competition to determine which candidate has the worst supporters.

I suggest you all go read - and comment on, if you feel like it - Skinner's thread at the top of the page.

EG