It's the warrant, stupid

[DoYouEverWonder]

That is the only reason why this BushCo spying on Americans story is so important.

The only reason to not get a FISA warrant was because they wanted to do things that are illegal and that they knew they could never get any court to allow. No one in this country, not even the president, is allowed to cast large nets over everyone's data and then sort through it in order to select targets. And who are these targets? BushCo claims they were only going after terrorists but knowing their corruption, I doubt they could avoid the temptation of looking at their other 'enemies' like you and me. If BushCo want to investigate legitimate targets then there was no one that would have stopped them from doing it legally. The argument is not whether or not BushCo should be able to spy on terrorists, it is the fact that they have admitted to spying on their fellow Americans and that is clearly against the law. Especially if the spying was for political purposes.

No one in this country should be above the law, not even the president.

It's the warrant, stupid.

[babylonsister]

1. Add to that their own guys, Comey and Ashcroft,

who would not be swayed by bullying, even from the intensive care unit (Ashcroft) because they knew it was illegal.
The spin is incredible; the crime is obvious.

[ET Awful]

2. Yup, and the law allows them to get a warrant 72 hours AFTER they

start eavesdropping. Saying they didn't have time is no excuse.

[rodeodance]

4. this is a fact that msm leaves out most of the time.

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. Actually, it was 15 days

n/t

[elehhhhna]

7. Nope: It's 15 days AFTER a Declaration of War only.

[bluethruandthru]

3. You are exactly right

and that's what we need to focus on. The only reason bush didn't get a warrant was because he knew what he was doing was wrong. I'm tired of hearing how he can do whatever he wants to catch the "bad guys" (gawd I'm sick of how he talks to the public like we're children!). The truth is if he truly wanted to eavesdrop on "bad guys"..the FISA court would okay it. He obviously wants to hide who he is spying on.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

6. well, the B** plan HAS been working, though. There has not been

a terrorist threat alert (besides cyber) since 3 months before the November 2004 selection. There were many before this date.

So, one can assume that B** plan has worked ! No more terror problems in US. :sarcasm:

[endarkenment]

8. Precisely correct.

The fact that they could not get permission from FISA for what they wanted to do indicates that they have performed broad monitoring of americans - not wiretaps on individuals - monitoring of all communications from essentially everyone. It is indeed the warrant.

[salin]

9. Moreoever, I think that it isn't the first "search"

as in the "US person in communication with a foreign person" that they are trying to prevent being reviewed by a judge. FISA court actions suggest that they are pretty lenient. I think it is ALL of the exponential searches/serviellances that occur as a result of the first one (that is - potentially of each and every american who has a single conversation with the first person) that they don't want subject to judicial review. Massive fishing expedition subject to extreme abuse of power (as in: creation of huge 'enemies lists'.)

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Are you saying it's like a tree, spreading from the first contact?

Person A has a monitored communication overseas -- tapping is potentially problematic but, by stretching the definitions, justifiable. But Person A is also in contact with Persons B, C, D, and may be a conduit of information from them to overseas, so Persons B, C, and D are also tapped -- a clear violation of the law. Those taps spread to E, F, G, (from B); H, I, J, (from C); and so on.

Where does it stop? By six degrees, how long before Kevin Bacon winds up in Gitmo?

[endarkenment]

12. I personally don't believe the 'international' part at all.

Echelon has been operational for international communications for quite some time. They already had that data. I think Bush turned Echelon on for domestic communications - and that means that they are monitoring everyone.

[salin]

13. don't think there even needs to be suspicion of b,c and d being a possible

conduit for overseas communication. Their language allows them to "look for patterns of behavior" - and thus look at anything and anyone connected for "patterns of communication." Yes then B,c,d and e could trigger surveillences of persons q, r and s and so on. It is doubtful that anyof these would be cool for warrents via FISA - as they stray far beyond the initial communication - hence - don't go to FISA in the first place.

Don't think they are looking to arrest persons b through s, but that perhaps they will "get lucky" with person v, and moreover they will be able to collect and analyze huge amounts of data for a variety of reasons (think: enemies lists... data bases to sell corporations, etc.) none of which have anything to do with National Security. Hence the importance to keep the program out of the light of day.

[displacedtexan]

10. Warrant = Paper Trail

BushCo is famous for avoiding paper trails at all costs!

[ddeclue]

14. NSA Wireless.. Can they hear you now? How about now? (An ad parody)

Here's the full size version suitable for wallpaper..


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2346815

Doug De Clue
Orlando, FL