Spent this weekend reading Mark Crispin Miller's Fooled Again...

[LeftNYC]

and it scared the bejeezus out of me. As if I didnt know enough, I now know that this country is being taken over(has been taken over)by thugs and that we dont really have any sort of opposition party that will stand up. I am scared shitless.

[iconoclastNYC]

1. What did you know/think before you read it?

Did someone loan it to you or did you seek it out?

I was most dissapointed that he didn't go more into the statistical evidence of fraud (which was all that it for Ukraine's citizens to get out into the streets and successfully demand a new election)

[PATRICK]

2. Don't forget

the Ukraine was advised and given plans and material support to do just that by both American political parties. One certainly can't forgive the nutty blindness and stupidity of the Dems, all too happy to cynically(teehee) plot against another nation by using democratic principles utterly denied in their OWN elections. Hurray for American propping up of Ukrainian grass roots that some of the same Dem leaders so often whine about back here. So denied they can't even see, can't even imagine, the insane irony and insult. That is a big one in my craw.

[blm]

3. The Ukraine protests were abetted by BushInc who wanted the opposition in.

They had the media to foster that protest.

The problem in this country is that the media exists now to protect BushInc and to tear down and marginalize anyone who gets in his way. They will NOT report the truth about machine fraud, no matter what.

See how much publicity the hack in Florida received even in a public demonstration of a rigged machine? Hardly anyone in this country even knows it happened.

As citizens we need to expose the GOP control of the media and the voting machines. I don't think the people will be thrilled to know the truth about either.

[iconoclastNYC]

5. Yup.

but we can all be the media. Lets get every copy of Fooled Again read 10-20x

I'm planning on doing a "Documentary Night" at my house Jan-Feb....i'm goign to expose peopel to the great liberal leaning documentaries that came out in 2005.

We can be the media. We have more credibility to our friends then Fox News/MSNBC/NBC et all all have combined. We have the power to take our country back.

[pat_k]

18. This is how we win. One Neighbor at a Time! n/t

[tatertop]

4. This is probably ALL we should be talking about at this time

Thank you for bringing this up.
I have leafed through the book.
It leaves one scared and angry.
More angry than scared.

[jobycom]

7. Not ALL

We still have Congresscritters who can affect, however mildly, policy and direction, and we can still hope that BushCo's crimes will touch a level of outrage that will force him to yield on some issues. We have won minor victories, such as ANWR. So it's still important, very important, to focus on issues and what we can do, and keep the pressure on Bush. If nothing else, we can at least force them to cheat more flagrantly. The more they cheat, the more they risk getting exposed.

[tatertop]

8. I think 70% of our effort should be put toward this at this time

If we cannot vote it does not matter what they do or do to us.
Not at all. We are currently without recourse.

We will beat them in a fair election.
But time is running out.

[iconoclastNYC]

10. Don't you think tho....

That the longer they go, the more they are going to have to cheat?

I think there is a rising consciousness of this issue among the non-beltway democrats and a good share of the independent bloc that something is amiss with this country and with voting.

I think a lot of the country really had a WTF moment after 2004, and I don't think that people are just going to give up...I think as time goes on the Republicans are going to have to steal more and more elections and get sloppy and it will be revealed.

I think our long term prospects are good....Demographics are on our side. The Bush economic legacy is going to make politics personal for a lot more people (unfortunately.) So i really do think the Republicans are going to have to get a lot more brazen in the way they cheat and so it the Enron election accounting schemes will be revealed.

I think that Voting Protection is a local issue that the local parties should devote 50% of thier time on, but I don't think we should nationalize the issue.

[tatertop]

11. I politely disagree

Most people I talk to have no idea what the hell is
going on. Bush and his buddies are bold and brazen
and their eye is only on the prize.
If we do not actively stop them they will cheat again.
And once again, I fear we will very politely allow them to get away with it.
Look at the last five years.

Bush and his pals have taken almost total control.
We cannot allow this pendulum to swing too much farther
to the right before we are marginalized out of existence.
If we want to see just how evil Bush can be, let them steal a few more seats in Congress (that evil bastard Saxby comes to mind).

I would like to see this issue nationalized immediately.

[iconoclastNYC]

16. First of all

I agree that it's a huge issue but we have better issues to nationalize (Culture of Corruption)

This issue is very hard to explain and we're easily dismissed as wild-eye conspiracies theorists. The reason they use this tactic us on us is because it's effective. It's also hard to get any traction in the media because the media types think that this issue will decrease turn out (and the DNC thinks this too). Low turn out elections are easier to steal.

So what I'm saying is fly under the radar...fight it on a state by state basis which is much easier....when we build the critical mass then we go national with it.

And meanwhile because the Republicans are destroying themselves they're going to errode thier support, and have to cheat even more brazenly and they'll get caught eventually.

ONE LAST THING. Don't buy the MSM propoganda of the invinsible BUSH-DELAY-CHENEY-FIRST machine, they fancy themselves super slick fascists but they are actually very sloppy. If we had a real media they'd be gone by now, but they mess up so much that even the corrupt media can't cover everything up for them.

They are vulnerable.

[jobycom]

12. I half agree

I'm not saying it's not an important issue, but you're overstating it a tad. Elections are local, and for either party to steal an election, they have to gain access to the local machinery, either at counting or casting the votes. To effect local elections, ranging from US Rep on down, they have to rig local outcomes. That's harder than it sounds, since the local party in charge controls the voting machinery. If you have a Democratic district, and suddenly the votes come out Republican, the local Dems will investigate. Same with a Repub district. So only in close districts can they steal local elections.

Statewide, and especially national elections (which means president and VP only), it is easier, because they can spread their vote tampering out over many districts, so that the outcome doesn't look as anomolous. But even there, the results have to be somewhat in line with what's expected. If a blue state suddenly goes red, against all polling data, then the blue officials who run the state will investigate.

Contrary to common opinion, even the electronic machines leave a trail. In order to rig the numbers successfully, one of three things has to happen. Either the vote has to be changed when it is recorded in the machine, or the counting machine has to count the opposite of what it reads, or the machines have to make up votes. In the first two cases, some formula has to be used to change that vote, and that formula will have to be based on numbers (flip every fifth Dem vote, for instance). If the vote is flipped only on the counting machine, then the casting machine will show a different reading. If it is flipped on the casting machine, then a full test of a dry run election will catch it. In other words, if the machines are rigged, careful testing will reveal that, even without a paper trail or reading the codes. Which means that in a state where one party is solidly in control, the other party can't cheat without fear of getting caught. As for adding votes, there are signed records to keep track of that type of cheating, but that type has been the easiest with paper ballots, as well.

So the cheating will mostly occur in close states and at the statewide level. Cheating in safe districts won't change local elections, though they can pad the numbers in a statewide race, as we saw in Florida in 2000. But cheating in those districts happens without BBVs--LBJ cheated with plan old paper ballots in Texas (so did Cuellar in 2004).

So there is a lot of reason to not give up on all other issues. They can't control all districts, and the more we show Bush as corrupt, or the Republicans as bad on certain issues, the more we have a chance of winning more local elections. More local reps, including US Reps, gives us a better chance of affecting legislation, including voting reform.

[tatertop]

13. I guess we will find out soon enough

[LeftNYC]

14. I agree. This is the most important issue.

If GOP operatives can remove votes, change votes, bully voters, etc. etc. then our entire democracy is a failure.

Miller doesnt present a lot of statistical evidence and much of it is a review of the Conyers document on Ohio, but he basically says that Kerry was so far ahead of Bush in Ohio that it was a "miracle" Bush won.

The problem is Democrats too. Being afraid to look like a wacko. He makes a good point in the book too. For someone to be as far left as Dick Cheney is far right, they would have to be an gunslinging outlaw in the mountains of Peru.

[tatertop]

15. They only have to cheat enough... to win

[pat_k]

19. Fighting for our right to have confidence in our elections is JOB 1

And we need to get the good government groups on "our side" to get on the "no more stolen elections" bandwagon.

Gore Won. Kerry Won. These truths destroy Bush's legitimacy. These truths strengthen our efforts to purge these people and their corrupt policies from our Governement for once and for all. Impeachment for the abuses of power -- power Bush and Cheney never held legitimately -- will be a given as the nation faces the truth about the last two elections.

A vast majority of the organizations like the Center for American Progress or the National Priorities Project fail to include trustworthy elections as a priority. I've never seen trustworthy elections on any of those "What is most important to you" polls."

This is insanity. And we won't change if we don't make No More Stolen Elections and Impeach Them our top priorities.

We must stop pretending these people are legitimate. When we work to influence their policies, we are supporting the fantasy of legitimacy. We cannot move forward until we have restored legitimate authority.

It is imperative that every organization fighting for us on other fronts include the fight for Trustworthy Elections. They are in desparate need of an "intervention" to break through denial that our last two elections were stolen. If you care about preserving the consent of the governed – our founding principle – please call, write, and fax the ACLU and other organizations that are failing to fight for voter rights. Take a look and see if the organizations you support have joined the fight. If they haven’t, make some noise.

Related Post: http://tabletalk.salon.com/webx?14@@.773a529d/2575

[pat_k]

20. And...

If Democrats and Progressive organizations embrace the fight for free and fair elections, it could become their core value and message – i.e., Democrats believe in Democracy. Pure and simple. When accused of having no “core”, we can say, BS. We believe we do a better job of solving our problems when more citizens participate in shaping the agenda. We believe that every citizen must have an equal opportunity to cast their vote and have that accurately and transparently counted.

It is really very simple. We don't need long and detailed policy statements. We don't need to focus program specific. We need to focus on giving people a voice so we can implement the programs that serve their interests and reflect our American values. We make the broad case, and the details will follow with popular support.

[jobycom]

6. That's pretty scared

Maybe try a laxative... :shrug:

Seriously, though, thanks for the recommendation. I want to read it, but haven't gotten it yet. Could you give a review? Is his evidence sound? How broad ranging are his findings? Miller usually seems to be good with evidence, which is why I want to see what he has to say on thios topic. There's a lot of speculation on what might have happened based upon incriminating actions by Repub operatives, but I haven't seen enough discussion of hard evidence. I'm hoping MCM provides that.

[Doctor_J]

9. Too sad and frightening for me to read

I have still have a shred of hope left that the Republic is still alive. That book would finish me off.

[pat_k]

17. If you can, buy three copies and drop off at local Congresscritters office

This goes for anyone who can afford it. Buy three copies and deliver to your Senators and Rep. If you can, deliver the books in person at the local offices, but if the only way you can do it is via mail, that's fine (but note, snail mail will be delayed by screening processes).

Call on them to have the guts to break through their denial and face the truth. The facts speak for themselves. Gore Won in 2000. Kerry Won in 2004. Bush has no legitimacy and is abusing power without our consent.

It doesn't matter whether your members of Congress are Republicans or Democrats. They all need to hear from us.