John Kerry is a democratic Bob Dole.

[onebigbadwulf]

We know that the old, boring, insider, whose only positive attribute is an impressive military record doesn't win.


Sorry but I don't want to sit around and watch dems throw away 2004.

[dolstein]

1. My sentiments exactly

The only reason so many elected officials are flocking to him is because he looks good in comparison to Howard Dean, who would obviously be a disaster as the nominee. Kerry would be less of a disaster. Frankly, I'm not satisfied with that. I want someone who can win, and that someone is John Edwards.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elixir]

14. I agree, he doesn't ring true or deep. Lots of package, no content.

[papau]

19. So we agree - it is to be Hillary?

:-)

[dolstein]

17. That may be true, but he's a better phony than Kerry is

If Edwards ain't the general article, then he's the best damn knock-off I've ever seen. But there is simply no hiding Kerry's intrinsic phoniness. Seriously, this guys a gazillionaire and he's trying to run as a populist. He keeps having to reach back forty years to Vietnam to find an example of where he had the same life experiences of ordinary Americans.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

23. But since you analyse races please explain why this didn't matter

to Iowans...people who pride themselves on being ordinary.

[gWbush is Mabus]

38. i watched a couple Edwards speeches

the women were staring at him with love in their eyes.
he pretends to know their suffering and they can relate
they love his southern accent
he got votes from DK supporters who should have gone to Dean (IMO) if they want to change the country.


is that enough reasons for you?

[gWbush is Mabus]

2. kerry also copies Dean

at the debate, he was saying EXACTLY what dean has been saying for months.

Kerry is no leader, we need Dean.

[Nashyra]

5. I couldn't agree more

[blm]

13. No. Many just weren't listening to anyone but Dean for months.

Dean ripped off most of his positions from Kerry's longheld positions. Dean was the centrist for 11 years who converted to populism last year.

Kerry's LIFETIME record was closest to Wellstone's of all the candidates, yet, somehow many Dean supporters can't absorb that fact.

[XanaDUer]

22. I want to laugh when I hear the Kerry-ripoff junk...

not possible, since Dean's positions were generally those of Republicans and fiscal conservatives for the bulk of his career.

If Kerry did ever rip off Dean, his positions would have moved far to the right.

Spurious argument.

[waldenx]

3. at least Dole resigned

to run his campaign.
Kerry would never risk his political career for ANYTHING.

[jsw_81]

28. Massachusetts has a Republican governor

Why should we just hand a U.S. Senate seat to the Republicans? The only way they'll ever get that seat is if Kerry goes to the White House on January 20, 2005.

[polmaven]

48. Are you sure about that jsw?

I should know this, but I don't:silly: ....With two years still left on Kerry's term, will Mitt just appoint a successor, or will there be a special election to fill his seat?

[jsw_81]

57. Kerry's seat isn't up until 2008 (he was re-elected in 2002)

The governor can appoint a successor as soon as the seat becomes vacant. I'm not sure if they'll have a special election or not.

[ibegurpard]

59. That's not a very good selling point for your candidate.

Perhaps you shouldn't bring it up?

[blm]

4. You didn't notice his exposing of BCCI, IranContra and CIA drugrunning?

Hmmmm...I thought only the Republicans wanted to ignore those events.

Kerry sure will impress the history books that will tell the tale of government corruption by the Reagan and Bush administrations.

Sorry you can't feel the same.

[cavebat2000]

6. yeah right

nt

[pnziii]

16. 20 years ago

He did something good
What has he done in the last 4 years?

[girl gone mad]

18. We noticed...

but we also noticed when he told the Dems not to cry in their teacups over election improprieties in Florida and when he voted for IWR, Patriot act, etc.

I guess it just comes down to whether you want a fighter or a thinker to take on Bush. I want a fighter, and I think we need one. Clark, Dean and even Edwards are fighters.

[AntiCoup2K4]

25. "A lie repeated enough becomes the truth"

If Kerry "exposed" the Bush Criminal Empire, they wouldn't be in the White House right now. Instead we have Kerry with proven ties to PNAC, who are in fact, an offshoot of the Bush Criminal Empire.

[pnziii]

61. WHAT?????

What are Kerry's ties to PNAC

[ibegurpard]

50. Great job there

We got Poppy running things from retirement in Houston and Oliver North running for senate seats. Boy, he did a bang-up job.

[zulchzulu]

7. Yeah, right

The voters don't think so. It looks like your candidate looks like Howdy Doody to them.

63. and the voters are ?

"When an admirer gushed to Adlai Stevenson 'Every thinking person will vote for you' he ruefully replied 'Yes, but I need a majority'."

[D G]

8. I'd prefer boredom to the "excitement" of four more years of Bush

Luckily Kerry doesn't bore me. And Kerry's not a lock-in for the nomination either. Have you given up on supporting your own preferred candidate?

[SaveElmer]

9. I shared this sentiment until recently

I have been impressed with Kerry recently. He has shown some fighting spirit, and I thought his victory speech on Tuesday was very good. We probably have Dean to thank for this transformation...hopefully it will continue into the general election

[vi5]

11. That would make Bush the Clinton of this election...

And I think we all know whether or not that is the case.

[NNN0LHI]

12. Damn. I didn't know we were at war all over the world when Dole ran

And soldiers dying daily back then. Tell me about it. My memory is not so good.

Don

[Rolling Titanic]

15. I thought this on the nights of Iowa and NH

Dean is teh only democrat that will really excite the voters. Kerry is Bob Dole. This election will be very close. People can't stay home because they think ho-hum. The VOTERS that will vote for Kerry are going to come out for any democrat because they are really voting against Bush. That MAY be enough but probably not. What the dems need is the for those Greens to come back. If they did it would not even be close. The Greens were like Perot was to the Republicans. It took them two election cycles to get past that. If democrats are smart, they'll go with Dean, get the greenies back and win.

[slinkerwink]

20. exactly.....

[vi5]

24. Again, I am very curious...

If Dean can't even excite enough people to come out and vote for him to win the first democratic caucus and the first democratic primary in relatively democratic friendly states then how is there any evidence or justification that he would be able to do it in the general election? Honestly. I've asked this a few time and nobody has answered me with anything other than slogans or platitudes or placing blame elsewhere.

I know the excuse is the media has scared people, but then if that is the case then how excited could people be if they are so fickle as to switch so suddenly?

[Rolling Titanic]

31. I submit that that is not what is happening...

What is happening is subliminal. Dean IS succeeding in getting people out. There was a record turnout for the PRIMARY in both Iowa and NH and it wasn't because old bag a bones Senator for two terms was running. It was because Dean got people there. Once they got there, though, the news stories about Dean being nasty, crazy unelectable, started coming into minds like ghosts and they went with the media darling Kerry because, it had been suggested to them, that he was "electable". To this day I have not read a Boston Globe hit piece on Kerry. But there was one every day when Dean was the front runner. At the same time (i.e. the same day) there would be a nice story about Kerry, or one saying how he picked up a whole point in the polls (this when he was running 17 behind). Make no mistake, Kerry is the hand picked Democrat.

[vi5]

36. Didn't answer my question I see....

Which is, bottom line: If people are as excited as you say, and Dean is the focus of that excitement, then how could it be so easily swayed by the media? If that excitement doesn't translate into actual votes for the candidate then I guess I must just not be getting how it is supposed to manifest themselves.

You have no proof that people are not just excited about picking our nominee and that is the reason we are having record numbers at the polls.

[Rolling Titanic]

42. Who said it was easy....

the people who own the media work very hard to get you to do things you wouldn't ordinarily do.

You are thrilled about Howard,you've made up your mind to go vote for the first time in a long time. But then, the whole week before you get to vote you start getting bombarded with subtle hints that Dean is unelectable. You read stories in the newspaper that report on some obscure philosophical debate on the validity of caucuses as if the person who said that causcuses weren't very good was really an insane dictator to be. The same paper reports on how Kerry meets up with the long lost guy he saved in Vietnam. Hell of a coincidence but oh well. Its on TV too.

Finally election day comes, and you still want to go with Dean but you are wavering because you really like Dean but you now think that he's unelectable and you are left with that nawing feeling that you'll throw away your vote. Why do you feel that way? Why should Kerry be more electable than Dean? Well maybe its because he's a military hero and that'll make him more palatable to all those rednecks in the south... Geez , we really have to beat Bush don't we...Damn! I'd better go with Kerry.

It works the same way they get you to eat McDonalds or Cornflakes or buy a particular car. It isn't easy but it is done every day. Watch the superbowl this Sunday and you'll see it in action.

[girl gone mad]

32. The people who voted for Kerry..

actually thought Dean was the person who stood up for what he believed, and thought Kerry did not.

They were simply trying to choose who they thought the rest of the country would like in the GE, not who they liked. Sort of like casting directtors instead of voters.. Kerry fit the role of Presidential, maybe because they are used to seeing him in Washigton buildings, maybe because he is very tall.. who knows exactly?

What it didn't have much to do with was support for him on the issues or belief in his vision for the country.

[vi5]

40. Again, my question.....

Even assuming everything you say is true (which I don't believe...but I'll put that aside).

Do you honestly think the general electorate and voters in November will be any LESS swayed by the media? Do you think they will be LESS gullible? Do you think they will be LESS inclined to vote for someone they "perceive" as being presidential?

You honestly believe that voters in the general election will be LESS inclined to consider that stuff when voting than fired up Democrats in a primary will be?

[Rolling Titanic]

47. They won't matter because the middle won't make

any difference between red-states and blue-states if the greenies come out. The differences between red-states and blue states with only about 10 exceptions is simply too great. Do you see NY going for Bush no matter who the democrat is? Do you see alabama going democratic no matter who the democrat is? There is a clear division of electoral votes and the democrat starts with 260 and only needs 10 more to win. The swing states could be Florida (97,000 green votes), Ohio, Indiana, WV, NH. Bush has a lot more to be worried about if the greens come out than we do about who we put out. Therepublicans win if the people dean is getting to come out don't.

[vi5]

56. "The people Dean is getting to come out..."

Don't you see that's my point? If he can't get them to "come out" for the primaries why should I have any confidence that he won't get them to "come out" for the general election? And if he can't persuade them to vote for the nominee no matter who it is, then what kind of sway does he have over the people he's so inspiring?

Sorry to sound harsh but this is for real here and anyone who doesn't understand that and would rather spend their time second guessing what "the people" want are going to cause us to lose more than anything else.

[girl gone mad]

58. Absolutely.

Perot was not "electable" by any standard of the word. Look what happened there.

Clinton, with his sex scandals was not "electable". Bush Sr., with a successful war under his belt and coming off of 90% approval ratings was "electable".

Voters went for the candidates with passion and charisma, not the most "Presidential". What could be more Presidential than a sitting President, after all?

So, if the voters do decide in November to pick the most Presidential, chances are they'll be picking the guy who is already President.

[jsw_81]

34. Dean is the only Democrat who will really excite the voters?

That's funny, because I've been watching the news and so far Kerry has won every single primary and caucus, and he's about to win several more in the days to come. Dean, on the other hand, has spent over $30 million and has yet to win anything; the new polls show Dean getting trounced everywhere on February 3. Face it: Dean would be a disaster in the general election. If he can't even run his own campaign, how in the world is he going to beat Bush?

[Rolling Titanic]

39. That's OK

you'll only have yourselves to blame when the turnout is about the same as it was in 2000(or even less) and Bush gets reelected. Kerry's a stiff and he's my senator. He is Dole. Even so, after the General Election, I'm sure he can make some more millions plugging Viagra.

[jsw_81]

41. Well if Kerry is Dole, then I guess Dean is Goldwater

Dean would be absolutely crushed from coast to coast. Just look at how his amateurish little campaign has collapsed in recent days. They can't even pay their staff! And this is the guy you want us to put up against an incumbent president?!?

[Rolling Titanic]

46. I don't really think so and here's why

If you look at the electoral college, Dems (even with redistricting) have an easy 260 if the greenies go dem. They win in a landslide if Florida greens come out. Kerry isn't going to get the greens. But general voting democrats will vote for whoever is on the ticket. Its the blue-state red-state thing.

[jsw_81]

49. You simply don't understand electoral politics

If we waste our time appealing to Greens and other disgruntled leftists, we'll alienate the broad middle that actually elects presidents. We need the center to win, not the fringe left.

[Rolling Titanic]

52. Here's my electoral politics analysis

Which one of the Democrat states is going to go Republican this time to make Florida unnecessary? If the Boy King had lost Florida he would have lost the whole thing.

In the 2000 election only 7 states were even close (less that 5% difference). Of those states Bush won two and Gore won 5.

Lets look at the states Bush won. Florida he won by less than 1000 votes. Nader won 97,000 votes. Guess what. He's not running this time. If those Naderites vote democrat and if the all the not close states stay the same, * loses.

But the democrat doesn't really need Florida if he could get New Hampshire and one other small state. What happened there? * won by 1% in NH. Nader got 4% and Browne got 1%. If Nader's voters go democrat New Hampshire does too. NH 4 electoral votes go to us.

But you say that Gore states were close too and Bush might pick some of them up if we don't appeal to centrists. Not likely. In Oregon Nader got 6% and in Wisc. Nader got 4%. Minnesota, Nader gets 5%. If those go to the democrats, Minnesota is not even close. Democrats are likely to keep those.

In New Mexico, Nader got 4%. If they turn out the Democrats Keep it too. How many people would have voted Browne or Buchanan, but voted Bush because the race were not so close? I'd say enough to turn the statistical tie in NM squarely in favor of the democrat, especially when you add the Naderites to the democrats. In Iowa, much the same with Gore winning by 1% and the Naderites' 2% he up to 51% to 48%

Here's where you can find the raw numbers for what I write above.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/results/

[Born_a_Democrat]

21. I don't think we have much of a choice anymore

1. Dean has the best angle on energizing the party but he does not appear electable (and if his campaign can't even take a sparring match within his own party then he won't be able to sustain the full brunt of the Republican blitzkrieg)


2. Edwards is not experienced enough... (and has no "name" to back him up like the boy blunder)


3. Clark has "no" political experience and entered the game a bit late. His wafling answers on certain questions (while understandable due to the stress of running for president and his political inexperience in avoiding loaded questions) leave him open to Republican attacks of not knowing which side he's on (not to mention his past votes for Republican presidents)...


4. Kucinich and Sharpton??...Well...let's be honest...the words "fart" and "wind" immediately come to mind...


so who have we got left...?? Kerry...

I am not a Kerry fan nor was I ever...I liked Dean...but I have come to believe that although I might think voting for him is a good idea...the rest of America might not.

[Rolling Titanic]

35. Plus keep in mind that alot of

conservatives hate Bush too. They are saying Anybody But Bush in 2004. They (I've been spying }() like Dean. Seems they want to spite all the Bush sycophants. Go look at freepugs if you doubt it. There's a war going on there. If we can get them to stay home and bring out the democratic base + new voters + greens it won't be close. But with Kerry. I don't see the Deaniacs or greenies coming out for him.

[jsw_81]

26. Oh please

John Kerry is only 60; Dole was 73 when he ran -- older than Reagan in '84. Plus Dole was running against a young, charismatic genius (Clinton) who was presiding over unprecedented peace and prosperity. Bush, on the other hand, is a clueless idiot who's presiding over war, recession, scandal, and skyrocketing unemployment. To make matters worse, his conservative base is angry and disillusioned because of the immigration issue and Bush's wild spending spree in Congress. If you can put your silly sour grapes aside for a moment, you'd see that we have an excellent chance of winning this thing.

[Sandpiper]

37. Kerry is an old boring man of 60

Bush on the other hand is a young, energetic man of...57

Bob Dole was old enough to be Bill Clinton's father. The age comparison with Kerry is spurious at best.

[CWebster]

27. bob dole was funnier. nt

[Cocoa]

29. old and boring don't matter to me

not one bit. I hear the whores on TV talk about stuff like this and I feel they degrade our politics.

Luckily, it seems I'm not alone, the voters are not as dumbed-down as some people want to believe.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Dole tried to KILL SS and Medicare long ago

That had far more to do with his loss than his stale military record and he was running against a very charismatic opponent.

[TucsonGreen]

33. Kerry LOSES the Personality race

...and therefore the presidency. And four more years of Bush. Don't get me wrong...I like his positions as much as the other front runners. He's better than most. BUT HE'S STIFF AS A BOARD. Dukakis II. And when the Dems nominate him, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot.

Unfortunately in this country, the Presidential race is also a popularity contest. Scads of voters cast their ballot based on who they "like" personally. In every Presidential race of my 27 years on this planet, THE MORE CHARISMATIC CANDIDATE HAS WON. If you can't convince Joe and Jane normal that you're someone they'd want to be friends with, you lose. And there's nothing I've seen from the Kerry camp that will portray him as anything other than a stuck-up rich liberal from New England.

There was an (obviously) leaked story on the wires the other day about how the White House is "scared" of Kerry. It practically read like this:

"Oh, we're really scared of Kerry. (wink, wink) I mean, he's got us shaking in our shoes (nudge, nudge). Oh please, don't nominate John Kerry (chuckle)."

Kerry is Bush's wet dream. Unless he gets a serious image makeover, Bush will plow right over him. I wish issues mattered in this country. I wish Kerry could get the people's votes just because he has positions that will help people more than Bush's will. But my experience is that it's the charisma, stupid. And John Kerry has none.

[Eurobabe]

43. Saw them all last week

Gotta agree. Kerry is terribly boring, and does not inspire me at all. Nothing will change, and I fear we will lose in November with Kerry behind the wheel.

It's not just me either, there are alot of party insiders here in Central VA who have the same thoughts about JK.

[NV1962]

44. Yup... Well put. - n/t

[TexasPatriot]

45. What Superbowl ad will Kerry be doing next year...

cause i got a bad feeling he's gonna be hawkin Tostitos.

[PAMod]

51. Hey, that's not very nice. At least the Repubs won't use that. eom

[Justice]

53. This is Not Helpful

Kerry is not my first choice, and I have issues with the way he has behaved, but this is ridiculous.

[NV1962]

54. Since Kerry

announces he's going to "restore the truth" he should get used to hearing the truth more often: he's one heck of a Concorde flight to nowhere.

It's very fast, very pampered, and very passé, too.

[rucky]

55. Carrot Top Isn't Boring

just a thought

[killbotfactory]

60. Yep

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think he'll win the GE.

[Lexingtonian]

62. funny

It's not like they worry me, but must all the Republican talking points on Kerry be parroted around here? Can't any of the my-guy-is-going-down-in-flames folks at least think up a sharper point, a better distinction, without conservative bias before posting it here? Weren't all you folks the ones upset about all the "Gore-ing" going on in the media, and now there's evidently nothing else to do but to engage in it yourselves?

I don't expect purity from hypocrisy, but weren't most of you folks arguing Kerry was too much of a Republican just a few weeks and months ago?

This is the part that matters:
Newsweek: Kerry 49, Bush 46
Rasmussen: Kerry 46, Bush 45

The more I see of these post-Iowa anti-Kerry threads, the more I'm reminded of speed addicts I used to know trying to go off the stuff but on the verge of relapsing. They crave and are enslaved to their high, cognitively they do know the stuff is killing off their lives, and so they rage against reality and reason, tell any lie as long as it could serve their purpose, as they beg and search for another fix.

[Moderator]

64. Locking.....

1. If you start a thread in this forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. The moderators have the sole authority to decide whether a thread topic is inflammatory.


DU Moderator