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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:40 PM
Original message
"Searching for Bush's Jesus"
Village Voice
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0552,topp,71298,6.html

Searching for Bush's Jesus
Laid in a manger, abridged in the White House

by Sylvia Topp
December 23rd, 2005 5:33 PM

I walked out of my Anglican-church confirmation classes when I was 13, thinking I'd put religion out of my life for good, because the "devout" Christians I was being counseled by couldn't hide the hate in their eyes. Still, because I do admire much of Jesus's teachings, I've been angry at George Bush for a long time for claiming to be a follower of Jesus while doing so many things that He would surely have disapproved of. So recently, blessed with many lazy beach hours on the island of Tortola, I decided the time had come to challenge Bush's version of Christianity. It was a deliciously ironic coincidence that back in the late '70s and early '80s, when Bush was just married and way before Christ had "changed" his heart, he would jog along this very beach on Sundays, heading from his friends' house to the tiny mustard-colored Methodist church, with its simple wooden cross propped at the pinnacle of its gabled roof, way at the other end of town.

I recently talked on the phone with the pastor who served there at the time. He claims no memory of George, though you'd think an exuberant white guy would have been painfully obvious sitting among the local little girls, in the same starched and frilly white dresses I wore at their age, the age when little girls want to go to church. Others in the area do remember his visits to Tortola but they are considerately silent, meaning of course that there's lots to tell. Perhaps Bush attended his first Methodist service there, after switching to Laura's religion, though if he'd taken a little more care he'd have discovered that Methodists are proudly anti-war, and indeed church bishops met with him early in 2003 to try to talk him out of going to Iraq. Maybe Bush told them to check their Bibles more closely. Indeed, since the ruins of Babylon, a biblically wicked city, are in Iraq, and since Bush feels that he's been chosen "to do the Lord's will" and that his election was "another manifestation of divine purpose," we may soon hear yet another justification for this war: the United States is engaging in the final battle between Good and Evil.

Since Bush famously claims Christ as his favorite philosopher, and since I distinctly remembered Jesus being a gentle man who preached endlessly about helping the poor, honoring little children, and the impossibility of the rich getting into heaven, along with blessing those who mourn and promising that the meek shall inherit the earth, I decided to spend some of my beach hours re-reading the copy of the New Testament that a Methodist church member kindly lent me, looking for perhaps long-forgotten verses that Bush might approve of. Of course, brilliant biblical scholars have long been busy exploring the contradictions between the teachings of Jesus and the actions of Bush and other Evangelical Christians, and there's a lot of fascinating literature out there. But my concern is more as an ordinary person who was taught as a child that one of the most important lessons of the Bible is to treat others as I would want to be treated myself. So when the debate monitor followed up Bush's "Christ" answer with a suggestion that he elaborate, and Bush said, "If you don't understand, it's hard to explain," I was really surprised. Even a biblical literalist, if that's what Bush is, could easily have found example after example of Jesus's caring philosophy. He could have cited, for example, his agreement with Jesus's very admirable acceptance of women as equals.

Now, if Bush had just stuck with God as his savior, instead of specifically naming Jesus, I wouldn't have been so upset, since he, of course, could find anything he wanted in the Old Testament. He clearly prefers the Ten Commandments to the Eight Beatitudes, but, as I discovered, Jesus was consciously transforming some Old Testament teachings. In the Gospel According to St. Matthew, Jesus says clearly: "Ye may have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever should smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also" (5:38-39), as well as "Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you" (5:43-44). And just to top it off, "For if you love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same?" (5:46). Clearly Jesus had his own agenda. He is definitely one of history's great social reformers, in a class with Gandhi and Martin Luther King, and for the most part he appears much closer to a pacifist communist (which most Christians will never acknowledge) than a stock-market gambler.
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handsignals4theblind Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. Intelligent design- full of wholes -pseudo science
--Evolution is a tested theory whose hypothesis has been well tested in the last 150 - years---I.D does not belong in a science class--besides how many bad designs and flaws does an omnipotent , all knowing being perfect being have to make before you can see the self contradiction.

Bible thumpers and Bush are going to have to grow up and admit their literal, simplistic black and white view of the world is out dated!illegal codesmilie_remote('O8)')
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handsignals4theblind Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. HOLEs-not wholes- put food on your family"
---oops did a Bushism there!:freak:
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. your forgiven n/t
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. YOU'RE forgiven too
:D
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. thank you...
oops!!
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amitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kick for the bozos who think they're Christian, but rail against
every last one of Christ's teachings. They have his message upside-down.
They approve of everything he said to avoid. They put their warped patriotism above their own God.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Amen!!
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The Icon Painter Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. OTP
Bush and his like are not xians. They are Old Testament Paulists - the followers of a religion made up of the bloodier bits from the Old Testament and the more bigoted preachings of Paul of Tarsus. They have managed to completely avoid including any of the lessons taught by the gentle rabbi from Nazareth whom they claim to worship. In truth, they soil the name of their putative g-d and saviour with every word they speak and every vicious act they endorse. In their hatred, they kill their redeemer daily. Do not call them xians, they are unfit to use the word, indeed they are unfit to touch the hem of the garments of moral and ethical atheists. They are vile creatures, whited sepulchers, hypocrites who are destined for the place they have prepared for their enemies.

Incidentally, I am a non-believer and I pity the true xians who have to share a designation with these monsters.
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NoFederales Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. Perhaps * aspires to become a god of wrath--but then why does he need
all that "swaddling" to protect and insulate himself? The world will not long survive if we cannot get beyond religion.

Best regards,

NoFederales
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Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yeah exactly
Ok I admit I go to a Southern Baptist Church in Portland Oregon where I am deeply involved. Why you might ask?

It is my best way to be influential even to an organization I ultimately disagree with. I take pride in the fact that I influence the church as much as it influences me. If they compromise I will.

At Best Bush is a failed Christian Completely unredeemable and listening to the devil as his envoy. He resembles the delusion of Hitler frighteningly well.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. I'm not criticizing your church, flabbergasted
I will never criticize a church I've never attended or an idea I've never investigated in depth. Recently, however, I did attend services at an evangelical Southern Baptist Church, here in Alabama to show I was open to new ideas. If I intend to open minds, here in the Bible-belt, I must at least appear to have an open mind myself. With all the emphasis that minister placed on the devil, it seemed like spiritual dualism to me. In addition, the guy kept taking scripture out of context and then lacing it back together in a way that put forth his political agenda. I seriously doubt Jesus would endorse the agenda he advocated. I don't know how Southern Baptist Churches are in Portland but down here, in the deep south, some are pretty spooky. By the way, I am also a Christian, who usually attends services at the Unitarian Universalist Church, where Pagans and Secularists worship along-side open minded Christians and are truly welcome. The U.U. Church reminds me of the Democratic Party to a degree. Everyone has different views on religion. The only thing we seem to agree on is that the Bush approach is a hideous abuse of religion and the Constitution.
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Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I forget the context of my message
But I didn't have the feeling I was being critisized. I have never attended church in the South but I can imagine the churches down there.

I am saying that is really ironic for me to attend a S.B. church because I am extremely critical of them. But politics never play a role in the church I go to ao it works. Ultimately I tithe and part of this ends up in the S.B. convention. However I still am more influential on the church as a whole being extremely critical of Bush's administration than someone that refuses to open their mind.

I appreciate you being open and I respect all religions.

Thanks.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
30. You're welcome here in Alabama
These Baptist Churches sure need a positive influence :-)
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. You know, Methodists aren't Evangelicals
At least the ones I know, and I was raised in that church and active in its affairs until I left in the mid '80s. And Methodism that I learned taught that we couldn't be sure of the exact nature of Jesus-was he a great man, a bridge to God because He was really like us, or truly something different, as Son, to which we could never obtain. I have never in my life heard a Methodist call Jesus God-there was always a distinction between Father and Son. So whatever god Bush worships, it's not the one taught in the Methodist catachism.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. As a child...
I also attended Methodist Church. I know for sure, in the Methodist system, Jesus is Christ and one of the triadic representations of God... In essence, Jesus is God to Methodists, not a "great man" or a "bridge to God." I'm not saying that the Methodist Sunday-school teacher you had in youth didn't say the things you post but I am saying the Methodist main-stream doesn't support the ideas you posted on this board. Check online, you'll see what I mean.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Interesting
because I obtained that teaching not from a Sunday School teacher but from the senior pastor of my church. The church in question was several thousand strong, and one of the biggest in my area, so the job of minister was one that was coveted, and also one that required a certain amount of credentials to obtain (my pastor had a DD after his name). One of the associate pastors wasn't as liberal in his thought as the senior pastor, but I still don't recall EVER being taught that Jesus was God-merely that He was part of the Trinity. When I encountered some evangelicals who said Jesus was God, I felt physical revulsion, in fact. But what I'm thinking is that the Methodist Church has changed a great deal since I was a child. I know when my mother moved to Florida after she retired, she couldn't stand the Methodist Church and went to the Unitarian Church instead. And hey, I left the church and became a Sufi initiate.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. as far as i know...
Methodists are Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity.


















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priller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. But that's what the Trinity is -- The Father, Son and Spirit -- all God.
The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three Gods, but one. It's a great mystery.

"God in three persons, blessed Trinity". From the old hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy".

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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. while that song sums it up pretty well
Here is a brief history of Trinitarian evolution:

The Trinity arose from debate at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE. Historian and Christian Father Hermias Sozomen describes resolution of the Arian Heresy, addressed at the Council by writing, “The emperor punished Arius with exile, denouncing him and his adherents as ungodly, and commanding that their books should be destroyed.” According to Sozomen, in his text Ecclesiastical History, Arian doctrine offers that there was a period when Christ “existed not; that, as possessing free will, He was capable of vice and virtue.” Trinity is God, according to the teachings of most modern Christian churches. In mainstream doctrine, God is a single being, existing simultaneously as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Nicene Creed represents formalization of an original doctrine that uses "homoousia" which in Greek means of same substance. Spelling differs by one letter in "homoiousia" a Greek term for of similar substance. Historically, the Trinitarian view emerges as an article of faith at Nicea and then evolves into the Athanasian Creed. In 500 CE, to standardize the belief in the face of renewed disagreements, the more explicit Athanasian Creed, which brings “Holy Spirit” into Trinity, also became integral in the belief system. Affirmation by the Roman Catholic Church led most modern Protestant denominations, including the Methodists, to retain the creeds in some form.

Doubts concerning Trinity are not easy to relieve in Scripture. Evidence from the Gospels culminates in the baptismal commission of Matthew, while arising from narratives of the Evangelists, which claim that Christ made the idea known to the Disciples gradually. First, He taught them to recognize the Eternal Son of God. Then, as the ministry ended, He promised that the Father would send the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally, after resurrection, He reveals the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 28:19. The only decisive element is that Father, Son and Holy Spirit connect to each other with "and," giving them equal significance. The Bible never plainly states the Holy Trinity represents a unified entity. The Nicene Creed, which opens most Methodist services is clear, stating, “We believe in one God... Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.”
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Contrary1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
8. Dems should have used this one on '04:
"...it might be an intelligent new approach for those running in 2006 against Bush's policies to point out that a true New Testament literalist would automatically provide health care and decent wages for everyone."
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
32. Contrary1
I whole-heartedly agree with your posting and believe that's exactly the approach that will sway this evangelical/ fundamentalist base. I frankly wish people would stop confusing some of their notions with Christianity. While it will not sway the masses, Christianity theologically conflicts with a capitalistic way of life.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. twisted thug logic...
give to the rich and they will donate to charity to help the poor. what a joke.
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unsavedtrash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. a while back I heard someone say they were a "Bush Christian." Scared the
hell out of me.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. A what?
that is scary!!
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
14. Bush's Christianity isn't a religion . . . it's a strategy . . . n/t
.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Not just strategy - packaging - reedemed sinner instead of weakling
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 11:40 AM by robbedvoter
utter failure, prone to every addiction on the planet and never taking responsibility for anything or anyone. How to endear this to morans? Why, he was saved, of course. Found jebus - and now all's well!
For other candidates is tie colors or hair cuts or maybe a bit of Southern drawl. But W needed a lot of packaging as the turd inside could not have smelled any better with just ties or phony texas accents and hats. He needed a miracle, he needed God, and Kkkarl gave it to him!
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. funny how...
with all the spinning he still doesn't come off as a Christian. his actions say otherwise.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. To people who look at the actions. Unfortunately many can't see
past the shiny packaging.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. sad, but true n/t
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priller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. "By their fruits shall you judge them."
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 07:26 PM by priller
Another fine saying of Jesus. Basically, if a person's actions (the "fruit" of his labor) don't follow Jesus' example, he's not a Christian. Clearly, then, Bush is not a Christian.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. yes
I agree... Do you ever wonder why Bush regularly goes to the ranch to "clear away brush?" I say it's as Jesus said in Luke 6:43 and 44.

"For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

He's confussed and looking for figs or grapes in those brambles. I say "Know the Bush by his fruit!"
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. i hope he comes out
covered with thorns.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
18. "If you don't understand, it's hard to explain," said Bush.
What could be more plain than that? I guess he could have said "Since I don't understand, I can't explain." But Bush has trouble getting the word "I" and something non-positive in a sentence.
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. I might have asked the Chimp...
how I can understand a thing UNTIL it's been explained. That probably wouldn't convey whatever gibberish he was trying and failing to spout. Face it, the man is an idiot. A hypocritical idiot, and a liar, at that. Try asking an avid gardener how to design a garden, and have them tell you that if you don't already understand how, they can't explain it to you.
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. yeah, like he knows...
what he's talking about. someone tries to tell him and he tries to repeat it.
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